Facing the Loaded Gun
Bond44
Vauxhall CrossPosts: 1,581MI6 Agent
So to set some context for this thread.....
A few on this lovely site started swinging the lamp and telling of our experiences with other people with firearms and we somewhat hijacked another thread so we thought time to start a specific thread, here goes!
One personal experience others to follow......
Once had an officer load and make ready and I noticed he was not wearing his ear defence they were on his head but behind his ears. I said stop put on your ear defence he did no more than put his hands to his ear defence (with said pistol made ready now facing me) and pulled them onto his ears and carried on firing. Needless to say I let him finish the shoot and gave him a swift debrief while holding him by the throat thereafter. In his defence he was mortified at his unthinking moment. Rest of the range staff were wetting themselves!
Some might be thinking so what - issue was it was a Glock and his finger was on the trigger! So you may ask - simple the safety catch per say is in the trigger so it's safe unless you have your finger or pressure on the trigger then it's one small tug to bangsville. See below
Cheers :007)
A few on this lovely site started swinging the lamp and telling of our experiences with other people with firearms and we somewhat hijacked another thread so we thought time to start a specific thread, here goes!
One personal experience others to follow......
Once had an officer load and make ready and I noticed he was not wearing his ear defence they were on his head but behind his ears. I said stop put on your ear defence he did no more than put his hands to his ear defence (with said pistol made ready now facing me) and pulled them onto his ears and carried on firing. Needless to say I let him finish the shoot and gave him a swift debrief while holding him by the throat thereafter. In his defence he was mortified at his unthinking moment. Rest of the range staff were wetting themselves!
Some might be thinking so what - issue was it was a Glock and his finger was on the trigger! So you may ask - simple the safety catch per say is in the trigger so it's safe unless you have your finger or pressure on the trigger then it's one small tug to bangsville. See below
Cheers :007)
My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
Comments
I think we should point out Bond44 that this thread is not intended to glorify guns or support any side of a gun law or nsa debate?
Some of us have an honest interest and some have legitimate military or law enforcement pasts and presents and as bond uses all kinds of firearms it's nice to have a thread to discuss these things with like minded people, just as it is watches, cars or clothing.
I may be wrong 24 but I assume you hunt with guns over in Norway? I used to pheasant and partridge shoot, I've had a couple of near misses on those, in fact I was once hit under the eye by a bit of shot which ricocheted off a tree it only went just under the skin but I couldn't work out the fire the shooter had taken so couldn't blame anyone.
On a different shoot while beating for partridge a retired police inspector attempted to shoot a brace of partridge but pulled both barrels in quick succession.....
Towards the beaters, naturally I shouted an warning amd dropped with my back to the gun, fortunately it was from a great enough distance that all I felt was shot bouncing off my Barbour...I had some choice words for that chap. I was left with the opinion that everyone who ever handles a gun should attend some training before Any licence is granted.
Chris
Absolutely! certainly no glorification of weapons or their use on this thread or the laws covering. Just adults who have experience with weapons, sharing some potentially life changing experiences - and that is all.
Good point though and one that shoudl be highlighted.
Cheers :007)
Inexperienced hunter, pointed a shotgun at us. Then once when The IRA took very our
Home to try and kill a local policeman.
I almost had trainee shoot my thigh off with an assault rifle: "Did you load your rifle with out an order?" "Yes sir, sorry sir, I'll take care of it sir!!!".... BANG!!!! "YOUMOTHERF....R!!!" I was inspecting that everyone had cleaned their rifles before shoot when this happened. The muzzle of that rifle was close enough to my leg that I could really feel the blast. I knew something was amiss since I could see that instead of holding his field stripped rifle in his left hand and the bolt in right hand, he was hastily removing the magazine and I could see cartridges in the feed lips of the mag. I just did not think that he would pull the trigger!!!
I promptly proceeded to punch the idiot on the mouth and would have continued to do so until reaching my personal gratification had I not been restrained by my fellow instructors.
I was told to take the rest of the day off; I went to the barracks, changed to civvies, went to town, got drunk, engaged in loose moral behavior with a previously unacquainted female. (no personal details were changed, as the song goes "we kiss the dames, but we don't ask their names, that's living allright!!")
Next day, hung over both morally and physically, 0630 back at post. Feeling like a
Subsequent hearing to this dangerous, potentially lethal AD concluded the following: 1) regular army NCO who was distributing ammo at that shoot, did so before the weapons inspection was done. This was a gross safety violation. NCO was reprimanded. 2) Safety officer on duty on that shoot failed in his duty, when not noting this violation. SO was reprimanded. 3) Private who acted contary to given and standing orders on: firearms safety, shooting rage safety and proper conduct when on shooting range was given 12 days of hard time. (he later opted to drop out volutarily and switched to civilian service for the reminder of his conscription). 4) Conscript NCOs acting as assistant supervisors failed to note either of the safety violations. They were given oral reprimands ie. "some ear sweets". 5) It was also noted that the Idiot, who acted on his own initiative, felt intimidated by the instructors (yours truly) approach in the matter when realizing his mistake. He claimed panic in the situation and being not able to think straight. He also inquired about a possibility to get compensation for being physically attacked by an instructor (yours truly) he was advised in this matter, but he chose to voluntarily wave this right. Aaaand 6) yours truly was cleared in this matter, for most parts. Older colleagues did advice me that when addressing an idiot who has a loaded weapon and a finger on the trigger, a less voluminous approach can be a safer way to go.
After almost 30 years since the incident, I still do fell like an idiot for not realizing the danger inherent in that situation. Still, it served as a powerful lesson and it has tempered my approach, when I have been faced with uncertain situations.
-Mr Arlington Beech
Interesting story, BTW.
Reality is no matter how much you try and mitigate the only real dangerous thing in the equation is the human. Humans make mistakes it's part of our DNA - some more and worse than others but that is why we train.
73 as you say wisdom comes with age, experience and rank. I deal with similar situations and incidents much differently now to they way I would 30 years ago (a lot less shouting)
You also never forget the first time it goes bang when it shouldn't and that gut wrenching feeling of what's to come - especially if you are the firer! (With the world and his dog watching and waiting)
Anyway back on topic
Cheers :007)
Jaeger battalion, antitank coy. And not an NCO, but a very, and I mean VERY fresh 2ndLtn. You know, the kind that gets bossed around by the senior rank NCOs.....
-Mr Arlington Beech
I think they call it 'officer education' but if you learn they give you the reins to command troops eventually
As for hitting town after the event - Seems to be the SOP (stiff drink always helps calm the nerves) especially when based abroad - such happy memories of the friendly frauleins willing to lend you an ear or two!
Cheers :007)
In the early days I was given command of a sub unit of 3 guys (2 with belt fed weapons) and we were on pre deployment training. Our aim was to attack a rural farm complex with one team attacking and the other giving them covering fire. Usually as you got closer to the enemy you were supposed to get on your knees or belt buckle etc and use the ground as cover but most would chin that off due to effort and it slowed you down favouring a dash for it last minute especially in training even when live firing. On this occasion during live fire conditions though the closing team were on their hands and knees crawling in which I though was really keen 'what a commander' I though he is nails true hero. I had seen them approaching and had told my guys to switch fire to another target (a fence post). The attack completed successfully, the debrief followed.
The commander of the other team came storming back looking somewhat upset nee angry. ‘Who ordered switch fire to that post over there?’ he asked ‘Me, I answered enthusiastically proud of how well my first command appointed had gone’.......... I woke up several minutes later laying on the floor looking at the sodden sky wondering what the hell had hit me. Seems my switch fire target was in front of a dry stone wall! Pretty much every round we had fired (and bear in mind we had belt fed weapons so a few rounds) had hit the wall and ricochet towards the other team giving them a somewhat real attack under fire. The other team commander had made his point, I never did that again…
Cheers :007)
he saw me coming and started to walk away. I shouted for him to stop and to show me the contents of his bag. he turned and faced me answered to the effect did I really want to see what he had in his bag, I said I did. He then pulled out a loaded shawn Off shotgun.
Now unbeknown to me at the time he had built this gun from several guns that he had stolen from clubs/shops all over the UK, and fortunately for me he didn't have the skill to build a trigger. However he had a domestic hammer and he was hitting the hammers of the gun to try and shoot/kill me. I managed to rush him, a fight broke out I got the gun away from him and he pulled the biggest knife I'd ever seen, Rambo style. He tried to stab me again fortunately a decade previously I'd had a great interest in the martial arts and took it seriously for 10 years or so, and got quite good. More by good luck than management I overpowered him and he was arrested.
They found a rape kit in his bag and apparently it was his intention that night to kidnap and rape probably kill a young women.
At his trial in the Number 1 Crown Court in Preston I found out that the forensic people fired the gun under laboratory conditions, and one of the shells had an indentation in it and less than half the width of a human hair from going off, thats how close I was to shuffling off this mortal coil.
He was detained in a psychiatric hospital for 10 years, haven't a clue whats happened to him since. I was awarded £25 out of public funds given a Commendation by the Judge and the Chief Con.
The very next day after the incident I was called into the bosses office me thinking I was getting a pat on the back, no such luck got a bollocking and given advice for not wearing a helmet, whilst escorting said guy back to the nick..... you couldn't make it up!!!
Can't post the guys name for obvious reasons. All I can say is my disillusionment of Her Majesties Police force, I now hang the commendation in my toilet, so I can gaze on it every time I have a number 2.
"Do you expect me to talk? "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"
'Just because nobody complains doesn't mean all parachutes are perfect.'- Benny Hill (1924-1992)
Culmination of our Live Firing training was an attack where we were to advance up a river. Of course it was not that simple we had been sat under a bridge soaking wet for hours waiting for the sun to rise. Could not feel your feet or fingers. Then suddenly we were off like grey hounds, if nothing more than to get some blood pumping we were happy – with Stumpy following up the rear. We got to our exit point from the stream (nee river) a slippery slope which was a bit of a challenge while our colleagues fired us in. We were all pushing and pulling each other up the slope but we made it, fanned out and engaged the enemy. Our instructor said ‘What have you got to engage that bunker?’ it dawned the Anti Tank weapon, knew there was a reason what we had dragged that damn thing around all bloody week. But where the hell is Stumpy? He was at the bottom of the slope like a jack rabbit jumping up and down in the river trying to get out so I was dispatched to go help him. I arrived laid on the floor and threw down an arm to drag him out. He was having problems due to the weight of the Anti Tank weapon (looked like a turtle with it on his back). But as he came up there was a click, he had his finger on the trigger and there then followed a magazine of 30 rounds peppering a straight line across the back of my team between them and the instructor and off into the distance.
Needless to say the attack finished, Stumpy got honorary but very brief membership of the RAF with a flying lesson from the Instructor and a few choice words from the rest of the team back in the block. Sadly he failed the course and had to do a re show (I doubt he ever went back).
There is that oh so important trigger discipline again! that was a flipping close call Bond44, it's odd that during live firing training I never gave much thought to sound of lead passing through the air. My very first experience in the field as it were of this I didn't even recognise what it was, very surreal a near miss from I assume a 7.62 mm, so close that I felt air disturbance. While sat on an apc, this zipping /humming sound which didn't register with me past my left hand side, I then heard the crack of the gun, then realised I was being told very calmly by my lieutenant " you might want to get down at some point soon" just writing this brings back that sensation very clearly. I would hate to experience a near miss from something like a 50mm
When it happened to me on OPs I thought it was someone throwing stones at our rover, on the realization it was not stones (as rounds passed through and stones don't!) I burst our laughing as the coloured guy sat next to me struggled to string a sentence together on the radio, watching as the colour drained from his face making him look almost white, that said I must have turned positively albino!
But thankfully the training and muscle memory kicked in and we lived to fight another day. That day I truly understood why you train and train again - so reaction is instinctive in a crisis.
I often wonder why I laughed but reasoned I just could not believe it was happening to little old me
Cheers :007)
It's not the
It's the people holding them.
Very nice tell me that's your attache case for work not airsoft collection!
Funny I have never fired a PPK but its on my bucket list before i go!
Cheers :007)
No airsofts. There's one real steel co2 powered in there, and 2 deactivated pistols.
Ppk is a nice little gun, though definetly a concealed carry protection gun, you wouldn't be happy taking one on ops. Satisfying to shoot with, snappy little buggers with a nice amount of recoil. Though for proper concealed carry I never liked the spurred mags, maybe my body shape but in an iwb holster the extra length was noticeable not so much the the flat mag.
What do they say the pen (and desk) is mightier than......
They don't trust me to bring my weapons home anymore (must be in an armoury behind a securely locked door!)
Cheers :007)
Looking forward to to catching up on my favorite porn outside of watches
Cheers :007)
Cheers :007)
Needless to say we made sure it was disposed of correctly at the time - the shame was years later I was looking for the exact same thing as a presentation piece 'Mess Webley' for the Mess when I left - typical timing is everything.
Cheers :007)