I'll bet money that a 25 year old female nurse will have used a contraceptive pill or flown on a plane and not thought twice about blood clots. I'll bet further money that the chances of blood clots from either of those is higher than with having the AZ vaccine.
As I say, use the vaccine or don't. The stopping and starting of the AZ vaccine must be doing so much damage. Confidence in the AZ vaccine in Europe especially is shot by now so give it countries that will use it.
You are still not able to differentiate between a rare brain bloodclot and a „normal“ trombosis .
Our decisions are based on science and the fact that not only Germany has stopped AZ and amended the use of it (well communicated) speaks against your claim that this is all „political“.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I have to agree with Higgins. If it's political, why has Norway (not an EU member) also paused AZ vaccinations? Our authorities have been honest about how this will slow down the vaccinations, so it's not good politics to pause AZ.
Before Sir Miles shows up and picks up single words and throw them in the air, let's make terminology right:
Which vaccines are used and how, this decision is made by politicians.
They base their decisions on political factors and in the case of vaccinations - based on the advise of the best scientists in the country.
When people accuse "this is all political", it basically means that the politician in the EU and outside base their vaccination decisions on the desire to punish or harm the UK and AZ by dragging AZ thru the mud.
What I say is, that the decisions of the German politicians bases on the advise of their best scientists (and other factors - e.g. we have here an ethics commission that also advises on the topic of vaccination).
So, all decisions made by politicians are somehow based on "politics" because scientists here only give advise but don't make decisions.
So, it would be more correct to say: " The decision of the German politicians to pause or limit the vaccination of AZ is based on scientific advise "(and the fear if they ignore scientists' advise, they will be torn in pieces by the yellowpress).
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Why are you always so patronising? Can you not discuss something without being unpleasant and arrogant ? Are you an expert in blood clots now?
Yes, I can differentiate between rare brain blood clots and a normal thrombosis. I have blood clots. I have had TIA's because of blood clots. I am on blood thinners to try and prevent them. The bottom line though is that they are both deadly and people go about their daily business weighing up the odds as to whether the risk is minimal or not. The risk of a 'normal' thrombosis is much higher than a rare brain blood clot following a vaccine. Both can be deadly.
Science isn't being followed though is it? The science repeatedly says there is no relation to the AZ vaccine and these very rare blood clots. The science also says you are at far greater risk from catching Covid than you are of getting a rare blood clot.
As I've said, I don't care if the European Union or anywhere else for that matter uses the vaccine or not. They have totally undermined the AZ vaccine one way or another. One minute it was not suitable for over 60's now it's not suitable for under 50's.
Here in the UK our figures are plummeting and we're coming out of lockdown. So far, the vaccine programme is working for us and I'll take that especially after our disastrous first 12 months of living with Covid-19.
30 million have been vaccinated with at least one dose in the UK and all the second doses are starting to be administered. That's some pretty crazy numbers and statistics.
your post is too personal and I find it strange as you constantly mention "trombosis"and never address to the rare brain clotting (if the forum software would make it possible, I'd quote you for doing so in at least 5 cases).
I have never called you arrogant, patronizing or unpleasant. Disagree with me, but stop to be personally offended!
Our scientists are pretty good, some of them developed Biontec, which was very supportive for the UK vaccination programme.
Other than in the UK (and I can only speculate about the reasons) scientists in many countries now relate those brain bloodclots to AZ vaccinations and I have told you why. And it's only a matter of time that the WHO will confirm this.
Again, AZ vaccinations are much more beneficiary than the risk of brain bloodclotting - but those rare cases exist and they must be properly researched addressed and communicated. Ignoring them will not work in the end
Ignore it but don't attack me in that personal kind of way. You are again way out of line!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What I find interesting is that over 18 million AZ vaccinations the thrombosis or blood clotting figure is less than what you'd expect to see in a population of that size! An independent scientific release found no connection to the vaccine and actually found that some of the clot sufferers had pre existing conditions with their platelets and others may well have been previously exposed to SARS or covid which in itself causes clotting. That research was co funded by, Pfizer, Sanofi and GSK, which again is interesting ! Whether or not this is political ? The Italian Director General of Italy's medicine authority stated it was political, As a whole the EU seem to approve the vaccines use. And as this is a global pandemic how come the EU hasn't engaged with the US who have actively engaged in Vaccine protectionism? Food for thought.
normal trombosis or bloodclottings: Yes, there are no significant increases above the baseline
Brain bloodclottings: Yes, there is a significant increase over the expected number without vaccinations (baseline) That is why some states are hesitant and worried and take measures re. AZ vaccinations.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
You may have explained it, but the scientists don't seem to agree with you according to the preprint finding of their research 🤷
Furthermore research has shown that covid19 itself can cause rare blood clots including cerebral clotting, and as we don't know exactly who has or hasn't had the disease this can't be ruled out either, and AZ vaccine may well be preventing this condition! And even if it was the chances of it happening are nearly 600,000 to one. The chances via mathematical equation of catching covid19 in an average sized population is 1000 to one.
the observations of brain bloodclots are for 3 weeks or so now.
It‘s too early to make a final scientific statement.
For some states, that‘s enough - some states be cautious and thus temporarily paused or limited the use of AZ vaccines. Pretty sure in some weeks/months we know more and then we know, which „ The scientists“ where correct.
Are those cases if brain clotting reason for completely suspending AZ? I don‘t think so?
Is AZ much much more benficial than the risk of getting the rare brain clotting? Absolutely yes!
Should we careful and exclude potential risk groups from AZ vaccinations? Yes, as long as we have alternatives.
I personally habe no doubt, that the scientists who connect those cases of a usually extremely rare event now will be proven right. Ignoring, downplaying or silencing those voices may not be smart in the long run and I appreciate the transparency.
Accusing leaders of other motives is just wrong!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
@N24: I have heard that Norway has observed 1 brain bloodclot in 25000 AZ vaccinations.
Is that correct?
@Chriscoop: Alone in Germany, we had 9 people dead, so maybe you want to tell your Mars analogy to their relatives or how would you feel if it would have happened to someone in your family?
In General: Because of the recent observations, we are moving AZ vaccinations to male and over 60.
So, the programme still goes ahead, we are only changing the modus about who is getting which vaccine.
Recent polls (FORSA from yesterday) show, that vaccine acceptance has not declined due to the recent events in Germany.
69% want to get vaccinated, 10% are waiting .
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The UK Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has just „discovered“ further 25 cases of the rare bloodclotting ( including 22 cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST)) after having reported only 5 cases for some time.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It found 30 overall, out of 18 million vaccinations - while the MHRA, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and the World Health Organization (WHO) also said the benefits of taking the vaccine outweigh any risks.
I don‘t disagree with you at all, but in Germany alone - 9 people have died and the risk-benefit talk won‘t help them and their relatives much!
Over the last 3 weeks, I have received a significant amount of flak for making the connection between those rare bloodclot cases and AZ vaccinations. And now, the MHRA makes this connection in their very own report!
And the sudden „spike“ (additionally „found“ numbers) make me wonder, who‘d kept them under the carpet so far and if there is more!
Our (EU) leaders have openly communicated those rare cases - the AZ benefits have always been put in context with that and after the first 10 cases here, AZ has been paused for some days to investigate further.
I still find that right and now AZ vaccinations have been moved to male only and over 60 years of age.
So the Programme goes on and the accusations that a significant number of people have died because they now caught Covid does not make sense because the vaccines have only been shifted and not terminated.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
A European drug regulator chief has insisted there is a 'clear' link between AstraZeneca's Covid jab and blood clots.
Marco Cavaleri, the head of vaccines at the European Medicines Agency, told Italian newspaper Il Messaggero: 'In my opinion, we can say it now, it is clear there is a link with the vaccine. But we still do not know what causes this reaction.'
He said that 'in the next few hours, we will say that there is a connection, but we still have to understand how this happens'.
But the regulator said the benefits of the vaccine in preventing coronavirus outweigh any risks and it urged the public to continue coming forward for the jab.
I guess that Sir Miles and others owe an apology to Karl Lauterbach and me......
quote Lady Rose: >>Science isn't being followed though is it? The science repeatedly says there is no relation to the AZ vaccine and these very rare blood clots.<<
Well, I have been saying it for weeks now (since March 16) and certain people felt it necessary to attack Germany, the EU, Lauterbach and myself on and on....
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
I'll bet money that a 25 year old female nurse will have used a contraceptive pill or flown on a plane and not thought twice about blood clots. I'll bet further money that the chances of blood clots from either of those is higher than with having the AZ vaccine.
As I say, use the vaccine or don't. The stopping and starting of the AZ vaccine must be doing so much damage. Confidence in the AZ vaccine in Europe especially is shot by now so give it countries that will use it.
You are still not able to differentiate between a rare brain bloodclot and a „normal“ trombosis .
Our decisions are based on science and the fact that not only Germany has stopped AZ and amended the use of it (well communicated) speaks against your claim that this is all „political“.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I have to agree with Higgins. If it's political, why has Norway (not an EU member) also paused AZ vaccinations? Our authorities have been honest about how this will slow down the vaccinations, so it's not good politics to pause AZ.
How many cases of brain bloodclots have you had in Norway after AZ vaccinations?
Or do the Norwegian authorities base their decisions on what was reported from Germany and others?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Before Sir Miles shows up and picks up single words and throw them in the air, let's make terminology right:
Which vaccines are used and how, this decision is made by politicians.
They base their decisions on political factors and in the case of vaccinations - based on the advise of the best scientists in the country.
When people accuse "this is all political", it basically means that the politician in the EU and outside base their vaccination decisions on the desire to punish or harm the UK and AZ by dragging AZ thru the mud.
What I say is, that the decisions of the German politicians bases on the advise of their best scientists (and other factors - e.g. we have here an ethics commission that also advises on the topic of vaccination).
So, all decisions made by politicians are somehow based on "politics" because scientists here only give advise but don't make decisions.
So, it would be more correct to say: " The decision of the German politicians to pause or limit the vaccination of AZ is based on scientific advise "(and the fear if they ignore scientists' advise, they will be torn in pieces by the yellowpress).
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Why are you always so patronising? Can you not discuss something without being unpleasant and arrogant ? Are you an expert in blood clots now?
Yes, I can differentiate between rare brain blood clots and a normal thrombosis. I have blood clots. I have had TIA's because of blood clots. I am on blood thinners to try and prevent them. The bottom line though is that they are both deadly and people go about their daily business weighing up the odds as to whether the risk is minimal or not. The risk of a 'normal' thrombosis is much higher than a rare brain blood clot following a vaccine. Both can be deadly.
Science isn't being followed though is it? The science repeatedly says there is no relation to the AZ vaccine and these very rare blood clots. The science also says you are at far greater risk from catching Covid than you are of getting a rare blood clot.
As I've said, I don't care if the European Union or anywhere else for that matter uses the vaccine or not. They have totally undermined the AZ vaccine one way or another. One minute it was not suitable for over 60's now it's not suitable for under 50's.
Here in the UK our figures are plummeting and we're coming out of lockdown. So far, the vaccine programme is working for us and I'll take that especially after our disastrous first 12 months of living with Covid-19.
30 million have been vaccinated with at least one dose in the UK and all the second doses are starting to be administered. That's some pretty crazy numbers and statistics.
Completely meaningless post this, I 2as just playing around with the new features and seems you can't delete anything other than text 🤷
Lady Rose,
your post is too personal and I find it strange as you constantly mention "trombosis"and never address to the rare brain clotting (if the forum software would make it possible, I'd quote you for doing so in at least 5 cases).
I have never called you arrogant, patronizing or unpleasant. Disagree with me, but stop to be personally offended!
Our scientists are pretty good, some of them developed Biontec, which was very supportive for the UK vaccination programme.
Other than in the UK (and I can only speculate about the reasons) scientists in many countries now relate those brain bloodclots to AZ vaccinations and I have told you why. And it's only a matter of time that the WHO will confirm this.
Again, AZ vaccinations are much more beneficiary than the risk of brain bloodclotting - but those rare cases exist and they must be properly researched addressed and communicated. Ignoring them will not work in the end
Ignore it but don't attack me in that personal kind of way. You are again way out of line!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What I find interesting is that over 18 million AZ vaccinations the thrombosis or blood clotting figure is less than what you'd expect to see in a population of that size! An independent scientific release found no connection to the vaccine and actually found that some of the clot sufferers had pre existing conditions with their platelets and others may well have been previously exposed to SARS or covid which in itself causes clotting. That research was co funded by, Pfizer, Sanofi and GSK, which again is interesting ! Whether or not this is political ? The Italian Director General of Italy's medicine authority stated it was political, As a whole the EU seem to approve the vaccines use. And as this is a global pandemic how come the EU hasn't engaged with the US who have actively engaged in Vaccine protectionism? Food for thought.
That is actually not the case!
I've explained it now 5 times:
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
What do you mean in engaging with the US in Vaccine protectionism?
Do you mean, we (EU) should stop supplying others (like the UK) with our home-produced vaccines?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
You may have explained it, but the scientists don't seem to agree with you according to the preprint finding of their research 🤷
Furthermore research has shown that covid19 itself can cause rare blood clots including cerebral clotting, and as we don't know exactly who has or hasn't had the disease this can't be ruled out either, and AZ vaccine may well be preventing this condition! And even if it was the chances of it happening are nearly 600,000 to one. The chances via mathematical equation of catching covid19 in an average sized population is 1000 to one.
„The scientists“ is a broad term.
the observations of brain bloodclots are for 3 weeks or so now.
It‘s too early to make a final scientific statement.
For some states, that‘s enough - some states be cautious and thus temporarily paused or limited the use of AZ vaccines. Pretty sure in some weeks/months we know more and then we know, which „ The scientists“ where correct.
Are those cases if brain clotting reason for completely suspending AZ? I don‘t think so?
Is AZ much much more benficial than the risk of getting the rare brain clotting? Absolutely yes!
Should we careful and exclude potential risk groups from AZ vaccinations? Yes, as long as we have alternatives.
I personally habe no doubt, that the scientists who connect those cases of a usually extremely rare event now will be proven right. Ignoring, downplaying or silencing those voices may not be smart in the long run and I appreciate the transparency.
Accusing leaders of other motives is just wrong!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And....
The chances of anything coming from Mars is a million to one......he said !
Time for everyone to take a deep breath (masks on, if appropriate) and calm down.
PMs are suggested.
PS Love the "War Of The Worlds" quote, Chriscoop, we needed a laugh.
Thread re-opened.
Thanks, Barbel.
@N24: I have heard that Norway has observed 1 brain bloodclot in 25000 AZ vaccinations.
Is that correct?
@Chriscoop: Alone in Germany, we had 9 people dead, so maybe you want to tell your Mars analogy to their relatives or how would you feel if it would have happened to someone in your family?
In General: Because of the recent observations, we are moving AZ vaccinations to male and over 60.
So, the programme still goes ahead, we are only changing the modus about who is getting which vaccine.
Recent polls (FORSA from yesterday) show, that vaccine acceptance has not declined due to the recent events in Germany.
69% want to get vaccinated, 10% are waiting .
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Our President, Frank Walter Steinmeier has received his Covid Vaccine today - with AstraZeneca
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
There are four dead associated with the AZ vaccine, I think three of them were blood clots. I'm not sure how many AZ vaccinations were done.
Found it. 121 800 people had the AZ vaccine in Norway, all under 65 and many are health personel. That should be roughly about 30 000 for each death.
We did indeed, though it appears to have been lost on some 🤣🤣🤣
The UK Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has just „discovered“ further 25 cases of the rare bloodclotting ( including 22 cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST)) after having reported only 5 cases for some time.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It found 30 overall, out of 18 million vaccinations - while the MHRA, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and the World Health Organization (WHO) also said the benefits of taking the vaccine outweigh any risks.
The Netherlands has stopped AZ vaccinations for people under 60.
I don‘t disagree with you at all, but in Germany alone - 9 people have died and the risk-benefit talk won‘t help them and their relatives much!
Over the last 3 weeks, I have received a significant amount of flak for making the connection between those rare bloodclot cases and AZ vaccinations. And now, the MHRA makes this connection in their very own report!
And the sudden „spike“ (additionally „found“ numbers) make me wonder, who‘d kept them under the carpet so far and if there is more!
Our (EU) leaders have openly communicated those rare cases - the AZ benefits have always been put in context with that and after the first 10 cases here, AZ has been paused for some days to investigate further.
I still find that right and now AZ vaccinations have been moved to male only and over 60 years of age.
So the Programme goes on and the accusations that a significant number of people have died because they now caught Covid does not make sense because the vaccines have only been shifted and not terminated.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
A European drug regulator chief has insisted there is a 'clear' link between AstraZeneca's Covid jab and blood clots.
Marco Cavaleri, the head of vaccines at the European Medicines Agency, told Italian newspaper Il Messaggero: 'In my opinion, we can say it now, it is clear there is a link with the vaccine. But we still do not know what causes this reaction.'
He said that 'in the next few hours, we will say that there is a connection, but we still have to understand how this happens'.
But the regulator said the benefits of the vaccine in preventing coronavirus outweigh any risks and it urged the public to continue coming forward for the jab.
I guess that Sir Miles and others owe an apology to Karl Lauterbach and me......
quote Lady Rose: >>Science isn't being followed though is it? The science repeatedly says there is no relation to the AZ vaccine and these very rare blood clots.<<
source:
Various german news outlets and
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9432593/Expert-suspects-causal-link-AstraZeneca-jab-rare-blood-clots.html
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm not sure an apology is neccesery, but the evidence is peiling up against the AZ vaccine and I think we all can acknowledge it.
Well, I have been saying it for weeks now (since March 16) and certain people felt it necessary to attack Germany, the EU, Lauterbach and myself on and on....
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!