Thanks! Do you think the back height is quite correct? I would have suspected it was higher/deeper?
BaB
Seems right to me. They have the actual pattern… the only possibility is that they are giving you the TND collar instead by accident (which looks more like the POW if you ask me)? That being said, 3” points and the 1 and 3/4” back height sounds about right.
Thanks! Do you think the back height is quite correct? I would have suspected it was higher/deeper?
BaB
Seems right to me. They have the actual pattern… the only possibility is that they are giving you the TND collar instead by accident (which looks more like the POW if you ask me)? That being said, 3” points and the 1 and 3/4” back height sounds about right.
The TND collar is a POW collar with slight modifications, so this does sound more like the TND collar to me. 1 3/4" is the standard back height of T&A collars, and the TWINE collar looks a wee bit higher to me.
I measured the T&A tag on an old RTW T&A shirt I bought in early 2003 (so made in 2002 most likely) and it was about 3 cm in height.
Using that as reference I measured the tag in the photo on my screen to 2.2 CM. That means that the ratio is 3/2.2 = 1.363
Measuring the back height and collar points and scaling up by 1.363 yields the following:
Back height: 5.727 CM = approx 2 1/4 inches
Collar points: 8.863 CM = approx 3 1/2 inches
Does this seem right to you?
EDIT: Measuring the button on one of my shirts, that is exactly 1 CM in diameter. Measuring the Bilbao shirt on screen (using the link and zooming in) I also measure the button to 1 CM in diameter. That actually means the photo is to a 1:1 scale!
Assuming that photo is 1:1, the back height is actually 1 3/4 and point lengths about 3 inches! Now I'm reeaally confused!!
I measured the T&A tag on an old RTW T&A shirt I bought in early 2003 (so made in 2002 most likely) and it was about 3 cm in height.
Using that as reference I measured the tag in the photo on my screen to 2.2 CM. That means that the ratio is 3/2.2 = 1.363
Measuring the back height and collar points and scaling up by 1.363 yields the following:
Back height: 5.727 CM = approx 2 1/4 inches
Collar points: 8.863 CM = approx 3 1/2 inches
Does this seem right to you?
BaB
No, that's not quite right. Those measurements would make this a Roger Moore-sized collar, and from the film it doesn't look that large. Based on the placket being stitched 3/8" from the edge and the collar being stitched 1/4" from the edge (T&A varies their collar collar stitching on different shirts, but comparing it to the placket, this collar has 1/4" stitching), here's what I found:
Point length = 3 1/8"
Back height = 2"
Also, when you see the collar laying on the shirt in this manner, it's clearly wider than a POW collar.
Based on Blair's video, Brosnan has 1 of each collar type on his paper pattern, and we know he's not wearing the No3 or the Classic collar in TWINE (for the Bilbao scene). That leaves the Regent and the POW. If you think T&A did not identify the correct collar for you it must be the other one then. Maybe you can ask for the measurements for the other one and can probably deduce from there.
No, that's not quite right. Those measurements would make this a Roger Moore-sized collar, and from the film it doesn't look that large. Based on the placket being stitched 3/8" from the edge and the collar being stitched 1/4" from the edge (T&A varies their collar collar stitching on different shirts, but comparing it to the placket, this collar has 1/4" stitching), here's what I found:
Point length = 3 1/8"
Back height = 2"
Also, when you see the collar laying on the shirt in this manner, it's clearly wider than a POW collar.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense! I adjusted my measurements too based on the button diameter (see edited post above) and then landed on the exact measurements T&A gave me... hmm...
Based on Blair's video, Brosnan has 1 of each collar type on his paper pattern, and we know he's not wearing the No3 or the Classic collar in TWINE (for the Bilbao scene). That leaves the Regent and the POW. If you think T&A did not identify the correct collar for you it must be the other one then. Maybe you can ask for the measurements for the other one and can probably deduce from there.
So maybe it is an adjusted Regent collar? Cause I don't think it is as wide as the normal Regent?
No, that's not quite right. Those measurements would make this a Roger Moore-sized collar, and from the film it doesn't look that large. Based on the placket being stitched 3/8" from the edge and the collar being stitched 1/4" from the edge (T&A varies their collar collar stitching on different shirts, but comparing it to the placket, this collar has 1/4" stitching), here's what I found:
Point length = 3 1/8"
Back height = 2"
Also, when you see the collar laying on the shirt in this manner, it's clearly wider than a POW collar.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense! I adjusted my measurements too based on the button diameter (see edited post above) and then landed on the exact measurements T&A gave me... hmm...
Based on Blair's video, Brosnan has 1 of each collar type on his paper pattern, and we know he's not wearing the No3 or the Classic collar in TWINE (for the Bilbao scene). That leaves the Regent and the POW. If you think T&A did not identify the correct collar for you it must be the other one then. Maybe you can ask for the measurements for the other one and can probably deduce from there.
So maybe it is an adjusted Regent collar? Cause I don't think it is as wide as the normal Regent?
BaB
The designer of the collar said it's a wider POW collar rather than an adjusted Regent, though the angle of the collar leaf looks more like a Regent to me. When you give a collar extra front band height but don't lengthen the points enough, the collar will angle down more. That may be why the collar looks narrower than a Regent collar.
The designer of the collar said it's a wider POW collar rather than an adjusted Regent, though the angle of the collar leaf looks more like a Regent to me. When you give a collar extra front band height but don't lengthen the points enough, the collar will angle down more. That may be why the collar looks narrower than a Regent collar.
Thanks Matt.
Another thing I don't get is why the Bilbao shirt only has 7 buttons. Their bespoke shirts always have 8 buttons, only RTW have 7. Given that the collar is clearly bespoke, this does not add up to me.
The designer of the collar said it's a wider POW collar rather than an adjusted Regent, though the angle of the collar leaf looks more like a Regent to me. When you give a collar extra front band height but don't lengthen the points enough, the collar will angle down more. That may be why the collar looks narrower than a Regent collar.
Thanks Matt.
Another thing I don't get is why the Bilbao shirt only has 7 buttons. Their bespoke shirts always have 8 buttons, only RTW have 7. Given that the collar is clearly bespoke, this does not add up to me.
BaB
It's bespoke so hard to put hard rules on things like # of buttons. My bespoke shirts from T&A have 6 buttons (not including the collar, which usually isn't included in the count of # of buttons). Would need to know what their standard approach was back in 1999 as well.
The designer of the collar said it's a wider POW collar rather than an adjusted Regent, though the angle of the collar leaf looks more like a Regent to me. When you give a collar extra front band height but don't lengthen the points enough, the collar will angle down more. That may be why the collar looks narrower than a Regent collar.
Thanks Matt.
Another thing I don't get is why the Bilbao shirt only has 7 buttons. Their bespoke shirts always have 8 buttons, only RTW have 7. Given that the collar is clearly bespoke, this does not add up to me.
BaB
The bespoke shirts do not always have more buttons. 6 buttons plus collar was fairly standard for them until recently. Now they have 7 buttons plus collar on RTW. It depends on height in bespoke. Brosnan's not so tall that he needs another button. They added another button to my bespoke shirts, but I don't use it because it's too low and makes sitting feel constricting. It's only really necessary if you're wearing low-rise trousers, which Brosnan never wore.
I just checked. RTW shirt from 2002/3 has 7 buttons.
My bespoke shirts since 2009 have 8 buttons. I’m 6 ft. I think Brosnan is 6.2 or something?
BaB
RTW shirts until 2018 only had 6 buttons.
Brosnan is 6'1". It wasn't unusual back then for their bespoke shirts to have only 6 buttons rather than 7. It might also depend on who is fitting you.
Yah, I'm pretty sure that their RTW shirts for the longest time had 6 buttons (7 if you include the collar). If you look up their shirts on ebay the marketplace is flooded with older rtw shirts that have 6 buttons.
Yah, I'm pretty sure that their RTW shirts for the longest time had 6 buttons (7 if you include the collar). If you look up their shirts on ebay the marketplace is flooded with older rtw shirts that have 6 buttons.
Strange. I have a RTW shirt I bought in London in January 2003 with turnback cuffs (which is why I bought it) and it has 7 buttons. The same with another shirt with turnback cuffs (which even had the regent collar)bought in the NYC a few years later.
Brosnan is 6'1". It wasn't unusual back then for their bespoke shirts to have only 6 buttons rather than 7. It might also depend on who is fitting you.
Interesting. But as I think that you also note on your blog entry about this shirt, it has a certain RTW look to it? Even using placket button (which they do on Sea Island cloths) and that it is referred to as Turnbuline?
The # of buttons is an interesting question, but I don't think there's really any debating whether his shirts were bespoke, is there? T&A's marketing materials for the new Bond items includes the historical bespoke order forms.
As for your pic - that's interesting! That looks like the collar from Thomas Crown Affair. Also the one worn by Pierce at the DAD press announcement.
The # of buttons is an interesting question, but I don't think there's really any debating whether his shirts were bespoke, is there? T&A's marketing materials for the new Bond items includes the historical bespoke order forms.
As for your pic - that's interesting! That looks like the collar from Thomas Crown Affair. Also the one worn by Pierce at the DAD press announcement.
Yes, that indeed looks like the PoW collar. And I think there is general agreement that the PoW collar was used for TND?
I set out below perhaps the best view of the collar worn in the Bilbao scene (from Matt's blog), and that is definitely wider/different.
And here's the PoW collar as displayed in the Bury st store.
Looks brilliant! I do like a high collar like that!
Thanks! And here's my version of the regent collar (which I mostly wear).
Now what to do to get T&A to properly make the TWINE collar? 8-)
BaB
You'll have to tell them you want a spread that is in between the two. And pray that they will be willing to do it! The only person I know who has the collar got it in NYC from the bespoke manager who originally designed it. That man no longer works for T&A.
On another note, in the Brosnan photo (included again below), where would you say the collar band is? Ie is it visible just below the tie knot? A bit hard to see due to the resolution.
On another note, in the Brosnan photo (included again below), where would you say the collar band is? Ie is it visible just below the tie knot? A bit hard to see due to the resolution.
BaB
Yes, the collar band is visible to the sides of the knot.
Comments
Seems right to me. They have the actual pattern… the only possibility is that they are giving you the TND collar instead by accident (which looks more like the POW if you ask me)? That being said, 3” points and the 1 and 3/4” back height sounds about right.
The TND collar is a POW collar with slight modifications, so this does sound more like the TND collar to me. 1 3/4" is the standard back height of T&A collars, and the TWINE collar looks a wee bit higher to me.
I happen to already have a PoW pattern with them, and checking on one of my shirts, the back collar was indeed 13/4 and the points were 3..
I've been studying the auction photo of the Bilbao shirt (available here https://natedsanders.com/ItemImages/000030/48527i_lg.jpeg, remember to zoom in) and tried to scale the measurements to real life.
I measured the T&A tag on an old RTW T&A shirt I bought in early 2003 (so made in 2002 most likely) and it was about 3 cm in height.
Using that as reference I measured the tag in the photo on my screen to 2.2 CM. That means that the ratio is 3/2.2 = 1.363
Measuring the back height and collar points and scaling up by 1.363 yields the following:
Back height: 5.727 CM = approx 2 1/4 inches
Collar points: 8.863 CM = approx 3 1/2 inches
Does this seem right to you?
EDIT: Measuring the button on one of my shirts, that is exactly 1 CM in diameter. Measuring the Bilbao shirt on screen (using the link and zooming in) I also measure the button to 1 CM in diameter. That actually means the photo is to a 1:1 scale!
Assuming that photo is 1:1, the back height is actually 1 3/4 and point lengths about 3 inches! Now I'm reeaally confused!!
BaB
No, that's not quite right. Those measurements would make this a Roger Moore-sized collar, and from the film it doesn't look that large. Based on the placket being stitched 3/8" from the edge and the collar being stitched 1/4" from the edge (T&A varies their collar collar stitching on different shirts, but comparing it to the placket, this collar has 1/4" stitching), here's what I found:
Point length = 3 1/8"
Back height = 2"
Also, when you see the collar laying on the shirt in this manner, it's clearly wider than a POW collar.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense! I adjusted my measurements too based on the button diameter (see edited post above) and then landed on the exact measurements T&A gave me... hmm...
So maybe it is an adjusted Regent collar? Cause I don't think it is as wide as the normal Regent?
BaB
The designer of the collar said it's a wider POW collar rather than an adjusted Regent, though the angle of the collar leaf looks more like a Regent to me. When you give a collar extra front band height but don't lengthen the points enough, the collar will angle down more. That may be why the collar looks narrower than a Regent collar.
Thanks Matt.
Another thing I don't get is why the Bilbao shirt only has 7 buttons. Their bespoke shirts always have 8 buttons, only RTW have 7. Given that the collar is clearly bespoke, this does not add up to me.
BaB
It's bespoke so hard to put hard rules on things like # of buttons. My bespoke shirts from T&A have 6 buttons (not including the collar, which usually isn't included in the count of # of buttons). Would need to know what their standard approach was back in 1999 as well.
The bespoke shirts do not always have more buttons. 6 buttons plus collar was fairly standard for them until recently. Now they have 7 buttons plus collar on RTW. It depends on height in bespoke. Brosnan's not so tall that he needs another button. They added another button to my bespoke shirts, but I don't use it because it's too low and makes sitting feel constricting. It's only really necessary if you're wearing low-rise trousers, which Brosnan never wore.
My bespoke shirts since 2009 have 8 buttons. I’m 6 ft. I think Brosnan is 6.2 or something?
BaB
RTW shirts until 2018 only had 6 buttons.
Brosnan is 6'1". It wasn't unusual back then for their bespoke shirts to have only 6 buttons rather than 7. It might also depend on who is fitting you.
Strange. I have a RTW shirt I bought in London in January 2003 with turnback cuffs (which is why I bought it) and it has 7 buttons. The same with another shirt with turnback cuffs (which even had the regent collar)bought in the NYC a few years later.
Interesting. But as I think that you also note on your blog entry about this shirt, it has a certain RTW look to it? Even using placket button (which they do on Sea Island cloths) and that it is referred to as Turnbuline?
BaB
I've tried to position it in the same way as the auction photo of the Bilbao shirt.
Note the spread, the length of points and the height..
As for your pic - that's interesting! That looks like the collar from Thomas Crown Affair. Also the one worn by Pierce at the DAD press announcement.
Yes, that indeed looks like the PoW collar. And I think there is general agreement that the PoW collar was used for TND?
I set out below perhaps the best view of the collar worn in the Bilbao scene (from Matt's blog), and that is definitely wider/different.
And here's the PoW collar as displayed in the Bury st store.
The TND collar is a POW variant. The points are longer.
Bond_and_beyond, is your POW collar standard or higher than standard?
Yes, it is raised in the back in particular.
Just measured and the back height is 1 3/4 and points 3 1/8.
On the back height I measured until the seam, ie I did not include the "fold" which stands 1/8 or so above. Is that how this is usually measured?
BaB
No, you need to unfold the collar and measure the height of just the leaf, not the band. It can't be measured when folded.
Aha! Then it's 2 1/4.
Including a photo of the collar in action below:
BaB
Looks brilliant! I do like a high collar like that!
Thanks! And here's my version of the regent collar (which I mostly wear).
Now what to do to get T&A to properly make the TWINE collar? 8-)
BaB
You'll have to tell them you want a spread that is in between the two. And pray that they will be willing to do it! The only person I know who has the collar got it in NYC from the bespoke manager who originally designed it. That man no longer works for T&A.
On another note, in the Brosnan photo (included again below), where would you say the collar band is? Ie is it visible just below the tie knot? A bit hard to see due to the resolution.
BaB
Yes, the collar band is visible to the sides of the knot.
And also below? Ie I guess what I'm asking is whether the collar band is wider vertically than the tie knot.
BaB
No, it's not visible below. Here's where it is:
I think it's 1/8" higher in front than the standard T&A collar band. So that would make the front height 1 1/4" high.