Bond’s guns like those of “Dirty Harry” are an endless source of mis-information, outright BS and more than a few plain old fibs. This PPK now in question is more fraud than anything else.
Even the esteemed “Greatest Gun” magazine gets it wrong by claiming Boothroyd loaned Fleming a PPK when the pistol in question wasn’t made until after Fleming passed. Guns often bring out endless experts and casual reasearchers and ego becomes more of an issue than facts.
Those who visit this forum are lucky to have access to some individuals who are actually knowledgeable about the firearms in question and their use in both the thrillers and films. I’ve done articles and videos about some of the handguns used in the Fleming novels and it took some diligent research. Too bad folks who put objects in museums and auctions can’t be bothered ...
For The Most Famous Gun In The World I regrettably did not have access to the original Boothroyd PPK which was at the time in the vault of The Imperial War Museum in London, however the American owner was kind enough to furnish me with photo reference and copies of documentation from when he purchased the pistol from Christies in September 1998 for the considerable sum of £5,750. The Christies listing stated Boothroyd had loaned the pistol to Fleming in the late 1950's (see auction house link). The shape of the PPK would denote its manufacture to be from 1953 onwards Manurhin branded and 1956 onwards Walther branded although both would be made under license in France so the time line would certainly tie in with the publication of and therefore inclusion of Fleming's novel Dr.No in March 1958 -{
As for "casual researcher", I spent 8 years researching and confirming the content aiming for a 2012 50th Anniversary release date but to include certain memories/anecdotes further research had to be carried out missing the 50th Anniversary deadline which lead to the inclusion of inventory from SPECTRE. There were also further weapons which needed to be tracked down for inclusion & trust me that is not an easy task to do because it is not just a case of knowing a particular piece was used by " actor X" on Bond but where said weapon was used after Bond? As an example the AKS74U Brosnan used on Goldeneye was later used by Daniel Craig on Tomb Raider before it was finally used in Prague on Brad Pitt's movie World War Z where it was confiscated by the governing authorities carrying out a spot check on set & very nearly destroyed along with the majority of the weapons hired to the production. A current weapon from Daniel Craig's tenure as 007 was recently cannibalised for usage on the 2018 Terminator sequel!!
The main selling point of Famous Gun was that no stock weapons images would be used therefore inclusion would only be of the actual screen seen practical or stunt weaponry. From 1962 through to 2015, there are only 6 main character weapons which were not included in TMFGITW. Of those 6 weapons only two weapons, both from Goldfinger could not be tracked down for inclusion which again I would hardly call "casual Research!" Not all owners of such inventory wanted to contribute to the project. Many weapons were located regrettably after TMFGITW was published which may justify a further volume to include B25 when said production hits the big screen -{
Having been involved with TMFGITW in a small way, I can only say that Donk is most certainly NOT a "casual researcher", his tenacity and desire to get the correct facts and information about the firearms that appear within TMFGITW knows no bounds. -{
I really wasn't referring to The Most Famous Gun In The World when I said "Guns often bring out endless experts and casual researchers". I have experienced folks as diverse as Police Officers, Soldiers, gun shop Employees and grocery clerks and writers saying the most annoying false hoods about firearms with great confidence and thunderous expertise.
However, with respect to Boothroyd's PPK, the "loaned to Fleming" statement provided by Christie's for the auction is not correct. Ian Fleming died in 1965, Boothroyd's pistol, Walther PPK #113158 was manufactured between the years 1968 and 1969. That information is readily available from a number of sources. While there is no doubt the Walther was Boothroyd's it simply did not exist during the time stated. One cannot precisely date a Walther PPK solely by it's "shape".
I don't know what provenance Christie's provided from Boothroyd's estate, but in my research (more than a few decades worth ) on literary Bond's handguns I never found reference to Boothroyd loaning or even owning a PPK in 1958. FWIW Boothroyd did loan Fleming a Smith & Wesson revolver, so that it could be painted by Richard Chopping for the cover of From Russia with Love. That loan caused some discomfort for both Fleming and Boothroyd when the Scottish Police decided to check the gun as a result of a homicide and Boothroyd couldn't produce it.
I think what happened with the Bernard Lee PPK is another example of "casual research". Christie's Auction House and the auction set up by Mr. Humbert clearly did not have the expertise to fully confirm what they were offering was "correct". This has also happened with the PPK pistol(s) attributed to "License to Kill" in that case pre-war pistols were offered for auction with "provenance", a little research would clearly show the pistol(s) in the film were all post war. Even the NRA Museum touted one of those "screen used" PPK pistols in a special display and video.
I think the main takeaway is "Caveat Emptor" , if your going to bid or buy something - do your research! With firearms there is a very old saying amoung collectors "buy the gun, not the story".
I really wasn't referring to The Most Famous Gun In The World when I said "Guns often bring out endless experts and casual researchers". I have experienced folks as diverse as Police Officers, Soldiers, gun shop Employees and grocery clerks and writers saying the most annoying false hoods about firearms with great confidence and thunderous expertise.
However, with respect to Boothroyd's PPK, the "loaned to Fleming" statement provided by Christie's for the auction is not correct. Ian Fleming died in 1964, Boothroyd's pistol, Walther PPK #113158 was manufactured between the years 1968 and 1969. That information is readily available from a number of sources. While there is no doubt the Walther was Boothroyd's it simply did not exist during the time stated. One cannot precisely date a Walther PPK solely by it's "shape".
I don't know what provenance Christie's provided from Boothroyd's estate, but in my research (more than a few decades worth ) on literary Bond's handguns I never found reference to Boothroyd loaning or even owning a PPK in 1958. FWIW Boothroyd did loan Fleming a Smith & Wesson revolver, so that it could be painted by Richard Chopping for the cover of From Russia with Love. That loan caused some discomfort for both Fleming and Boothroyd when the Scottish Police decided to check the gun as a result of a homicide and Boothroyd couldn't produce it.
I think what happened with the Bernard Lee PPK is another example of "casual research". Christie's Auction House and the auction set up by Mr. Humbert clearly did not have the expertise to fully confirm what they were offering was "correct". This has also happened with the PPK pistol(s) attributed to "License to Kill" in that case pre-war pistols were offered for auction with "provenance", a little research would clearly show the pistol(s) in the film were all post war. Even the NRA Museum touted one of those "screen used" PPK pistols in a special display and video.
I think the main takeaway is "Caveat Emptor" , if your going to bid or buy something - do your research! With firearms there is a very old saying amoung collectors "buy the gun, not the story".
Thank you for your detailed reply. Yes the "casual research" did burn a little. As for the Zella PPK pistol sold on by Stembridge Gun Rentals. The armourers did indeed provide Zella PPK pistols to the production of License Revoked however only one of those pistols appeared on screen in the LTK titles sequence. The pistols Dalton used on screen were the same 1972/73 pistols he had previously utilised in TheLiving Daylights which were shipped out from the UK armourers. I am not a Fleming expert & have never claimed to be. The tribute to Boothroyd at the end of TMFGITW was I must confess an afterthought because of what I had seen of Boothroyd in documentaries he appeared to be an eccentric British nutter who liked firing guns in the house! Of that belief I was clearly incorrect. The two pistols sold by Christies in 1998 were both accredited to Boothroyd with the modified Smith & Wesson .38 only achieving I believe £2500 compared to the £5,750 of the PPK with the nice back story. When it became clear some 14 years after the auction that because of ATF issues exporting the live weapons to the US that the pistols were still stored in the UK, both pistols were offered to myself at a price however my only interest was for the Smith & Wesson as 007 The Armoury really did not need another PPK at any price! Both pistols now reside at The Royal Armouries in Leeds in Gt Britain -{
I'm stunned that Boothroyd's .38 S&W went for half of what the PPK sold for. The S&W, was featured on a dust jacket and I would think that alone would have brought in more than twice as much as a run of the mill PPK. FRWL is perhaps the best of all Fleming's thrillers.
I find it humorous that you thought of Boothroyd as a "eccentric British nutter" since he does appear on screen as a bit odd. Firearms expertise was not mainstream in the late '50's and early '60's. Apparently no one bothered to write the likes of Agatha Christie or Raymond Chandler to complain about putting safeties on revolvers and other goofs.
I think a case could be made that Boothroyd really started the world wide fan obsession with guns (and other props) by his 1956 letter to Fleming. It is to Fleming's credit that he cared enough about what he was writing to answer Boothroyd and even make changes in his novels. But then Fleming was actually the master of "product placement" so maybe it's not much of a stretch for him to have replied to Boothroyd.
Beginning with Dr. No, film fans all over the world who loved the romance and drama of Bond's adventures were taken with the idea that by owning a Super XXX (insert your fav prop here) one could become a little bit like 007. It's hard not to want a gun so powerful it hits "like a brick though ..." or one that could "blow your head clean off." These things have become even more important as society has become more and more obsessed with gadgets rather than ideas.
I am curious about the early PPK used in the LTK credits. Was the title sequence filmed in the U.S. and why? I would have thought that was all done in the UK ... thus the regular Dalton PPK would have been easily available. But I am not any kind of expert on the firearms used in the films.
BTW I have been thinking of consigning these two pistols for auction. They were said to have come from an actor named "Loffel" something, who met Timothy Dalton in a Southern California supermarket. Dalton apparently kept the pistols after filming LTK. Tim sold them to the actor and recorded the sale on a 2006 Safeway receipt.
I'm thinking of a price in the six figures! (send inquiries via PM)
P.S. Images added because no post is worthwhile unless it has a picture or two
BTW I have been thinking of consigning these two pistols for auction. They were said to have come from an actor named "Loffel" something, who met Timothy Dalton in a Southern California supermarket. Dalton apparently kept the pistols after filming LTK. Tim sold them to the actor and recorded the sale on a 2006 Safeway receipt.
Based on CA gun laws at the time (which have only become more restrictive), that would be completely illegal. Safeway receipt? Did Dalton just happen to have the guns with him? I find this story questionable ...
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
License to save on canned chili and lubricant with his Safeway Club Card!
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
However, with respect to Boothroyd's PPK, the "loaned to Fleming" statement provided by Christie's for the auction is not correct. Ian Fleming died in 1965, Boothroyd's pistol, Walther PPK #113158 was manufactured between the years 1968 and 1969. That information is readily available from a number of sources. While there is no doubt the Walther was Boothroyd's it simply did not exist during the time stated. One cannot precisely date a Walther PPK solely by it's "shape".
I don't know what provenance Christie's provided from Boothroyd's estate, but in my research (more than a few decades worth ) on literary Bond's handguns I never found reference to Boothroyd loaning or even owning a PPK in 1958. FWIW Boothroyd did loan Fleming a Smith & Wesson revolver, so that it could be painted by Richard Chopping for the cover of From Russia with Love. That loan caused some discomfort for both Fleming and Boothroyd when the Scottish Police decided to check the gun as a result of a homicide and Boothroyd couldn't produce it.
....
This is quite fascinating.
As ppw3o6r explains, this Ppk was sold via Christies by Boothroyd (estate).
One would have expected Christies to have known a 1968 pistol from a “war” pistol.
Similarly, the weapon now resides in The Royal Armouries, a museum of weapons.
They state in their “collections” page on their website that this is a c1939 ppk.
The slide is marked “Ulm/Do.” That is where the Walter factory relocated after WW2. On the other side of the pistol the year it was manufactured is usually visible next to proof marks on the barrel boss inside the ejection port. The RA page only shows one side of the pistol though.
I can’t say why there is so much bad information, lack of diligence I suppose ...
The slide is marked “Ulm/Do.” That is where the Walter factory relocated after WW2. On the other side of the pistol the year it was manufactured is usually visible next to proof marks on the barrel boss inside the ejection port. The RA page only shows one side of the pistol though.
I can’t say why there is so much bad information, lack of diligence I suppose ...
Thanks so much.
But are you saying you need to see the other side of the pistol before you can make an accurate determination?
Because ppw3o6r has already shown the other side in the pic above ?
It cleary shows the stamps and serials.
And asp9mm has shown the 7.625 serial no’s from the Walther documentation, though we need to see the .22 pages. That would suggest it may indeed be correct.
So it would help everyone, and prevent further waste of time if you could furnish one of those multiple sources you mentioned above.
I suspect someone has already contacted TRA so we should have their defense of their “lack of diligence” soon.
We’re all very grateful to you for exposing this “mistake”, and you are to be commended.
The .22 pistols are in a separate block of numbers, the pistol’s number is followed by LR, the .380 pistols have an A suffix. I will try and put up an online list ...
I below is a pictue from the auction of the right side of the pistol showing the serial number 110597LR (Boothroyd's was 113158LR) and the year code in the ejection port.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
Splendid. As you know I’ve got quite a bit of correspondence between IF and GB as the original novels have always been my main interest. I’ve never seen any evidence that Fleming was loaned a PPK off GB in any iteration. In fact he communicates that he is going to pay a London gun dealers a visit to handle one in detail. I’m sure if Fleming had the PPK in his possession at the same time as the S&W, then Chopping/Fleming wouldn’t have let the opportunity pass to have that on the cover of one of his books. Or at least would have mentioned it in the detailed letters passed between the two, or in Boothroyds own book and Flemings newspaper article published on the very subject.
Splendid. As you know I’ve got quite a bit of correspondence between IF and GB as the original novels have always been my main interest. I’ve never seen any evidence that Fleming was loaned a PPK off GB in any iteration. In fact he communicates that he is going to pay a London gun dealers a visit to handle one in detail. I’m sure if Fleming had the PPK in his possession at the same time as the S&W, then Chopping/Fleming wouldn’t have let the opportunity pass to have that on the cover of one of his books. Or at least would have mentioned it in the detailed letters passed between the two, or in Boothroyds own book and Flemings newspaper article published on the very subject.
Wow... can’t wait to hear TRA’s explanation, and of course, Christie’s embarrassment will be entertaining too.
Which begs the question, is there anyone left in museums or auction houses, that knows what they’re doing ???
As a collector, I’m very shocked and dismayed.
I’ll retreat to me sofa and and darken the shades...
Splendid. As you know I’ve got quite a bit of correspondence between IF and GB as the original novels have always been my main interest. I’ve never seen any evidence that Fleming was loaned a PPK off GB in any iteration. In fact he communicates that he is going to pay a London gun dealers a visit to handle one in detail. I’m sure if Fleming had the PPK in his possession at the same time as the S&W, then Chopping/Fleming wouldn’t have let the opportunity pass to have that on the cover of one of his books. Or at least would have mentioned it in the detailed letters passed between the two, or in Boothroyds own book and Flemings newspaper article published on the very subject.
The interesting thing is the date on the barrel although not clear does look like 57 or 58 when in reality it is probably 67 or 68? however one would have to assume & perhaps incorrectly? that all parties concerned with the pistol over the last 18 years would know that Fleming passed away in 1965 so if the date mark is indeed 67 then this blows the whole urban myth/back story clean out of the water!
My personal thanks to 7289 for bringing this little anomaly to the Bond community's & this aspiring author's attention -{
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
I can’t tell from the pics 100% and can’t be arsed to sort the catalogue out, but aren’t the rear sights squared off? That would certainly date it to mid/late Sixties too.
This is a grand example of “Buy the gun not the story”. A cursory look at Boothroyd’s PPK would reveal it is a post war pistol. The digits in the ejection port by the factory unequivocally denote the year the frame was manufactured. In the case of post war Walther pistols the Ulm/Do. on the slide is icing on the cake. As you can see from the picture posted above the 1967 made pistol has a serial number earlier than the Boothroyd pistol.
While Christie’s might be embarrassed, it’s way to late for legal redress by the buyer of that pistol. IMO whoever was responsible for writing up the catalog description got his notes wrong and confused the details surrounding the loan of Boothroyd’s S&W to Fleming with the PPK.
Last April I had the opportunity to speak with a catalogue writer for one of the biggest firearms auction firms in the USA. I expressed my opinion that he was lucky to have such a fascinating job. He shook his head and lamented that he was under a lot pressure to get the descriptions done, and the “fun” factor was very limited.
The lesson here is that whatever collectible you are buying ... do your own research! Don’t take anyone’s word. As President Reagan said “Trust but verify”. The fellow who bought Boothroyd’s PPK still has Boothroyd’s PPK ... that’s pretty nice. Too bad it has to sit in hock in the UK. Given the price listed on the Gunbroker” auction for a run of the mill .22 PPK he probably didn’t overpay.
Looks like this thread is going to consume my day today!
FWIW below is a list of Post WW2 PPK serial numbers. I added the blue check mark to indicate the line that provides the numbers for the steel framed .22 that belonged to Boothroyd ( please ignore the red box, it's unrelated). The list is courtesy of a scholarly work by Dieter Marschall, and was provided by friends on the Walther Forum. Production started in 1953 at 100295 by 1968 numbers had reached 112,000 (GB's was 113158).
Splendid. As you know I’ve got quite a bit of correspondence between IF and GB as the original novels have always been my main interest. I’ve never seen any evidence that Fleming was loaned a PPK off GB in any iteration. In fact he communicates that he is going to pay a London gun dealers a visit to handle one in detail. I’m sure if Fleming had the PPK in his possession at the same time as the S&W, then Chopping/Fleming wouldn’t have let the opportunity pass to have that on the cover of one of his books. Or at least would have mentioned it in the detailed letters passed between the two, or in Boothroyds own book and Flemings newspaper article published on the very subject.
Wow... can’t wait to hear TRA’s explanation, and of course, Christie’s embarrassment will be entertaining too.
Which begs the question, is there anyone left in museums or auction houses, that knows what they’re doing ???
As a collector, I’m very shocked and dismayed.
I’ll retreat to me sofa and and darken the shades...
It helps to understand the process:
Auction House: Where did you get this? What is the provenance?
Seller: From a source who shall remain anonymous, so I can protect him for future sales with you.
Auction House: Sounds good.
Now for some houses, they very, very carefully check the provenance and respond to inquiries like those from AJB. But these houses are the exception.
Splendid. As you know I’ve got quite a bit of correspondence between IF and GB as the original novels have always been my main interest. I’ve never seen any evidence that Fleming was loaned a PPK off GB in any iteration. In fact he communicates that he is going to pay a London gun dealers a visit to handle one in detail. I’m sure if Fleming had the PPK in his possession at the same time as the S&W, then Chopping/Fleming wouldn’t have let the opportunity pass to have that on the cover of one of his books. Or at least would have mentioned it in the detailed letters passed between the two, or in Boothroyds own book and Flemings newspaper article published on the very subject.
Wow... can’t wait to hear TRA’s explanation, and of course, Christie’s embarrassment will be entertaining too.
Which begs the question, is there anyone left in museums or auction houses, that knows what they’re doing ???
As a collector, I’m very shocked and dismayed.
I’ll retreat to me sofa and and darken the shades...
It helps to understand the process:
Auction House: Where did you get this? What is the provenance?
Seller: From a source who shall remain anonymous, so I can protect him for future sales with you.
Auction House: Sounds good.
Now for some houses, they very, very carefully check the provenance and respond to inquiries like those from AJB. But these houses are the exception.
Ah, there’s a process.... 8-)
I thought it was much more “hawk-shun....”
Hawk the goods...
Shun all responsibility for provenance....
So BCW, what’s the process for a Museum, whose ONLY product is weapons, and one that can still afford access to the interweby ?....
Personally, I feel strongly about this, as it narrows the market for these rare and precious icons of Bond. In the old days, when AJB had a pair, this thread would have been red hot with outrage
This thread feels a bit like a scene from the Odd Couple... 8-)
Is there a manual, or one of your Uber-tubers, that I can sit and suffer, to better understand this “process” 8-)
Comments
For The Most Famous Gun In The World I regrettably did not have access to the original Boothroyd PPK which was at the time in the vault of The Imperial War Museum in London, however the American owner was kind enough to furnish me with photo reference and copies of documentation from when he purchased the pistol from Christies in September 1998 for the considerable sum of £5,750. The Christies listing stated Boothroyd had loaned the pistol to Fleming in the late 1950's (see auction house link). The shape of the PPK would denote its manufacture to be from 1953 onwards Manurhin branded and 1956 onwards Walther branded although both would be made under license in France so the time line would certainly tie in with the publication of and therefore inclusion of Fleming's novel Dr.No in March 1958 -{
As for "casual researcher", I spent 8 years researching and confirming the content aiming for a 2012 50th Anniversary release date but to include certain memories/anecdotes further research had to be carried out missing the 50th Anniversary deadline which lead to the inclusion of inventory from SPECTRE. There were also further weapons which needed to be tracked down for inclusion & trust me that is not an easy task to do because it is not just a case of knowing a particular piece was used by " actor X" on Bond but where said weapon was used after Bond? As an example the AKS74U Brosnan used on Goldeneye was later used by Daniel Craig on Tomb Raider before it was finally used in Prague on Brad Pitt's movie World War Z where it was confiscated by the governing authorities carrying out a spot check on set & very nearly destroyed along with the majority of the weapons hired to the production. A current weapon from Daniel Craig's tenure as 007 was recently cannibalised for usage on the 2018 Terminator sequel!!
The main selling point of Famous Gun was that no stock weapons images would be used therefore inclusion would only be of the actual screen seen practical or stunt weaponry. From 1962 through to 2015, there are only 6 main character weapons which were not included in TMFGITW. Of those 6 weapons only two weapons, both from Goldfinger could not be tracked down for inclusion which again I would hardly call "casual Research!" Not all owners of such inventory wanted to contribute to the project. Many weapons were located regrettably after TMFGITW was published which may justify a further volume to include B25 when said production hits the big screen -{
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-walther-22lr-model-ppk-self-loading-pistol-1296797-details.aspx
Geoffrey Boothroyd's .22 calibre Walther PPK
I really wasn't referring to The Most Famous Gun In The World when I said "Guns often bring out endless experts and casual researchers". I have experienced folks as diverse as Police Officers, Soldiers, gun shop Employees and grocery clerks and writers saying the most annoying false hoods about firearms with great confidence and thunderous expertise.
However, with respect to Boothroyd's PPK, the "loaned to Fleming" statement provided by Christie's for the auction is not correct. Ian Fleming died in 1965, Boothroyd's pistol, Walther PPK #113158 was manufactured between the years 1968 and 1969. That information is readily available from a number of sources. While there is no doubt the Walther was Boothroyd's it simply did not exist during the time stated. One cannot precisely date a Walther PPK solely by it's "shape".
I don't know what provenance Christie's provided from Boothroyd's estate, but in my research (more than a few decades worth ) on literary Bond's handguns I never found reference to Boothroyd loaning or even owning a PPK in 1958. FWIW Boothroyd did loan Fleming a Smith & Wesson revolver, so that it could be painted by Richard Chopping for the cover of From Russia with Love. That loan caused some discomfort for both Fleming and Boothroyd when the Scottish Police decided to check the gun as a result of a homicide and Boothroyd couldn't produce it.
I think what happened with the Bernard Lee PPK is another example of "casual research". Christie's Auction House and the auction set up by Mr. Humbert clearly did not have the expertise to fully confirm what they were offering was "correct". This has also happened with the PPK pistol(s) attributed to "License to Kill" in that case pre-war pistols were offered for auction with "provenance", a little research would clearly show the pistol(s) in the film were all post war. Even the NRA Museum touted one of those "screen used" PPK pistols in a special display and video.
I think the main takeaway is "Caveat Emptor" , if your going to bid or buy something - do your research! With firearms there is a very old saying amoung collectors "buy the gun, not the story".
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Thank you for your detailed reply. Yes the "casual research" did burn a little. As for the Zella PPK pistol sold on by Stembridge Gun Rentals. The armourers did indeed provide Zella PPK pistols to the production of License Revoked however only one of those pistols appeared on screen in the LTK titles sequence. The pistols Dalton used on screen were the same 1972/73 pistols he had previously utilised in The Living Daylights which were shipped out from the UK armourers. I am not a Fleming expert & have never claimed to be. The tribute to Boothroyd at the end of TMFGITW was I must confess an afterthought because of what I had seen of Boothroyd in documentaries he appeared to be an eccentric British nutter who liked firing guns in the house! Of that belief I was clearly incorrect. The two pistols sold by Christies in 1998 were both accredited to Boothroyd with the modified Smith & Wesson .38 only achieving I believe £2500 compared to the £5,750 of the PPK with the nice back story. When it became clear some 14 years after the auction that because of ATF issues exporting the live weapons to the US that the pistols were still stored in the UK, both pistols were offered to myself at a price however my only interest was for the Smith & Wesson as 007 The Armoury really did not need another PPK at any price! Both pistols now reside at The Royal Armouries in Leeds in Gt Britain -{
I'm stunned that Boothroyd's .38 S&W went for half of what the PPK sold for. The S&W, was featured on a dust jacket and I would think that alone would have brought in more than twice as much as a run of the mill PPK. FRWL is perhaps the best of all Fleming's thrillers.
I find it humorous that you thought of Boothroyd as a "eccentric British nutter" since he does appear on screen as a bit odd. Firearms expertise was not mainstream in the late '50's and early '60's. Apparently no one bothered to write the likes of Agatha Christie or Raymond Chandler to complain about putting safeties on revolvers and other goofs.
I think a case could be made that Boothroyd really started the world wide fan obsession with guns (and other props) by his 1956 letter to Fleming. It is to Fleming's credit that he cared enough about what he was writing to answer Boothroyd and even make changes in his novels. But then Fleming was actually the master of "product placement" so maybe it's not much of a stretch for him to have replied to Boothroyd.
Beginning with Dr. No, film fans all over the world who loved the romance and drama of Bond's adventures were taken with the idea that by owning a Super XXX (insert your fav prop here) one could become a little bit like 007. It's hard not to want a gun so powerful it hits "like a brick though ..." or one that could "blow your head clean off." These things have become even more important as society has become more and more obsessed with gadgets rather than ideas.
I am curious about the early PPK used in the LTK credits. Was the title sequence filmed in the U.S. and why? I would have thought that was all done in the UK ... thus the regular Dalton PPK would have been easily available. But I am not any kind of expert on the firearms used in the films.
BTW I have been thinking of consigning these two pistols for auction. They were said to have come from an actor named "Loffel" something, who met Timothy Dalton in a Southern California supermarket. Dalton apparently kept the pistols after filming LTK. Tim sold them to the actor and recorded the sale on a 2006 Safeway receipt.
I'm thinking of a price in the six figures! (send inquiries via PM)
P.S. Images added because no post is worthwhile unless it has a picture or two
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
The proof of the pudding etc
Based on CA gun laws at the time (which have only become more restrictive), that would be completely illegal. Safeway receipt? Did Dalton just happen to have the guns with him? I find this story questionable ...
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
This is quite fascinating.
As ppw3o6r explains, this Ppk was sold via Christies by Boothroyd (estate).
One would have expected Christies to have known a 1968 pistol from a “war” pistol.
Similarly, the weapon now resides in The Royal Armouries, a museum of weapons.
They state in their “collections” page on their website that this is a c1939 ppk.
https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-101578.html
Again I’m flabbergasted that such a reputable museum would be so stupid and negligent!
Can you furnish any of those “multiple sources” ?
My own Walther archive manuals are in storage as we’ve recently moved.
But I think you owe it to TRA to prevent their further embarrassment!!
Cheers Paul
I can’t say why there is so much bad information, lack of diligence I suppose ...
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Thanks so much.
But are you saying you need to see the other side of the pistol before you can make an accurate determination?
Because ppw3o6r has already shown the other side in the pic above ?
It cleary shows the stamps and serials.
And asp9mm has shown the 7.625 serial no’s from the Walther documentation, though we need to see the .22 pages. That would suggest it may indeed be correct.
So it would help everyone, and prevent further waste of time if you could furnish one of those multiple sources you mentioned above.
I suspect someone has already contacted TRA so we should have their defense of their “lack of diligence” soon.
We’re all very grateful to you for exposing this “mistake”, and you are to be commended.
Cheers Paul
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/794868693
I below is a pictue from the auction of the right side of the pistol showing the serial number 110597LR (Boothroyd's was 113158LR) and the year code in the ejection port.
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Wow... can’t wait to hear TRA’s explanation, and of course, Christie’s embarrassment will be entertaining too.
Which begs the question, is there anyone left in museums or auction houses, that knows what they’re doing ???
As a collector, I’m very shocked and dismayed.
I’ll retreat to me sofa and and darken the shades...
The interesting thing is the date on the barrel although not clear does look like 57 or 58 when in reality it is probably 67 or 68? however one would have to assume & perhaps incorrectly? that all parties concerned with the pistol over the last 18 years would know that Fleming passed away in 1965 so if the date mark is indeed 67 then this blows the whole urban myth/back story clean out of the water!
My personal thanks to 7289 for bringing this little anomaly to the Bond community's & this aspiring author's attention -{
While Christie’s might be embarrassed, it’s way to late for legal redress by the buyer of that pistol. IMO whoever was responsible for writing up the catalog description got his notes wrong and confused the details surrounding the loan of Boothroyd’s S&W to Fleming with the PPK.
Last April I had the opportunity to speak with a catalogue writer for one of the biggest firearms auction firms in the USA. I expressed my opinion that he was lucky to have such a fascinating job. He shook his head and lamented that he was under a lot pressure to get the descriptions done, and the “fun” factor was very limited.
The lesson here is that whatever collectible you are buying ... do your own research! Don’t take anyone’s word. As President Reagan said “Trust but verify”. The fellow who bought Boothroyd’s PPK still has Boothroyd’s PPK ... that’s pretty nice. Too bad it has to sit in hock in the UK. Given the price listed on the Gunbroker” auction for a run of the mill .22 PPK he probably didn’t overpay.
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
FWIW below is a list of Post WW2 PPK serial numbers. I added the blue check mark to indicate the line that provides the numbers for the steel framed .22 that belonged to Boothroyd ( please ignore the red box, it's unrelated). The list is courtesy of a scholarly work by Dieter Marschall, and was provided by friends on the Walther Forum. Production started in 1953 at 100295 by 1968 numbers had reached 112,000 (GB's was 113158).
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
It helps to understand the process:
Auction House: Where did you get this? What is the provenance?
Seller: From a source who shall remain anonymous, so I can protect him for future sales with you.
Auction House: Sounds good.
Now for some houses, they very, very carefully check the provenance and respond to inquiries like those from AJB. But these houses are the exception.
Ah, there’s a process.... 8-)
I thought it was much more “hawk-shun....”
Hawk the goods...
Shun all responsibility for provenance....
So BCW, what’s the process for a Museum, whose ONLY product is weapons, and one that can still afford access to the interweby ?....
Personally, I feel strongly about this, as it narrows the market for these rare and precious icons of Bond. In the old days, when AJB had a pair, this thread would have been red hot with outrage
This thread feels a bit like a scene from the Odd Couple... 8-)
Is there a manual, or one of your Uber-tubers, that I can sit and suffer, to better understand this “process” 8-)