Timothy Dalton in an extended James Bond role

WadsyWadsy Auckland, New ZealandPosts: 412MI6 Agent
Good Day everyone. I have lately been reading around casting choices of James Bond as per each and every Bond film at the time, the 'ifs', the advantages and disadvantages. One thing that has been on my mind however, is casting choices throughout the 80's.

It was quite worthy of mentioning that it was only when the announcement of For Your Eyes Only came about, that Roger Moore had expressed a desire to stop playing James Bond as he was well into his fifties at the time. Timothy Dalton was their first choice as a potential replacement, with a few others being considered as well - such as Lewis Collins and Michael Billington. What I do know is this... Timothy Dalton did NOT like the way the Bond films were heading - probably referring to the camp, Bond into space, unrealistic gadgets and more from the previous film, and possibly even before Moonraker. Because Dalton declined, they pretty much had no choice but to stick with Roger Moore for a fifth performance to avoid any huge risks I guess.

In 1982, when Octopussy was on the way to being directed, Moore had again expressed a strong desire to depart the role, and hand it over to someone else. This time, James Brolin as well as Timothy Dalton had been placed as the main candidates. You know, if the abomination known as Never Say Never Again had never been released (thank you very much Kevin McClory), I am 90% certain Moore would not have returned, and the role would have been handed over to Dalton. Brolin may have been up there, but he was certainly not Timothy. Had Dalton replaced Moore with Octopussy, the film (and the next entry) would have been so different, I just cant help but imagine. This would have mean't that all Bond films of the 80's were serious, given that Eyes Only was already down-to-earth.

Having TD as James Bond for a total of four films, you have to wonder, how different would Octopussy and A View To A Kill be with a 37 year old actor taking over the role in '83? I always knew that AVTAK would probably be the best film in the entire series for me if they had stuck with the same plot, but changed some of the minor details. Looking at what we already have with Dalton with The Living Daylights and Licence To Kill, how would those films have impacted on viewers, considering that Dalton would already be a well-established Bond. Would the 6 year hiatus have been as severe as it was, or even there? Would Dalton have done 'The Property Of A Lady' in '91 and quit there with five films? I know this topic has been done to death, but I still think that he got the worst deal of all the actors.
1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. LTK 4. FRWL 5. TLD 6. TSWLM 7. AVTAK 8. GF 9. MR 10. TB 11. OP 12. SF 13. DN 14. SP 15. LALD 16. GE 17. CR 18. YOLT 19. TWINE 20. TMWTGG 21. NTTD 22. TND 23. QOS 24. NSNA 25. DAD 26. DAF 27. CR '67

1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
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Comments

  • philpogphilpog Posts: 51MI6 Agent
    edited May 2017
    A few points.

    1. NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is not an abomination, as much as the fans would like to dismiss it as dross because it's outside the official series. The film did respectable business, was well received by the critics, and has many good things to recommend it, including a charming and unusually self-deprecating Connery and two of the best villains (Brandauer, Carrera) in any Bond movie, official or not.

    2. "Thank you very much Kevin McClory" should really be "Thank you very much Ian Fleming." If Fleming had behaved in an ethical manner and given credit where it was due (to both McClory and Jack Whittingham), the THUNDERBALL court case would have never happened. Instead he let his arrogance get the better of him. Ultimately NSNA exists because of him.

    3. I love OCTOPUSSY; it's one of my favorite Bond films. Dalton should have started with A VIEW TO A KILL.
  • WadsyWadsy Auckland, New ZealandPosts: 412MI6 Agent
    philpog wrote:
    A few points.

    1. NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is not an abomination, as much as the fans would like to dismiss it as dross because it's outside the official series. The film did respectable business, was well received by the critics, and has many good things to recommend it, including a charming and unusually self-deprecating Connery and two of the best villains (Brandauer, Carrera) in any Bond movie, official or not.

    2. "Thank you very much Kevin McClory" should really be "Thank you very much Ian Fleming." If Fleming had behaved in an ethical manner and given credit where it was due (to both McClory and Jack Whittingham), the THUNDERBALL court case would have never happened. Instead he let his arrogance get the better of him. Ultimately NSNA exists because of him.

    3. I love OCTOPUSSY; it's one of my favorite Bond films. Dalton should have started with A VIEW TO A KILL.

    Everything I said is in my opinion, not merely stating everyone's. Dalton had a good reason to start with A View To A Kill because looking back at casting, there was absolutely no reason for Roger Moore to continue playing James Bond. No other movie, an actor rejecting it because of the direction the series was heading or conflicts with another movie/series. Roger Moore had expressed a desire to retire from playing 007 at the announcement of both For Your Eyes Only and Octopussy, but was asked to keep playing as Dalton wasn't up with the series after Moonraker's style, and then with the latter, there was an unofficial Bond and they thought Moore would be best up against Connery. Roger Moore was signed on to do three movies, and from Moonraker his contract was renewed on a film to film basis.

    With A View To A Kill, it could just be that they didn't want to go through the hassle of what they did with the previous two EON produced films. It's a shame, because while I already love A View To A Kill, it would have been better as Timothy Dalton's debut and seeing him up against Walken would have been excellent.
    1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. LTK 4. FRWL 5. TLD 6. TSWLM 7. AVTAK 8. GF 9. MR 10. TB 11. OP 12. SF 13. DN 14. SP 15. LALD 16. GE 17. CR 18. YOLT 19. TWINE 20. TMWTGG 21. NTTD 22. TND 23. QOS 24. NSNA 25. DAD 26. DAF 27. CR '67

    1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    philpog wrote:
    A few points.

    1. NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is not an abomination, as much as the fans would like to dismiss it as dross because it's outside the official series. The film did respectable business, was well received by the critics, and has many good things to recommend it, including a charming and unusually self-deprecating Connery and two of the best villains (Brandauer, Carrera) in any Bond movie, official or not.

    2. "Thank you very much Kevin McClory" should really be "Thank you very much Ian Fleming." If Fleming had behaved in an ethical manner and given credit where it was due (to both McClory and Jack Whittingham), the THUNDERBALL court case would have never happened. Instead he let his arrogance get the better of him. Ultimately NSNA exists because of him.
    Hear, hear. {[]

    Dalton would have made more sense taking over with FYEO. The film has that 70s/early 80s sense that Dalton fit, with his long face and blown-dray disco hair. Perhaps had he taken over then, the dreck that is OP and AVTAK would never have been made, and we could have just settled for GF doing that formula.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
    I agree with Wadsey. I would very much have liked to see Dalton do more bond movies, and if he had started with OP people would have been more ready for his style in LTK. That way Moore could have been spared all the jokes about his age.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Then again the Producers would have been taking one hell of a chance trying to introduce a new
    Face as Bond, up against Sir Sean in NSNA. ;)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,109MI6 Agent
    Wadsy wrote:
    A View To A Kill, it would have been better as Timothy Dalton's debut and seeing him up against Walken would have been excellent.
    that would have been good, come to think of it, Dalton's more intense brooding take vs Walken's twitchy giggling psychopath could have been some serious scenerychewing
    unfortunately we would lose the Moore/McNee (Templar/Steed) teamup, that wouldn't have made so much sense with Dalton playing Bond

    I think all three of those latter Moore movies would have been better if they just resisted to urge to insert doubletakes and joke musical cues and firetruck chases, Moore was already changing his take on the character, but the stories were going in a direction that would have suited Dalton
  • Dirty PunkerDirty Punker ...Your Eyes Only, darling."Posts: 2,587MI6 Agent
    I can't imagine Dalton saying "Stop weezing, Tibbet." :)) .
    a reasonable rate of return
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
    :))
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    edited May 2017
    Not sure if your speculations bear any substance.
    IMO it's just another glorification of Dalton and a "what if he'd done more than 2" continuation of other threads.

    If I recall correctly from the time, it was a big gamble - Moore saying that he'll quit and then getting shat over with money from Cubby to stay. In that context, I see the castings of Billington, Collins and Dalton - just to keep prices reasonable.

    Remember, if EON really would have really wanted another actor, they could have done that from FYEO on - but they didn't.
    Their Nr. 1 choice was Moore until he decided that his time had come.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Dirty PunkerDirty Punker ...Your Eyes Only, darling."Posts: 2,587MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    was come.
    There's a grammar error in there...somewhere. Fix it when you can, Higgy-bae.
    a reasonable rate of return
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    was come.
    There's a grammar error in there...somewhere. Fix it when you can, Higgy-bae.

    The name is HIGGINS! X-(
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • WadsyWadsy Auckland, New ZealandPosts: 412MI6 Agent
    Interesting responses... Well there's no way Timothy Dalton would have done For Your Eyes Only. He said so himself... After Moonraker, he did not like the way the films were heading. With Octopussy and A View To A Kill, yes some things would needed to have been changed and perhaps neither Maud Adams or Patrick MacNee would have been cast in their roles, had Dalton been a part of the Bond franchise then. That's also fine, films always have to be changed to fit the tone of the actor and performance. I believe both Octopussy and A View To A Kill would have been better films (don't get me wrong - I love them both now!) but why was Roger Moore cast for AVTAK? I could understand the reasoning behind Octopussy due to Never Say Never Again, but why was he asked to return a seventh time? Were they just too comfortable keeping him on or something? It would have been one extra film for Timothy Dalton, and as Calvin Dyson said, one less person in the fifties lol (Ascot scenes).
    1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. LTK 4. FRWL 5. TLD 6. TSWLM 7. AVTAK 8. GF 9. MR 10. TB 11. OP 12. SF 13. DN 14. SP 15. LALD 16. GE 17. CR 18. YOLT 19. TWINE 20. TMWTGG 21. NTTD 22. TND 23. QOS 24. NSNA 25. DAD 26. DAF 27. CR '67

    1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    I'd seriously miss OP without Moore. He's perfect in it.

    If Dalton did a few more films in the style of TLD then I'd be happy, any more of the LTK dog's-breakfasts and the 80s Bonds would've been far worse.

    I am also unsure that with minor tweaks to AVTAK that it would've been received better. Most people point out Moore's age - but as much as I adore AVTAK - there's also something else not quite "bang-on" with the film that I can never put my finger on. Perhaps that it lacks a level of fun (something that TLD does well) similar to LTK...
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    edited May 2017
    Wadsy wrote:
    He said so himself... After Moonraker, he did not like the way the films were heading.

    Do you have anything to back this up or is that pure speculation?
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,109MI6 Agent
    Wadsy wrote:
    ... films always have to be changed to fit the tone of the actor and performance ...
    I always thought The Living Daylights retained many elements that seemed to have been written with Moore in mind
    particular the chase scene across the frozen lake and the cello case ride across the border
    whereas License to Kill could never have been done by Moore

    what other elements of the last three Moore films would have to be changed to suit Dalton's style? A View To A Kill was already getting pretty bloody, we know Moore himself had issues with all the casual slaughter
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    What about Dalton taking on the role much, much earlier, and not just as a fantastic "what if" but based on what could have really happened? There's the anecdotal story of Dalton being offered Bond for OHMSS, but it might have been actually for whatever followed DAF. Like the many Bond casting "what ifs" as in a Connery OHMSS, I can really idealize to the max a young Tim Dalton in the role, growing into it with each installment and capturing Fleming's Bond to a "T." On the flip side, realistically along with the lesser acting experience at that point, he might have lacked the maturity, insight and temperament to deliver the gravitas needed for an interestingly complex Bond.

    I think of James Dean playing an older version of his character, Jet Rink in Giant, which makes me wonder how he would have handled age-appropriate roles had he lived older. Similarly though, I think Lazenby did a great job for a guy with no leading man, let alone feature film experience, who as a young guy, beautifully executed an older character beyond his own age and maturity level; in comparison, Dalton could have given it a good run to take on Bond at an earlier age.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    superado wrote:
    On the flip side, realistically along with the lesser acting experience at that point, he might have lacked the maturity, insight and temperament to deliver the gravitas needed for an interestingly complex Bond. 

    The other consideration is how he would've done in the US market. Moore did continue the escapist, almost caricature British element that the US audiences adored. He carried the US market until OP - TLD and LTK crashed and burned there.

    One must also consider how gritty, non-campy films would've competed with the big blockbuster B type movies released in the late 70s too.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
    I'm listening to James Bond Radio talking about TLD. It's not completely on topic, but ......

    Wouldn't Michelle Pheiffer had been a fantastic Kara Milovy? At the time she had just finished Ladyhawk. That movie bombed and Scarface was two years earlier. She wasn't a superstar yet. She's one of the most beautiful women in the world and a damn fine actress.

    8ad434ada424d8f95fba3e0453a72c56.jpg



    And I think Elle MacPherson could easily have played the girl in the boat in the PTS:

    00753d4f29c86653e800b406c37a79d4.jpg
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    I'm happy she wasn't. American Bond girls (apart from Dr Goodhead) always end up being the worst, and Pheiffer is terrible at accents. An English actress playing a central European was done believably.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
    I have to agree that American actresses in Bond movies rarely end well. I know she's an excellent actress and her career attest to that. She usually play Americans and the only relevant accent I can think of is The Russia House. To me her accent sounds at least as good as Maryam d'Abo's, but I'm not English, American or from eastern Europe. While they don't bring the same talents to the table I think both her and MacPherson would have given the movie more PR.
  • Doctor KnowDoctor Know Posts: 20MI6 Agent
    I think if AVTAK had been Dalton's first film and not Moore's last, the film would've been better received. Moore, Maxwell and others at MI6 (minus Q) were simply too old by that point.

    Yes, Moore should've stepped away after FYEO, but TPTB at Eon couldn't pass up the chance to pit their Bond against a returning Connery Bond. That said, I like Octopussy. Moore is in his mid 50s yes, but the film has him in a series of nonstop action scenes and Moore is so energized throughout the whole affair, that you don't mind that joining "Jolly Roger" for this adventure. OP should've been his last, but Moore said he had such a good time doing it, that he felt he had one more in him.
  • sambwoysambwoy Berkshire, EnglandPosts: 90MI6 Agent
    Dalton would have been an interesting, appearance and character, contrast with Grace Jones- the conflicted down-to-earth Bond with a flamboyant villainess would have been fun.
  • GrindelwaldGrindelwald Posts: 1,341MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    I'm listening to James Bond Radio talking about TLD. It's not completely on topic, but ......

    Wouldn't Michelle Pheiffer had been a fantastic Kara Milovy? At the time she had just finished Ladyhawk. That movie bombed and Scarface was two years earlier. She wasn't a superstar yet. She's one of the most beautiful women in the world and a damn fine actress.

    8ad434ada424d8f95fba3e0453a72c56.jpg



    And I think Elle MacPherson could easily have played the girl in the boat in the PTS:

    00753d4f29c86653e800b406c37a79d4.jpg

    Y'know , it could've been interesting if Streep was Amasova (remember she was unknown in '76) and Broccoli prolly would've accepted her fee unlike the actress who wanted too much money.
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    Sorry if I am posting this in the wrong place but today I will watch the living daylights for the first time. I have not seen Timothy Dalton as James Bond and look forward to seeing this film.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I don't know if you've read any of the Bond novels Joshua but Dalton tried to bring as much
    of the literary Bond to screen. Admittedly not to everyone's taste, after all Sir Roger was a
    hard act to follow.
    Hopefully you'll have an enjoyable afternoon. :)
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    I don't know if you've read any of the Bond novels Joshua but Dalton tried to bring as much
    of the literary Bond to screen. Admittedly not to everyone's taste, after all Sir Roger was a
    hard act to follow.
    Hopefully you'll have an enjoyable afternoon. :)

    I tried to read casino royal but my reading of English is not good enough so I only read some of it. I liked all the James Bond actors I have seen so far and hope I will like Timothy Dalton also.
  • JoshuaJoshua Posts: 1,138MI6 Agent
    I saw the living daylight for the first time. I did not really enjoy it as much as the other James Bond films. I think the story was not really good. Timothy Dalton was good but I didn't really like everything about this film. I will watch lisence to kill next week. I hope this is the better film.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    Have you seen his tears?
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Dirty PunkerDirty Punker ...Your Eyes Only, darling."Posts: 2,587MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:
    Have you seen his tears?
    With all of this dry humour, we needed a bit of lubrication.
    a reasonable rate of return
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    I think Moore's claim to not want to continue with Bond after MR was just a bargaining ploy. Replacing him was no easy business as really it was just him and Connery up to that point, a new actor could have been a new Lazenby, and some take that view about Dalton anyway.

    What else would Moore have done for that kind of money? He was Bond and Bond was him, there were no other options.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
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