I have to ask for a source for the part about 62 mosques in greater Manchester. i know wikipedia isn't watertight, but they only list four in northwest England.
I have to ask for a source for the part about 62 mosques in greater Manchester. i know wikipedia isn't watertight, but they only list four in northwest England.
Manchester is about 12 miles away...I've been to many gigs at the Manchester Arena but on this occasion neither myself or any family members were there...
And we all know how much an Ariana Grande fan you are :v
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I speak purely for the UK here, but government is on at least its 3rd version of CONTEST. The aim of CONTEST is to reduce the risk to the UK and its interests overseas from terrorism, so that people can go about their lives freely and with confidence.
The scope of this revised CONTEST strategy has been broadened to cover all forms of terrorism.
The counter-terrorism strategy will continue to be organised around 4 workstreams, each comprising a number of key objectives
Pursue: to stop terrorist attacks
Prevent: to stop people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism
Protect: to strengthen our protection against a terrorist attack
Prepare: to mitigate the impact of a terrorist attack
We have been very successful on all but one. The issue we are having is with the biggest one but has the least funding and its reducing, PREVENT but has the widest reach. We can arm police, we can increase security sources and we can blame politicians but that is about the immediate impact or after effect.
The biggest issue to be tackled is how to prevent people becoming so radicalised they turn to terrorism in the extreme. To really tackle this you have to deal with it at source (Foreign Policy) and home (Home Policy) and in the Communities (Local Policy). Tackling radicalism at source is a Global problem as these attacks take a more global nature. I am sure it will come to a point where internationally a solution is sought to neutralise the ISIS chain of command probably through direct action, remove their ability to spread the word via the internet and other means (yes big companies you have a social responsibility so step up) and prevent them resurrecting elsewhere.
Home policy is within our control, so if you are on our watch list through intelligence there is a reason so you get lifted (following Col Kemps and Chriscops approach of evidence based review by Judges to make the call). Once interned (and lets be realistic it is what it is) we then begin the path to re education (de radicalising to given them the true meaning of Islam). But make no mistake it should not a a picnic in order to deter. Foreigners should be returned to source via security source routes (one agency to another) so the local governments can deal with as they see fit. All UK citizens on the list have passports removed to stop free movement and remove UK protection to them as UK citizens, a clear policy you go you never come back (not even in a box). It has to be a case of tough love.
The there is Local policy, it is clear many of these terrorists come from a certain section of society. In part and for many reasons these parts of society have felt they do not belong or have made their own sub communities within the UK but outside the local wider community sphere. They know they have a problem as we all do. Now is their chance to integrate further in the UK and part of their wider communities by saying themselves enough is enough. The decent folk in these societies should stand united with the rest of the country and should root out the extremists in their midst. Hand them over to the security services. Actions speak louder than words, things have progressed too far now. The government can help here through community support and policing (the one area of decline over the years). It is proven dealing with such issues by communities coming together within the community and policed effectively you can curtail the freedom of radicalised individuals. Of course there is not substitute to good old fashioned good parenting at source as well. BUT this will take time, money and a huge effort to be effective and will take longer than any government term of office.
So as you see there is no one quick fix, for the future it is not 'if' but 'when', we have to be lucky every day they only have to be lucky once. So there will be more attacks not just in the UK but globally (I think it very telling when the Taliban start denouncing ISIS). However have no fear if you perpetrate such acts you will be dispatched swiftly to you maker one way or another. Lastly do not give these people the air time its what they seek and they do not deserve it, as harsh as that sounds. If we did not care who they were and what they did (as crazy as that sounds) it would remove some of the kudos for them in the first place.
I leave you with this thought - how do you negotiate with a suicide bomber - simple answer is you cannot, prevention further upstream before that point is the only way.
Cheers :007)
My name is Bond, Basildon Bond - I have letters after my name!
I speak purely for the UK here, but government is on at least its 3rd version of CONTEST. The aim of CONTEST is to reduce the risk to the UK and its interests overseas from terrorism, so that people can go about their lives freely and with confidence.
The scope of this revised CONTEST strategy has been broadened to cover all forms of terrorism.
The counter-terrorism strategy will continue to be organised around 4 workstreams, each comprising a number of key objectives
Pursue: to stop terrorist attacks
Prevent: to stop people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism
Protect: to strengthen our protection against a terrorist attack
Prepare: to mitigate the impact of a terrorist attack
We have been very successful on all but one. The issue we are having is with the biggest one but has the least funding and its reducing, PREVENT but has the widest reach. We can arm police, we can increase security sources and we can blame politicians but that is about the immediate impact or after effect.
The biggest issue to be tackled is how to prevent people becoming so radicalised they turn to terrorism in the extreme. To really tackle this you have to deal with it at source (Foreign Policy) and home (Home Policy) and in the Communities (Local Policy). Tackling radicalism at source is a Global problem as these attacks take a more global nature. I am sure it will come to a point where internationally a solution is sought to neutralise the ISIS chain of command probably through direct action, remove their ability to spread the word via the internet and other means (yes big companies you have a social responsibility so step up) and prevent them resurrecting elsewhere.
Home policy is within our control, so if you are on our watch list through intelligence there is a reason so you get lifted (following Col Kemps and Chriscops approach of evidence based review by Judges to make the call). Once interned (and lets be realistic it is what it is) we then begin the path to re education (de radicalising to given them the true meaning of Islam). But make no mistake it should not a a picnic in order to deter. Foreigners should be returned to source via security source routes (one agency to another) so the local governments can deal with as they see fit. All UK citizens on the list have passports removed to stop free movement and remove UK protection to them as UK citizens, a clear policy you go you never come back (not even in a box). It has to be a case of tough love.
The there is Local policy, it is clear many of these terrorists come from a certain section of society. In part and for many reasons these parts of society have felt they do not belong or have made their own sub communities within the UK but outside the local wider community sphere. They know they have a problem as we all do. Now is their chance to integrate further in the UK and part of their wider communities by saying themselves enough is enough. The decent folk in these societies should stand united with the rest of the country and should root out the extremists in their midst. Hand them over to the security services. Actions speak louder than words, things have progressed too far now. The government can help here through community support and policing (the one area of decline over the years). It is proven dealing with such issues by communities coming together within the community and policed effectively you can curtail the freedom of radicalised individuals. Of course there is not substitute to good old fashioned good parenting at source as well. BUT this will take time, money and a huge effort to be effective and will take longer than any government term of office.
So as you see there is no one quick fix, for the future it is not 'if' but 'when', we have to be lucky every day they only have to be lucky once. So there will be more attacks not just in the UK but globally (I think it very telling when the Taliban start denouncing ISIS). However have no fear if you perpetrate such acts you will be dispatched swiftly to you maker one way or another. Lastly do not give these people the air time its what they seek and they do not deserve it, as harsh as that sounds. If we did not care who they were and what they did (as crazy as that sounds) it would remove some of the kudos for them in the first place.
I leave you with this thought - how do you negotiate with a suicide bomber - simple answer is you cannot, prevention further upstream before that point is the only way.
There are 62 mosques in Greater Manchester...with more being built all the time...
You think correctly -{
I have to ask for a source for the part about 62 mosques in greater Manchester. i know wikipedia isn't watertight, but they only list four in northwest England.
I speak purely for the UK here, but government is on at least its 3rd version of CONTEST. The aim of CONTEST is to reduce the risk to the UK and its interests overseas from terrorism, so that people can go about their lives freely and with confidence.
The scope of this revised CONTEST strategy has been broadened to cover all forms of terrorism.
The counter-terrorism strategy will continue to be organised around 4 workstreams, each comprising a number of key objectives
Pursue: to stop terrorist attacks
Prevent: to stop people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism
Protect: to strengthen our protection against a terrorist attack
Prepare: to mitigate the impact of a terrorist attack
We have been very successful on all but one. The issue we are having is with the biggest one but has the least funding and its reducing, PREVENT but has the widest reach. We can arm police, we can increase security sources and we can blame politicians but that is about the immediate impact or after effect.
The biggest issue to be tackled is how to prevent people becoming so radicalised they turn to terrorism in the extreme. To really tackle this you have to deal with it at source (Foreign Policy) and home (Home Policy) and in the Communities (Local Policy). Tackling radicalism at source is a Global problem as these attacks take a more global nature. I am sure it will come to a point where internationally a solution is sought to neutralise the ISIS chain of command probably through direct action, remove their ability to spread the word via the internet and other means (yes big companies you have a social responsibility so step up) and prevent them resurrecting elsewhere.
Home policy is within our control, so if you are on our watch list through intelligence there is a reason so you get lifted (following Col Kemps and Chriscops approach of evidence based review by Judges to make the call). Once interned (and lets be realistic it is what it is) we then begin the path to re education (de radicalising to given them the true meaning of Islam). But make no mistake it should not a a picnic in order to deter. Foreigners should be returned to source via security source routes (one agency to another) so the local governments can deal with as they see fit. All UK citizens on the list have passports removed to stop free movement and remove UK protection to them as UK citizens, a clear policy you go you never come back (not even in a box). It has to be a case of tough love.
The there is Local policy, it is clear many of these terrorists come from a certain section of society. In part and for many reasons these parts of society have felt they do not belong or have made their own sub communities within the UK but outside the local wider community sphere. They know they have a problem as we all do. Now is their chance to integrate further in the UK and part of their wider communities by saying themselves enough is enough. The decent folk in these societies should stand united with the rest of the country and should root out the extremists in their midst. Hand them over to the security services. Actions speak louder than words, things have progressed too far now. The government can help here through community support and policing (the one area of decline over the years). It is proven dealing with such issues by communities coming together within the community and policed effectively you can curtail the freedom of radicalised individuals. Of course there is not substitute to good old fashioned good parenting at source as well. BUT this will take time, money and a huge effort to be effective and will take longer than any government term of office.
So as you see there is no one quick fix, for the future it is not 'if' but 'when', we have to be lucky every day they only have to be lucky once. So there will be more attacks not just in the UK but globally (I think it very telling when the Taliban start denouncing ISIS). However have no fear if you perpetrate such acts you will be dispatched swiftly to you maker one way or another. Lastly do not give these people the air time its what they seek and they do not deserve it, as harsh as that sounds. If we did not care who they were and what they did (as crazy as that sounds) it would remove some of the kudos for them in the first place.
I leave you with this thought - how do you negotiate with a suicide bomber - simple answer is you cannot, prevention further upstream before that point is the only way.
The thing with terrorism, and I am not pointing at any specific "cause", is that it is in short a form of guerrilla warfare. One of the most important aspects to having any sort of success in conducting such warfare is that you will need local (or close by to your ao) support sympathetic to your activities.
IRA went to Ireland, all myriad red factions roaming the Europe in the -60's and -70's had friends in the DDR and other Warsaw pact countries, these current crop of terrorists have safe havens in the very communities they live in.
The number one priority in combating this curse must be to deny these potential attackers of this local support, to take the legitimacy of their "cause" away from them and to have their own communities, at home and abroad, to turn against them.
A terror campaign can not survive with out support, and that support should be the no. 1 target of any national and international ct effort.
That and bus loads of Millwall fans....
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
While a guerilla warfare and terrorism can be related. WWII SOE agent Gunnar Sønsteby was consulted by the CIA after 9/11 because Sønsteby knew how to run an illegal organisation in enemy-held territory. But there is at least one major difference: When a guerilla organisation attacks it's usually because of the military value of the target. When a terrorist organisation attacks it's usually because of the shock value of the target, because media and fear is the oxygen of terrorism. A guerilla force can win a war without being mentioned in the media, terrorists can't.
Local support is very important to both guerillas and terrorists, especially guerillas. That's why working with the immigrant population and integrating them is an important key to winning the war on terror. If you alienate most of the immigrant population you have a huge problem.
Living in Warrington, and before that, in Oldham for almost 20 years, I can testify to the huge number of mosques in and around Greater Manchester. That in itself isn't an issue, but the policing (or governance as I don't mean the Police) of these places of worship must be subject to increased scrutiny in my opinion.
Radicalisation starts at a tender age these days - I am aware of an incident involving a 6 year old Muslim child who was referred to the authorities for telling their class-mates that they would burn forever as they were non-believers and were unclean. This child hasn't just dreamed up these things - they've been taught them from somewhere - their parents most likely, or an older sibling.
As has been said prior on this thread, the Muslim community must not be afraid to inform the authorities of incidents like this - they have to uphold and demonstrate the peaceful nature that is always talked about as being the truth of Islam after any of these attacks by Muslims.
As regards disposal of the bodies of the perpetrators of these crimes, all I'd say is that they should be cremated in as cheap a way as possible and then the ashes put into the nearest landfill site. Did Bin Laden get a grave? He was thrown overboard in the gulf somewhere wasn't he?
But successful integration needs a willingness to do so by all parties involved. The problem we are encountering is that some have no desire to integrate with the established society. Parralels were and are being drawn in the UK with the influx of West Indians who were legitimately able to live in UK when they were rightly given British citizenship, but at that time they were victims of intolerance purely due to skin colour. but by and large integration has been successful, with many in the muslim community they actively seek not to integrate and that's their issue to resolve.
The uncomfortable truth is that we all know this but to openly discuss it in a rational matter is instantly closed down with calls of racism etc. Of course we compound this by doing things like paying millions of pounds out if NHS budgets to pay for interpreters, printing school letters and government forms etc in multiple languages. Having different planning laws for Muslims, etc. The other point is that many jihadists on the watch list are 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation British born, and who's relatives came here to escape brutal regimes it's ironic that they would then have grandsons who support the most brutal of movements.
Does this look like integration?
Can anyone think or name a taoist or Buddhist temple that dominates an area like so many mosques do?
While a guerilla warfare and terrorism can be related. WWII SOE agent Gunnar Sønsteby was consulted by the CIA after 9/11 because Sønsteby knew how to run an illegal organisation in enemy-held territory. But there is at least one major difference: When a guerilla organisation attacks it's usually because of the military value of the target. When a terrorist organisation attacks it's usually because of the shock value of the target, because media and fear is the oxygen of terrorism. A guerilla force can win a war without being mentioned in the media, terrorists can't.
Local support is very important to both guerillas and terrorists, especially guerillas. That's why working with the immigrant population and integrating them is an important key to winning the war on terror. If you alienate most of the immigrant population you have a huge problem.
Well said! Although, one must take into account that because fear is the oxygen of the terrorism and media coverage stokes the flames of fear, targets that have shock value are the targets that have "military" value to the terrorist organisation.
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
While a guerilla warfare and terrorism can be related. WWII SOE agent Gunnar Sønsteby was consulted by the CIA after 9/11 because Sønsteby knew how to run an illegal organisation in enemy-held territory. But there is at least one major difference: When a guerilla organisation attacks it's usually because of the military value of the target. When a terrorist organisation attacks it's usually because of the shock value of the target, because media and fear is the oxygen of terrorism. A guerilla force can win a war without being mentioned in the media, terrorists can't.
Local support is very important to both guerillas and terrorists, especially guerillas. That's why working with the immigrant population and integrating them is an important key to winning the war on terror. If you alienate most of the immigrant population you have a huge problem.
Well said! Although, one must take into account that because fear is the oxygen of the terrorism and media coverage stokes the flames of fear, targets that have shock value are the targets that have "military" value to the terrorist organisation.
This is true and of course these terrorists consider themselves as soldiers, I think it's time we treated them like it too.
But successful integration needs a willingness to do so by all parties involved. The problem we are encountering is that some have no desire to integrate with the established society. Parralels were and are being drawn in the UK with the influx of West Indians who were legitimately able to live in UK when they were rightly given British citizenship, but at that time they were victims of intolerance purely due to skin colour. but by and large integration has been successful, with many in the muslim community they actively seek not to integrate and that's their issue to resolve.
The uncomfortable truth is that we all know this but to openly discuss it in a rational matter is instantly closed down with calls of racism etc. Of course we compound this by doing things like paying millions of pounds out if NHS budgets to pay for interpreters, printing school letters and government forms etc in multiple languages. Having different planning laws for Muslims, etc. The other point is that many jihadists on the watch list are 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation British born, and who's relatives came here to escape brutal regimes it's ironic that they would then have grandsons who support the most brutal of movements.
Does this look like integration?
Can anyone think or name a taoist or Buddhist temple that dominates an area like so many mosques do?
I am not too optimistic that you can re-educate or de-radicalise these people.
Imo, we must begin much earlier with education, education, education.
As an example, in german mosques, all Imans are paid and chosen by a turkey organisation and are sent from Turkey or Saudi Arabia. Which means that they have no idea what the western society is like.
Imo this must change immediately - how is that in the UK?
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I think the idea of starting to educate imams in our universities instead of importing them from countries like Pakistan where they went to Saudi or Quatar-funded schools would be a smart move.
I am not too optimistic that you can re-educate or de-radicalise these people.
Imo, we must begin much earlier with education, education, education.
As an example, in german mosques, all Imans are paid and chosen by a turkey organisation and are sent from Turkey or Saudi Arabia. Which means that they have no idea what the western society is like.
Imo this must change immediately - how is that in the UK?
Very similar I think Higgins, this kind of thing will be modus operandi. In fact it's worth pointing out that such is the segregation some parts of the UK look more like Lahore, with people making food on the door step, naked children and impromptu markets
It was either that.....or the priesthood
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,762Chief of Staff
I have to ask for a source for the part about 62 mosques in greater Manchester. i know wikipedia isn't watertight, but they only list four in northwest England.
I can see more than four from my bedroom window )
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,762Chief of Staff
Manchester is about 12 miles away...I've been to many gigs at the Manchester Arena but on this occasion neither myself or any family members were there...
And we all know how much an Ariana Grande fan you are :v
Even though I'm a US citizen, my grandparents came from Scotland and both my grandfathers served in the British armed forces during WWII. I also worked with members of the British armed forces while posted to the NATO base in Naples, Italy in the 1970's. I distinctly remember how badly we felt for them when the IRA seemed to be terrorizing everyone by setting off bombs left and right everywhere. There was the June 1974 bombing of the Houses of Parliament that caused extensive damage and injuring eleven people. There was the Birmingham pub bombings in November '74, when bombs exploded in two pubs in central Birmingham killed 21 people and injured 182 others. There was the Brighton hotel bombing
in 1984 where they tried killing Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet, who were staying at the hotel for the Conservative Party conference. Thatcher narrowly escaped injury, but five people were killed including a sitting Conservative MP, and 31 were injured. There was the Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings in July 1982, that killed 11 military personnel: four soldiers of the Blues & Royals at Hyde Park, and seven bandsmen of the Royal Green Jackets at Regent's Park. Seven of the Blues & Royals' horses also died in the attack. I remember how shocking the images were of the dead horses lying in the street. There was the car bomb that exploded outside Harrods department store in December 1983 that killed three police officers and three civilians, injured 90 people, and caused a lot of property damage. There was the bombing in July '90 at the London Stock Exchange that didn't kill anyone but it ripped a hole in the building and sent a shower of glass and concrete onto the street. Then there was the ONE TON centex bomb in April '92 that partially demolished the facade of the Baltic Exchange building in London, extensively damaged the rest of the building, killed three and injured another 91. The bomb also caused damage to surrounding buildings, many of which were also badly damaged by the Bishopsgate bombing the following year. The exchange was so damage it ended up being totally demolished later as it could not be saved. Then there was the Manchester bombing that preceded the recent one - which took place in '96. A truck bomb was used on Corporation Street in the centre of Manchester and it was the biggest bomb detonated in Great Britain since WWII. It targeted the city's infrastructure and economy and caused devastating damage – only surpassed by the 2001 September 11 Attacks and 1993 Bishopsgate bombing in terms of financial cost.
I realize that the recent attacks are devestating to the relative sense of calm and peace that most people there experience from day to day and that the fact that innocent civilians and children are being maimed and paralyzed for life and murdered is insane and unfathomable to us. However, I there is a whole generation - and I know many personally, who did not live through those horrible times and many who were not even aware of the ones I listed had ever having taken place. I point this out just to highlight the fact that the England has suffered through some horrific times before - whether it be by the hands of Hitler or the IRA, and yet kept true to the character, laws and morals that has made it one of the historic models of advanced western civilization. My optimism may be flawed - but I have a feeling that England will "carry on" and do what is right no matter what is thrown at it now or in the near future.
Your list is what was regarded as "soft targets" and yes this was something we had not seen before. Utter public outrage followed these attacks however the financial backing for the IRA came from the US. In later attacks they would identify themselves by a recognised codename so you had a chance to reduce civilian casualties before detonation which is something these current buggers wouldn't do. Without going into history or politics google The Black and Tans and that may give a slight hint as to why The Irish Republican Army hated The British Military Machine. I've been in London for a number of the events of devastation you mentioned and am still working there through the current ones & trust me there is nothing worse than a nutter who wants to die and take as many casualties with him in the process. You can't plan against it but through intelligence gathering you may be able to take pre-emptive action. You certainly can't prevent it if someone wants to martyr himself unless you terminate with maximum prejudice at source and that means taking the fight to the country of origin & cutting the head off the beast as well as taking steps already mentioned so eloquently by other posters -{
Even though I'm a US citizen, my grandparents came from Scotland and both my grandfathers served in the British armed forces during WWII. I also worked with members of the British armed forces while posted to the NATO base in Naples, Italy in the 1970's. I distinctly remember how badly we felt for them when the IRA seemed to be terrorizing everyone by setting off bombs left and right everywhere. There was the June 1974 bombing of the Houses of Parliament that caused extensive damage and injuring eleven people. There was the Birmingham pub bombings in November '74, when bombs exploded in two pubs in central Birmingham killed 21 people and injured 182 others. There was the Brighton hotel bombing
in 1984 where they tried killing Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet, who were staying at the hotel for the Conservative Party conference. Thatcher narrowly escaped injury, but five people were killed including a sitting Conservative MP, and 31 were injured. There was the Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings in July 1982, that killed 11 military personnel: four soldiers of the Blues & Royals at Hyde Park, and seven bandsmen of the Royal Green Jackets at Regent's Park. Seven of the Blues & Royals' horses also died in the attack. I remember how shocking the images were of the dead horses lying in the street. There was the car bomb that exploded outside Harrods department store in December 1983 that killed three police officers and three civilians, injured 90 people, and caused a lot of property damage. There was the bombing in July '90 at the London Stock Exchange that didn't kill anyone but it ripped a hole in the building and sent a shower of glass and concrete onto the street. Then there was the ONE TON centex bomb in April '92 that partially demolished the facade of the Baltic Exchange building in London, extensively damaged the rest of the building, killed three and injured another 91. The bomb also caused damage to surrounding buildings, many of which were also badly damaged by the Bishopsgate bombing the following year. The exchange was so damage it ended up being totally demolished later as it could not be saved. Then there was the Manchester bombing that preceded the recent one - which took place in '96. A truck bomb was used on Corporation Street in the centre of Manchester and it was the biggest bomb detonated in Great Britain since WWII. It targeted the city's infrastructure and economy and caused devastating damage – only surpassed by the 2001 September 11 Attacks and 1993 Bishopsgate bombing in terms of financial cost.
I realize that the recent attacks are devestating to the relative sense of calm and peace that most people there experience from day to day and that the fact that innocent civilians and children are being maimed and paralyzed for life and murdered is insane and unfathomable to us. However, I there is a whole generation - and I know many personally, who did not live through those horrible times and many who were not even aware of the ones I listed had ever having taken place. I point this out just to highlight the fact that the England has suffered through some horrific times before - whether it be by the hands of Hitler or the IRA, and yet kept true to the character, laws and morals that has made it one of the historic models of advanced western civilization. My optimism may be flawed - but I have a feeling that England will "carry on" and do what is right no matter what is thrown at it now or in the near future.
Thanks for that. I'm certain you are right.
You've missed out a lot of IRA attacks, but they are so numerous you'd need a couple of hours to list them all, other notable ones that stick in my mind are
The murder of Lord Mountbatten and his son when they blew his boat up
Mortar attacks on Downing St and Heathrow
The Warrington bin bomb that killed the schoolboys.
And the speight of attacks on military bases and training centres.
I remember all the bins in the city centre where I lived being removed after the Warrington bomb, weirdly I noticed the other week in Leeds train station the absence of bins as a security measure.
The IRA attacks were targeted. The current attacks are not. They are literally any place, any gathering, anyone. How the hell do you plan against that?
Comments
It's not the whole reason why I like it - but it's a good place to start
Class -{
I have to ask for a source for the part about 62 mosques in greater Manchester. i know wikipedia isn't watertight, but they only list four in northwest England.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://mosques.muslimsinbritain.org/show-browse.php%3Ftown%3DManchester&ved=0ahUKEwja9N_co6rUAhXBL8AKHdmvDZAQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNF8Vyb_23luOcyKsdoK7ZMi4npq1A&sig2=kGUvYbYg1glS0y3w-vi2iQ
And we all know how much an Ariana Grande fan you are :v
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The scope of this revised CONTEST strategy has been broadened to cover all forms of terrorism.
The counter-terrorism strategy will continue to be organised around 4 workstreams, each comprising a number of key objectives
Pursue: to stop terrorist attacks
Prevent: to stop people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism
Protect: to strengthen our protection against a terrorist attack
Prepare: to mitigate the impact of a terrorist attack
We have been very successful on all but one. The issue we are having is with the biggest one but has the least funding and its reducing, PREVENT but has the widest reach. We can arm police, we can increase security sources and we can blame politicians but that is about the immediate impact or after effect.
The biggest issue to be tackled is how to prevent people becoming so radicalised they turn to terrorism in the extreme. To really tackle this you have to deal with it at source (Foreign Policy) and home (Home Policy) and in the Communities (Local Policy). Tackling radicalism at source is a Global problem as these attacks take a more global nature. I am sure it will come to a point where internationally a solution is sought to neutralise the ISIS chain of command probably through direct action, remove their ability to spread the word via the internet and other means (yes big companies you have a social responsibility so step up) and prevent them resurrecting elsewhere.
Home policy is within our control, so if you are on our watch list through intelligence there is a reason so you get lifted (following Col Kemps and Chriscops approach of evidence based review by Judges to make the call). Once interned (and lets be realistic it is what it is) we then begin the path to re education (de radicalising to given them the true meaning of Islam). But make no mistake it should not a a picnic in order to deter. Foreigners should be returned to source via security source routes (one agency to another) so the local governments can deal with as they see fit. All UK citizens on the list have passports removed to stop free movement and remove UK protection to them as UK citizens, a clear policy you go you never come back (not even in a box). It has to be a case of tough love.
The there is Local policy, it is clear many of these terrorists come from a certain section of society. In part and for many reasons these parts of society have felt they do not belong or have made their own sub communities within the UK but outside the local wider community sphere. They know they have a problem as we all do. Now is their chance to integrate further in the UK and part of their wider communities by saying themselves enough is enough. The decent folk in these societies should stand united with the rest of the country and should root out the extremists in their midst. Hand them over to the security services. Actions speak louder than words, things have progressed too far now. The government can help here through community support and policing (the one area of decline over the years). It is proven dealing with such issues by communities coming together within the community and policed effectively you can curtail the freedom of radicalised individuals. Of course there is not substitute to good old fashioned good parenting at source as well. BUT this will take time, money and a huge effort to be effective and will take longer than any government term of office.
So as you see there is no one quick fix, for the future it is not 'if' but 'when', we have to be lucky every day they only have to be lucky once. So there will be more attacks not just in the UK but globally (I think it very telling when the Taliban start denouncing ISIS). However have no fear if you perpetrate such acts you will be dispatched swiftly to you maker one way or another. Lastly do not give these people the air time its what they seek and they do not deserve it, as harsh as that sounds. If we did not care who they were and what they did (as crazy as that sounds) it would remove some of the kudos for them in the first place.
I leave you with this thought - how do you negotiate with a suicide bomber - simple answer is you cannot, prevention further upstream before that point is the only way.
Cheers :007)
It seems so. It just shows how importent it is to check the facts.
Well put on all counts! -{
IRA went to Ireland, all myriad red factions roaming the Europe in the -60's and -70's had friends in the DDR and other Warsaw pact countries, these current crop of terrorists have safe havens in the very communities they live in.
The number one priority in combating this curse must be to deny these potential attackers of this local support, to take the legitimacy of their "cause" away from them and to have their own communities, at home and abroad, to turn against them.
A terror campaign can not survive with out support, and that support should be the no. 1 target of any national and international ct effort.
That and bus loads of Millwall fans....
-Mr Arlington Beech
Local support is very important to both guerillas and terrorists, especially guerillas. That's why working with the immigrant population and integrating them is an important key to winning the war on terror. If you alienate most of the immigrant population you have a huge problem.
Radicalisation starts at a tender age these days - I am aware of an incident involving a 6 year old Muslim child who was referred to the authorities for telling their class-mates that they would burn forever as they were non-believers and were unclean. This child hasn't just dreamed up these things - they've been taught them from somewhere - their parents most likely, or an older sibling.
As has been said prior on this thread, the Muslim community must not be afraid to inform the authorities of incidents like this - they have to uphold and demonstrate the peaceful nature that is always talked about as being the truth of Islam after any of these attacks by Muslims.
As regards disposal of the bodies of the perpetrators of these crimes, all I'd say is that they should be cremated in as cheap a way as possible and then the ashes put into the nearest landfill site. Did Bin Laden get a grave? He was thrown overboard in the gulf somewhere wasn't he?
The uncomfortable truth is that we all know this but to openly discuss it in a rational matter is instantly closed down with calls of racism etc. Of course we compound this by doing things like paying millions of pounds out if NHS budgets to pay for interpreters, printing school letters and government forms etc in multiple languages. Having different planning laws for Muslims, etc. The other point is that many jihadists on the watch list are 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation British born, and who's relatives came here to escape brutal regimes it's ironic that they would then have grandsons who support the most brutal of movements.
Does this look like integration?
Can anyone think or name a taoist or Buddhist temple that dominates an area like so many mosques do?
Well said! Although, one must take into account that because fear is the oxygen of the terrorism and media coverage stokes the flames of fear, targets that have shock value are the targets that have "military" value to the terrorist organisation.
-Mr Arlington Beech
This is true and of course these terrorists consider themselves as soldiers, I think it's time we treated them like it too.
What he said +1
Imo, we must begin much earlier with education, education, education.
As an example, in german mosques, all Imans are paid and chosen by a turkey organisation and are sent from Turkey or Saudi Arabia. Which means that they have no idea what the western society is like.
Imo this must change immediately - how is that in the UK?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Very similar I think Higgins, this kind of thing will be modus operandi. In fact it's worth pointing out that such is the segregation some parts of the UK look more like Lahore, with people making food on the door step, naked children and impromptu markets
I can see more than four from my bedroom window
Actually I'd never heard of her before ;%
Yeah been a little busy recently - you know me man of few words.
Cheers :007)
in 1984 where they tried killing Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet, who were staying at the hotel for the Conservative Party conference. Thatcher narrowly escaped injury, but five people were killed including a sitting Conservative MP, and 31 were injured. There was the Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings in July 1982, that killed 11 military personnel: four soldiers of the Blues & Royals at Hyde Park, and seven bandsmen of the Royal Green Jackets at Regent's Park. Seven of the Blues & Royals' horses also died in the attack. I remember how shocking the images were of the dead horses lying in the street. There was the car bomb that exploded outside Harrods department store in December 1983 that killed three police officers and three civilians, injured 90 people, and caused a lot of property damage. There was the bombing in July '90 at the London Stock Exchange that didn't kill anyone but it ripped a hole in the building and sent a shower of glass and concrete onto the street. Then there was the ONE TON centex bomb in April '92 that partially demolished the facade of the Baltic Exchange building in London, extensively damaged the rest of the building, killed three and injured another 91. The bomb also caused damage to surrounding buildings, many of which were also badly damaged by the Bishopsgate bombing the following year. The exchange was so damage it ended up being totally demolished later as it could not be saved. Then there was the Manchester bombing that preceded the recent one - which took place in '96. A truck bomb was used on Corporation Street in the centre of Manchester and it was the biggest bomb detonated in Great Britain since WWII. It targeted the city's infrastructure and economy and caused devastating damage – only surpassed by the 2001 September 11 Attacks and 1993 Bishopsgate bombing in terms of financial cost.
I realize that the recent attacks are devestating to the relative sense of calm and peace that most people there experience from day to day and that the fact that innocent civilians and children are being maimed and paralyzed for life and murdered is insane and unfathomable to us. However, I there is a whole generation - and I know many personally, who did not live through those horrible times and many who were not even aware of the ones I listed had ever having taken place. I point this out just to highlight the fact that the England has suffered through some horrific times before - whether it be by the hands of Hitler or the IRA, and yet kept true to the character, laws and morals that has made it one of the historic models of advanced western civilization. My optimism may be flawed - but I have a feeling that England will "carry on" and do what is right no matter what is thrown at it now or in the near future.
Thanks for that. I'm certain you are right.
You've missed out a lot of IRA attacks, but they are so numerous you'd need a couple of hours to list them all, other notable ones that stick in my mind are
The murder of Lord Mountbatten and his son when they blew his boat up
Mortar attacks on Downing St and Heathrow
The Warrington bin bomb that killed the schoolboys.
And the speight of attacks on military bases and training centres.
I remember all the bins in the city centre where I lived being removed after the Warrington bomb, weirdly I noticed the other week in Leeds train station the absence of bins as a security measure.
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2014/mar/31/airey-neave-mp-assassination-bomb
The IRA attacks were targeted. The current attacks are not. They are literally any place, any gathering, anyone. How the hell do you plan against that?