Actually it is a third variation P99. The first variant was 100% identical in appearance to the PAK. The second generation was identical in shape but with a closed scope rail & yours is the third variant with the flat front trigger guard without the lip or finger rest -{
I will have to disagree with your categorization for the PAK and V series being a first variation. In the US and German collector world V series pre-production models and PAK models are not included as a consideration of first-second-third-etc., variations.
Furthermore, production serial numbering started with 001001 and that is the first variation.
I did indeed look at and read about the PAK and the V series.
The first live-fire P99's distributed by Walther was the first variation as I have indicated as having owned in a previous post. And the subsequent second variation I commented on with the replacement trigger that I currently own and that of another poster.
As collectors we will have to disagree on this I imagine. You might also want to check with Dieter Marschall and get his opinion. He is a member of the Walther Forums.
With respect...ARE YOU THICK!
If you have the book in question in your library & you have located the image in question you will see a first generation P99 illustrated by mistake as a PAK...this is fact. Compare it to any PAK images on the net & you'll see the difference. The gun on the cover is a second generation. The version with the flat front trigger guard is the third variation. This is documented fact. Even Walther/Umarex themselves accidentally illustrated a first generation P99 in their own sales brochure for their HMSIS range....I've gotta go and lie down as you are giving me more of a headache than usual!
To be fair HM, how can you consider your variation to be the first, when two came before it. The first gen and second gen V series are my grail pieces, you can't ignore those two and start on the one that came after them. It seems collectors need to re designate their designations to include the earlier generations that collectors won't designate because they can't get them. Seems a bit daft.
With respect also...your avatar certainly suits your personality.
I'm not arguing that the photo on page 211 is or isn't a PAK model. It clearly isn't. It is also not a first variation as that pistol was never released for either police or public sale or use. It is another V-series pistol they used mistakenly edited in the book as a PAK as you have indicated.
This is a photo of my first variation production P99 #237 from Ulm. I have replaced the factory barrel with a threaded barrel from Walther.
Note the profile of the trigger guard, trigger, and the ski slope anong with the proprietary closed rail found on production models. This is a first variation production pistol. I know of no earlier first variation serial numbered P99. If you know of one I'd like to see it. Now, do you have anything in your collection with an earlier serial number that looks any different than this example?
I will have to disagree with your categorization for the PAK and V series being a first variation. In the US and German collector world V series pre-production models and PAK models are not included as a consideration of first-second-third-etc., variations.
Furthermore, production serial numbering started with 001001 and that is the first variation.
I did indeed look at and read about the PAK and the V series.
The first live-fire P99's distributed by Walther was the first variation as I have indicated as having owned in a previous post. And the subsequent second variation I commented on with the replacement trigger that I currently own and that of another poster.
As collectors we will have to disagree on this I imagine. You might also want to check with Dieter Marschall and get his opinion. He is a member of the Walther Forums.
With respect...ARE YOU THICK!
If you have the book in question in your library & you have located the image in question you will see a first generation P99 illustrated by mistake as a PAK...this is fact. Compare it to any PAK images on the net & you'll see the difference. The gun on the cover is a second generation. The version with the flat front trigger guard is the third variation. This is documented fact. Even Walther/Umarex themselves accidentally illustrated a first generation P99 in their own sales brochure for their HMSIS range....I've gotta go and lie down as you are giving me more of a headache than usual!
To be fair HM, how can you consider your variation to be the first, when two came before it. The first gen and second gen V series are my grail pieces, you can't ignore those two and start on the one that came after them. It seems collectors need to re designate their designations to include the earlier generations that collectors won't designate because they can't get them. Seems a bit daft.
Unobtainable models are not the reason at all. A first variation is commonly known as the first production model released to the public or for police/military use. Experimental models, no matter when they are produced before the final design and subsequent production run are not normally considered a 'first variation' ect., firearm. They are still a pre-production run and are still subject to design changes.
I believe we have a differing opinions on what constitutes and first, and subsequent variation definition. I have always considered Buxton and Rankin authorities on the Walther line and value their opinions and observations.
With respect also...your avatar certainly suits your personality.
I'm not arguing that the photo on page 211 is or isn't a PAK model. It clearly isn't. It is also not a first variation as that pistol was never released for either police or public sale or use. It is another V-series pistol they used mistakenly edited in the book as a PAK as you have indicated.
This is a photo of my first variation production P99 #237 from Ulm. I have replaced the factory barrel with a threaded barrel from Walther.
Note the profile of the trigger guard, trigger, and the ski slope anong with the proprietary closed rail found on production models. This is a first variation production pistol. I know of no earlier first variation serial numbered P99. If you know of one I'd like to see it.
It may have been the first variant of P99 sold in the US but it is the third variant which Walther produced. Do you not find it strange that in the Walther book only the prototype P99, the one which looks like a PAK and the version on the cover are illustrated. Would that not suggest even to an alleged DUMBASS like yourself that your version came along later?
As for my Avatar, that name was given to me by a very dear friend & I am honoured to stand by it you alleged Numbnut!
I might have known you would resort to insults if not able to prove your point.
If you think what has been posted this evening is not "proving my point" then you are thicker than I had first believed possible & you have been spouting crap for a considerable period of time!
Images of first, second and third generation pistols will be posted tomorrow Herr Mick who is in fact an American!
Well after all that I will stick with the PPK, I always preferred that as Bonds weapon of issue anyway.
This may be a long shot does anyone know where you can obtain a set of black Walther grips for a PPK these days ?
Cheers :007)
My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
Well after all that I will stick with the PPK, I always preferred that as Bonds weapon of issue anyway.
This may be a long shot does anyone know where you can obtain a set of black Walther grips for a PPK these days ?
Cheers :007)
Have a look on naturabuy.fr
Or d and b militaria.
It was either that.....or the priesthood
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
)
Playing devils advocate here. Let's get rid of the 'Generation' monicker and call them 'variants'. You must admit HM, that yours is a '3rd variant'. That came along at least a year after the '1st variant'. Your '3rd variant' wasn't the first offered for general sale to the general public otherwise at least three of us here wouldn't have a V series '2nd variant', and at least one of us here wouldn't have a '1st'. Although that member hasn't been active since about 2009 .
I might have known you would resort to insults if not able to prove your point.
If you think what has been posted this evening is not "proving my point" then you are thicker than I had first believed possible & you have been spouting crap for a considerable period of time!
Images of first, second and third generation pistols will be posted tomorrow Herr Mick who is in fact an American!
If you have a serial numbered first variation P99 sold or issued that is earlier than #237 I would be interested in seeing it.
What does me being an American have to do with anything in this conversation?
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
Well after all that I will stick with the PPK, I always preferred that as Bonds weapon of issue anyway.
This may be a long shot does anyone know where you can obtain a set of black Walther grips for a PPK these days ?
I might have known you would resort to insults if not able to prove your point.
If you think what has been posted this evening is not "proving my point" then you are thicker than I had first believed possible & you have been spouting crap for a considerable period of time!
Images of first, second and third generation pistols will be posted tomorrow Herr Mick who is in fact an American!
If you have a serial numbered first variation P99 sold or issued that is earlier than #237 I would be interested in seeing it.
What does me being an American have to do with anything in this conversation?
It's not the serial number that matters, it's the model of P99 the serial number is on.
Well after all that I will stick with the PPK, I always preferred that as Bonds weapon of issue anyway.
This may be a long shot does anyone know where you can obtain a set of black Walther grips for a PPK these days ?
Cheers :007)
Have a look on naturabuy.fr
Or d and b militaria.
Cheers Chris - Christ I wish I spoke better French!!
Cheers :007)
My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
Playing devils advocate here. Let's get rid of the 'Generation' monicker and call them 'variants'. You must admit HM, that yours is a '3rd variant'. That came along at least a year after the '1st variant'. Your '3rd variant' wasn't the first offered for general sale to the general public otherwise at least three of us here wouldn't have a V series '2nd variant', and at least one of us here wouldn't have a '1st'. Although that member hasn't been active since about 2009 .
Those firearms were not production firearms and were not offered for sale to the general public.
Production firearms for the first variation P99 started at 001001. Now, show me a production serial numbered P99 earlier than '237 or later that 001001 that looks like a pre-production model and you will have won this debate.
Well after all that I will stick with the PPK, I always preferred that as Bonds weapon of issue anyway.
This may be a long shot does anyone know where you can obtain a set of black Walther grips for a PPK these days ?
Well after all that I will stick with the PPK, I always preferred that as Bonds weapon of issue anyway.
This may be a long shot does anyone know where you can obtain a set of black Walther grips for a PPK these days ?
Cheers :007)
Have a look on naturabuy.fr
Or d and b militaria.
Cheers Chris - Christ I wish I spoke better French!!
Cheers :007)
Google Translate my friend, just stick walther ppk in the recherche box and hit go -{
It was either that.....or the priesthood
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
Playing devils advocate here. Let's get rid of the 'Generation' monicker and call them 'variants'. You must admit HM, that yours is a '3rd variant'. That came along at least a year after the '1st variant'. Your '3rd variant' wasn't the first offered for general sale to the general public otherwise at least three of us here wouldn't have a V series '2nd variant', and at least one of us here wouldn't have a '1st'. Although that member hasn't been active since about 2009 .
Those firearms were not production firearms and were not offered for sale to the general public.
Production firearms for the first variation P99 started at 001001. Now, show me a production serial numbered P99 earlier than '237 or later that 001001 that looks like a pre-production model and you will have won this debate.
We aren't talking about what was offered to the general public, just what was produced and offered by Walther in general. Going on that argument, some folks in the UK might not recognise any Walther offered after 97 at all as they couldn't be bought here. Therefore, the P99 doesn't exist at all, so what are we debating. You can't confine your reasoning to particular markets and ignore all others just to prove you are right. The Bond production team had second generation P99's which came before your third generation. Just because you think the public couldn't buy them doesn't mean they can be ignored so you can claim victory in a debate. And the public could buy second gen v serials. Members here have them.
Playing devils advocate here. Let's get rid of the 'Generation' monicker and call them 'variants'. You must admit HM, that yours is a '3rd variant'. That came along at least a year after the '1st variant'. Your '3rd variant' wasn't the first offered for general sale to the general public otherwise at least three of us here wouldn't have a V series '2nd variant', and at least one of us here wouldn't have a '1st'. Although that member hasn't been active since about 2009 .
Those firearms were not production firearms and were not offered for sale to the general public.
Production firearms for the first variation P99 started at 001001. Now, show me a production serial numbered P99 earlier than '237 or later that 001001 that looks like a pre-production model and you will have won this debate.
Both of you. And I will concede.
So even when I post images of the weapons in variant order of production by Walther in ULM you will still not accept that yours was manufactured after the examples in a recognised and respected tome on the subject by an authoritative author? Yours is not in the book in question because when said book was put together your version did not exist. If it did it would have been included. The V prefix serial numbers came before the 0 prefix that is also documented fact.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
Indeedy, V serials came out in 1996. Before general public release. Europe got the first P99's, USA way after. Many changes were made in that time period. The split trigger of the first gen and proto's was dropped and outward appearances (trigger guard, frame, rail) and even slide markings changed. But military markets and law enforcement had access to the P99 way before the commercial market by at least a year, possibly more. Even the Bond production in TND had the P99 before it saw public hands.
Sorry, that's BS!! Plain and utter and of an outstanding magnitude. It wasn't made until 97 at the very earliest. Walther went nuts to get their newest pistol on screen in late 97. You think they would have given you a newer version months before they gave the Bond production an older version. Seriously )
That's funny, I had mine a year before the movie was released and hadn't even yet been announced that the P99 was to replace the PPK.
In 1996, Walther supplied two second generation P99 (V1667 & V1680) and one P99 SD with factory suppressor plus eleven PAK pistols to the armoury for use on Tomorrow Never Dies. This was pretty much unpaid product placement of their new pistol. Production was already underway using the 811 prefix PPK. Only the SD was ultimately unused.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
Comments
To be fair HM, how can you consider your variation to be the first, when two came before it. The first gen and second gen V series are my grail pieces, you can't ignore those two and start on the one that came after them. It seems collectors need to re designate their designations to include the earlier generations that collectors won't designate because they can't get them. Seems a bit daft.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
I'm not arguing that the photo on page 211 is or isn't a PAK model. It clearly isn't. It is also not a first variation as that pistol was never released for either police or public sale or use. It is another V-series pistol they used mistakenly edited in the book as a PAK as you have indicated.
This is a photo of my first variation production P99 #237 from Ulm. I have replaced the factory barrel with a threaded barrel from Walther.
Note the profile of the trigger guard, trigger, and the ski slope anong with the proprietary closed rail found on production models. This is a first variation production pistol. I know of no earlier first variation serial numbered P99. If you know of one I'd like to see it. Now, do you have anything in your collection with an earlier serial number that looks any different than this example?
Unobtainable models are not the reason at all. A first variation is commonly known as the first production model released to the public or for police/military use. Experimental models, no matter when they are produced before the final design and subsequent production run are not normally considered a 'first variation' ect., firearm. They are still a pre-production run and are still subject to design changes.
I believe we have a differing opinions on what constitutes and first, and subsequent variation definition. I have always considered Buxton and Rankin authorities on the Walther line and value their opinions and observations.
It may have been the first variant of P99 sold in the US but it is the third variant which Walther produced. Do you not find it strange that in the Walther book only the prototype P99, the one which looks like a PAK and the version on the cover are illustrated. Would that not suggest even to an alleged DUMBASS like yourself that your version came along later?
As for my Avatar, that name was given to me by a very dear friend & I am honoured to stand by it you alleged Numbnut!
If you think what has been posted this evening is not "proving my point" then you are thicker than I had first believed possible & you have been spouting crap for a considerable period of time!
Images of first, second and third generation pistols will be posted tomorrow Herr Mick who is in fact an American!
This may be a long shot does anyone know where you can obtain a set of black Walther grips for a PPK these days ?
Cheers :007)
Or d and b militaria.
Playing devils advocate here. Let's get rid of the 'Generation' monicker and call them 'variants'. You must admit HM, that yours is a '3rd variant'. That came along at least a year after the '1st variant'. Your '3rd variant' wasn't the first offered for general sale to the general public otherwise at least three of us here wouldn't have a V series '2nd variant', and at least one of us here wouldn't have a '1st'. Although that member hasn't been active since about 2009
If you have a serial numbered first variation P99 sold or issued that is earlier than #237 I would be interested in seeing it.
What does me being an American have to do with anything in this conversation?
Here. Ships internationally.
http://www.carlwalther.com/grips.htm
It's not the serial number that matters, it's the model of P99 the serial number is on.
Cheers Chris - Christ I wish I spoke better French!!
Cheers :007)
Those firearms were not production firearms and were not offered for sale to the general public.
Production firearms for the first variation P99 started at 001001. Now, show me a production serial numbered P99 earlier than '237 or later that 001001 that looks like a pre-production model and you will have won this debate.
Both of you. And I will concede.
Got it thanks
Cheers :007)
We aren't talking about what was offered to the general public, just what was produced and offered by Walther in general. Going on that argument, some folks in the UK might not recognise any Walther offered after 97 at all as they couldn't be bought here. Therefore, the P99 doesn't exist at all, so what are we debating. You can't confine your reasoning to particular markets and ignore all others just to prove you are right. The Bond production team had second generation P99's which came before your third generation. Just because you think the public couldn't buy them doesn't mean they can be ignored so you can claim victory in a debate. And the public could buy second gen v serials. Members here have them.
So even when I post images of the weapons in variant order of production by Walther in ULM you will still not accept that yours was manufactured after the examples in a recognised and respected tome on the subject by an authoritative author? Yours is not in the book in question because when said book was put together your version did not exist. If it did it would have been included. The V prefix serial numbers came before the 0 prefix that is also documented fact.
http://www.oocities.org/f-4g/thread2.jpg
Sorry, that's BS!! Plain and utter and of an outstanding magnitude. It wasn't made until 97 at the very earliest. Walther went nuts to get their newest pistol on screen in late 97. You think they would have given you a newer version months before they gave the Bond production an older version. Seriously
The Bond movie was probably shooting before I bought mine. They don't always shoot scenes in visual sequence either.
In 1996, Walther supplied two second generation P99 (V1667 & V1680) and one P99 SD with factory suppressor plus eleven PAK pistols to the armoury for use on Tomorrow Never Dies. This was pretty much unpaid product placement of their new pistol. Production was already underway using the 811 prefix PPK. Only the SD was ultimately unused.
So they got theirs before yours then. Well, that confirms what Donk and I have been saying. You said the opposite in a previous post...
Best remember details if you're gonna lay on the BS..
I do remember the details and I don't lie about my firearms, my collection, or my knowledge of them.
I would be careful with your accusations.