The Literary Bond's Beretta And The Effectiveness Of The .25 round.
Marker
Posts: 154MI6 Agent
Firstly, I hope I'm posting in the right place!
Here's a well made video on the subject of Bond's (favourite?) sidearm which I'm sure many of you may have already seen but, for those who haven't.
As we know, there's been lots of discussion about the effectiveness of the little .25 round. In the following video, it's put to the test in an unusual way. Make your own mind up if you'd be confident of being on the wrong end of a .25 bullet.
Author of 'An Ungentlemanly Act' and 'Execution of Duty'. The WW2 espionage series starring Harry Flynn.
Comments
It’s a landmark video made by a long standing and respected member here. Giving the original 418 some love.
I wondered if the person responsible might be a member of the forum.
Further to the effectiveness of the .25, back in the day for lot's of gangsters (I'm speaking about actual gangsters, not the faux 'rap' variety) the little .25 pocket pistol was the weapon of choice. Easy to conceal and effective within the ranges they may have to use them. They would even carry .22 pistols.
Author of 'An Ungentlemanly Act' and 'Execution of Duty'. The WW2 espionage series starring Harry Flynn.
In the right hands a .22 can be very effective. Mossad proved that to be true. Fleming himself carried a .25 Browning during the war. Although I’m pretty sure he wasn’t as lethal with it as Mossad was 30 years later with their Beretta 71’s. Even today those smaller calibre sidearms are carried more frequently by deep cover agents than their larger 9mm counterparts. The Walther TPH in .22 has an extensive history with real spies moreso than the PPK or larger calibre semi autos.
Here's another interesting video which compares to .25 and .22 rounds as fired from the type of pocket pistol Fleming's Bond was familiar with. I think it's safe to say that Bond would have been equipped with the best ammunition available at that time. Given the circumstances and close quarters action that he could expected to be engaged in, the criticism of Bond's little Beretta may be exaggerated?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ4KlRVa0h8
Author of 'An Ungentlemanly Act' and 'Execution of Duty'. The WW2 espionage series starring Harry Flynn.
On the criticism, I'd hazard not. While the round can be effective, and while I do occasionally carry my 418 (with the grip panels on) the .25 ACP is the most diminutive of the centerfire cartridges. That does give it a significant improvement over the rimfired .22LR cartridge, which is more prone to malfunctions, but does not in any way negate the relatively light power of the round.
Now Boothroyd's criticisms are a different animal, recall he was not interested in the PPK for Bond at all, he was instead an avid reader of American firearm magazines and shootists. These authors were strong proponents of the revolver, and the .38 Special cartridge as well. It is this significantly larger round that Boothroyd was promoting, not the slightly larger, 7.65mm (.32ACP).
To Boothroyd's credit on the criticisms, Beretta's own marketing materials for the 418 highlighted a female hand with painted nails holding the sidearm, which may have very well contributed to the claims of it being suited for a woman.
All this to say, it is a rather semantic debate, and I find more pleasure in understanding the "why" behind the claims rather than the aggressive study of ballistics charts, at least in this instance!
I was about to post the same video. Just one point, was the Beretta SC showed to the camera the literary Bond's gun? It looked like the wartime Italian army issue sidearm to me (the name of that gun escapes me but I think it was chambered in 7.62 and 9mm).
Author of 'An Ungentlemanly Act' and 'Execution of Duty'. The WW2 espionage series starring Harry Flynn.
I think the AJB member responsible for that video and modified Beretta 418 is “7289.” I was also able to modify a 418 and craft a faux suppressor following his example.
In 2007 there was a school shooting in Finland. The perp. used a .22 = 9 dead 12 wounded. Conclusion at the time was, that if the basta*d had used a 9mill there would have been less killed, since he had very little skill with a pistol. Unfortunately local law had denied his application for a permit for 9mm and he'd gotten a .22.
-Mr Arlington Beech
Handgun in that video is not the correct Beretta. Connery holds the incorrect Model M1934/5 in the beginning of the video, and then a Model 70/71, which while not Bond's Beretta .25, it is a well known weapon of clandestine services as well.
Fleming was famously fairly hopeless with technical stuff; cars, weaponry - he even got his foods mixed up at times - Geoffrey Boothroyd got him to plump for the PPk - Well, I fired one, once, a WWII Nazi-stamped one. It was all I could do not to blow it my giving it the 'Jimmy Bond' on the range. And it was bang-clickety-clickety. It was about as unreliable as it is possible to get. The round wouldn't do you much good, but having shot .22 - and seen it defeat kevlar, I would have said the Beretta was the better choice. Anyway, from my perspective, sidearms were a pain in the a**e; what you fire, you clean before the Armourer accepts it back and only SNCOs and above were issued pistols anyway. Me? I'd avoid firing (GPMG mainly) and get to the bar first... 😎
I know next to nothing about firearms, it's only through 'research' on the subject of the .25 across YouTube which led me to believe that for the situations that the literary Bond found himself in where he was expected to use his gun, the .25 was up to the task.
Concealability over firepower?
Author of 'An Ungentlemanly Act' and 'Execution of Duty'. The WW2 espionage series starring Harry Flynn.
This whole subject is very amusing to me.
When you are a spy in a Venice Hotelroom with Rosa Klebb, you will be normally glad for your pocket Pistol, which you probably smuggled through customs in a book. (I guess it was the skeleton grip that got stuck in Bonds Pants).
The Beretta is a romantic agents choice, was never the choice of the American shooting range experts.
Nowadays they want a Glock, which is forgiving to your hand when you fire 10 Clips in row. Youtube is full of these Shooting Range Hobbyists, who show their PPK/S, call it "The Bond Gun" and then dismiss it because you know why- it is no Glock.
Major Boothroyd was funny enough this type of gun aficionado. Sure he wanted Bond to have a Revolver- because that was what the American shooting range pros back then considered the best. Of course the west was won with a revolver- but I could not figure a spy using one, sorry Major Boothroyd. His argument against Fleming: Man Stopping Power. That reminds me of the argument those Shooting Range Hobbyists have today:What if there is a Zombie Apocalypse? Then we need huge guns, who can shoot lots of rounds. Well, of course.
In Defense of Flemings Choice: If you are in a room with a spy, you are glad to have a pocket pistol hidden with you.
It was his suppressor that got caught up in his trousers. That can happen with any sidearm.
This clip thing drives us mad. It’s a magazine. Media and novels always get this wrong. TV shows especially.
Uh, okay, Asp! Thanks .English is not my Mother Tongue. We call it Magazin in Austria.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the little pocket pistols in both .25 and .22 calibre were the concealed carry of choice for gangsters. We can assume that they knew what they were speaking about in terms of the effectiveness of these weapons in the scenarios in which they would be employed. Bond's employment of his Beretta wasn't all that far removed from the real life incidents where gangsters would use them.
A question. Can we assume that Bond would be issued with the best ammunition available at the time?
Also, is possible for ammo to be modified with a little extra propellent? Not enough to make firing it dangerous, but to provide some extra 'oomph' in terms of energy at pistol ranges? I did read once that Mossad assassins would take some of the powder from their .22 pistol ammo so they would make less noise when fired in situations when they wanted to attract as least attention as possible. I'm not sure about the validity of that claim but guess I'll get an answer here.
Author of 'An Ungentlemanly Act' and 'Execution of Duty'. The WW2 espionage series starring Harry Flynn.