"... and into which level of ‚cartoonishness‘ falls the 90 degree bend in the pipeline When Koskow is being smuggled out of Bratislava if we are talking seriously?"
I think that's a production error...
To be fair there are more cartoonish moments in TLD than LTK, such as the ghetto blaster and the monkey jumpscaring Bond in the PTS. LTK by contrast has almost nothing save for the Q scene. This is why it lacks the necessary Bond charm to succeed as part of the series. Even the Daniel Craig Casino Royale has a few moments of genuine wit and levity, unlike the utterly dour LTK...
Surely having read the novels is a plus in Dalton's general favour rather than a criticism? I read somewhere that Lazenby read Fleming's OHMSS and Brosnan read Fleming's GF but not sure about the others.
Connery said in an interview had read three Fleming novels. I think this was while he was making DAF. One of the novels was TB, I can't remember the others.
LTK as I have explained is a film I consider to be among the worst in the series.
Dalton's performance is less of a flaw than the plot, overexaggerated violence, poor use of contemporary politics, mostly unstirring action, and dull overall 'look'. Again, see the original essay and subsequent remarks for a lengthy dissertation on the above points.
Out of interest, what is your general opinion of TLD? I hazard a guess its not very positive...
Connery said in an interview had read three Fleming novels. I think this was while he was making DAF. One of the novels was TB, I can't remember the others.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't remember either these days.
To me TLD is a pathetic piece of dogpoo.
I like LTK much, much better as the locations are better and Dalton does not annoy me there with his cute-romantic moments with Kara - and it has no balloon-popping 8-)
In TLD Dalton shows glaringly that he was miscast, the role is too big for his personality and his attempts to overplay his personal shortcomings with Shakespeare makes it even worse
You‘ve asked for it, imo TLD is bad - DAF level bad!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Hah, I really enjoy that you‘ve started this thread.
It‘s now some weeks ago since the last Dalton Defender came up.
I really enjoy your new theories and your constant denial to even remotely consider that the main issue was Dalton.
You may be interested in digging a bit deeper here:
Always nice to hear from you, Higgins, and to be reminded not only of your opinions, but of the fact that we are all idiots wearing blinders and making excuses for not landing in exactly the same spot as you. Such fun.
Always nice to hear from you, Higgins, and to be reminded not only of your opinions, but of the fact that we are all idiots wearing blinders and making excuses for not landing in exactly the same spot as you. Such fun.
Well put, Sir Hillary!
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
) I see a new Dalton-related thread with a serious sounding title and I find the biggest Dalton fan ever at the very end, Higgins! I’ve been rewatching Magnum, P.I. and I’m now on Season 7, and when I read these post I can hear Higgins speaking!
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
Always nice to hear from you, Higgins, and to be reminded not only of your opinions, but of the fact that we are all idiots wearing blinders and making excuses for not landing in exactly the same spot as you. Such fun.
Welcome
You are taking this far too seriously - keep in mind that I have and still do receive a lot of flak for my position re. Dalton
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
SpectreOfDefeat, recently we have been group watching the James Bond films and commenting live upon them as we watch. You may find our thoughts interesting:
I have and still do receive a lot of flak for my position re. Dalton
Not surprisingly. He wasn't a bad actor, his films did not flop (yes, other films made more money- as can be said of other Bond films- but his did not lose money), and he did not spend most of his time crying onscreen.
Thanks, Sir Miles, I'll definitely check them out.
Meanwhile- any other hot takes/sizzling critiques/centrist middle ground views/thoughts on Dalton and LTK? Possibly relating to my question on the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the film's romantic elements?
I presume checking out those watchalong threads is considered shocking, Barbel.
Positively shocking...
To drag the discussion back towards LTK's relative merits:
"Meanwhile- any other hot takes/sizzling critiques/centrist middle ground views/thoughts on Dalton and LTK? Possibly relating to my question on the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the film's romantic elements?"
Ah I see the problem now- genuinely misunderstood what was being pointed out there. My mistake, Barbel- an error of quick typing, embarrassingly. No confusion intended between yourself and any other members. Please accept my sincere apologies- still new round here.
I'll be sure to check out the watchalong thread- thanks for the suggestion.
On with the LTK discussion...
Not surprisingly. He wasn't a bad actor, his films did not flop (yes, other films made more money- as can be said of other Bond films- but his did not lose money), and he did not spend most of his time crying onscreen.
Let‘s just say for argument sake that the Bond franchise is strong enough that even a miscast and unpopular main actor could not pull the movie in the negative figures
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"Let‘s just say for argument sake that the Bond franchise is strong enough that even a miscast and unpopular main actor could not pull the movie in the negative figures "
I'd contend that on the contrary, the strength of the 'Bond brand' had been slowly declining throughout the decade in the face of serious competition. In the specific case of LTK, if I had been hypothetically standing outside a multiplex in the summer of '89 facing the choice of either the latest Bond, Indiana Jones or Lethal Weapon 2, ticket sales show that many audience members- particularly in the US- plumped for the rival franchises. The 'Bond name' was already tarnished through its inconsistent quality and tone in the 80s.
One other aspect I don't think has been discussed was the poor marketing campaign. The dull photographic posters of cross scowly Timothy compare especially badly with the colourful and exciting painting artwork done to promote AVTAK and TLD. How about the uninspired promotion turning viewers away- linking to the original title of Licence Revoked being changed after testing badly?
One other aspect I don't think has been discussed was the poor marketing campaign.
That has been discussed over and over and on and on here.....
Standard excuse why Timmyboy failed.
And the ‚Strong Competition‘ and ‚Wrong Season‚ (Summer release) as well
Having said this, when the Bond Franchise was on a decline ( your argument - not mine) how do you explain the success of GE?
And please don‘t make it easy by using the ‚Bond fans where drought out by the long wait and thus ran the theatres‘ argument.
People wanted Brosnan, people where happy to see Brosnan as Bond and voted with their wallets.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"In the specific case of LTK, if I had been hypothetically standing outside a multiplex in the summer of '89 facing the choice of either the latest Bond, Indiana Jones or Lethal Weapon 2, ticket sales show that many audience members- particularly in the US- plumped for the rival franchises."
This might initially appear to contradict my previous assertion that franchise fatigue wasn't the main reason for LTK's failure. I still think that. I'm just trying to assert that multiple reasons acted together to impact on LTK's underperformance. The main consistent through line of my case, which I've kept since the original essay's ideas, is that Dalton's presence wasn't the deciding factor.
Also, describing Dalton as "miscast and unpopular" belies the heart of the matter. Rather than being unpopular, I think Dalton was almost unknown outside of the UK at the time of his casting- unlike, say, Roger Moore in 1973 or Pierce Brosnan in 1995. Unlike either of those two, Dalton never managed to shake the perception of being a lesser regarded actor. As said before, the fact that Eon actually wanted Pierce in 1986 for TLD, and some other crew members also preferred Sam Neill, didn't help Dalton's credibility much at the time either...
"Having said this, when the Bond Franchise was on a decline ( your argument - not mine) how do you explain the success of GE?
And please don‘t make it easy by using the ‚Bond fans where drought out by the long wait and thus ran the theatres‘ argument.
People wanted Brosnan, people where happy to see Brosnan as Bond and voted with their wallets."
Challenge duly accepted. I'll try to avoid the 'long wait' argument and instead look at two others...
1) In the mid-1990s, there was a wave of cultural nostalgia for the 1960s. British music (Oasis, Blur) and art drew on the 1960s for inspiration. This cultural affection for British exports eventually became Cool Britannia and this generated nostalgia for the 60s Connery Bond films. Thus Bond was again viewed with warmth by the general public and not derision, and GoldenEye was released at exactly the right framing moment to capitalise on this phenomenon.
2) GoldenEye is qualitatively much better than LTK, with a more exotic Bond 'feel', inventive action and dynamic direction. As such it was positively reviewed by contemporary critics and thus drew significantly higher box office returns.
There you have it, two decent reasons separate from the "long wait" and "specific demand for Brosnan" arguments. Howzat?
Comments
I think that's a production error...
To be fair there are more cartoonish moments in TLD than LTK, such as the ghetto blaster and the monkey jumpscaring Bond in the PTS. LTK by contrast has almost nothing save for the Q scene. This is why it lacks the necessary Bond charm to succeed as part of the series. Even the Daniel Craig Casino Royale has a few moments of genuine wit and levity, unlike the utterly dour LTK...
"The spectre of defeat..."
You have my blessing - you can now officially call yourself a Timboy.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Connery said in an interview had read three Fleming novels. I think this was while he was making DAF. One of the novels was TB, I can't remember the others.
LTK as I have explained is a film I consider to be among the worst in the series.
Dalton's performance is less of a flaw than the plot, overexaggerated violence, poor use of contemporary politics, mostly unstirring action, and dull overall 'look'. Again, see the original essay and subsequent remarks for a lengthy dissertation on the above points.
Out of interest, what is your general opinion of TLD? I hazard a guess its not very positive...
"The spectre of defeat..."
I'm pretty sure he doesn't remember either these days.
Any other views on the action/plot/etc of LTK? Furthermore is it in fact considered by some to be superior to TLD?
"The spectre of defeat..."
You're asking Higgins his opinion of TLD?
I like LTK much, much better as the locations are better and Dalton does not annoy me there with his cute-romantic moments with Kara - and it has no balloon-popping 8-)
In TLD Dalton shows glaringly that he was miscast, the role is too big for his personality and his attempts to overplay his personal shortcomings with Shakespeare makes it even worse
You‘ve asked for it, imo TLD is bad - DAF level bad!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It‘s now some weeks ago since the last Dalton Defender came up.
I really enjoy your new theories and your constant denial to even remotely consider that the main issue was Dalton.
You may be interested in digging a bit deeper here:
https://ajb007.co.uk/topic/52531/ajb-live-commentary-on-tld/
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Kara and Bond in TLD
VS
"I love James so much!" from Lupe in LTK...
Bond comes across as unsympathetic to Lupe's plight, a case of bad writing. Both Lupe and Pam are weakly acted in my view...
What do others think of the romantic aspect of the film?
"The spectre of defeat..."
Well put, Sir Hillary!
Welcome
You are taking this far too seriously - keep in mind that I have and still do receive a lot of flak for my position re. Dalton
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
TLD:
https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/52531/ajb-live-commentary-on-tld/
LTK:
https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/52625/ajb-live-commentary-on-ltk/
Not surprisingly. He wasn't a bad actor, his films did not flop (yes, other films made more money- as can be said of other Bond films- but his did not lose money), and he did not spend most of his time crying onscreen.
TLD:
https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/52531/aj … ry-on-tld/
LTK:
https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/52625/aj … ry-on-ltk/"
Thanks, Sir Miles, I'll definitely check them out.
Meanwhile- any other hot takes/sizzling critiques/centrist middle ground views/thoughts on Dalton and LTK? Possibly relating to my question on the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the film's romantic elements?
"The spectre of defeat..."
Penalty shot with no goalkeeper for me
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Positively shocking...
To drag the discussion back towards LTK's relative merits:
"Meanwhile- any other hot takes/sizzling critiques/centrist middle ground views/thoughts on Dalton and LTK? Possibly relating to my question on the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the film's romantic elements?"
"The spectre of defeat..."
Well, at least you got my name right this time.
I'll be sure to check out the watchalong thread- thanks for the suggestion.
On with the LTK discussion...
"The spectre of defeat..."
Let‘s just say for argument sake that the Bond franchise is strong enough that even a miscast and unpopular main actor could not pull the movie in the negative figures
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'd contend that on the contrary, the strength of the 'Bond brand' had been slowly declining throughout the decade in the face of serious competition. In the specific case of LTK, if I had been hypothetically standing outside a multiplex in the summer of '89 facing the choice of either the latest Bond, Indiana Jones or Lethal Weapon 2, ticket sales show that many audience members- particularly in the US- plumped for the rival franchises. The 'Bond name' was already tarnished through its inconsistent quality and tone in the 80s.
One other aspect I don't think has been discussed was the poor marketing campaign. The dull photographic posters of cross scowly Timothy compare especially badly with the colourful and exciting painting artwork done to promote AVTAK and TLD. How about the uninspired promotion turning viewers away- linking to the original title of Licence Revoked being changed after testing badly?
"The spectre of defeat..."
That has been discussed over and over and on and on here.....
Standard excuse why Timmyboy failed.
And the ‚Strong Competition‘ and ‚Wrong Season‚ (Summer release) as well
Having said this, when the Bond Franchise was on a decline ( your argument - not mine) how do you explain the success of GE?
And please don‘t make it easy by using the ‚Bond fans where drought out by the long wait and thus ran the theatres‘ argument.
People wanted Brosnan, people where happy to see Brosnan as Bond and voted with their wallets.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
"In the specific case of LTK, if I had been hypothetically standing outside a multiplex in the summer of '89 facing the choice of either the latest Bond, Indiana Jones or Lethal Weapon 2, ticket sales show that many audience members- particularly in the US- plumped for the rival franchises."
This might initially appear to contradict my previous assertion that franchise fatigue wasn't the main reason for LTK's failure. I still think that. I'm just trying to assert that multiple reasons acted together to impact on LTK's underperformance. The main consistent through line of my case, which I've kept since the original essay's ideas, is that Dalton's presence wasn't the deciding factor.
Also, describing Dalton as "miscast and unpopular" belies the heart of the matter. Rather than being unpopular, I think Dalton was almost unknown outside of the UK at the time of his casting- unlike, say, Roger Moore in 1973 or Pierce Brosnan in 1995. Unlike either of those two, Dalton never managed to shake the perception of being a lesser regarded actor. As said before, the fact that Eon actually wanted Pierce in 1986 for TLD, and some other crew members also preferred Sam Neill, didn't help Dalton's credibility much at the time either...
"The spectre of defeat..."
Dalton was a casting error and the US distribution urgend EON to fire him
* in the UK and elsewhere
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And please don‘t make it easy by using the ‚Bond fans where drought out by the long wait and thus ran the theatres‘ argument.
People wanted Brosnan, people where happy to see Brosnan as Bond and voted with their wallets."
Challenge duly accepted. I'll try to avoid the 'long wait' argument and instead look at two others...
1) In the mid-1990s, there was a wave of cultural nostalgia for the 1960s. British music (Oasis, Blur) and art drew on the 1960s for inspiration. This cultural affection for British exports eventually became Cool Britannia and this generated nostalgia for the 60s Connery Bond films. Thus Bond was again viewed with warmth by the general public and not derision, and GoldenEye was released at exactly the right framing moment to capitalise on this phenomenon.
2) GoldenEye is qualitatively much better than LTK, with a more exotic Bond 'feel', inventive action and dynamic direction. As such it was positively reviewed by contemporary critics and thus drew significantly higher box office returns.
There you have it, two decent reasons separate from the "long wait" and "specific demand for Brosnan" arguments. Howzat?
"The spectre of defeat..."