It's a lovely and very famous photo, but no-one in this thread thinks they didn't use a full-size car for most of the shots: we're talking about the model shots. Check out the second post in this thread.
The post of mine you were responding to said 'tiny bubbling Lotus'; not 'tiny bubbles'. The model was tiny. The bubbles were in fact huge, as Asp said. You've misunderstood.
The size of the bubbles was something I haven't noticed. I'm not sure how many scale models of the car were used, as well as the small model wouldn't there have also been one that was about half the size of the full sized Lotus?
I think I’ve seen a quarter size one mentioned, you can certainly see a bigger model in the pictures when they’re shooting the car diving into the water; looks maybe about a metre long? And there’s a similar sized one of the submarine version of the car in that promo photo of Meddings sitting surrounded by his models from various films.
I will have to find these photos. I remember seeing a photo of Derek Meddings with the models, but I don't remember seeing the Lotus.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
Amazingly, that was the largest model they made. They used full sized Lotus shells for all of the rest.
That's an interesting one- I didn't realise the shell they fired into the sea had a white underside like the sub version.
EDIT: Oh actually it doesn't, which is a shame as it's a bit of continuity error between the two versions. I wonder what that version is? I'd say it was the show the conversion but I'd have thought they did that in the Bahamas. Maybe that is the Bahamas but it looks more like the chase location.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
That was it. They only made one size model. And they only had three of those, I can’t remember how many were working, I think two, but I may be wrong. The rest were full size. That’s straight from Derek Meddings mouth.
That was it. They only made one size model. And they only had three of those, I can’t remember how many were working, I think two, but I may be wrong. The rest were full size. That’s straight from Derek Meddings mouth.
I don't think the photos on this page support that though: I'd say the one at the top of the page is smaller than the other two.
This:
looks to be a smaller scale than this to me.
It's not further away either: they're shooting pretty much perfectly at 90 degrees to the camera.
The fullsize one in that shot you posted is not the one from the diving shot in the film though- that one's bodywork doesn't go under the car like that one:
I wonder what happened there.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
He made two submarine models and one standard Lotus model for the drop shot into the ocean from the underwater perspective, all the same scale. All the pictures above of the miniature Lotus Sub are all the same model. They never used the second one. That was the one that remained for years at Pinewood and is now back with EON. As I said, I can’t remember whether that one was working or not. The screen used one isn’t as the motor and inner workings are mullered.
This pic is of the recovered ‘changing’ full-size model which had the wheels that recessed into the body for the transformation shots.
He made two submarine models and one standard Lotus model for the drop shot into the ocean from the underwater perspective, all the same scale. All the pictures above of the miniature Lotus Sub are all the same model. They never used the second one. That was the one that remained for years at Pinewood and is now back with EON. As I said, I can’t remember whether that one was working or not. The screen used one isn’t as the motor and inner workings are mullered.
I'm not sure that can be right: you can see a hand holding the rig which moves the miniature sub version along and I'd guess that's about 400mm long max; if the one in the promo photo with Meddings was built for the film at the same time it looks to be more like a metre long, wouldn't you say?
That hand could pretty much reach down and grab the car with thumb and fingers on either side of it; you couldn't do that with the big one he's sitting next to. Maybe he just misremembered how many models there were.
This is fun; here's a shot of them preparing the air ram to fire the bodyshell in the water. Weird how this car has the more normal underside- maybe they tried it with a white underside and it looked weird? Or maybe it didn't work and they had to use a spare car.
Or is it that that sheet of ply just looks white from the sun bleaching the photo in the first one? It's probably just that.
This pic is of the recovered ‘changing’ full-size model which had the wheels that recessed into the body for the transformation shots.
Maybe, it's hard to say. I would have imagined they did the transformation in the Bahamas rather than Sardinia (which that looks like): I doubt they did any diving in Sardinia and there would be no reason to do it in the correct location, but the closer view on that car does seem to show a weird axle on the front which looks like it could work for the transformation.
It would explain why, in the transformation, the shot of the rear wheelarch looks more like a model than the front, as this fullsize one looks like it's only able to flip its wheels at the front.
Maybe they repurposed the transforming car to be the one they used for the dive on location.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
He made two submarine models and one standard Lotus model for the drop shot into the ocean from the underwater perspective, all the same scale. All the pictures above of the miniature Lotus Sub are all the same model. They never used the second one. That was the one that remained for years at Pinewood and is now back with EON. As I said, I can’t remember whether that one was working or not. The screen used one isn’t as the motor and inner workings are mullered.
I'm not sure that can be right: you can see a hand holding the rig which moves the miniature sub version along and I'd guess that's about 400mm long max; if the one in the promo photo with Meddings was built for the film at the same time it looks to be more like a metre long, wouldn't you say?
That hand could pretty much reach down and grab the car with thumb and fingers on either side of it; you couldn't do that with the big one he's sitting next to. Maybe he just misremembered how many models there were.
It probably just an optical illusion. No one has ever mentioned any other scale models ever being made and Meddings himself confirmed they didn’t. As all of the existing models are still around from filming including the original moulds, then the evidence is pretty strong in Meddings being correct.
It’s true people forget about the details of the stuff they worked on, but he certainly had all of his faculties and was still quite young at the time. So until any evidence pops up that they made more models in different scales, then I’m inclined to believe him.
It’s interesting that they used the same mould for both the road model and the Sub version. I’d love to see a raw cast off that, but EON won’t do it.
He made two submarine models and one standard Lotus model for the drop shot into the ocean from the underwater perspective, all the same scale. All the pictures above of the miniature Lotus Sub are all the same model. They never used the second one. That was the one that remained for years at Pinewood and is now back with EON. As I said, I can’t remember whether that one was working or not. The screen used one isn’t as the motor and inner workings are mullered.
I'm not sure that can be right: you can see a hand holding the rig which moves the miniature sub version along and I'd guess that's about 400mm long max; if the one in the promo photo with Meddings was built for the film at the same time it looks to be more like a metre long, wouldn't you say?
That hand could pretty much reach down and grab the car with thumb and fingers on either side of it; you couldn't do that with the big one he's sitting next to. Maybe he just misremembered how many models there were.
It probably just an optical illusion. No one has ever mentioned any other scale models ever being made and Meddings himself confirmed they didn’t. As all of the existing models are still around from filming including the original moulds, then the evidence is pretty strong in Meddings being correct.
That's very cool: I've never seen the road version model of the car before, that looks beautiful.
I'm really not sure it's an optical illusion though: look at that hand above it- if anything the puppetry rig is longer than the car. Plus it should be dragging the car in the water so, if anything, is actually further away from the camera than the sub. You can even compare the size of the bubbles coming out of it to those the cameraman is producing. It's a smaller model.
Just because the other models from the filming are still around it doesn't necessarily follow that this one is!
You can see what I mean though? It looks a lot smaller.
It’s interesting that they used the same mould for both the road model and the Sub version. I’d love to see a raw cast off that, but EON won’t do it.
I do remember years back seeing someone selling a set of moulds for an S1 Esprit bodyshell (fullsize, mind you) at a car show. I guess there could have been any number of reasons, for race versions perhaps, but I've always wondered if maybe they were from the film.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
edited December 2020
I’ve just been getting more info off someone who obsesses about this prop and has far too many S1s. I was wrong, they only made one working sub model the other one had fixed planes so could only go in straight lines-ish.
Yeah, I can see what you mean about them looking different scale. But I can also attest to underwater photography distorting everything and distance and angle being hard to gauge.
This article references a 1979 article written by Derek Meddings about Spy where he apparently mentioned the Lotus miniatures 'which ranged in size from six inches to four feet'.
He also states that he had six Lotus bodyshells in that interview, and then in 1995 he says he had seven, so maybe he wasn't always precise!
The piece seems to be called 'Creating Mechanical Models and Miniatures for "The Spy Who Loved Me"' from a 1979 issue of American Cinematographer. If anyone can find it it would be interesting to read!
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,541MI6 Agent
He said there were seven at the question session too. That was in 94. Same time he said he only used three models.
He said there were seven at the question session too. That was in 94. Same time he said he only used three models.
Well there you go; his memory for numbers seems a little off by then!
I guess you can only see three models in the finished film though, I think: the road car post-dive, the sub car disappearing behind a rock, and then the smaller ('six inch'?) model getting closer to the leg of Atlantis. I'm not sure which it is you see moving away from the window, that's a closer shot so I would guess it's the same model as used for the rock shot.
Here's the bit of that article by Meddings where he describes how they shot the various scenes: he mentions the different scales of Lotus models used for the Atlantis shots here:
Thanks for the images and all the information. The photos of Derek with the models are the ones I mentioned, I couldn't remember they included the Lotus. The article looks very interesting
He made two submarine models and one standard Lotus model for the drop shot into the ocean from the underwater perspective, all the same scale. All the pictures above of the miniature Lotus Sub are all the same model. They never used the second one. That was the one that remained for years at Pinewood and is now back with EON. As I said, I can’t remember whether that one was working or not. The screen used one isn’t as the motor and inner workings are mullered.
I'm not sure that can be right: you can see a hand holding the rig which moves the miniature sub version along and I'd guess that's about 400mm long max; if the one in the promo photo with Meddings was built for the film at the same time it looks to be more like a metre long, wouldn't you say?
That hand could pretty much reach down and grab the car with thumb and fingers on either side of it; you couldn't do that with the big one he's sitting next to. Maybe he just misremembered how many models there were.
It probably just an optical illusion. No one has ever mentioned any other scale models ever being made and Meddings himself confirmed they didn’t. As all of the existing models are still around from filming including the original moulds, then the evidence is pretty strong in Meddings being correct.
It’s true people forget about the details of the stuff they worked on, but he certainly had all of his faculties and was still quite young at the time. So until any evidence pops up that they made more models in different scales, then I’m inclined to believe him.
Do you think the article and the photo together suggest that there were different scales? When I look at that photo there’s no way it’s four foot long, or that the water distortion is happening only where the car model is and not distorting the Atlantis leg behind it: Meddings himself saying they used different sizes seems proof enough, do you not think?
Comments
I will have to find these photos. I remember seeing a photo of Derek Meddings with the models, but I don't remember seeing the Lotus.
Amazingly, that was the largest model they made. They used full sized Lotus shells for all of the rest.
Here's them shooting one of these bigger ones which I guess is the same size:
I guess the smaller ones are probably 1/8th scale, where those are quarter scale.
Did they have any of these models at Bond in Motion? I feel like I might have seen one there.
That's an interesting one- I didn't realise the shell they fired into the sea had a white underside like the sub version.
EDIT: Oh actually it doesn't, which is a shame as it's a bit of continuity error between the two versions. I wonder what that version is? I'd say it was the show the conversion but I'd have thought they did that in the Bahamas. Maybe that is the Bahamas but it looks more like the chase location.
I don't think the photos on this page support that though: I'd say the one at the top of the page is smaller than the other two.
This:
looks to be a smaller scale than this to me.
It's not further away either: they're shooting pretty much perfectly at 90 degrees to the camera.
The fullsize one in that shot you posted is not the one from the diving shot in the film though- that one's bodywork doesn't go under the car like that one:
I wonder what happened there.
This pic is of the recovered ‘changing’ full-size model which had the wheels that recessed into the body for the transformation shots.
I'm not sure that can be right: you can see a hand holding the rig which moves the miniature sub version along and I'd guess that's about 400mm long max; if the one in the promo photo with Meddings was built for the film at the same time it looks to be more like a metre long, wouldn't you say?
That hand could pretty much reach down and grab the car with thumb and fingers on either side of it; you couldn't do that with the big one he's sitting next to. Maybe he just misremembered how many models there were.
Or is it that that sheet of ply just looks white from the sun bleaching the photo in the first one? It's probably just that.
Maybe, it's hard to say. I would have imagined they did the transformation in the Bahamas rather than Sardinia (which that looks like): I doubt they did any diving in Sardinia and there would be no reason to do it in the correct location, but the closer view on that car does seem to show a weird axle on the front which looks like it could work for the transformation.
It would explain why, in the transformation, the shot of the rear wheelarch looks more like a model than the front, as this fullsize one looks like it's only able to flip its wheels at the front.
Maybe they repurposed the transforming car to be the one they used for the dive on location.
It probably just an optical illusion. No one has ever mentioned any other scale models ever being made and Meddings himself confirmed they didn’t. As all of the existing models are still around from filming including the original moulds, then the evidence is pretty strong in Meddings being correct.
It’s true people forget about the details of the stuff they worked on, but he certainly had all of his faculties and was still quite young at the time. So until any evidence pops up that they made more models in different scales, then I’m inclined to believe him.
It’s interesting that they used the same mould for both the road model and the Sub version. I’d love to see a raw cast off that, but EON won’t do it.
That's very cool: I've never seen the road version model of the car before, that looks beautiful.
I'm really not sure it's an optical illusion though: look at that hand above it- if anything the puppetry rig is longer than the car. Plus it should be dragging the car in the water so, if anything, is actually further away from the camera than the sub. You can even compare the size of the bubbles coming out of it to those the cameraman is producing. It's a smaller model.
Just because the other models from the filming are still around it doesn't necessarily follow that this one is!
You can see what I mean though? It looks a lot smaller.
I do remember years back seeing someone selling a set of moulds for an S1 Esprit bodyshell (fullsize, mind you) at a car show. I guess there could have been any number of reasons, for race versions perhaps, but I've always wondered if maybe they were from the film.
Yeah, I can see what you mean about them looking different scale. But I can also attest to underwater photography distorting everything and distance and angle being hard to gauge.
https://boldentrance.com/the-lotus-esprit-submarine-car-the-definitive-behind-the-scenes-look-at-007s-ultimate-gadget-in-the-spy-who-loved-me/
He also states that he had six Lotus bodyshells in that interview, and then in 1995 he says he had seven, so maybe he wasn't always precise!
The piece seems to be called 'Creating Mechanical Models and Miniatures for "The Spy Who Loved Me"' from a 1979 issue of American Cinematographer. If anyone can find it it would be interesting to read!
Well there you go; his memory for numbers seems a little off by then!
I guess you can only see three models in the finished film though, I think: the road car post-dive, the sub car disappearing behind a rock, and then the smaller ('six inch'?) model getting closer to the leg of Atlantis. I'm not sure which it is you see moving away from the window, that's a closer shot so I would guess it's the same model as used for the rock shot.
https://theasc.com/archives/1979/archive-issue-february-1979.html
Thanks, I look forward to reading it
Do you think the article and the photo together suggest that there were different scales? When I look at that photo there’s no way it’s four foot long, or that the water distortion is happening only where the car model is and not distorting the Atlantis leg behind it: Meddings himself saying they used different sizes seems proof enough, do you not think?