National service, good or bad idea ?

Thunderpussy

Reading the thread about military service of some here, I was wondering on opinions
On whether members thought national service was a good ( or bad ) idea ?

Loeffelholz

Good idea. Along with a compulsory year in retail, and/or the restaurant/hospitality industry. Society would be much more civil.

Chriscoop

TP you're a bloody mind reader, I was having this exact thought yesterday after reading Higgins post.
I think it's an excellent idea, compulsory 2 years in either the military, merchant navy or medical services. I know a lot countries do have such things, Israel, Greece used to. I think it helps build pride and instills discipline and respect. At the very least in the UK it would occupy all those young people who finish education and then languish. It may even prevent some from heading down the wrong path in life. Failing that young people who commit crime should be spirited away for a spell in the military........

Mr Snow

Excellent idea; discipline, employment, a possible career if that life suits (even it's only for a certain number of years depending on the country you live in), fitness, learn a trade, understand other cultures if you are sent abroad and even progress to MI6 if you're good enough.

Yes, there are risks regardless of where you are or may be sent/stationed but there are risks in everyday life no matter what you do or where you are.

Chriscoop

I reckon you're more at risk in some inner city sink estates than in the military, I've worked in both and much prefered being shot at in kosovo to maybe being stabbed in the pelican estate in Peckham.
On another level doing service may help reduce violence and crime in society, these days most people under a certain age believe violence is like in the movies, young guys at 14 or 15 who actually will have a go at older bigger men, once you've witnessed proper brutal violence or two fit guys who know how to fight knocking lumps out of each other for 5 minutes it shows video game and movie violence for what it is and how fragile humans actually are.

Mr Snow

Chriscoop wrote:

I reckon you're more at risk in some inner city sink estates than in the military, I've worked in both and much prefered being shot at in kosovo to maybe being stabbed in the pelican estate in Peckham.
On another level doing service may help reduce violence and crime in society, these days most people under a certain age believe violence is like in the movies, young guys at 14 or 15 who actually will have a go at older bigger men, once you've witnessed proper brutal violence or two fit guys who know how to fight knocking lumps out of each other for 5 minutes it shows video game and movie violence for what it is and how fragile humans actually are.

This may be of interest Cc. This happened on Australia Day (not that that will mean anything to many people or the youths in question but it just so happened on the day). That's irrelevant as it could happen (and has happened) on any other day but it was just a coincidence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-26/malmsbury-youth-centre-inmates-arrested-after-escaping/8214264

So it goes back to the original question by Thunderpussy. Once again a resounding yes from me. Might not work for all of them and who doesn't make mistakes at that age? However, taking the glass half full approach, National Service may just be what they need. Take away the opportunity for alcohol, drugs, crime and/or influence from those around them and give them something else to think about and do. Step out of line in the Service I don't think the punishment will be a bed for the night and three meals per day!

Australia (unfortunately) has very lenient laws when it comes to youth who commit crimes - and adults for that matter. I won't comment on any other countries because I don't know but this place for one need a good shake up and National Service for mine would be a good start.

Apologies - happened the day before Australia Day, article published Australia Day.

Chriscoop

OGG007 wrote:

Chriscoop wrote:

I reckon you're more at risk in some inner city sink estates than in the military, I've worked in both and much prefered being shot at in kosovo to maybe being stabbed in the pelican estate in Peckham.
On another level doing service may help reduce violence and crime in society, these days most people under a certain age believe violence is like in the movies, young guys at 14 or 15 who actually will have a go at older bigger men, once you've witnessed proper brutal violence or two fit guys who know how to fight knocking lumps out of each other for 5 minutes it shows video game and movie violence for what it is and how fragile humans actually are.

This may be of interest Cc. This happened on Australia Day (not that that will mean anything to many people or the youths in question but it just so happened on the day). That's irrelevant as it could happen (and has happened) on any other day but it was just a coincidence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-26/malmsbury-youth-centre-inmates-arrested-after-escaping/8214264

So it goes back to the original question by Thunderpussy. Once again a resounding yes from me. Might not work for all of them and who doesn't make mistakes at that age? However, taking the glass half full approach, National Service may just be what they need. Take away the opportunity for alcohol, drugs, crime and/or influence from those around them and give them something else to think about and do. Step out of line in the Service I don't think the punishment will be a bed for the night and three meals per day!

Australia (unfortunately) has very lenient laws when it comes to youth who commit crimes - and adults for that matter. I won't comment on any other countries because I don't know but this place for one need a good shake up and National Service for mine would be a good start.

Apologies - happened the day before Australia Day, article published Australia Day.

Remarkable, I knew a few sergeants and pti instructors who could sort that lot out. or exercise them so much they have no energy left for rioting, and causing trouble

Joshua

I think it is a good idea but I think the young peoples should be working in the communities from where they live and they should be helping to make their communities better places for themselves and everyone else. They would have pride in the towns and cities if they helped to keep them better and help others. Only the military if they wanted to join instead of service in the community.

Mr Snow

Joshua wrote:

I think it is a good idea but I think the young peoples should be working in the communities from where they live and they should be helping to make their communities better places for themselves and everyone else. They would have pride in the towns and cities if they helped to keep them better and help others. Only the military if they wanted to join instead of service in the community.

I see your point Joshua but as you know it's not a perfect world. They may be in the minority but many youths and adults couldn't care tuppence about where they live, their community or have any interest either. 'Community Service' is a so called penalty for committing a crime if the deed isn't worthy of jail time or the person has no way of paying (literally) for what they did. So the person may be required to do a certain amount of hours of community work but this is hardly punishment. It's basically a walk in the park and an inconvenience for a short period of time.

The point I'm making is National Service would (potentially) give many a better opportunity in life as opposed to an easy cop out. The reason I say that is they would be taught some valuable lessons and hopefully comprehend that life isn't a bed of roses and with any luck their thinking may be to earn a decent living through hard work and discipline instead of looking for a quick fix, an easy buck and/or trying to impress someone (whether they be older or younger) just because they belted some poor stranger on the street, robbed a store/house/someone, stole a car and so on. I'm sure you get the picture.

I'm not saying National Service is the be all and end all, but for mine I think the world would be a much better place if it was in place.

IanT

Good idea in my opinion.

2 years of discipline, fitness and education. Some may stay on. Those that don't... well to quote from "The Quiet Soldier" by Adam Ballinger (worth getting) - "At the end of National Service we discovered that we might not have made good soldiers, but we did make good civilians."

CoolHandBond

Certainly would be a good idea for those who have no job after leaving education and those under 25 who are found guilty of offences including violence, theft, vandalism etc.

Number24

I think there are many positives in National service. The physically training, getting to know people from all over the country and all walks of life, getting a understanding of the military etc. Now Norway has national service for both sexes and it's going well. It turns out the girls have a lower drop-out rate.
It's also a great recruitment too. Sweden left the National service model in the 90's, but they are considering bringing it back because they can't fill the positions.

But today the military in most countries is so small, only a fraction of the youth is actually needed. And many jobs in the military requires so much technological training it's more cost effictive to hire people for many years. Some have suggested that those not needs in the military should do their National service in civil Defence, the health service, NGO's etc.
That might work.

Thunderpussy

It would seem that many, especially those with experience. Think some form of National
Service would be of benefit to the country and to those taking part I think it would help
Underline respect not just for oneself, but your community, local area and the people
Who live there.

Revolver66

National service should not be compulsory, it should be optional. However if we're having this discussion then as an alternate suggestion perhaps a government could offer youths either national service, university, or a trade apprenticeship and you could pick one of the three. Not everyone wishes to serve in the military or police force. Some wish to study and further there education.

However, the idea of a compulsory year in retail should be mandatory ) )

Bond44

Bad idea - anyone who has deployed on operations will tell you they would much rather the guys left and right of them on the front line were volunteers and not pressed men. That way you know the are as committed to being there as you are. It's the basic foundation to military service trust the bloke next to you!

Funny though how society turns to the military when standards start to drop for a quick fix. Everyone I know who did national service hated it at the time but loved it years later

Simple solution is put more ex military into the schooling system to catch the 'youth of today earlier' not try and fix it when it's too late

Just a different perspective

Cheers :007)

Joshua

I think it is no good to make peoples join the army if they do not want to do this. they should be serving the communities unless they want to join the army. I do not speak of criminals but young peoples who to motivate and have pride in themselves and where they live and to help to meet other peoples in the community instead of having no hopes or future to turn to crimes or drug or be drinking. If they do the work of use in the community then some of them will be better peoples in the future. If they were caring for the streets would they drop litter or write on the walls? If they got to help other peoples in some small ways would it be better that they can understand peoples and better to get to know peoples of other religions and races.
When I was in the army everyone was the volunteer. I was a corporal and the stick commander but everyone I was with was a good soldier who wanted to be in my regiment. I would not have liked to have the men there who were no good to the regiment because they were forced to be there.

always shaken

I don't know what ages our members are here on AJB judging by their possesions,and family stories ,agents like TP ASP9MM Welshboy ,automatically spring too mind ,even my self ,are all above national service age . "chuck em in the army always seems to population cry .The British army is a professional army ,and to mix saggy arsed estate hooligans (and give them guns too)I don't know if it would work .Yes of course it works in countries like Israel ,but our youth dosent seem to have the same pride in its homeland ,unless of course they are waving the George cross and fighting Turkish football supporters.My dad did national service back in the 50s and he hated it .I don't know where id vote ,yes of course id want to sling every toe rag from Peckham into the army to teach em a lesson, but wether any of them would pay any attention I don't know ,perhaps our ex service men could chip in ,if they want to work with these "new recruits"

Bond44

In the late 80's the U.K. Military started teaching Values and Standards to its personnel because society wasn't. Shocking but true and it still happens today, why because they (the military) hung onto and hold them as the foundation of what they do to maintain operational effectiveness. They still hold true today meanwhile society have moved away from them and took away the power for teachers to discipline children, Police to enforce the law and parents lost the ability to teach their kids the rules to being a good citizen (or basic right and wrong). We wonder why the youth of today are wayward - there are no boundaries. But not all youths are bad either - just misguided, poorly advised, have crap role models and badly lead.

Easy to fix put them (enforced rules) back in, educate and empower those who should teach the way to behave and then enforce it punish harshly those who break the rules. But that's not a popular idea - not saying it was perfect but it was no worse than today in some parts of society.

Cheers :007)

Number24

In many countries with military national service, at least in the developed world, the service is in effect voluntary. While almost all the boys served in the military in the cold war (only pacifists and those with health reasons didn't serve), only 14% of each year's potrential recruits actually serve. Keep in mind that girls are also a part of the Norwegian national service now. As a result this, youth actually compete to get into the military. I guess the system is more compareable to the Territorial Army and the National Guard now?

Chriscoop

I would never put any national service personnel on active deployment, there is a vast array of duties that could be done which would still involve basic training, discipline and respect, I would never have wanted to be reliant on a non regular conscript in any potentially fatal or code red situation. The choices should be as follows, serve in the military, further education, apprenticeship. By further education I don't mean, Endless media studies degrees or surf board technology etc, university shouldn't be an excuse for 3 years of dossing about, getting drunk and catching std's while running up huge debts. all that happens later in life.... Or in the military

Herr Michael

I am for it except in critical career fields dealing with nuclear weapons, aerospace vehicles, or aircraft.

Careers in those fields would be closed except to volunteers passing extremely high standards.

Sir Miles

It's a terrible, terrible idea

Who wants gangs of trained thugs running around after they come out ?

Mr Snow

Sir Miles wrote:

It's a terrible, terrible idea

Who wants gangs of trained thugs running around after they come out ?

Not everyone's a thug who goes in and not everyone's a thug who comes out. Some may not even wish to come out as they may enjoy being in the armed forces and have forged a career path and/or learned a trade..

Sir Miles

OGG007 wrote:

Sir Miles wrote:

It's a terrible, terrible idea

Who wants gangs of trained thugs running around after they come out ?

Not everyone's a thug who goes in and not everyone's a thug who comes out. Some may not even wish to come out as they may enjoy being in the armed forces and have forged a career path and/or learned a trade..

But they will have all had training and fired weapons...why force that on someone who doesn't want to do it ? Go to army/navy towns on a Saturday night and watch the fighting....
I believe people should have a choice...not be forced into it like you believe.

Number24

Well trained conscripts fighting to defend their own territory can do very well, such as the Finish army in the Winter War and Continuation War. If they aren't fighting in their own country and/or aren't well trained it will go badly.

Chriscoop

Typically in garrison towns a lot of trouble is started by local lads who resent the military types coming out in their town. A bit of a dust up is tolerated by officers and the rmp's or red caps anything above that or repeated offences will garner a reaction back at the barracks.
But let's look a bit further into this, as most people are taking the view that national service would cure some of societies ills, it would for some, empathy, lack of motivation, lack of direction and lack of proper parenting, social issues, drugs, crime, no father figure are all intrinsically connected to young people veering down a wrong path which in a lot of cases leads to gangs, little education , prison certainly a life of crime and repeated prison sentences, all at great financial and societal cost. A spell in either military, medical or merchant sectors would prevent a lot of this, give purpose, give a sense of belonging, give an education. In my experience even the most disrespectful thick headed slovenly grunt will end up with some sense of discipline or pride. I don't believe in paying fit able young people to sit on their arses all day or get pregnant to get a flat and extra benefits. Take the hard gang member out of his gang and estate and stick him on a long yomp in the mountains (which he probably has never seen or is likely to) and watch his gang banger front dissolve. Pull him out of a cold river by his bergan and give him a hot drink and I'll show you a thankful person who's never been thankful before.

Joshua

Sir Miles wrote:

It's a terrible, terrible idea

Who wants gangs of trained thugs running around after they come out ?

I agree. There are many ways to serve the country not in the military. Educate and train to serve the country in other ways. I said before I would not have had the conscriped soldiers in my regiment and it would not be allowed anyway. We would spend more time to try to motivate them to do things they were not interested to do and were not able to do. Find what these youth are interested then train them in these things to help the country and themselves.

CoolHandBond

Chriscoop wrote:

Typically in garrison towns a lot of trouble is started by local lads who resent the military types coming out in their town. A bit of a dust up is tolerated by officers and the rmp's or red caps anything above that or repeated offences will garner a reaction back at the barracks.
But let's look a bit further into this, as most people are taking the view that national service would cure some of societies ills, it would for some, empathy, lack of motivation, lack of direction and lack of proper parenting, social issues, drugs, crime, no father figure are all intrinsically connected to young people veering down a wrong path which in a lot of cases leads to gangs, little education , prison certainly a life of crime and repeated prison sentences, all at great financial and societal cost. A spell in either military, medical or merchant sectors would prevent a lot of this, give purpose, give a sense of belonging, give an education. In my experience even the most disrespectful thick headed slovenly grunt will end up with some sense of discipline or pride. I don't believe in paying fit able young people to sit on their arses all day or get pregnant to get a flat and extra benefits. Take the hard gang member out of his gang and estate and stick him on a long yomp in the mountains (which he probably has never seen or is likely to) and watch his gang banger front dissolve. Pull him out of a cold river by his bergan and give him a hot drink and I'll show you a thankful person who's never been thankful before.

+1 -{

Joshua wrote:

Sir Miles wrote:

It's a terrible, terrible idea

Who wants gangs of trained thugs running around after they come out ?

We would spend more time to try to motivate them to do things they were not interested to do and were not able to do.

I think a RSM like Jack Watson played in The Wild Geese would provide enough motivation for those not interested

Joshua

I have not seen this film but heard about it CoolHandBond. I think you are not correct. i think the British army can only do to so much to discipline in this times.
In my army it was correct for the NCOs to strike the soldier. When we were training and did the mistake we could be sent before the officer or be hit. If we were hit but fell to the ground this was weak and you would be hit until you got up to your feet. If you were bad you would be sent to detention barracks were you would be really have the most bad of times. I do not know anyone who went to DB more than one time. The things that happened at DB was talked about with the soldiers and this would make them not act bad for the fear of this. i think this is not like the British army because they cannot do this things it is like the teacher cannot hit the child or the parent also, the child has no fear to do things and this would be same in the army. I would not like to see peoples who are not interested in the army be in the army.

Mr Snow

Sir Miles wrote:

OGG007 wrote:

Sir Miles wrote:

It's a terrible, terrible idea

Who wants gangs of trained thugs running around after they come out ?

Not everyone's a thug who goes in and not everyone's a thug who comes out. Some may not even wish to come out as they may enjoy being in the armed forces and have forged a career path and/or learned a trade..

But they will have all had training and fired weapons...why force that on someone who doesn't want to do it ? Go to army/navy towns on a Saturday night and watch the fighting....I believe people should have a choice...not be forced into it like you believe.

And this doesn't happen in non Army/Navy towns on a Saturday night? Wake up and smell the coffee Sir Miles. The way you and Joshua are carrying on you seem to think the world's a perfect place if we could all do what we wanted to do; yes I'll be disciplined because I got what I wanted. Sorry to disappoint you but it's not a perfect world.

The way you phrase it you make it sound like gangs are forged because they have been in the services.

Do you honestly believe that because people have been forced in to the armed services and have been trained to fire a weapon this is why there is trouble in the towns where there are military bases? I suggest you look at Chriscoop's (quote 26) and give yourself a reality check.

Joshua

I look back to my post OGG007 and to see that I made the mistake. I agree with sir miles that

It's a terrible, terrible idea

not that the gangs of thugs. Nothing to change my mind about better ways to serve the country than to be forced to go into the army. I only think this in my own experience. Why would a professional army of volunteers want many recruits who just don't want to be in the army. I was speaking to a security guard I know and we were telling others about stories from the armies. He said that the British army has a yellow card for recruits to stop them from being bullied and shouted at. This i could not believe.