What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Number24

Many think Roger Moore was too old when he made AVTAK. Since I'm a Dalton fan and he was the one who took over from Moore in TLD I find it interesting speculating on how his AVTAK may had been like. Personally I think there are a few elements of AVTAK that actually would have fitted Dalton better than Moore: Zorin and Scarpine shooting the workers in the mine, the KGB agent getting brutally killed by the propeller in the pipe, Duran Duran and Grace Jones are among them. The obvious plus for Dalton was his age, because he was 39 and Moore was 57. Dalton would have been far more convincing in the more physical scenes and the age difference compared to the Bond Girls wouldn't have been jarring. I think the only one who would need recasting in this scenario would have been Moneypenny. The villains would have worked better with the younger Dalton, age wasn't really an issue for M and Q. I actually don't mind Tanya Roberts as Stacey. Just half the time she shouts "James!" and let her be kidnapped by Zorin before the airship takes off. What about Tibbet? I think the character as played by Patrick Macnee would have come across as the veteran agent who started in the service in WWII, and the guests at the palace would have seen him as the old family servant who'd probably been with St John Smythe's family since before he was born. Recasting to a young actor may have looked odd, an actor from another ethnic group may have looked questionable in the role as a servant and casting an actress may have looked superfluous or even wrong since Stacy Sutton is the woman Bond is focusing on at the castle.
What would have to go? "California Girls" in the PTS and perhaps some of the sillier elements, I think. I'd like it if they scrapped the whole"snowboard" idea and had Bond on a snowmobile longer. He'd be chased by soldiers on skis and snowmobiles and cross the lake on the snowmobile.
Q's robodog, the caricature Frenchmen and some of the quips and double entendres work for Moore, but not Dalton.
I think Dalton's Bond would have bedded Stacey after the fight at her house. Yes, in this version Dalton's Bond has more sex than Sir Roger Tucking her in for the night is fitting for a man at 57, but not a 39 year old Bond. Many of the action scenes could have been more vigorous and tough and the leading actor's face could have been shown more often during them.

I'd like to hear other members' opinion on this. :007)

Barbel

I think you're on the right lines. Perhaps a different PTS altogether, to introduce the new Bond?

zaphod99

Barbel wrote:

I think you're on the right lines. Perhaps a different PTS altogether, to introduce the new Bond?

Good idea. Also most of the problems with the film are due to a decrepit Sir Roger. Never convincing physically it became embarrassing by AVTAK. Would also loved to see Bowie as Zorin as was originally mooted.

Number24

Barbel wrote:

I think you're on the right lines. Perhaps a different PTS altogether, to introduce the new Bond?

I don't think there's any need to get a new PTS, Just cut out the silly bits and ad more though and believable action. One example is when Moore gets out a long line with an ancor, drops the ancor in a crevasse, skis aftera snowmobile with the rope, attaches the end of the rope to the driver of the snowmobile who gets pulled off his vehicle for Bond to jump on it. Dalton's Bodn would just've skied after the snowmobile, punched the driver and jumped on it. Dalton would probably even learn to ski and operate a snowmobile to be able to do some of the easier scenes himself.
AVTAK has relatively few gadgets and some really brutal scenes, and with a few modifications the movie would have worked fine for Dalton. Right now the only gadgets I can think of is the robodog and the special glasses he uses at the palace party.

Matt S

I can picture Dalton in the second half of AVTAK. St John Smythe is clearly written for Moore, and none of the other actors could pull that off. And I think Macnee was chosen for Moore as well. He would have an entirely different relationship with Dalton. Part of the reason why Macnee and Moore work together is that they're equals, and yet Bond gets to treat him so poorly in public. None of their chemistry would work with Dalton. This part of the film would have been entirely different with anyone other than Moore in the role. I have no idea what they would've done.

Number24

The St John Smythe scenes are in the first half of the film, but I see your point. I agree the relationship between Bond and Tibbet would have been different with Dalton as Bond. Moore and Macnee were old friends, so the chemestry would come as natural with Dalton. Both Dalton and Macnee were experienced actors, so the scens woud still work well. I don't think Bond would have brought Tibbet down to the lab under the stables, though. I still think the reationship would've worked, only in a different way. I also agree the palace scenes are best suited for Moore, much more than any other part of the film. I still think it would have worked if the plot was tweeked to fit Dalton more. Instead of the fairly silly obstacle course riding scene they could have done this. Bond is out riding on the castle grounds. Tibbet has just been killed and Zorin and his henchmen ride over to Bond to kill/capture him. A horseback chase ensues, first outside and later in the hallways, stairs and rooms in the palace itself.

Matt S

Number24 wrote:

The St John Smythe scenes are in the first half of the film, but I see your point. I agree the relationship between Bond and Tibbet would have been different with Dalton as Bond. Moore and Macnee were old friends, so the chemestry would come as natural with Dalton. Both Dalton and Macnee were experienced actors, so the scens woud still work well. I don't think Bond would have brought Tibbet down to the lab under the stables, though. I still think the reationship would've worked, only in a different way. I also agree the palace scenes are best suited for Moore, much more than any other part of the film. I still think it would have worked if the plot was tweeked to fit Dalton more. Instead of the fairly silly obstacle course riding scene they could have done this. Bond is out riding on the castle grounds. Tibbet has just been killed and Zorin and his henchmen ride over to Bond to kill/capture him. A horseback chase ensues, first outside and later in the hallways, stairs and rooms in the palace itself.

I know the St John Smythe scenes are i the first half, which is why I said "I can picture Dalton in the second half of AVTAK".

I don't think they would have written Dalton to play a pompous heir, but that's how Bond is able to infiltrate Zorin's world. Dalton just wouldn't be able to pull it off and I think if they tried anything close to what they did in the first half of the film with Moore people would have hated Dalton. It would not have been the right way to start off his tenure, but it was a fantastic way to send off Moore, having Moore play an exaggerated version of himself, like Brett Sinclair. Dalton would have needed a more updated setting and circumstance with more action. There wouldn't have been anything to do with horses at a French chateau in Dalton's version. Maybe we could have seen more of Paris and something adapted from From a View to a Kill beyond the setting.

Number24

I misread your post, like you pointed out.

I think an experienced actor like Dalton would have no problem at all playing a pompus heir, but I agree an other way of infiltrating Zorin's inner circle would have suited his Bond better.

Thunderpussy

I agree a different PTS, and a younger Bond in Dalton, would have been interesting {[]
Although I may be in the minority of fans, who actually like AVTAK as it's Roger's last
Bond outing, it has a sentimental tug on the heart strings effect on me.

Number24

AVTAK is actually one of the Roger Moore Bonds I enjoy most, in spite of its shortcomings. I wonder: What is it you don't like about the PTS (other than "California Girls"?) I think it's a fine PTS if you ignore the song and snowboarding.

Thunderpussy

Just as Barbel pointed out, more of an "Introducing a new Bond " vibe. I actually like
the snowboarding sequence, perhaps a different ending, without the motorised iceberg ?

Matt S

Thunderpussy wrote:

I agree a different PTS, and a younger Bond in Dalton, would have been interesting {[]
Although I may be in the minority of fans, who actually like AVTAK as it's Roger's last
Bond outing, it has a sentimental tug on the heart strings effect on me.

I like it too. I'm more of a fan of the first half, while most people favour the second half. The first half is just so Moore, while the second half doesn't play to his strengths so well, which is where Dalton may have done a better job.

I think Moore is one of the strengths of the film rather than the story. I think it would have been a terrible script overall to introduce a new Bond with.

Number24

Thunderpussy wrote:

Just as Barbel pointed out, more of an "Introducing a new Bond " vibe. I actually like
the snowboarding sequence, perhaps a different ending, without the motorised iceberg ?

I forgot the "iceberg" is actually a gadget, but AVTAK is still a "gadget-light" Bond movie. I think the idea fits Moore well, but the of it isn't good enough. Being picked up by a Royal Navy submarine would probably suit Dalton better. He could climb down through the tower, salute the captain and present himself as "Commander Bond, James Bond". I think that would be a good introduction for a new 007.

Thunderpussy

Especially if that Navy Captain was a " Major Babe " ...... OOPs
Still thinking of a Sir Roger, Bond film !

Barbel

Yeah, that would work.

Number24

Imagine Bond bringing down the helicopter using a flair (just like in the real movie), but Bond jumps back on the snowmobile. He's chased by soldiers on skis and snowmobiles, but they stop when he drives into the water and heads into open sea. They shoot at him from the shore, but are convinced he's without a chance. Then a RN submarine surfaces and Bond drives the snowmobile on to the sub. He runs from the "parked" snowmobile while Russian bullets whiz past him, climbs up the tower and closes the hatch behind him. Teh sub dives while 007 salutes the captain and says "Commander Bond, James Bond". I'd pay to see that.

ToTheRight

I have a hard time picturing Timothy delivering the lines:

"A little soap here.............a little soap there.

Drat! I dropped the soap.

THAT is not the soap.

Ha ha, OOOOOOH!"

Thunderpussy

I think Dalton is more of a shower gel guy

Number24

Besides, Dalton wouldn't have said "drat". He would have mouthed another four letter word. :v

Number24

I just remembered another gadget in AVTAK: the camera in the ring. But I still think the movie is less reliant on gadgets than many other Bonds. The only time a gadget is used by Bond to get himself out of a tricky/dangerous situation is the "iceberg" in the PTS. Bond usually saves himself and Stacey using bravery and rescourcefulness, and I like that.

I've been thinking about how the horses and the castle could have been changed to something that fitted Dalton better. Perhaps Zorin cheats in motor racing instead of horse racing? Bond could have infiltrated his organisation by posing as a race car driver. This would have fitted Dalton better, but the subplot of genetic engineering wouldn't be relevant in this scenario.

Speaking of this: in the DVD commentary it's revealed that not only Zorin was meant to be a Reickind - May Day was supposed to be a result of the Lebensborn program too! Imagine the nazis making a black superwoman
Thank God that not in the movie, it would be as unrealistic as Stomberg's underwater society.

James Suzuki

Don't forget those sunglasses which limit shade or something which he uses to snoop round Zorins office. They count as a gadget. )

Number24

Yes, I think I mentioned it. Not the most spectacular or stylish gadget 007 has used over the years

Thunderpussy

They were polarised lenses, which remove reflections, I used to
Use them taking photos of lakes or cars to remove reflections.

Number24

TP educating AJB. Thanks!

While the few gadgets in AVTAK has some use, other than the "iceberg" all of them could be taken out of the movie without any impact on the plot.

superado

I think Dalton’s serious and taciturn Bond would have had better chemistry against the jaunty and arrogant Zorin. Bond’s rapport with the main villain is arguably the most critical element in a Bond movie.

Licencetochat

I could totally picture Dalton in the Eiffel tower scenes when mayday jumps off. I can picture his serious face similar to when we first see his face in the pts in daylights )

Golrush007

I can definitely see Dalton's Bond going up against the youthful villain pairing of Zorin and May Day. Certainly from a physical point-of-view it would suit Dalton's more youthful and energetic Bond. Also, Dalton's darker (dare I even say dour?) take on Bond would be an interesting counterpoint to the flamboyant performance of Walken. I would also like the idea of Dalton's Bond attempting to play the part of a "pompous heir" as this would be something of a stretch for his version of the Bond character, and could create a few moments of difficulty for Bond which would be intriguing to watch. On the other hand, the Moore-Macnee chemistry would be sorely missed. I think that the combo of those two actors on screen is one of the reasons that AVTAK is a film that I like to rewatch more often than many others (even though Macnee doesn't have that much screen time in the film).

Certainly Dalton could have brought a level of credibility to a lot of the action scenes, and not been as reliant on stunt doubles as Moore clearly was. It's definitely an enticing prospect to consider, but on the other hand, what would AVTAK be without the repeated cries of "Whooooooah" from Bond?

Number24

The Moore/Macnee chemistry was great, but especially in the Ascot scenes it looks really strange with an elderly M, Moneypenny and the two of them in an action film. I wonder if Dalton would have worked better than Moore as St John Smythe. The reason is that Smythe wasn't that far away from Moore's usual style and persona, sometimes it feels like we're watching his usual Bond routine with another name. Dalton's Bond would have been further away from the Smythe character making it more of a contrast. A very good actor such as Dalton wouldn't have any problems portaying Smythe anyway.

It's in threads like this we notice Higgins is on holliday

Dirty Punker

I don't know how much lies with Dalton or Moore being the main man. To me, it wasn't always the actor but the story and then the actor making it be what it is. In this case, A View To a Kill needed a big brush up for it to be even better than what it would've been.

I mean, you can't make scenes that drag on or humour that's a bit off better by just replacing the main man. To me, Moore being old and doing all that just adds to it lol, a practice in how far you can suspend your disbelief. That's what A View To a Kill is to me.

Matt S

The problem with AVTAK is that the writing is lazy, and the writing is expecting Bond to be lazy. It’s written for Moore, expecting Moore to be Moore and expecting that an actor who is 56/57 years old won’t be doing much action. If you put any other Bond actor into the same script it would be even worse. At least with Moore in the role there is an excuse. No other actor could improve the film because we would be expecting a lot more from the whole film.

Some people say that the film would have been better if Moore’s age was acknowledged n the film. It is, just very subtly by how the film expects Bond to take things easy (when not in the bedroom/shower).

DavidJones

It would be better to just jettison AVTAK altogether and go straight to TLD.

AVTAK was so obviously written for Roger, and with so little effort behind it, that it doesn't make sense as anything other than a tired, just-another-Bond-film. And I say that as someone who enjoys it for the most part, even if I do think it's a lesser entry. TLD, on the other hand, felt like it was something close to a mission statement: a grittier, more serious espionage film.

More crucially, if Dalton had been approached, would he have wanted to appear in a film like that?