One health worker died after getting an AZ vaccination. One doesn't know if the vaccine is to blame, but the woman seemed healthy before the vaccination.
I just read there are thirty known cases of serious possible side-effects after five million AZ vaccinations in Europe.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,762Chief of Staff
There have been over 17 million AZ/Oxford and only 37 reported ‘incidents’ - that’s 15 DVT and 22 of pulmonary embolism - so far…which is below what would/could be said to happen normally.
It’s terrible that Germany have had 10 cases of blood clots...BUT I’m extremely sceptical that they can be directly connected to AZ vaccinations - which medical body proved it?
YNWA 97
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
There isn't a vaccine or medicine available that will 100% effect free for everyone. There will always be someone out there who will have an adverse reaction.
Every day stuff like paracetamol, penicillin and aspirin can all have adverse reactions in some people. My hubby can't take aspirin. He has a severe allergic reaction to it.The problem is, the only way you find out is if you take it.
You have to think of the sheer number and volume of people who have had the AZ vaccine without any side effects. There are literally millions.
WHO and EMA are both saying the AZ should be given as there will be more deaths from coronavirus than the vaccine (not that there's any actual evidence to suggest the vaccine is responsible).
You're more likely to get a blood clot from the virus than you are from from the vaccine and seeing as Europe is heading for a third wave and more lockdowns maybe they should give people the option as to whether they will have it or not.
I agree with you, Lady Rose. But I think it's right to pause the AZ vaccines to check if the vaccine is the cause. This is especially important because vaccines, and corona vaccines in particular, are being questioned by worrying ly many. There are fortunately a number of other vaccines that can be used in the meantime.
Karl Lauterbach came out with that yesterday and I trust him.
However he said, that he recommends to continue using AZ because the positives are outweighting those sideeffects by several miles.
Those blood clots are so far unknown sideeffects - they have not been mentioned in the studies so I understand some decisionmakers wanting to stop temporarily until this is property investigated.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The interesting thing about this is that the Pfizer vaccine has had similar numbers in terms of blood clots as the AZ one.
Pfizer have reported 25 cases of blood clotting in 11 million administered doses and AZ reported 28 cases in 10 million doses.
So why have the EU suspended AZ and not Pfizer? It's things like that that make me think these decisions can't be anything but political point scoring.
NB ... numbers may vary slightly depending on the report you read but that's the percentages we are talking about here.
According to the Norwegian Medicines Agency, as of 14 January there had been 23 deaths “associated with” getting a Pfizer Covid-19 vaccination, of which 13 had been assessed so far.
Denmark has temporarily suspended use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca covid-19 vaccine as a precautionary move after reports of blood clots and one death.
These were the first two results I got from asking the same question for each vaccine. 🤔
This is true, but this happened in January and the people who died were very old and fragile people (85+). Many vaccines for a number of illnesses have mild symptom in the days after the vaccinations. These people were to fragile to survive even these mild symptoms. It was decided not to vaccinate the weakest groups because of this. I suspect this would have happened with any of the corona vaccines.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,762Chief of Staff
"There are also cases of blood clots without vaccinations"
While that is true - those 7-10 cases have a very rare variant of brain clots - and that's significant!
"There have also been XX cases of blood clots with Biontec/Pfizer"
While that's also true - those where not the rare and more severe variation of brain blood clots like with AZ.
And in Germany - contrary to the UK - AZ is only used on younger people - so those cases on younger people are more alarming and they don't have such a high mortality rate with Covid - so temporarily suspending AZ bears not such a high risk in comparison.
Like I have said - if I have the chance to receive an AZ shot by tomorrow - I'd get it and I am sure that the EU will work on the disclaimers and return to AZ in the coming days.
But the recent events are a tough call - I applaud the total transparency and would not want to be in the position to decide wheter stopping AZ or go ahead with it with the recent discovered incidents.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What happened is sad, but people older than 85 living in institution for theelderly were among the first corona vaccinations in Norway because they were the most at-risk group. It's tragic that lives were lost, but realistically many were close to deat anyway at the time. But like you I would have been crushed if one of the was a close relation. My grandparents were very close to me (I live in their house now and the place is full of memories) because every extra day is precious.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,762Chief of Staff
It’s strange because blood clots with vaccinations are less than blood clots without in the general population...and it’s been proven - by Prof Andrew Pollard - that the AZ vaccine causes far less side-effects the older you are, the over-70’s having practically none 🤔
please allow the Europeans to make their own decisions - in particular as the UK are desperate to vacccinate „regardless“ because of their catastrophic handling of the crisis so far
So everything that comes from there is taken with a grain of salt - and rightly so!
as you may well know , AZ is not used here with the older population and as I said
the recent incidents affect young people which is quite unusual
the recent incidents are not „ normal“ clotting or trombose - they are the rare brain clottings
7 -10 cases in a couple of weeks is significantly more than the usual 50 cases/year
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Having said this, I am pretty sure that information and disclaimers will be reworked and probably potential risk groups for trombosis/strokes are getting excluded and AZ vaccinations will catch up after a short delay.
imo it gives a good signal that every incident it being properly addressed - so that everybody can be sure that everything is being done to ensure safe vaccinations.
perhaps we should fill the gap by using EU produced Biontec vaccination which is meant to go to the UK? 🤨
Quote: I think it's a case of everyman for himself.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Here there are local elections in May so the Govt is doing everything it can to a) Rush through the vaccinations so they benefit at the polls from a 'bounce' and b) Delay any inquiry into its catastrophic handling of the pandemic and alright c) To vaccinate the population so it doesn't get Covid and if so doesn't spread it - fair enough.
My understanding from the latest I've heard is that the German govt is delaying because it worries that if it does turn out someone can say they got a blood clot from this, the Govt can be sued.
In the UK you are asked to give your consent to have the vaccination, which will then mitigate any consequences...does this not happen in other countries?
Higgins said - “perhaps we should fill the gap by using EU produced Biontec vaccination which is meant to go to the UK? 🤨”
That would certainly be an option, but that can cause side effects too 🤷🏻♂️
Also, why is Ursula von der Leyen complaining about the UK withholding the coronavirus vaccine when most of the EU are refusing to use it? What am I missing? 🤔
A member of parlament and former party leader who's been self-isolating for a year because of a pre-existing condition has cross-stitched the text "Bloody f*cking virus from hell!" on a wall in her home. 😂
Also, why is Ursula von der Leyen complaining about the UK withholding the coronavirus vaccine when most of the EU are refusing to use it? What am I missing? 🤔
Easy: If we‘d keep all EU made vaccines for ourselfs - just like other countries so selflessly do, we would not be in that situation. EU is supplying the world with vaccine and we are basically the only ones in the West and constantly gets criticized and looked down by their neighbours for their „disasterous handling“ of the vaccination.
The demonizing from the UK still goes on and is just a tool to deflect from the horrible handling of the crisis so far.
And as I‘ve said, the EU will continue soon with AZ, so your question is just a rhetoric one without much substance - but you are a smart cookie and knew the answer already 😉
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Basically they constantly run „expected-observed“ assessments.
For AZ, a number of 1 was expected and the observation was 7 only in Germany.
That is enough to raise a flag to them. So much for the „natural trombose danger“ argument or the nonsense that this is all politically morivated.
What I learn from this is that this is far more complex than our shallow (and I include myself by shallow) discussion points. Medical scientists are that for a reason - they are usually much smarter than we are and they consider much more than what we do by looking at a number or event and cry out „foul“ or „ this is ridiculous“.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Basically the PEI runs „observed-versus-expected analysis“ and in the case of AZ the expected number was 1 incident and the observed number was 7 or more.
That was enough to pull a sign and AZ has been temporarily suspended.
So much for all the „natural trombosis“ arguments or the „this is all political“ nonsense
What do I learn from this:
Medical scientists are obviously smarter than most of us and observe many more numbers and details than when we do. We should be careful crying out „foul“ or „ this is totally insane“ too quick because we all are only scratching the surface ( and I include myself).
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,762Chief of Staff
Actually I genuinely wasn’t sure why Ursula was creating such a fuss about a drug that most of the EU had temporarily suspended 🤷🏻♂️
Aren’t the EU just making the Pfizer variant? And didn’t the EU move too slow in placing orders for the vaccine?
Yes, that question is just rhetorical 🤣 but it does have substance 😏
Question to Higgins...who, exactly, are the UK demonising?
I wholeheartedly agree that the UK Government have been an absolute shambles from the start...and I hope we haven’t heard the last of the PPE scandal either...but...you have to give credit to them for the handling of the vaccine rollout...👏🏻
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,762Chief of Staff
The EMA has announced that the AZ vaccine is not associated with a higher risk of blood clots...although they will continue to study going forward...
Comments
The first sentence i the post above should continue".... May have caused serious side-effects".
One health worker died after getting an AZ vaccination. One doesn't know if the vaccine is to blame, but the woman seemed healthy before the vaccination.
I just read there are thirty known cases of serious possible side-effects after five million AZ vaccinations in Europe.
There have been over 17 million AZ/Oxford and only 37 reported ‘incidents’ - that’s 15 DVT and 22 of pulmonary embolism - so far…which is below what would/could be said to happen normally.
Your numbers are probably the correct ones.
It’s terrible that Germany have had 10 cases of blood clots...BUT I’m extremely sceptical that they can be directly connected to AZ vaccinations - which medical body proved it?
The Higgins Medical Academy of Moronic Doings.
There isn't a vaccine or medicine available that will 100% effect free for everyone. There will always be someone out there who will have an adverse reaction.
Every day stuff like paracetamol, penicillin and aspirin can all have adverse reactions in some people. My hubby can't take aspirin. He has a severe allergic reaction to it.The problem is, the only way you find out is if you take it.
You have to think of the sheer number and volume of people who have had the AZ vaccine without any side effects. There are literally millions.
WHO and EMA are both saying the AZ should be given as there will be more deaths from coronavirus than the vaccine (not that there's any actual evidence to suggest the vaccine is responsible).
You're more likely to get a blood clot from the virus than you are from from the vaccine and seeing as Europe is heading for a third wave and more lockdowns maybe they should give people the option as to whether they will have it or not.
I agree with you, Lady Rose. But I think it's right to pause the AZ vaccines to check if the vaccine is the cause. This is especially important because vaccines, and corona vaccines in particular, are being questioned by worrying ly many. There are fortunately a number of other vaccines that can be used in the meantime.
Karl Lauterbach came out with that yesterday and I trust him.
However he said, that he recommends to continue using AZ because the positives are outweighting those sideeffects by several miles.
Those blood clots are so far unknown sideeffects - they have not been mentioned in the studies so I understand some decisionmakers wanting to stop temporarily until this is property investigated.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The interesting thing about this is that the Pfizer vaccine has had similar numbers in terms of blood clots as the AZ one.
Pfizer have reported 25 cases of blood clotting in 11 million administered doses and AZ reported 28 cases in 10 million doses.
So why have the EU suspended AZ and not Pfizer? It's things like that that make me think these decisions can't be anything but political point scoring.
NB ... numbers may vary slightly depending on the report you read but that's the percentages we are talking about here.
Has there been any deaths linked to the Pfizer vaccines?
According to the Norwegian Medicines Agency, as of 14 January there had been 23 deaths “associated with” getting a Pfizer Covid-19 vaccination, of which 13 had been assessed so far.
Denmark has temporarily suspended use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca covid-19 vaccine as a precautionary move after reports of blood clots and one death.
These were the first two results I got from asking the same question for each vaccine. 🤔
This is true, but this happened in January and the people who died were very old and fragile people (85+). Many vaccines for a number of illnesses have mild symptom in the days after the vaccinations. These people were to fragile to survive even these mild symptoms. It was decided not to vaccinate the weakest groups because of this. I suspect this would have happened with any of the corona vaccines.
I fully agree...but it makes you wonder why these people were vaccinated IF there was a good chance they’d die from it 😳
Thing is…it still happened and that vaccine wasn’t stopped and was still given to older patients...I’d be furious if that happened to my parents...
"There are also cases of blood clots without vaccinations"
"There have also been XX cases of blood clots with Biontec/Pfizer"
And in Germany - contrary to the UK - AZ is only used on younger people - so those cases on younger people are more alarming and they don't have such a high mortality rate with Covid - so temporarily suspending AZ bears not such a high risk in comparison.
Like I have said - if I have the chance to receive an AZ shot by tomorrow - I'd get it and I am sure that the EU will work on the disclaimers and return to AZ in the coming days.
But the recent events are a tough call - I applaud the total transparency and would not want to be in the position to decide wheter stopping AZ or go ahead with it with the recent discovered incidents.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Reply to Sir Miles:
What happened is sad, but people older than 85 living in institution for theelderly were among the first corona vaccinations in Norway because they were the most at-risk group. It's tragic that lives were lost, but realistically many were close to deat anyway at the time. But like you I would have been crushed if one of the was a close relation. My grandparents were very close to me (I live in their house now and the place is full of memories) because every extra day is precious.
It’s strange because blood clots with vaccinations are less than blood clots without in the general population...and it’s been proven - by Prof Andrew Pollard - that the AZ vaccine causes far less side-effects the older you are, the over-70’s having practically none 🤔
please allow the Europeans to make their own decisions - in particular as the UK are desperate to vacccinate „regardless“ because of their catastrophic handling of the crisis so far
So everything that comes from there is taken with a grain of salt - and rightly so!
as you may well know , AZ is not used here with the older population and as I said
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Having said this, I am pretty sure that information and disclaimers will be reworked and probably potential risk groups for trombosis/strokes are getting excluded and AZ vaccinations will catch up after a short delay.
imo it gives a good signal that every incident it being properly addressed - so that everybody can be sure that everything is being done to ensure safe vaccinations.
perhaps we should fill the gap by using EU produced Biontec vaccination which is meant to go to the UK? 🤨
Quote: I think it's a case of everyman for himself.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Here there are local elections in May so the Govt is doing everything it can to a) Rush through the vaccinations so they benefit at the polls from a 'bounce' and b) Delay any inquiry into its catastrophic handling of the pandemic and alright c) To vaccinate the population so it doesn't get Covid and if so doesn't spread it - fair enough.
My understanding from the latest I've heard is that the German govt is delaying because it worries that if it does turn out someone can say they got a blood clot from this, the Govt can be sued.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
It‘s not only Germany - large parts of Europe have stopped with AZ.
In the EU, the manufacturers bear the risk - by contract - but the states have a responsibility to make all vaccinations as safe as possible.
It would be terrible if citizens worry getting a jab because vaccinating fast is higher priority than getting it safe.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
In the UK you are asked to give your consent to have the vaccination, which will then mitigate any consequences...does this not happen in other countries?
Higgins said - “perhaps we should fill the gap by using EU produced Biontec vaccination which is meant to go to the UK? 🤨”
That would certainly be an option, but that can cause side effects too 🤷🏻♂️
Also, why is Ursula von der Leyen complaining about the UK withholding the coronavirus vaccine when most of the EU are refusing to use it? What am I missing? 🤔
A member of parlament and former party leader who's been self-isolating for a year because of a pre-existing condition has cross-stitched the text "Bloody f*cking virus from hell!" on a wall in her home. 😂
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The quotation function here is a disaster!
Quote Sir Miles:
Also, why is Ursula von der Leyen complaining about the UK withholding the coronavirus vaccine when most of the EU are refusing to use it? What am I missing? 🤔
Easy: If we‘d keep all EU made vaccines for ourselfs - just like other countries so selflessly do, we would not be in that situation. EU is supplying the world with vaccine and we are basically the only ones in the West and constantly gets criticized and looked down by their neighbours for their „disasterous handling“ of the vaccination.
The demonizing from the UK still goes on and is just a tool to deflect from the horrible handling of the crisis so far.
And as I‘ve said, the EU will continue soon with AZ, so your question is just a rhetoric one without much substance - but you are a smart cookie and knew the answer already 😉
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Here a quite lengthy article about why Germany temporarily stopped AZ vaccinations:
Paul Ehrlich Institute is the governmental institute responsible for everything vaccines.
Basically they constantly run „expected-observed“ assessments.
For AZ, a number of 1 was expected and the observation was 7 only in Germany.
That is enough to raise a flag to them. So much for the „natural trombose danger“ argument or the nonsense that this is all politically morivated.
What I learn from this is that this is far more complex than our shallow (and I include myself by shallow) discussion points. Medical scientists are that for a reason - they are usually much smarter than we are and they consider much more than what we do by looking at a number or event and cry out „foul“ or „ this is ridiculous“.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Here is a long and detailed article with the question why Germany temporarily stopped AZ vaccinations:
Basically the PEI runs „observed-versus-expected analysis“ and in the case of AZ the expected number was 1 incident and the observed number was 7 or more.
That was enough to pull a sign and AZ has been temporarily suspended.
So much for all the „natural trombosis“ arguments or the „this is all political“ nonsense
What do I learn from this:
Medical scientists are obviously smarter than most of us and observe many more numbers and details than when we do. We should be careful crying out „foul“ or „ this is totally insane“ too quick because we all are only scratching the surface ( and I include myself).
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Actually I genuinely wasn’t sure why Ursula was creating such a fuss about a drug that most of the EU had temporarily suspended 🤷🏻♂️
Aren’t the EU just making the Pfizer variant? And didn’t the EU move too slow in placing orders for the vaccine?
Yes, that question is just rhetorical 🤣 but it does have substance 😏
Question to Higgins...who, exactly, are the UK demonising?
I wholeheartedly agree that the UK Government have been an absolute shambles from the start...and I hope we haven’t heard the last of the PPE scandal either...but...you have to give credit to them for the handling of the vaccine rollout...👏🏻
The EMA has announced that the AZ vaccine is not associated with a higher risk of blood clots...although they will continue to study going forward...
I wonder what Karl Lauterbach makes of that? 🤔🤣
Well, I have heard the announcement live!
EMA still recommends using AZ, because the benefit is much bigger than the potential harm.
EMA also said, that a direct connection of AZ with the cases of brain trombosis is not clear but can‘t be ruled out.
And a potential harm is an increased number of those brain trombosis - from which we had now 13 cases.
EMA recommends to issuing a warning of the potential risks of those rare brain trombosis and inform all patients accordingly.
This is what I have expected - also Karl Lauterbach (who is far smarter and better informed than me) and he never said anything else.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!