It's the first time in history a nerve gas was used in Europe. It was done with a nerve gas produced in the Soviet Union and Russian Secret Service had an obvious motive. I'd say the attack was done rgis way to send a message. In my opinion Russia has been testing how far they can go for years now, it's time to say "stop".
Some years ago, Pollonium has been used to assassinate a russian spy.
I see that potentially as dangerous as the recent nerve agent
While I don‘t object that nerve gas gives it a new dimension by a small margin, killing of spies has always been done - by Russia, by the UK, by the US and many more - for centuries.
I don‘t think that Putin was testing boundaries and if he did, the moving of 100 embassy staff back to Moscow will not be enough to stop him. He has other ways to split and divide us and Trump is not really helpful in showing him a clear stop sign.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Just having seen the interview with the Cambridge Analytica Wistleblower, I think that it‘s about time to question the outcome of the Brexit vote.
According to him, CA was heavily involved on the Brexit side, there have been massive financial supports by unknown sides.
„They started with 40%, then CA subsidiaries where involved. Voters have been analysed, targetted and sent into a tunnel of lies and fears“
I am watching this all to develop - I wouldn‘t totally rule out another referendum in next year. The pressure will increase in the next months.
T. May exposed Russia to be an enemy with a hybrid warfare, so, why shouldn‘t they have been manipulating that vote as well?
Pretty sure with similar tactics, they turned the tide for Trump
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
To be honest, imo, this is all blown out of proportion (probably to show what a great leader T. May can be after all her screwups).
I'm not sure that expelling a few diplomats is an "out of proportion" response to the use of a nerve agent to attempt to murder people on British soil, and the clear message it signals from Russia - what would you consider an appropriate response, Higgins?
Germany has expelled four Russian diplomats in solidarity, I didn't realise that Frau Merkel was so keen to show what a great leader Theresa May is, but I'm grateful nonetheless. :007)
You probably deliberately put the wrong context to my quote, naughty boy
The „ blown out of proportion“ was not connected to the expelling of embassy staff.
Russian spies have been killed for centuries and so where spies killed by the UK, the US and other countries.
Alexander Litwinenko was killed over 10 years ago in a similar manner and the sanctions have been practically nonexistent.
To me there is not much new in the recent Salisbury events - that‘s why I find the outrage a bit out of proportion and it mostly serves to give Mrs. May the opportunity to distract from her screwups and weakness.
What Putin has done in the last decade and is still doing - disrupt, divide and manipulate western societies is much more severe and important - so far this has slipped almost unnoticed and unpunished.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Have you ever heard of Russian citizens assassinated by western secret service inside Russia? And using WMD's?
This is the second time (I'm thinking of the Livitchenko case) in a few years this has happened in the UK.
Litwinenko was killed with Pollonium, the reactions were little - where is the big difference in 2018?
Polonium is a naturally occurring radioactive chemical element. Novichok is a specially designed chemical weapon - a nerve agent that’s more than double the potency of VX, the agent that was used to kill Kim Jong-un’s half brother last year. That’s the difference between Litvinenko and the UK attack.
Litwinenko was killed with Pollonium, the reactions were little - where is the big difference in 2018?
Old news? Can you name a single Western agent defecting to Russia/USSR who got killed there by Western agents? Have you ever come across a mention of this happening? This is comparable to Mi6 murdering Kim Philby in Moscow using nerve gas.
This isn't old news at all. This is a sensational development.
Litwinenko was killed with Pollonium, the reactions were little - where is the big difference in 2018?
Old news? Can you name a single Western agent defecting to Russia/USSR who got killed there by Western agents? Have you ever come across a mention of this happening? This is comparable to Mi6 murdering Kim Philby in Moscow using nerve gas.
Also note that this assassination atempt in Salisbury was a very clear messages. They didn't make it look like a traffic accident or a suicide. They poisoned him using a WMD that is clearly comes from Russia. This is comparable to MI6 killing Philby in Russia using British made VX gas.
This isn't old news at all. This is a sensational development.
Litwinenko was killed with Pollonium, the reactions were little - where is the big difference in 2018?
Old news? Can you name a single Western agent defecting to Russia/USSR who got killed there by Western agents? Have you ever come across a mention of this happening? This is comparable to Mi6 murdering Kim Philby in Moscow using nerve gas.
This isn't old news at all. This is a sensational development.
I have no intention to be Russia‘s advocate and I have little doubt that Rusia was behind the Salisbury attack
But
It disturbs me that particularly the UK have already made the case without an elaborate and independent investigation.
Let‘s not forget that the USA and the UK not long time ago invaded Iraq based on blatant and deliberately fabricated lies, and we should have all learnt from that.
While I feel with the victims -particularly the policeman - I still fail to see the „new dimension“ of the use of nerve agent - particularly in comparison with the use of Pollonium which went almost unpunished and had the similar effect and range like the nerve agent.
I wish there was the same outrage from our politicians and the press and the citizens everytime that Assad uses his nerve agents and it‘s astounding how the same people try everything to get rid of people from Syria who are trying to escape from the use of the same or similar agent in their own country.
For weeks now, the outrage is high after the use of a minimal dose of the same stuff in the UK while we stay cool and numb - PARTICULARLY AGAINST THE VICTIMS - when it‘s being systematically used in Syria on a large scale.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
For weeks now, the outrage is high after the use of a minimal dose of the same stuff in the UK while we stay cool and numb - PARTICULARLY AGAINST THE VICTIMS - when it‘s being systematically used in Syria on a large scale.
Higgins, I don’t disagree, but we have to start somewhere. The number of people killed in gun violence in America is fewer than many other countries, yet many Americans have taken a stand in protest and are doing something about it. Using your analogy, do you think they should stop, just because it happens elsewhere more frequently?
Standing up and protesting, I am all for that, actions against other countries is something else.
Like I said, Mrs. May is a bit too eager in escalating all this (without a finished proper and independent investigation) and I have the feeling that she welcomes the occasion to get her people, the parliament, the press and her allies behind her to distract from the beatings that she has received in the last elections and the Brexit negotiations (which the UK press will certainly see differently - victory on all fronts!!).
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I get where you’re coming from Higgins, I really do, but you’ve just got to understand that like it or not that’s just how the world works. If there are suicide bombings on trains and busses in London, a mass shooting at a school, university, nightclub or music festival in the United States or just one person is targeted and poisoned by a nerve agent in small small city in England, there’s going to be mass media coverage, outrage across western society and governments actually responding and, in most cases, implimenting measures to ensure (to attempt to ensure) the same thing doesn’t happen again. And yes, it does seem incomprehensible to think that in Syria and other neighboring countries shootings and bombings are happening everyday as well as civilians being targeted by chemical weapons and back home it barely makes the news - but like I said, unfortunately that’s just how the world works. Of course any sort of terror attack or mass casualty incident on western soil, far away from any conflict zone is going to have more media coverage and cause far more outrage than the even far worse attacks happening more frequently in a country in the middle of a war or civil conflict.
The sad reality is, while people are aware of the atrocities that are occurring in certain countries in the Middle East and Africa (that’s a whole other discussion), because it doesn’t directly concern them or their way of life, they just don’t care - and while it’s wrong, I don’t see it changing anytime soon.
Totally agree, but I was mainly referring to the repeated questions why I fail to see a new dimension in the recent poisoning.
I have tried to embed it in a bigger picture.
I for my part would be very happy, if people in the west would feel a bit more empathic against people that leave their countries to escape such horror and end up in their countries as refugees.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I see you don't argue that "double agent gets killed all the time" anymore. (BTW: I think he was a defector, not double agent). Can I assume this means you have realized that wasn't a strong argument, Higgins?
The plutonium poisoning of Livechenko didn't get much of a reaction, that's true. Teresa May was the Minister who handled the UK reaction to that attack and she was critizised for being too soft on Russia back then. Perhaps that's part of the reason why she's so though now?
Your point about Syria is a strong one. I can offer no better response than saying "that's how the world works"
An international investigation of the Salisbury incident would have been good, but the evidence seems much stronger than Iraq. I see why the UK don’t bother involving Russia in the investigation. After Livechenko affair they tried to work with the Russians, but the Russians only used the chance to stall and mislead.
I see you don't argue that "double agent gets killed all the time" anymore. (BTW: I think he was a defector, not double agent). Can I assume this means you have realized that wasn't a strong argument, Higgins?
Agents, double agents and defectors get killed all the time
By all nations!
It was always like that!
It just doesn't make sense and it gets boring to repeat it in every post
Teresa May was the Minister who handled the UK reaction to that attack and she was critizised for being too soft on Russia back then. Perhaps that's part of the reason why she's so though now?
Maybe, I find it more likely that she's riding that horse to distract from everything else that went wrong in her leadership in the last months....
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Yes, they get murdered. But not by nerve gas, even obviously made in the country of the killers.
Andnot after they have settle in the country they have defectedto and become a citizen to. I haven asked you to mention examples of this several times, but you never have. If you pretendI didn't ask this time, I'll just presume you don't know of any examples of this.
It's not unlikely May finds this incident helpful in destracting from Brexit and other trouble. But expelling so many "diplomats" and using such sharp language against a major power isn't something a government use just to distract from some tricky negotiations.
This is the first nerve gas attack in Europe and it's obviously done by a state. It's not just some against murder ingen each other usual.
And all those times they had to ask anyone who was near get checked at the hospital shower several times, wash their clothes several times and and the police wore protective suits, right? :v
And you still haven't replied to my questions.
Sometimes no answer is just as revealing as an actual answer.....
Just google ‚killing of spies‘ and you find replies.
We are on a James Bond Forum based on novels by Ian Fleming and you deny that spies are getting killed?
And with that I‘ll leave you thinking that this event had such an extraordinary scale
I get where you’re coming from Higgins, I really do, but you’ve just got to understand that like it or not that’s just how the world works. If there are suicide bombings on trains and busses in London, a mass shooting at a school, university, nightclub or music festival in the United States or just one person is targeted and poisoned by a nerve agent in small small city in England, there’s going to be mass media coverage, outrage across western society and governments actually responding and, in most cases, implimenting measures to ensure (to attempt to ensure) the same thing doesn’t happen again. And yes, it does seem incomprehensible to think that in Syria and other neighboring countries shootings and bombings are happening everyday as well as civilians being targeted by chemical weapons and back home it barely makes the news - but like I said, unfortunately that’s just how the world works. Of course any sort of terror attack or mass casualty incident on western soil, far away from any conflict zone is going to have more media coverage and cause far more outrage than the even far worse attacks happening more frequently in a country in the middle of a war or civil conflict.
The sad reality is, while people are aware of the atrocities that are occurring in certain countries in the Middle East and Africa (that’s a whole other discussion), because it doesn’t directly concern them or their way of life, they just don’t care - and while it’s wrong, I don’t see it changing anytime soon.
You reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from Interstellar, because of how increasingly true it is: "We can care deeply - selflessly - about those we know , but that empathy rarely extends beyond our line of sight".
Basically Salisbury is a poisoning - just like what happened with Pollonium in 2006 and many times before...
True...but Novichok is slightly worse than getting a ‘dicky tummy’ because the salmon was off 8-)
This was a calculated attack on British soil by a foreign power - many other countries agree, including Germany...and this also follows on from other Russian nationals dieing in ‘mysterious circumstances’ in London...at what point do you say “stop”...?...or do you just let Russia get on with murdering people in your country without redress?
Btw, I’m no fan of Teresa May but at least some action has been taken.
Just google ‚killing of spies‘ and you find replies.
We are on a James Bond Forum based on novels by Ian Fleming and you deny that spies are getting killed?
And with that I‘ll leave you thinking that this event had such an extraordinary scale
I didn't ask if spies get killed. I never denied that and that's not the usual aspect of this incident. I asked if you can mention western spies who defected to Russia and then get killed by western intelligence. If the list gets too long you can narrow it down to assassinations made in away that is an obvious "message", perhaps with a NATO-made WMD.
Comments
Some years ago, Pollonium has been used to assassinate a russian spy.
I see that potentially as dangerous as the recent nerve agent
While I don‘t object that nerve gas gives it a new dimension by a small margin, killing of spies has always been done - by Russia, by the UK, by the US and many more - for centuries.
I don‘t think that Putin was testing boundaries and if he did, the moving of 100 embassy staff back to Moscow will not be enough to stop him. He has other ways to split and divide us and Trump is not really helpful in showing him a clear stop sign.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Voted for him ......... three or four times !
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
According to him, CA was heavily involved on the Brexit side, there have been massive financial supports by unknown sides.
„They started with 40%, then CA subsidiaries where involved. Voters have been analysed, targetted and sent into a tunnel of lies and fears“
I am watching this all to develop - I wouldn‘t totally rule out another referendum in next year. The pressure will increase in the next months.
T. May exposed Russia to be an enemy with a hybrid warfare, so, why shouldn‘t they have been manipulating that vote as well?
Pretty sure with similar tactics, they turned the tide for Trump
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Old West Belfast mantra................vote early, vote often.....even if you're dead.
A person voting
You beat me to it, sniperUK.
Probably why NI now has some of the most stringent electoral ID and voting laws in the world! -{
I'm not sure that expelling a few diplomats is an "out of proportion" response to the use of a nerve agent to attempt to murder people on British soil, and the clear message it signals from Russia - what would you consider an appropriate response, Higgins?
Germany has expelled four Russian diplomats in solidarity, I didn't realise that Frau Merkel was so keen to show what a great leader Theresa May is, but I'm grateful nonetheless. :007)
The „ blown out of proportion“ was not connected to the expelling of embassy staff.
Russian spies have been killed for centuries and so where spies killed by the UK, the US and other countries.
Alexander Litwinenko was killed over 10 years ago in a similar manner and the sanctions have been practically nonexistent.
To me there is not much new in the recent Salisbury events - that‘s why I find the outrage a bit out of proportion and it mostly serves to give Mrs. May the opportunity to distract from her screwups and weakness.
What Putin has done in the last decade and is still doing - disrupt, divide and manipulate western societies is much more severe and important - so far this has slipped almost unnoticed and unpunished.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
This is the second time (I'm thinking of the Livitchenko case) in a few years this has happened in the UK.
Litwinenko was killed with Pollonium, the reactions were little - where is the big difference in 2018?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Polonium is a naturally occurring radioactive chemical element. Novichok is a specially designed chemical weapon - a nerve agent that’s more than double the potency of VX, the agent that was used to kill Kim Jong-un’s half brother last year. That’s the difference between Litvinenko and the UK attack.
Old news? Can you name a single Western agent defecting to Russia/USSR who got killed there by Western agents? Have you ever come across a mention of this happening? This is comparable to Mi6 murdering Kim Philby in Moscow using nerve gas.
This isn't old news at all. This is a sensational development.
I have no intention to be Russia‘s advocate and I have little doubt that Rusia was behind the Salisbury attack
But
It disturbs me that particularly the UK have already made the case without an elaborate and independent investigation.
Let‘s not forget that the USA and the UK not long time ago invaded Iraq based on blatant and deliberately fabricated lies, and we should have all learnt from that.
While I feel with the victims -particularly the policeman - I still fail to see the „new dimension“ of the use of nerve agent - particularly in comparison with the use of Pollonium which went almost unpunished and had the similar effect and range like the nerve agent.
I wish there was the same outrage from our politicians and the press and the citizens everytime that Assad uses his nerve agents and it‘s astounding how the same people try everything to get rid of people from Syria who are trying to escape from the use of the same or similar agent in their own country.
For weeks now, the outrage is high after the use of a minimal dose of the same stuff in the UK while we stay cool and numb - PARTICULARLY AGAINST THE VICTIMS - when it‘s being systematically used in Syria on a large scale.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Higgins, I don’t disagree, but we have to start somewhere. The number of people killed in gun violence in America is fewer than many other countries, yet many Americans have taken a stand in protest and are doing something about it. Using your analogy, do you think they should stop, just because it happens elsewhere more frequently?
(Nb I have not verified this chart).
Like I said, Mrs. May is a bit too eager in escalating all this (without a finished proper and independent investigation) and I have the feeling that she welcomes the occasion to get her people, the parliament, the press and her allies behind her to distract from the beatings that she has received in the last elections and the Brexit negotiations (which the UK press will certainly see differently - victory on all fronts!!).
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The sad reality is, while people are aware of the atrocities that are occurring in certain countries in the Middle East and Africa (that’s a whole other discussion), because it doesn’t directly concern them or their way of life, they just don’t care - and while it’s wrong, I don’t see it changing anytime soon.
I have tried to embed it in a bigger picture.
I for my part would be very happy, if people in the west would feel a bit more empathic against people that leave their countries to escape such horror and end up in their countries as refugees.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The plutonium poisoning of Livechenko didn't get much of a reaction, that's true. Teresa May was the Minister who handled the UK reaction to that attack and she was critizised for being too soft on Russia back then. Perhaps that's part of the reason why she's so though now?
Your point about Syria is a strong one. I can offer no better response than saying "that's how the world works"
An international investigation of the Salisbury incident would have been good, but the evidence seems much stronger than Iraq. I see why the UK don’t bother involving Russia in the investigation. After Livechenko affair they tried to work with the Russians, but the Russians only used the chance to stall and mislead.
Agents, double agents and defectors get killed all the time
By all nations!
It was always like that!
It just doesn't make sense and it gets boring to repeat it in every post
Maybe, I find it more likely that she's riding that horse to distract from everything else that went wrong in her leadership in the last months....
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Andnot after they have settle in the country they have defectedto and become a citizen to. I haven asked you to mention examples of this several times, but you never have. If you pretendI didn't ask this time, I'll just presume you don't know of any examples of this.
It's not unlikely May finds this incident helpful in destracting from Brexit and other trouble. But expelling so many "diplomats" and using such sharp language against a major power isn't something a government use just to distract from some tricky negotiations.
This is the first nerve gas attack in Europe and it's obviously done by a state. It's not just some against murder ingen each other usual.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And you still haven't replied to my questions.
Sometimes no answer is just as revealing as an actual answer.....
We are on a James Bond Forum based on novels by Ian Fleming and you deny that spies are getting killed?
And with that I‘ll leave you thinking that this event had such an extraordinary scale
https://www.google.de/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/sergei-skripal-and-the-long-history-of-assassination-attempts-abroad-93021
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
True...but Novichok is slightly worse than getting a ‘dicky tummy’ because the salmon was off 8-)
This was a calculated attack on British soil by a foreign power - many other countries agree, including Germany...and this also follows on from other Russian nationals dieing in ‘mysterious circumstances’ in London...at what point do you say “stop”...?...or do you just let Russia get on with murdering people in your country without redress?
Btw, I’m no fan of Teresa May but at least some action has been taken.
Don‘t quote me when there is no topical or intellectual connection to my post 8-)
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I didn't ask if spies get killed. I never denied that and that's not the usual aspect of this incident. I asked if you can mention western spies who defected to Russia and then get killed by western intelligence. If the list gets too long you can narrow it down to assassinations made in away that is an obvious "message", perhaps with a NATO-made WMD.