Belstaff Patterson/Jacob dyeing inquiry.

Hey folks! Been searching for the Patterson in Black, but fortunately found an equally rare Belstaff Jacob Blouson, which is incredibly similar and same fit. However, I’m still jonesing on color black. Was curious if anybody had any input on dyeing and/or suggestions and referrals. I’d sure appreciate it! Current color is brown as seen below.
49-BD32-DE-2184-4-F47-9-E45-9-E1-D6-E313-AF2.jpg

96-BCB5-DD-BA24-4-FA4-92-F2-08-DA85-EBBB4-A.jpg

9899-DE10-A963-46-A4-929-F-396-D2-F8-E306-A.jpg

D5-E49794-0-B10-420-D-AEF6-8324100034-B1.jpg

E8-D5-DC60-4044-43-DA-BB18-E624-E77-C0-B11.jpg

Comments

  • MikeG77MikeG77 Posts: 1,777MI6 Agent
    Cdennis55 wrote:
    Hey folks! Been searching for the Patterson in Black, but fortunately found an equally rare Belstaff Jacob Blouson, which is incredibly similar and same fit. However, I’m still jonesing on color black. Was curious if anybody had any input on dyeing and/or suggestions and referrals. I’d sure appreciate it! Current color is brown as seen below.
    49-BD32-DE-2184-4-F47-9-E45-9-E1-D6-E313-AF2.jpg

    96-BCB5-DD-BA24-4-FA4-92-F2-08-DA85-EBBB4-A.jpg

    9899-DE10-A963-46-A4-929-F-396-D2-F8-E306-A.jpg

    D5-E49794-0-B10-420-D-AEF6-8324100034-B1.jpg

    E8-D5-DC60-4044-43-DA-BB18-E624-E77-C0-B11.jpg

    I don't know a ton about Belstaff jackets but personally I would suggest you not dye it! Assuming you can find a black Patterson you're gonna wanna move the Jacob to someone else and they be less inclined to buy if it's been altered. Have you reached out to Belstaff to see if they would do a special order of the Patterson for you?
    I know where you keep your gun!
  • Cdennis55Cdennis55 Posts: 77MI6 Agent
    Thanks for the response! Some gents on here tried fairly recently, but no updates. Matchless (same owners owners as Belstaff when Patterson was made) currently have a Craig Blouson, which is similar but not the same. I feel a dye job can get close since it’s a darker brown already. A black Patterson will come up eventually...and I’m offering $3,500, so hopefully they reach out to me...but if this Jacob gets a good dye job I’ll be content and end the search for the Patterson. They’re basically the same jacket.
    MikeG77 wrote:
    Cdennis55 wrote:
    Hey folks! Been searching for the Patterson in Black, but fortunately found an equally rare Belstaff Jacob Blouson, which is incredibly similar and same fit. However, I’m still jonesing on color black. Was curious if anybody had any input on dyeing and/or suggestions and referrals. I’d sure appreciate it! Current color is brown as seen below.
    49-BD32-DE-2184-4-F47-9-E45-9-E1-D6-E313-AF2.jpg

    96-BCB5-DD-BA24-4-FA4-92-F2-08-DA85-EBBB4-A.jpg

    9899-DE10-A963-46-A4-929-F-396-D2-F8-E306-A.jpg

    D5-E49794-0-B10-420-D-AEF6-8324100034-B1.jpg

    E8-D5-DC60-4044-43-DA-BB18-E624-E77-C0-B11.jpg

    I don't know a ton about Belstaff jackets but personally I would suggest you not dye it! Assuming you can find a black Patterson you're gonna wanna move the Jacob to someone else and they be less inclined to buy if it's been altered. Have you reached out to Belstaff to see if they would do a special order of the Patterson for you?
  • DB6DB6 EnglandPosts: 1,196MI6 Agent
    I have to agree with the others - I really wouldn't dye it.

    There are so many variables including finish of the leather etc that dyeing probably won't give you the outcome you desire.
    My name has changed! I’m no longer dufus......now I’m DB6
  • canoe2canoe2 Posts: 2,007MI6 Agent
    edited October 2018
    I have a lot of experience restoring leather shoes and boots, most of them from high end brands. Here's what I can share about dyeing leather:

    1. Most important: unless you're prepared to sacrifice the piece, don't do it. It's a messy job and extremely difficult to do it right. Even the real professionals will admit this.

    2. You cannot put one dye directly on top of another, even if it is a darker color. High grade leather like your jacket is batch dyed and stuffed full of conditioners when it's raw. After dyeing, it usually has other treatments applied to lock in the dye and/or achieve certain effects, such as antiqueing or fades. Then it's made into a garment. Then the jacket is worn by the original buyer, so you get wear spots (usually around the zippers, pockets and elbows). Plus, you don't know what creams and conditioners he applied to maintain the jacket. In other words, you're not applying the new dye directly on to leather. And you will end up with lighter and darker spots all over as the new dye is absorbed unevenly. This doesn't even take into account human error. And in places where the dye wasn't absorbed completely, the color will rub off (usually on things like couches, car seats, etc).

    3. The only way I've found to get at least fairly decent results is to first strip the leather using something like Renomat. This will remove some of the original dye and treatments and allow for a more even absorbtion of the new dye. BUT: stripping treatments are horrible to use (highly toxic) and brutally hard on leather. To get a consistent stripping you really need to work this stuff into every fold and crease. You may need to do this more than a few times to get all the spots you missed. And you need to wash the jacket after each application to get all the toxic crap off.

    4. Let's say you did all that and now have a light brown jacket that's as close to raw leather as you're going to get. The new dye has to be applied using a cloth and really worked into the leather. You'll need to mix up a big batch of the dye because the job will require several applications to get that dark, even color you want. Honestly, you really need to saturate the leather (see #5 below). Let the jacket dry between each application and when dry brush it and wipe it with a cloth to remove any dye that didn"t get absorbed. Oh, and expect some of the dye to soak through the leather and stain the liner.

    5. I usually use a conditioner like Bick 4 to seal in the dye when that process is done. As you're applying the conditioner, expect some of the dye to rub off, which may leave you with lighter spots depending on how the dyeing process went. You can try using a colored leather cream to do touch ups.

    I hope this helps with your decision!

    TL;DR: as others have said, don't do it. Enjoy the jacket as is and wait for a black one to come along.

    For anyone interested, here is a pair of shoes I restored for a contest.

    Original state:
    20180718_070735-jpg.1024695

    Botched dye job
    20180726_075659-jpg.1024708

    After stripping and redyeing correctly
    20180730_175809-jpg.1024709

    Final result
    20180824_123141-jpg.1024719
  • Cdennis55Cdennis55 Posts: 77MI6 Agent
    Everybody, thanks so much for the great advice! This is why I come here. Great folks. I’ll go ahead and sell this one, and wait for a Black Patterson or similar. After thought, I’d rather not risk ruining this beautiful jacket. It’s incredibly rare, and somebody somewhere is looking for it as much as I’m looking for the Patterson
    canoe2 wrote:
    I have a lot of experience restoring leather shoes and boots, most of them from high end brands. Here's what I can share about dyeing leather:

    1. Most important: unless you're prepared to sacrifice the piece, don't do it. It's a messy job and extremely difficult to do it right. Even the real professionals will admit this.

    2. You cannot put one dye directly on top of another, even if it is a darker color. High grade leather like your jacket is batch dyed and stuffed full of conditioners when it's raw. After dyeing, it usually has other treatments applied to lock in the dye and/or achieve certain effects, such as antiqueing or fades. Then it's made into a garment. Then the jacket is worn by the original buyer, so you get wear spots (usually around the zippers, pockets and elbows). Plus, you don't know what creams and conditioners he applied to maintain the jacket. In other words, you're not applying the new dye directly on to leather. And you will end up with lighter and darker spots all over as the new dye is absorbed unevenly. This doesn't even take into account human error. And in places where the dye wasn't absorbed completely, the color will rub off (usually on things like couches, car seats, etc).

    3. The only way I've found to get at least fairly decent results is to first strip the leather using something like Renomat. This will remove some of the original dye and treatments and allow for a more even absorbtion of the new dye. BUT: stripping treatments are horrible to use (highly toxic) and brutally hard on leather. To get a consistent stripping you really need to work this stuff into every fold and crease. You may need to do this more than a few times to get all the spots you missed. And you need to wash the jacket after each application to get all the toxic crap off.

    4. Let's say you did all that and now have a light brown jacket that's as close to raw leather as you're going to get. The new dye has to be applied using a cloth and really worked into the leather. You'll need to mix up a big batch of the dye because the job will require several applications to get that dark, even color you want. Honestly, you really need to saturate the leather (see #5 below). Let the jacket dry between each application and when dry brush it and wipe it with a cloth to remove any dye that didn"t get absorbed. Oh, and expect some of the dye to soak through the leather and stain the liner.

    5. I usually use a conditioner like Bick 4 to seal in the dye when that process is done. As you're applying the conditioner, expect some of the dye to rub off, which may leave you with lighter spots depending on how the dyeing process went. You can try using a colored leather cream to do touch ups.

    I hope this helps with your decision!

    TL;DR: as others have said, don't do it. Enjoy the jacket as is and wait for a black one to come along
  • Fred007Fred007 Posts: 472MI6 Agent
    That one is not a Jacob ???

    Here is the Jacob blouson....


    1.png



    2.png

    If I remember correctly, the Jacob blouson is even rarer than the Patterson and was only sold in Antique Cuero color (pictures) and black !!!
  • Cdennis55Cdennis55 Posts: 77MI6 Agent
    edited October 2018
    Mine is a Jacob. Mine is more like in the film. Same color as in the film as well. Mine has slight modifications , but you’re wrong in that they only came in those 2 colors. They also came in brown. Google Belstaff Jacob Blouson. Many will pop up.You’ll also see mine is much closer (and more rare) to the screen version.But wow....if you’re right in that they also
    came in black, I have a new unicorn. Ha. Any leads?
    Fred007 wrote:
    That one is not a Jacob ???

    Here is the Jacob blouson....

  • Fred007Fred007 Posts: 472MI6 Agent
    http://www.filmjackets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4000

    I can't find the link to the black one, sold on ebay from an Italian store.......long time ago 8-)
  • Cdennis55Cdennis55 Posts: 77MI6 Agent
    edited October 2018
    Thanks so much for the info! I’m the type of guy who always needs something to look forward to in life. So a search for either a Patterson or Jacob in black is perfect for me. Haha. I hope $3,500 eventually gets me one. Also, send anybody my way, who’s looking for this jacket! Better price on here than EBay.
    Fred007 wrote:
    http://www.filmjackets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4000

    I can't find the link to the black one, sold on ebay from an Italian store.......long time ago 8-)
  • Cdennis55Cdennis55 Posts: 77MI6 Agent
    Size L, but like the Patterson, slim fitting. I’ll PM you measurements soon
    Gymkata wrote:
    sounds like you might sell this jacket. May I please ask the size of it?
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