That doesn't bode too well for Nomi, I'm afraid... :v
I'm quite sure she will survive at the end of NTTD. They want to show her as the other "heroe" of the film to make a part of the audience identify with her. They will never kill her...which is a shame because I think she would be much more interesting with a doom by sacrificing herself to save Bond, Madeleine and the child. But it will never happen, believe me...
Nope, I don't. Just you wait, she'll either buys it or resigns. The reason for this: the need to reboot with the new JB actor. It's not like she's an established character, she's just a one movie plot vehicle. Although, I would love to see her survive to the next one and being tasked with breaking in the new 007!
Absolutely no need to reference Nomi in the next Bond movie...it will be a reboot of the franchise of sorts...probably not going back to a ‘rookie’ Bond though…
That doesn't bode too well for Nomi, I'm afraid... :v
I'm quite sure she will survive at the end of NTTD. They want to show her as the other "heroe" of the film to make a part of the audience identify with her. They will never kill her...which is a shame because I think she would be much more interesting with a doom by sacrificing herself to save Bond, Madeleine and the child. But it will never happen, believe me...
Nope, I don't. Just you wait, she'll either buys it or resigns. The reason for this: the need to reboot with the new JB actor. It's not like she's an established character, she's just a one movie plot vehicle. Although, I would love to see her survive to the next one and being tasked with breaking in the new 007!
She won't. We see from leaks and photos of the set that she doesn't bite the dust. Some of this information is from the leaked callshets so idk if ican post but there is enough evidence to deduce that she bsolutely does not die.
There was also an interview a while ago that confirmed no non-evil female character dies in NTTD.
Nomi will likely be confined to NTTD, or serve as nothing more than a Zukovsky level cameo if she does appear in future movies. She serves as a red herring - like the plot twist of MGS2 where Raiden appears to take over Snake's role. In fact, just like him, much vitriol and hate has been spewed already at Nomi because of this perceived threat to the existing and much loved hero ) ) )
People just want something to hate at this point. And while I don't deny her character has a very high chance of falling into the 'Statement(TM) character that is really just an obnoxious prick to male characters' pit, she will absolutely not take over as Bond.
Really, the only real 'out-of-line' thing or really damaging thing that her character could do is exactly if she DID become a Statement(TM) character. So far, we've really only seen her out of context in the trailer and especially the scene with MP and the Jamaica scene of her with Bond she acts really inflammatory and smug, as if intentionally being a dick for the hell of it. During the lab scene with her and Bond where she is all business, she was acting much more in line with what she is supposed to be - a professional, and a marked change from the other scenes. Really would like to see more of Nomi like this in her element.
I hope it's just the way that the trailer was cut - honestly, if they could write Nomi properly and make her a solid character I would be overjoyed. So far Hollywood has had a bad track record with its overcompensation for female characters, resulting in just terrible Mary Sue abominations that have the personality of a dickhead teenager with no sense of 'reading the room'. I hope they do Nomi justice. If anyone can set a trend, Bond as a series definitely can.
She won't. We see from leaks and photos of the set that she doesn't bite the dust. Some of this information is from the leaked callshets so idk if ican post but there is enough evidence to deduce that she bsolutely does not die.
There was also an interview a while ago that confirmed no non-evil female character dies in NTTD.
Nomi will likely be confined to NTTD, or serve as nothing more than a Zukovsky level cameo if she does appear in future movies. She serves as a red herring - like the plot twist of MGS2 where Raiden appears to take over Snake's role. In fact, just like him, much vitriol and hate has been spewed already at Nomi because of this perceived threat to the existing and much loved hero ) ) )
People just want something to hate at this point. And while I don't deny her character has a very high chance of falling into the 'Statement(TM) character that is really just an obnoxious prick to male characters' pit, she will absolutely not take over as Bond.
Really, the only real 'out-of-line' thing or really damaging thing that her character could do is exactly if she DID become a Statement(TM) character. So far, we've really only seen her out of context in the trailer and especially the scene with MP and the Jamaica scene of her with Bond she acts really inflammatory and smug, as if intentionally being a dick for the hell of it. During the lab scene with her and Bond where she is all business, she was acting much more in line with what she is supposed to be - a professional, and a marked change from the other scenes. Really would like to see more of Nomi like this in her element.
I hope it's just the way that the trailer was cut - honestly, if they could write Nomi properly and make her a solid character I would be overjoyed. So far Hollywood has had a bad track record with its overcompensation for female characters, resulting in just terrible Mary Sue abominations that have the personality of a dickhead teenager with no sense of 'reading the room'. I hope they do Nomi justice. If anyone can set a trend, Bond as a series definitely can.
Your comparison with Zukovsky is interesting but if you think about it, he dies in TWINE and I don't think they will dare such a thing if they make Nomi return in the next movies.
The fear of having another Mary Sue like Rey in the last Star Wars trilogy is understandable. I have no problem with creating a strong independant woman to make some kind of antagonism with Bond. I even think it's a good idea. Nomi is the new 007 after Bond's retirement and she seems badass. That's great.
Having said that, I hope they are not going to make her succeed in everything she intends to do. Her loyalty to MI6 and her ability to fight can't be denied, but we all agree she remains a young agent who has many things to learn from a guy like Bond who knows from his own experience how tough this job is indeed.
Failure is one of the necessary elements to make the audience feel empathy for such a character. That's why I hope she will be wrong at least once in the movie and then realize how helpful Bond turns out to be for this mission, despite all the things she doesn't like about him.
It makes no sense thematically to kill off the new gen. of 007, thus the new gen. of fan. Over the film Bond will begin to realize how outdated his way of thinking is, how the new ways truly are progressive and good for the world and will sacrifice himself for this new normal which has exiled him. This will complete the questions surmised by the Skyfall trilogy: Is Bond relevant? < No, no he isn't. As a free thinking individual he refuses to yield to the new normal. Is Mi6 relevant? - Yes, faceless corporations are always relevant because they alone dictate relevancy and public opinion as it should be.
This is a completely different franchise then when Zukovsky was in play. This is the scooby doo gang, not some smoking gun to get bond out of a victorian choke chair. They have their own B plots (or :v C plots) for god's sake. Not that Nomi and millenial Q and moneypenny are going to be in the public consciousness in the 5-6 years it will take to make Bond 26/Nomi 1, but ideally. They had to spoil the big 007 reveal just to try and keep the buzz going for the next 7 months. This film will be testing the waters.
I still thoroughly not expect this movie to be released in April of 2021. As the people in charge hold on to a cinema release (which seems more & more BS the further we‘re going down the route of this second wave), they might aswell just hold back with these elementary reveals until a more reliable release date.
It makes no sense thematically to kill off the new gen. of 007, thus the new gen. of fan. Over the film Bond will begin to realize how outdated his way of thinking is, how the new ways truly are progressive and good for the world and will sacrifice himself for this new normal which has exiled him. This will complete the questions surmised by the Skyfall trilogy: Is Bond relevant? < No, no he isn't. As a free thinking individual he refuses to yield to the new normal. Is Mi6 relevant? - Yes, faceless corporations are always relevant because they alone dictate relevancy and public opinion as it should be.
This is a completely different franchise then when Zukovsky was in play. This is the scooby doo gang, not some smoking gun to get bond out of a victorian choke chair. They have their own B plots (or :v C plots) for god's sake. Not that Nomi and millenial Q and moneypenny are going to be in the public consciousness in the 5-6 years it will take to make Bond 26/Nomi 1, but ideally. They had to spoil the big 007 reveal just to try and keep the buzz going for the next 7 months. This film will be testing the waters.
But what do you think about the concept of failure I was talking about in my previous post ? Do you believe Nomi should have some weaknesses or not ?
I wouldn't appreciate her very much if she turned out to be the perfect agent, always succeeding in what she does, never having doubts about herself or never being afraid of death for instance. Don't you agree ?
It makes no sense thematically to kill off the new gen. of 007, thus the new gen. of fan. Over the film Bond will begin to realize how outdated his way of thinking is, how the new ways truly are progressive and good for the world and will sacrifice himself for this new normal which has exiled him. This will complete the questions surmised by the Skyfall trilogy: Is Bond relevant? < No, no he isn't. As a free thinking individual he refuses to yield to the new normal. Is Mi6 relevant? - Yes, faceless corporations are always relevant because they alone dictate relevancy and public opinion as it should be.
This is a completely different franchise then when Zukovsky was in play. This is the scooby doo gang, not some smoking gun to get bond out of a victorian choke chair. They have their own B plots (or :v C plots) for god's sake. Not that Nomi and millenial Q and moneypenny are going to be in the public consciousness in the 5-6 years it will take to make Bond 26/Nomi 1, but ideally. They had to spoil the big 007 reveal just to try and keep the buzz going for the next 7 months. This film will be testing the waters.
But what do you think about the concept of failure I was talking about in my previous post ? Do you believe Nomi should have some weaknesses or not ?
I wouldn't appreciate her very much if she turned out to be the perfect agent, always succeeding in what she does, never having doubts about herself or never being afraid of death for instance. Don't you agree ?
I'm sure in one of those round table interviews she said Nomi is a bit too by-the-book, I got the vibe that she is shown to not be the complete agent just yet. I'm sure she will show up at the beginning and be all cocky and probably run a couple of rings around Bond to start with, but I would imagine it's the standard buddy cop sort of thing going on where they come to realise each others' faults and strengths etc. and he'll end up saving her too before they team up.
It would make sense if they echo Casino Royale just a little bit with a new 007 finding their feet, and it would be a nice bookend to Craig's films to do that. I think maybe the idea is that she isn't the same as Bond though: instead of being too reckless like he was it may be that she isn't quite reckless enough.
It makes no sense thematically to kill off the new gen. of 007, thus the new gen. of fan. Over the film Bond will begin to realize how outdated his way of thinking is, how the new ways truly are progressive and good for the world and will sacrifice himself for this new normal which has exiled him. This will complete the questions surmised by the Skyfall trilogy: Is Bond relevant? < No, no he isn't. As a free thinking individual he refuses to yield to the new normal. Is Mi6 relevant? - Yes, faceless corporations are always relevant because they alone dictate relevancy and public opinion as it should be.
This is a completely different franchise then when Zukovsky was in play. This is the scooby doo gang, not some smoking gun to get bond out of a victorian choke chair. They have their own B plots (or :v C plots) for god's sake. Not that Nomi and millenial Q and moneypenny are going to be in the public consciousness in the 5-6 years it will take to make Bond 26/Nomi 1, but ideally. They had to spoil the big 007 reveal just to try and keep the buzz going for the next 7 months. This film will be testing the waters.
But what do you think about the concept of failure I was talking about in my previous post ? Do you believe Nomi should have some weaknesses or not ?
I wouldn't appreciate her very much if she turned out to be the perfect agent, always succeeding in what she does, never having doubts about herself or never being afraid of death for instance. Don't you agree ?
She won't. We see from leaks and photos of the set that she doesn't bite the dust. Some of this information is from the leaked callshets so idk if ican post but there is enough evidence to deduce that she bsolutely does not die.
There was also an interview a while ago that confirmed no non-evil female character dies in NTTD.
Nomi will likely be confined to NTTD, or serve as nothing more than a Zukovsky level cameo if she does appear in future movies. She serves as a red herring - like the plot twist of MGS2 where Raiden appears to take over Snake's role. In fact, just like him, much vitriol and hate has been spewed already at Nomi because of this perceived threat to the existing and much loved hero ) ) )
People just want something to hate at this point. And while I don't deny her character has a very high chance of falling into the 'Statement(TM) character that is really just an obnoxious prick to male characters' pit, she will absolutely not take over as Bond.
Really, the only real 'out-of-line' thing or really damaging thing that her character could do is exactly if she DID become a Statement(TM) character. So far, we've really only seen her out of context in the trailer and especially the scene with MP and the Jamaica scene of her with Bond she acts really inflammatory and smug, as if intentionally being a dick for the hell of it. During the lab scene with her and Bond where she is all business, she was acting much more in line with what she is supposed to be - a professional, and a marked change from the other scenes. Really would like to see more of Nomi like this in her element.
I hope it's just the way that the trailer was cut - honestly, if they could write Nomi properly and make her a solid character I would be overjoyed. So far Hollywood has had a bad track record with its overcompensation for female characters, resulting in just terrible Mary Sue abominations that have the personality of a dickhead teenager with no sense of 'reading the room'. I hope they do Nomi justice. If anyone can set a trend, Bond as a series definitely can.
Your comparison with Zukovsky is interesting but if you think about it, he dies in TWINE and I don't think they will dare such a thing if they make Nomi return in the next movies.
The fear of having another Mary Sue like Rey in the last Star Wars trilogy is understandable. I have no problem with creating a strong independant woman to make some kind of antagonism with Bond. I even think it's a good idea. Nomi is the new 007 after Bond's retirement and she seems badass. That's great.
Having said that, I hope they are not going to make her succeed in everything she intends to do. Her loyalty to MI6 and her ability to fight can't be denied, but we all agree she remains a young agent who has many things to learn from a guy like Bond who knows from his own experience how tough this job is indeed.
Failure is one of the necessary elements to make the audience feel empathy for such a character. That's why I hope she will be wrong at least once in the movie and then realize how helpful Bond turns out to be for this mission, despite all the things she doesn't like about him.
Do you understand what I mean ?
Yes, perfectly.
I think they already hit the mark in the 90s with Wai Lin, and even Jinx, for that 'strong female agent who can more than hold her own' - and they did it considerably better, too. Those women do make mistakes and pay for them, and even with Jinx, who I'd consider closest to what Nomi's personality would probably be like, she earns and demonstrates her toughness through action and why she is such a highly ranked agent on par with Bond, even though she does get captured at one point - esp during the laser scene she even manages to help Bond. They didn't even need tragic backstories or anything that modern media sees as a 'must' for a good character - they managed to hold themselves up, without being a bratty Mary Sue and being toxic to existing characters and forcing them to change for them.
In fact, by being friendly with Bond they manage to build up a good rapport with both him and the audience, which is something modern media sees as 'the woman submitting to the man', which I think is bullshit. Even with a new male character - if they are friendly to Bond, we are more likely to take a liking to them, and if they are not, say, C - who is a complete dick to him, we don't like him from the start! So how would a gender swap prove any different?!
I think that's another reason why these new 'strong and independent' characters tend to fail when it comes to audience favor - being rude isn't strong or cool. Unless their rudeness has a real critical function to the plot, it's being a toxic person who no one in their right mind would like!
She won't. We see from leaks and photos of the set that she doesn't bite the dust. Some of this information is from the leaked callshets so idk if ican post but there is enough evidence to deduce that she bsolutely does not die.
There was also an interview a while ago that confirmed no non-evil female character dies in NTTD.
Nomi will likely be confined to NTTD, or serve as nothing more than a Zukovsky level cameo if she does appear in future movies. She serves as a red herring - like the plot twist of MGS2 where Raiden appears to take over Snake's role. In fact, just like him, much vitriol and hate has been spewed already at Nomi because of this perceived threat to the existing and much loved hero ) ) )
People just want something to hate at this point. And while I don't deny her character has a very high chance of falling into the 'Statement(TM) character that is really just an obnoxious prick to male characters' pit, she will absolutely not take over as Bond.
Really, the only real 'out-of-line' thing or really damaging thing that her character could do is exactly if she DID become a Statement(TM) character. So far, we've really only seen her out of context in the trailer and especially the scene with MP and the Jamaica scene of her with Bond she acts really inflammatory and smug, as if intentionally being a dick for the hell of it. During the lab scene with her and Bond where she is all business, she was acting much more in line with what she is supposed to be - a professional, and a marked change from the other scenes. Really would like to see more of Nomi like this in her element.
I hope it's just the way that the trailer was cut - honestly, if they could write Nomi properly and make her a solid character I would be overjoyed. So far Hollywood has had a bad track record with its overcompensation for female characters, resulting in just terrible Mary Sue abominations that have the personality of a dickhead teenager with no sense of 'reading the room'. I hope they do Nomi justice. If anyone can set a trend, Bond as a series definitely can.
Your comparison with Zukovsky is interesting but if you think about it, he dies in TWINE and I don't think they will dare such a thing if they make Nomi return in the next movies.
The fear of having another Mary Sue like Rey in the last Star Wars trilogy is understandable. I have no problem with creating a strong independant woman to make some kind of antagonism with Bond. I even think it's a good idea. Nomi is the new 007 after Bond's retirement and she seems badass. That's great.
Having said that, I hope they are not going to make her succeed in everything she intends to do. Her loyalty to MI6 and her ability to fight can't be denied, but we all agree she remains a young agent who has many things to learn from a guy like Bond who knows from his own experience how tough this job is indeed.
Failure is one of the necessary elements to make the audience feel empathy for such a character. That's why I hope she will be wrong at least once in the movie and then realize how helpful Bond turns out to be for this mission, despite all the things she doesn't like about him.
Do you understand what I mean ?
Yes, perfectly.
I think they already hit the mark in the 90s with Wai Lin, and even Jinx, for that 'strong female agent who can more than hold her own' - and they did it considerably better, too.
Do you mean Jinx is better than Wai Lin? I’ve not seen many people say that before!
In fact, by being friendly with Bond they manage to build up a good rapport with both him and the audience, which is something modern media sees as 'the woman submitting to the man', which I think is bullshit. Even with a new male character - if they are friendly to Bond, we are more likely to take a liking to them, and if they are not, say, C - who is a complete dick to him, we don't like him from the start! So how would a gender swap prove any different?!
That’s the case with M and Q as well though generally, they’re hardly lovely to him. And as I said above, pretty much every buddy cop film starts with the two being rude to each other: random one that pops into my head (because it involves an established character) is Sam Jackson in Die Hard With a Vengence. Wai Lin leaves Bond to get captured in Hamburg and gives him a little sarky wave, Pussy Galore is mean to Bond, Anya ridicules him, Stacey calls him out for being a creep etc. It’s pretty standard stuff.
Your comparison with Zukovsky is interesting but if you think about it, he dies in TWINE and I don't think they will dare such a thing if they make Nomi return in the next movies.
The fear of having another Mary Sue like Rey in the last Star Wars trilogy is understandable. I have no problem with creating a strong independant woman to make some kind of antagonism with Bond. I even think it's a good idea. Nomi is the new 007 after Bond's retirement and she seems badass. That's great.
Having said that, I hope they are not going to make her succeed in everything she intends to do. Her loyalty to MI6 and her ability to fight can't be denied, but we all agree she remains a young agent who has many things to learn from a guy like Bond who knows from his own experience how tough this job is indeed.
Failure is one of the necessary elements to make the audience feel empathy for such a character. That's why I hope she will be wrong at least once in the movie and then realize how helpful Bond turns out to be for this mission, despite all the things she doesn't like about him.
Do you understand what I mean ?
Yes, perfectly.
I think they already hit the mark in the 90s with Wai Lin, and even Jinx, for that 'strong female agent who can more than hold her own' - and they did it considerably better, too.
Do you mean Jinx is better than Wai Lin? I’ve not seen many people say that before!
In fact, by being friendly with Bond they manage to build up a good rapport with both him and the audience, which is something modern media sees as 'the woman submitting to the man', which I think is bullshit. Even with a new male character - if they are friendly to Bond, we are more likely to take a liking to them, and if they are not, say, C - who is a complete dick to him, we don't like him from the start! So how would a gender swap prove any different?!
That’s the case with M and Q as well though generally, they’re hardly lovely to him. And as I said above, pretty much every buddy cop film starts with the two being rude to each other: random one that pops into my head (because it involves an established character) is Sam Jackson in Die Hard With a Vengeance. Wai Lin leaves Bond to get captured in Hamburg and gives him a little sarky wave, Pussy Galore is mean to Bond, Anya ridicules him, Stacey calls him out for being a creep etc. It’s pretty standard stuff.
True, true. But those people have a little something called character development. Especially with say, Vesper, the hostility is kind of more just a way for the characters to 'size each other up' without coming to blows. It's often used as a smart vessel for character development, while a lot of Mary Sue characters use it as a way to be needlessly rude without the whole character development part.
If all we knew John Connor was the interaction at the start of T2, we'd come away thinking he was just a mouthy brat and thief. Instead, it is the development and hardships he goes through and matures past that makes him a memorable character, even if some people do think he sounds or acts annoying.
It's that that I can't stand about these 'statement' characters - they don't develop, mature, learn, do anything to further from their already unlikable base. They never change, or do anything significant in the film that inspires us to appreciate the writing behind them - we can clearly see them for what they are; essentially a piece of flimsy propaganda that serves only to make people loathe the message they are trying to promote with their lazy, uninspired creation.
That was also a problem I saw with C and why he was just so forgettable - he started out as a random nuisance, and ended as the same random nuisance. He never progressed on to become threatening, or become a real roadblock to Bond that would enable him more interactions with the MI6 crew to further flesh him out or explain his motives and why he is the way he is, he was basically the villain version of comic relief. They stuck a note on him saying 'bad guy you are supposed to hate' and that was it.
And it's not even that every character has to be likeable - they can further progress to be full on hated, but it is the progress that makes them a good character and not a setpiece - separate from their morality or in-canon actions. Zorin, Graves, Carver are all detestable, smug pricks for their entire respective films but we can appreciate them because we get to see the reason behind their nastiness, their corruption. We get to see the way the operate through the quieter moments of when they are working towards their goals, instead of just watching them badmouth Bond or launching nukes willy nilly and cracking flat jokes to try and force a laugh. Their arc is centered around their goal, not pushing a message onto the audience or trying to be funny/menacing/etc.
I think they already hit the mark in the 90s with Wai Lin, and even Jinx, for that 'strong female agent who can more than hold her own' - and they did it considerably better, too.
Do you mean Jinx is better than Wai Lin? I’ve not seen many people say that before!
In fact, by being friendly with Bond they manage to build up a good rapport with both him and the audience, which is something modern media sees as 'the woman submitting to the man', which I think is bullshit. Even with a new male character - if they are friendly to Bond, we are more likely to take a liking to them, and if they are not, say, C - who is a complete dick to him, we don't like him from the start! So how would a gender swap prove any different?!
That’s the case with M and Q as well though generally, they’re hardly lovely to him. And as I said above, pretty much every buddy cop film starts with the two being rude to each other: random one that pops into my head (because it involves an established character) is Sam Jackson in Die Hard With a Vengeance. Wai Lin leaves Bond to get captured in Hamburg and gives him a little sarky wave, Pussy Galore is mean to Bond, Anya ridicules him, Stacey calls him out for being a creep etc. It’s pretty standard stuff.
True, true. But those people have a little something called character development. Especially with say, Vesper, the hostility is kind of more just a way for the characters to 'size each other up' without coming to blows. It's often used as a smart vessel for character development, while a lot of Mary Sue characters use it as a way to be needlessly rude without the whole character development part.
Sure, but if we're criticising Nomi and comparing her with these negatively then I think it's worth pointing out that none of us have seen the film yet. There's zero reason to think she won't have any character development, and actually since you've given us lots of previous examples of characters in Bond films who do, every reason to think she will.
Obviously we don't want the characters in the new film to be rubbish, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it? But I can't see any real basis concern here other than 'Wow, imagine if Nomi is annoying, how bad would that be, eh?'. Well yeah, it would be bad, but it hasn't happened yet. Imagine if James Bond turned into a balloon and floated off at the end, that would be bad too.
And do M and Q undergo character development? I think it's debatable. Q is just grumpy and short to Bond for 40-odd years, Bond doesn't take it seriously, their relationship doesn't really change until Licence To Kill.
That was also a problem I saw with C and why he was just so forgettable - he started out as a random nuisance, and ended as the same random nuisance. He never progressed on to become threatening, or become a real roadblock to Bond that would enable him more interactions with the MI6 crew to further flesh him out or explain his motives and why he is the way he is, he was basically the villain version of comic relief. They stuck a note on him saying 'bad guy you are supposed to hate' and that was it.
I think a problem with C was that his plotline actually got diverted away from Bond himself, they actually only meet once in the film. It's an interesting idea to give M his own villain to defeat, but it didn't really work in terms of tying the film together. Also I honestly don't think they got the best actor for it. I was having another conversation randomly the other day about C and the idea of him being played by Hugh Grant popped up- and instantly the film improved in my mind!
Do you mean Jinx is better than Wai Lin? I’ve not seen many people say that before!
That’s the case with M and Q as well though generally, they’re hardly lovely to him. And as I said above, pretty much every buddy cop film starts with the two being rude to each other: random one that pops into my head (because it involves an established character) is Sam Jackson in Die Hard With a Vengeance. Wai Lin leaves Bond to get captured in Hamburg and gives him a little sarky wave, Pussy Galore is mean to Bond, Anya ridicules him, Stacey calls him out for being a creep etc. It’s pretty standard stuff.
True, true. But those people have a little something called character development. Especially with say, Vesper, the hostility is kind of more just a way for the characters to 'size each other up' without coming to blows. It's often used as a smart vessel for character development, while a lot of Mary Sue characters use it as a way to be needlessly rude without the whole character development part.
Sure, but if we're criticising Nomi and comparing her with these negatively then I think it's worth pointing out that none of us have seen the film yet.
Obviously we don't want the characters in the new film to be rubbish, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it? But I can't see any real basis concern here other than 'Wow, imagine if Nomi is annoying, how bad would that be, eh?'. Well yeah, it would be bad, but it hasn't happened yet. Imagine if James Bond turned into a balloon and floated off at the end, that would be bad too.
And do M and Q undergo character development? I think it's debatable. Q is just grumpy and short to Bond for 40-odd years, Bond doesn't take it seriously, their relationship doesn't really change until Licence To Kill.
That was also a problem I saw with C and why he was just so forgettable - he started out as a random nuisance, and ended as the same random nuisance. He never progressed on to become threatening, or become a real roadblock to Bond that would enable him more interactions with the MI6 crew to further flesh him out or explain his motives and why he is the way he is, he was basically the villain version of comic relief. They stuck a note on him saying 'bad guy you are supposed to hate' and that was it.
I think a problem with C was that his plotline actually got diverted away from Bond himself, they actually only meet once in the film. It's an interesting idea to give M his own villain to defeat, but it didn't really work in terms of tying the film together. Also I honestly don't think they got the best actor for it. I was having another conversation randomly the other day about C and the idea of him being played by Hugh Grant popped up- and instantly the film improved in my mind!
I sense a lot of the current reservations about Nomi are just speculation and reading trends. I really do hope she turns out to be a good character in terms of writing, prick or not. I think people are just way too wary from what we've seen of new female characters so far - the bad is always something that sticks out and plagues people's perceptions.
I think the MI6 regulars, especially Q, maybe didn't need to change that much due to what I said before about history and having enough interactions with everyone to build up their character.
Ah, I don't know, maybe it's just me being tired of this trope of characters being hostile hostile hostile. It's happened with Vesper, Q, Moneypenny to an extent, new M and even Swann. From the trailers, it also looks like a cold welcome from Nomi. The only one I really have hope for, really, is Paloma. I guess I just want to see a bit of friendly handshaking and polite introduction from time to time - the 'hostile sizing each other up' trope is becoming tired and overused. Or hell, maybe even a true melee as with the old Bonds. Just anything to break out of the monotony.
True, true. But those people have a little something called character development. Especially with say, Vesper, the hostility is kind of more just a way for the characters to 'size each other up' without coming to blows. It's often used as a smart vessel for character development, while a lot of Mary Sue characters use it as a way to be needlessly rude without the whole character development part.
Sure, but if we're criticising Nomi and comparing her with these negatively then I think it's worth pointing out that none of us have seen the film yet.
Obviously we don't want the characters in the new film to be rubbish, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it? But I can't see any real basis concern here other than 'Wow, imagine if Nomi is annoying, how bad would that be, eh?'. Well yeah, it would be bad, but it hasn't happened yet. Imagine if James Bond turned into a balloon and floated off at the end, that would be bad too.
And do M and Q undergo character development? I think it's debatable. Q is just grumpy and short to Bond for 40-odd years, Bond doesn't take it seriously, their relationship doesn't really change until Licence To Kill.
That was also a problem I saw with C and why he was just so forgettable - he started out as a random nuisance, and ended as the same random nuisance. He never progressed on to become threatening, or become a real roadblock to Bond that would enable him more interactions with the MI6 crew to further flesh him out or explain his motives and why he is the way he is, he was basically the villain version of comic relief. They stuck a note on him saying 'bad guy you are supposed to hate' and that was it.
I think a problem with C was that his plotline actually got diverted away from Bond himself, they actually only meet once in the film. It's an interesting idea to give M his own villain to defeat, but it didn't really work in terms of tying the film together. Also I honestly don't think they got the best actor for it. I was having another conversation randomly the other day about C and the idea of him being played by Hugh Grant popped up- and instantly the film improved in my mind!
I sense a lot of the current reservations about Nomi are just speculation and reading trends. I really do hope she turns out to be a good character in terms of writing, prick or not. I think people are just way too wary from what we've seen of new female characters so far - the bad is always something that sticks out and plagues people's perceptions.
I think the MI6 regulars, especially Q, maybe didn't need to change that much due to what I said before about history and having enough interactions with everyone to build up their character.
I don't really see the logic there, is it maybe not just because he was around longer so you got more used to him?
Ah, I don't know, maybe it's just me being tired of this trope of characters being hostile hostile hostile. It's happened with Vesper, Q, Moneypenny to an extent, new M and even Swann. From the trailers, it also looks like a cold welcome from Nomi. The only one I really have hope for, really, is Paloma. I guess I just want to see a bit of friendly handshaking and polite introduction from time to time - the 'hostile sizing each other up' trope is becoming tired and overused. Or hell, maybe even a true melee as with the old Bonds. Just anything to break out of the monotony.
That is just drama though, there's more drama when people are engaged in conflict. If Anya had thought Bond was great when she first met him then there wouldn't really be any point in her being his opposite number in the KGB, MI6's opposition. There's no story if everyone is nice to him all the time. And as you say, it looks like Paloma probably isn't hostile so it's not everyone he meets who hates him.
C was a Bond villain, we can't really complain that he didn't get along with Bond well enough, surely.
Sure, but if we're criticising Nomi and comparing her with these negatively then I think it's worth pointing out that none of us have seen the film yet.
Obviously we don't want the characters in the new film to be rubbish, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it? But I can't see any real basis concern here other than 'Wow, imagine if Nomi is annoying, how bad would that be, eh?'. Well yeah, it would be bad, but it hasn't happened yet. Imagine if James Bond turned into a balloon and floated off at the end, that would be bad too.
And do M and Q undergo character development? I think it's debatable. Q is just grumpy and short to Bond for 40-odd years, Bond doesn't take it seriously, their relationship doesn't really change until Licence To Kill.
I think a problem with C was that his plotline actually got diverted away from Bond himself, they actually only meet once in the film. It's an interesting idea to give M his own villain to defeat, but it didn't really work in terms of tying the film together. Also I honestly don't think they got the best actor for it. I was having another conversation randomly the other day about C and the idea of him being played by Hugh Grant popped up- and instantly the film improved in my mind!
I sense a lot of the current reservations about Nomi are just speculation and reading trends. I really do hope she turns out to be a good character in terms of writing, prick or not. I think people are just way too wary from what we've seen of new female characters so far - the bad is always something that sticks out and plagues people's perceptions.
I think the MI6 regulars, especially Q, maybe didn't need to change that much due to what I said before about history and having enough interactions with everyone to build up their character.
I don't really see the logic there, is it maybe not just because he was around longer so you got more used to him?
Ah, I don't know, maybe it's just me being tired of this trope of characters being hostile hostile hostile. It's happened with Vesper, Q, Moneypenny to an extent, new M and even Swann. From the trailers, it also looks like a cold welcome from Nomi. The only one I really have hope for, really, is Paloma. I guess I just want to see a bit of friendly handshaking and polite introduction from time to time - the 'hostile sizing each other up' trope is becoming tired and overused. Or hell, maybe even a true melee as with the old Bonds. Just anything to break out of the monotony.
That is just drama though, there's more drama when people are engaged in conflict. If Anya had thought Bond was great when she first met him then there wouldn't really be any point in her being his opposite number in the KGB, MI6's opposition. There's no story if everyone is nice to him all the time. And as you say, it looks like Paloma probably isn't hostile so it's not everyone he meets who hates him.
C was a Bond villain, we can't really complain that he didn't get along with Bond well enough, surely.
I was thinking more in general, such as the notorious Rey, or the multiple gender swapped versions of older franchises being a very clear and shallow money-grab. I don't think Bond will fall to that, but with the media surrounding Bond and even Lashana Lynch herself saying some comments about her character making a statement of Bond. It's all very annoying and patronizing to have your gender being portrayed as such again and again - it's a whole contradiction, you know? There's this whole thing about writing a female character to be genuine but strong, but at the same time reducing her to only the most basic qualities and making her perfect lest she has a flaw (gasp!) and needs to work to improve.
Yeah, partly so, I guess. We know Bond constantly breaks gadgets, but over the years Q has softened to him and really cares about him like a son - so much so on the occasions he goes out onto the field we can really feel that part of their bond come out in their interactions. I think this was the biggest thing that was missing from new Q and Bond in their first meeting, so trying to hop into that dynamic immediately didn't really flow. This was their first meeting, period - not like old Q who at the very least references Bond's history with his gadgets.
Drama can get tiresome, though. Not everything has to be a petty pissing contest. There can be good storytelling in friendship and camaraderie. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the whole buddy cop/army friends trope, but to me it gets taxing watching these catty, petty little spats. Hell, follow Dench M's example and just lay it out for once! I'm personally sick of these Cold War reminiscent dramatics. Don't tiptoe around each other with snappy comments, it just makes for this unnecessary and frankly, annoying tension.
I would say most buddy cop movies start out with the pair hating each other though, don't they?
I do think a character like Rebecca Ferguson's in Mission Impossible is a good example of a new female character in a franchise: she's not shown as perfect and she's also not just been given a man's role, she's strong in a feminine way.
I would say most buddy cop movies start out with the pair hating each other though, don't they?
I do think a character like Rebecca Ferguson's in Mission Impossible is a good example of a new female character in a franchise: she's not shown as perfect and she's also not just been given a man's role, she's strong in a feminine way.
Agree and agree - point was more there is a time and place for everything and people have just relied on drama far too much. Definitely agree on the buddy cop dynamic about heating each other initially. Never meant for my statement to come off as 'no hating or drama' at all.
There is a new advert out (I think for phones) starring Nomi as the agent. It should be bond starring in things like this, not Nomi, or anyone else!
Her race and gender is irrelevant. Nobody, no matter who they are, should be taking the place of bond during the promotion of a BOND film.
That's not how it works: you can bet that they would have loved to get Craig but Heineken seem to have had exclusive use of him for the last couple of films (he does Omega too but I think that's more of a direct deal not via the film promotion) which is either a contractual thing or that you have to pay a lot of money to get him to play 007 in an ad, and no-one's doing that. My guess would be that either his agent or Heineken have negotiated that he does only one promo sales job for the movie.
Almost exactly the same thing happened with the last movie (with a very similar River Thames spy action-based ad in fact) only that time it was Naomie Harris as Moneypenny advertising the phone. Craig did the Heineken ad. The world kept turning.
I get the feeling you think he's been sidelined or replaced, but it's just simply that he wouldn't have been available to this promotional partner for them to use. People seem to be willing to leap to the worst possible assumptions for some reason.
C was one of the consequences of the poor writing of Sp.
If you think about it, he was just some kind of tool to make the threat more credible with having a mole inside MI6. It's a very common way to proceed and it doesn't bother me, although we all agree the character should have been more developed and the guy they casted for the part was probably not the best choice. But I seriously think the issue is deeper.
Wouldn't it have been much more interesting to deal with the matter of mass surveillance like in a whodunit or a thriller ?
C was directly introduced as M's adversary and it was the best way to spoil the film ! From that moment, Blofeld's plot became easy to guess, so did C's betrayal. I have the feeling that the half-brother concept (Bond's secret) was only a clumsy attempt from the screenwriters to compensate such a weakness but it was too late, they were trapped by their own script.
If you take Goldfinger, there were very few clues about AG's motive/plot in the first part of the movie. The storyline was cleverly built to make the audience really appreciate the final twist. Everyting was subtle and stylishly written, whereas Sp was the opposite.
I don't know what to expect from NTTD but I do hope the storyline will be better.
Yes Sam Mendes was on a podcast recently and said that the third act to Spectre fell apart while they were making the film. He tried to fix it but I guess it doesn't always work.
It's not the best of articles, nor is it the worst, but it puts forward an interesting proposition and maybe even a missed chance to tie down B24 and B25: What if NTTD took of from where Spectre ended? Bond sans Madeline is in the Jamaica, because he is convalescent from the brain drilling?
....just a thought...
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
It's not the best of articles, nor is it the worst, but it puts forward an interesting proposition and maybe even a missed chance to tie down B24 and B25: What if NTTD took of from where Spectre ended? Bond sans Madeline is in the Jamaica, because he is convalescent from the brain drilling? Sorta like the beginning of the TMGG novel, when M throws Bond to the wolves, because he feels Bond is done with after everything he has gone through.
....just a thought...
Well, I don’t believe it for one reason: many people were very disappointed by Sp, mainly because of the third act. The screenwriters were aware of that and I suppose they wanted NTTD to take a brand new direction, otherwise it would be like in the last Star Wars trilogy with each episode trying to erase all the clumsy and irrelevant elements of the previous one. And everyone saw the final result...
The gap of five years in the timeline is supposed to be the consequence of the broken romance with Madeleine and her « betrayal », which has led Bond to Jamaica. And I find the concept clever.
Furthermore, if everything that happened in the third act of Sp was in Bond’s head indeed, having Blofeld jailed with his damaged face in NTTD and telling Bond: « You gave up everything for her » would be a strange coincidence...
I am not saying your idea is not interesting, but it would be very risky to make the torture scene from Sp the starting point of the new movie while many fans just wish to forget all the wrong things that have been done before.
It's not the best of articles, nor is it the worst, but it puts forward an interesting proposition and maybe even a missed chance to tie down B24 and B25: What if NTTD took of from where Spectre ended? Bond sans Madeline is in the Jamaica, because he is convalescent from the brain drilling? Sorta like the beginning of the TMGG novel, when M throws Bond to the wolves, because he feels Bond is done with after everything he has gone through.
....just a thought...
Well, I don’t believe it for one reason: many people were very disappointed by Sp, mainly because of the third act. The screenwriters were aware of that and I suppose they wanted NTTD to take a brand new direction, otherwise it would be like in the last Star Wars trilogy with each episode trying to erase all the clumsy and irrelevant elements of the previous one. And everyone saw the final result...
The gap of five years in the timeline is supposed to be the consequence of the broken romance with Madeleine and her « betrayal », which has led Bond to Jamaica. And I find the concept clever.
Furthermore, if everything that happened in the third act of Sp was in Bond’s head indeed, having Blofeld jailed with his damaged face in NTTD and telling Bond: « You gave up everything for her » would be a strange coincidence...
I am not saying your idea is not interesting, but it would be very risky to make the torture scene from Sp the starting point of the new movie while many fans just wish to forget all the wrong things that have been done before.
Yeah I know, I'm not saying it IS that way. 8-) Even that article doesn't say it is. I was only exploring interesting possibilities had it been that way...
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
In a new interview, french singer Dalida confirmed a song of hers will be used in NTTD. The very strange thing is that in her Twitter account it says it will be released in a limited edition vinyl on November 13th, 2021 https://twitter.com/Dalida_forever/status/1317016382861676544?s=20
Does it mean, and I wouldn't be surprise at all, the producers have already postponed the movie again?
At this point, with no certainty about whether you can release it or not in the fixed date, I begin to share the idea it would be better a VOD release with a big screening event in London or wherever when all this mess is out.
In a new interview, french singer Dalida confirmed a song of hers will be used in NTTD. The very strange thing is that in her Twitter account it says it will be released in a limited edition vinyl on November 13th, 2021 https://twitter.com/Dalida_forever/status/1317016382861676544?s=20
Does it mean, and I wouldn't be surprise at all, the producers have already postponed the movie again?
At this point, with no certainty about whether you can release it or not in the fixed date, I begin to share the idea it would be better a VOD release with a big screening event in London or wherever when all this mess is out.
Regardless of any potential future delay, there's not the money in VOD.
Comments
Absolutely no need to reference Nomi in the next Bond movie...it will be a reboot of the franchise of sorts...probably not going back to a ‘rookie’ Bond though…
She won't. We see from leaks and photos of the set that she doesn't bite the dust. Some of this information is from the leaked callshets so idk if ican post but there is enough evidence to deduce that she bsolutely does not die.
There was also an interview a while ago that confirmed no non-evil female character dies in NTTD.
Nomi will likely be confined to NTTD, or serve as nothing more than a Zukovsky level cameo if she does appear in future movies. She serves as a red herring - like the plot twist of MGS2 where Raiden appears to take over Snake's role. In fact, just like him, much vitriol and hate has been spewed already at Nomi because of this perceived threat to the existing and much loved hero
People just want something to hate at this point. And while I don't deny her character has a very high chance of falling into the 'Statement(TM) character that is really just an obnoxious prick to male characters' pit, she will absolutely not take over as Bond.
Really, the only real 'out-of-line' thing or really damaging thing that her character could do is exactly if she DID become a Statement(TM) character. So far, we've really only seen her out of context in the trailer and especially the scene with MP and the Jamaica scene of her with Bond she acts really inflammatory and smug, as if intentionally being a dick for the hell of it. During the lab scene with her and Bond where she is all business, she was acting much more in line with what she is supposed to be - a professional, and a marked change from the other scenes. Really would like to see more of Nomi like this in her element.
I hope it's just the way that the trailer was cut - honestly, if they could write Nomi properly and make her a solid character I would be overjoyed. So far Hollywood has had a bad track record with its overcompensation for female characters, resulting in just terrible Mary Sue abominations that have the personality of a dickhead teenager with no sense of 'reading the room'. I hope they do Nomi justice. If anyone can set a trend, Bond as a series definitely can.
Your comparison with Zukovsky is interesting but if you think about it, he dies in TWINE and I don't think they will dare such a thing if they make Nomi return in the next movies.
The fear of having another Mary Sue like Rey in the last Star Wars trilogy is understandable. I have no problem with creating a strong independant woman to make some kind of antagonism with Bond. I even think it's a good idea. Nomi is the new 007 after Bond's retirement and she seems badass. That's great.
Having said that, I hope they are not going to make her succeed in everything she intends to do. Her loyalty to MI6 and her ability to fight can't be denied, but we all agree she remains a young agent who has many things to learn from a guy like Bond who knows from his own experience how tough this job is indeed.
Failure is one of the necessary elements to make the audience feel empathy for such a character. That's why I hope she will be wrong at least once in the movie and then realize how helpful Bond turns out to be for this mission, despite all the things she doesn't like about him.
Do you understand what I mean ?
This is a completely different franchise then when Zukovsky was in play. This is the scooby doo gang, not some smoking gun to get bond out of a victorian choke chair. They have their own B plots (or :v C plots) for god's sake. Not that Nomi and millenial Q and moneypenny are going to be in the public consciousness in the 5-6 years it will take to make Bond 26/Nomi 1, but ideally. They had to spoil the big 007 reveal just to try and keep the buzz going for the next 7 months. This film will be testing the waters.
IG: @thebondarchives
Check it out, you won’t be disappointed
But what do you think about the concept of failure I was talking about in my previous post ? Do you believe Nomi should have some weaknesses or not ?
I wouldn't appreciate her very much if she turned out to be the perfect agent, always succeeding in what she does, never having doubts about herself or never being afraid of death for instance. Don't you agree ?
I'm sure in one of those round table interviews she said Nomi is a bit too by-the-book, I got the vibe that she is shown to not be the complete agent just yet. I'm sure she will show up at the beginning and be all cocky and probably run a couple of rings around Bond to start with, but I would imagine it's the standard buddy cop sort of thing going on where they come to realise each others' faults and strengths etc. and he'll end up saving her too before they team up.
It would make sense if they echo Casino Royale just a little bit with a new 007 finding their feet, and it would be a nice bookend to Craig's films to do that. I think maybe the idea is that she isn't the same as Bond though: instead of being too reckless like he was it may be that she isn't quite reckless enough.
Yeah, I hope
Yes, perfectly.
I think they already hit the mark in the 90s with Wai Lin, and even Jinx, for that 'strong female agent who can more than hold her own' - and they did it considerably better, too. Those women do make mistakes and pay for them, and even with Jinx, who I'd consider closest to what Nomi's personality would probably be like, she earns and demonstrates her toughness through action and why she is such a highly ranked agent on par with Bond, even though she does get captured at one point - esp during the laser scene she even manages to help Bond. They didn't even need tragic backstories or anything that modern media sees as a 'must' for a good character - they managed to hold themselves up, without being a bratty Mary Sue and being toxic to existing characters and forcing them to change for them.
In fact, by being friendly with Bond they manage to build up a good rapport with both him and the audience, which is something modern media sees as 'the woman submitting to the man', which I think is bullshit. Even with a new male character - if they are friendly to Bond, we are more likely to take a liking to them, and if they are not, say, C - who is a complete dick to him, we don't like him from the start! So how would a gender swap prove any different?!
I think that's another reason why these new 'strong and independent' characters tend to fail when it comes to audience favor - being rude isn't strong or cool. Unless their rudeness has a real critical function to the plot, it's being a toxic person who no one in their right mind would like!
Do you mean Jinx is better than Wai Lin? I’ve not seen many people say that before!
That’s the case with M and Q as well though generally, they’re hardly lovely to him. And as I said above, pretty much every buddy cop film starts with the two being rude to each other: random one that pops into my head (because it involves an established character) is Sam Jackson in Die Hard With a Vengence. Wai Lin leaves Bond to get captured in Hamburg and gives him a little sarky wave, Pussy Galore is mean to Bond, Anya ridicules him, Stacey calls him out for being a creep etc. It’s pretty standard stuff.
True, true. But those people have a little something called character development. Especially with say, Vesper, the hostility is kind of more just a way for the characters to 'size each other up' without coming to blows. It's often used as a smart vessel for character development, while a lot of Mary Sue characters use it as a way to be needlessly rude without the whole character development part.
If all we knew John Connor was the interaction at the start of T2, we'd come away thinking he was just a mouthy brat and thief. Instead, it is the development and hardships he goes through and matures past that makes him a memorable character, even if some people do think he sounds or acts annoying.
It's that that I can't stand about these 'statement' characters - they don't develop, mature, learn, do anything to further from their already unlikable base. They never change, or do anything significant in the film that inspires us to appreciate the writing behind them - we can clearly see them for what they are; essentially a piece of flimsy propaganda that serves only to make people loathe the message they are trying to promote with their lazy, uninspired creation.
That was also a problem I saw with C and why he was just so forgettable - he started out as a random nuisance, and ended as the same random nuisance. He never progressed on to become threatening, or become a real roadblock to Bond that would enable him more interactions with the MI6 crew to further flesh him out or explain his motives and why he is the way he is, he was basically the villain version of comic relief. They stuck a note on him saying 'bad guy you are supposed to hate' and that was it.
And it's not even that every character has to be likeable - they can further progress to be full on hated, but it is the progress that makes them a good character and not a setpiece - separate from their morality or in-canon actions. Zorin, Graves, Carver are all detestable, smug pricks for their entire respective films but we can appreciate them because we get to see the reason behind their nastiness, their corruption. We get to see the way the operate through the quieter moments of when they are working towards their goals, instead of just watching them badmouth Bond or launching nukes willy nilly and cracking flat jokes to try and force a laugh. Their arc is centered around their goal, not pushing a message onto the audience or trying to be funny/menacing/etc.
Sure, but if we're criticising Nomi and comparing her with these negatively then I think it's worth pointing out that none of us have seen the film yet. There's zero reason to think she won't have any character development, and actually since you've given us lots of previous examples of characters in Bond films who do, every reason to think she will.
Obviously we don't want the characters in the new film to be rubbish, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it? But I can't see any real basis concern here other than 'Wow, imagine if Nomi is annoying, how bad would that be, eh?'. Well yeah, it would be bad, but it hasn't happened yet. Imagine if James Bond turned into a balloon and floated off at the end, that would be bad too.
And do M and Q undergo character development? I think it's debatable. Q is just grumpy and short to Bond for 40-odd years, Bond doesn't take it seriously, their relationship doesn't really change until Licence To Kill.
I think a problem with C was that his plotline actually got diverted away from Bond himself, they actually only meet once in the film. It's an interesting idea to give M his own villain to defeat, but it didn't really work in terms of tying the film together. Also I honestly don't think they got the best actor for it. I was having another conversation randomly the other day about C and the idea of him being played by Hugh Grant popped up- and instantly the film improved in my mind!
I sense a lot of the current reservations about Nomi are just speculation and reading trends. I really do hope she turns out to be a good character in terms of writing, prick or not. I think people are just way too wary from what we've seen of new female characters so far - the bad is always something that sticks out and plagues people's perceptions.
I think the MI6 regulars, especially Q, maybe didn't need to change that much due to what I said before about history and having enough interactions with everyone to build up their character.
Ah, I don't know, maybe it's just me being tired of this trope of characters being hostile hostile hostile. It's happened with Vesper, Q, Moneypenny to an extent, new M and even Swann. From the trailers, it also looks like a cold welcome from Nomi. The only one I really have hope for, really, is Paloma. I guess I just want to see a bit of friendly handshaking and polite introduction from time to time - the 'hostile sizing each other up' trope is becoming tired and overused. Or hell, maybe even a true melee as with the old Bonds. Just anything to break out of the monotony.
Which female characters are you thinking of?
I don't really see the logic there, is it maybe not just because he was around longer so you got more used to him?
That is just drama though, there's more drama when people are engaged in conflict. If Anya had thought Bond was great when she first met him then there wouldn't really be any point in her being his opposite number in the KGB, MI6's opposition. There's no story if everyone is nice to him all the time. And as you say, it looks like Paloma probably isn't hostile so it's not everyone he meets who hates him.
C was a Bond villain, we can't really complain that he didn't get along with Bond well enough, surely.
I was thinking more in general, such as the notorious Rey, or the multiple gender swapped versions of older franchises being a very clear and shallow money-grab. I don't think Bond will fall to that, but with the media surrounding Bond and even Lashana Lynch herself saying some comments about her character making a statement of Bond. It's all very annoying and patronizing to have your gender being portrayed as such again and again - it's a whole contradiction, you know? There's this whole thing about writing a female character to be genuine but strong, but at the same time reducing her to only the most basic qualities and making her perfect lest she has a flaw (gasp!) and needs to work to improve.
Yeah, partly so, I guess. We know Bond constantly breaks gadgets, but over the years Q has softened to him and really cares about him like a son - so much so on the occasions he goes out onto the field we can really feel that part of their bond come out in their interactions. I think this was the biggest thing that was missing from new Q and Bond in their first meeting, so trying to hop into that dynamic immediately didn't really flow. This was their first meeting, period - not like old Q who at the very least references Bond's history with his gadgets.
Drama can get tiresome, though. Not everything has to be a petty pissing contest. There can be good storytelling in friendship and camaraderie. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the whole buddy cop/army friends trope, but to me it gets taxing watching these catty, petty little spats. Hell, follow Dench M's example and just lay it out for once! I'm personally sick of these Cold War reminiscent dramatics. Don't tiptoe around each other with snappy comments, it just makes for this unnecessary and frankly, annoying tension.
I do think a character like Rebecca Ferguson's in Mission Impossible is a good example of a new female character in a franchise: she's not shown as perfect and she's also not just been given a man's role, she's strong in a feminine way.
Agree and agree - point was more there is a time and place for everything and people have just relied on drama far too much. Definitely agree on the buddy cop dynamic about heating each other initially. Never meant for my statement to come off as 'no hating or drama' at all.
I'm not sure if you've ever worked in a British Government department but...
Her race and gender is irrelevant. Nobody, no matter who they are, should be taking the place of bond during the promotion of a BOND film.
1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby
That's not how it works: you can bet that they would have loved to get Craig but Heineken seem to have had exclusive use of him for the last couple of films (he does Omega too but I think that's more of a direct deal not via the film promotion) which is either a contractual thing or that you have to pay a lot of money to get him to play 007 in an ad, and no-one's doing that. My guess would be that either his agent or Heineken have negotiated that he does only one promo sales job for the movie.
Almost exactly the same thing happened with the last movie (with a very similar River Thames spy action-based ad in fact) only that time it was Naomie Harris as Moneypenny advertising the phone. Craig did the Heineken ad. The world kept turning.
I get the feeling you think he's been sidelined or replaced, but it's just simply that he wouldn't have been available to this promotional partner for them to use. People seem to be willing to leap to the worst possible assumptions for some reason.
Bear in mind DHL were only given the car to use!
Or any government department for that matter.
-Mr Arlington Beech
If you think about it, he was just some kind of tool to make the threat more credible with having a mole inside MI6. It's a very common way to proceed and it doesn't bother me, although we all agree the character should have been more developed and the guy they casted for the part was probably not the best choice. But I seriously think the issue is deeper.
Wouldn't it have been much more interesting to deal with the matter of mass surveillance like in a whodunit or a thriller ?
C was directly introduced as M's adversary and it was the best way to spoil the film ! From that moment, Blofeld's plot became easy to guess, so did C's betrayal. I have the feeling that the half-brother concept (Bond's secret) was only a clumsy attempt from the screenwriters to compensate such a weakness but it was too late, they were trapped by their own script.
If you take Goldfinger, there were very few clues about AG's motive/plot in the first part of the movie. The storyline was cleverly built to make the audience really appreciate the final twist. Everyting was subtle and stylishly written, whereas Sp was the opposite.
I don't know what to expect from NTTD but I do hope the storyline will be better.
The third act was a major concern throughout, a real shame.
Here's a quote from Entertainment Weekly: "Here’s question: Why is any of this happening?
Here’s an answer: It’s all in Bond’s head. Because he is dying on Blofeld’s operating table."
It's an article from 2015, you can find it here: https://ew.com/article/2015/11/10/spectre-ending/
It's not the best of articles, nor is it the worst, but it puts forward an interesting proposition and maybe even a missed chance to tie down B24 and B25: What if NTTD took of from where Spectre ended? Bond sans Madeline is in the Jamaica, because he is convalescent from the brain drilling?
....just a thought...
-Mr Arlington Beech
Well, I don’t believe it for one reason: many people were very disappointed by Sp, mainly because of the third act. The screenwriters were aware of that and I suppose they wanted NTTD to take a brand new direction, otherwise it would be like in the last Star Wars trilogy with each episode trying to erase all the clumsy and irrelevant elements of the previous one. And everyone saw the final result...
The gap of five years in the timeline is supposed to be the consequence of the broken romance with Madeleine and her « betrayal », which has led Bond to Jamaica. And I find the concept clever.
Furthermore, if everything that happened in the third act of Sp was in Bond’s head indeed, having Blofeld jailed with his damaged face in NTTD and telling Bond: « You gave up everything for her » would be a strange coincidence...
I am not saying your idea is not interesting, but it would be very risky to make the torture scene from Sp the starting point of the new movie while many fans just wish to forget all the wrong things that have been done before.
Yeah I know, I'm not saying it IS that way. 8-) Even that article doesn't say it is. I was only exploring interesting possibilities had it been that way...
-Mr Arlington Beech
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lashana-lynch-on-no-time-to-die-and-her-favourite-omega-watch-grbljdr8x
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Does it mean, and I wouldn't be surprise at all, the producers have already postponed the movie again?
At this point, with no certainty about whether you can release it or not in the fixed date, I begin to share the idea it would be better a VOD release with a big screening event in London or wherever when all this mess is out.
Regardless of any potential future delay, there's not the money in VOD.