Something doesn't add up. Brosnan wears more than just these two collars in the Bond films. The TWINE collar on the order form is listed as 'own shape', and it is wider than a POW collar. In the patterns I have a photo of, there is a POW collar, and a slightly wider and higher collar next to it that looks like the TWINE collar. I have a POW collar shirt of my own that I've made comparisons with.
Could it simply be that they tweaked the PoW collar (ie slighly more spread etc) which in the CAD became its own collar? Ie it is a slightly taller PoW with a slightly wider spread?
They confirmed btw that "Reg" referred to "Regular" not "Regent".
BaB
Ah, that's good to know about REG. I really don't know what to say now about the CAD patterns, since they show a Regent pattern for Brosnan that is higher than the rest. Based on the person I know who has the TWINE collar, it has a different internal name on his CAD pattern that is the name of the customer who originally had it made. So it's possible that the TWINE collar isn't any one of those patterns in the CAD image and it may just be that paper pattern.
One thing I should have asked before is if the back height in the POW collar they measured is the height of the leaf or of the band. Can you confirm which? It makes all the difference!
Ah, that's good to know about REG. I really don't know what to say now about the CAD patterns, since they show a Regent pattern for Brosnan that is higher than the rest. Based on the person I know who has the TWINE collar, it has a different internal name on his CAD pattern that is the name of the customer who originally had it made. So it's possible that the TWINE collar isn't any one of those patterns in the CAD image and it may just be that paper pattern.
One thing I should have asked before is if the back height in the POW collar they measured is the height of the leaf or of the band. Can you confirm which? It makes all the difference!
I will ask, my suspicion is that it is the back height, because that matches what I've checked on my existing shirts. For example an old RTW shirt has a 1 1/2 back height.
Ah, that's good to know about REG. I really don't know what to say now about the CAD patterns, since they show a Regent pattern for Brosnan that is higher than the rest. Based on the person I know who has the TWINE collar, it has a different internal name on his CAD pattern that is the name of the customer who originally had it made. So it's possible that the TWINE collar isn't any one of those patterns in the CAD image and it may just be that paper pattern.
One thing I should have asked before is if the back height in the POW collar they measured is the height of the leaf or of the band. Can you confirm which? It makes all the difference!
I will ask, my suspicion is that it is the back height, because that matches what I've checked on my existing shirts. For example an old RTW shirt has a 1 1/2 back height.
BaB
What I'm asking is if the back height they told you is for the band or the leaf. Some shirtmakers use the band and some use the leaf. My RTW T&A shirts all measure 1 3/4" for the back height of the leaf and about 1/4-3/8" less for the band.
What I'm asking is if the back height they told you is for the band or the leaf. Some shirtmakers use the band and some use the leaf. My RTW T&A shirts all measure 1 3/4" for the back height of the leaf and about 1/4-3/8" less for the band.
Yes, my guess is that it is the collarband height in the back that they have provided, but will double check. The collar band on my bespoke shirts are 1 3/4 in the back for example.
What I'm asking is if the back height they told you is for the band or the leaf. Some shirtmakers use the band and some use the leaf. My RTW T&A shirts all measure 1 3/4" for the back height of the leaf and about 1/4-3/8" less for the band.
Yes, my guess is that it is the collarband height in the back that they have provided, but will double check. The collar band on my bespoke shirts are 1 3/4 in the back for example.
BaB
Ah, okay. This would make sense for TWINE, and possibly TND as well. The TND collar looks slightly shorter to me, but when you see him in the hotel room with the collar unbuttoned it's quite high in front. So I should have known that 1 3/4" from the collar leaf would have been too short for either. The Thomas Crown collar, however, looks like a standard POW collar. It doesn't look as high.
Ah, okay. This would make sense for TWINE, and possibly TND as well. The TND collar looks slightly shorter to me, but when you see him in the hotel room with the collar unbuttoned it's quite high in front. So I should have known that 1 3/4" from the collar leaf would have been too short for either. The Thomas Crown collar, however, looks like a standard POW collar. It doesn't look as high.
Do you think this means the shirts in TCA were just rtw?
Ah, okay. This would make sense for TWINE, and possibly TND as well. The TND collar looks slightly shorter to me, but when you see him in the hotel room with the collar unbuttoned it's quite high in front. So I should have known that 1 3/4" from the collar leaf would have been too short for either. The Thomas Crown collar, however, looks like a standard POW collar. It doesn't look as high.
Do you think this means the shirts in TCA were just rtw?
The fit would suggest that. But they don't usually sell the POW collar in RTW, though it has been done at times.
While you have T&A’s ear, maybe they could tell you? :007). I’ve always wanted to know the exact fabric codes for the white herringbone and blue “Pisarro loaner” shirts.
I've not enjoyed visiting the forums since the redesign, but nevertheless I am curious whether there's been any new developments, BaB? Was enjoying the ongoing discussion.
Sorry that I've been off radar for a while. After Tier 4 restrictions cut short filming, then the Lockdown, I've been at home homeschooling, and both computers have been hoarded by the kids. They are now back at school, so The Bond Vivant will be back in business, fiiiiiinally.
I noticed that there's a renewed interest in the Thomas Crown Affair. Urhash- you mentioned that you have an interest in 2 of the herringbone shirts from the film. When we return to shoot part 2 of my film at T&A, we can possibly find out the materials, but can you let me know which scene you're referring to for the white herringbone? You mention that the blue herringbone is in the Pissarro scene. Which scene is the white one from?
In terms of the silver tie from the Pissarro scene, I think you were the owner of the tie. (It's a beauty!) It's also extremely similar to the Burgundy/ Blue zigzag tie Gustav Graves wears when he parachutes into London in DAD.
Finally, does anybody have any high resolution pictures of the DAD deep burgundy polkadot press preview tie? We think we know what the pattern is, but a confirmation of the background weave style would be useful to make sure.
Cheers, one and all, and can't wait to get back into the saddle...
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
edited March 2021
I recognise that desk. Those are my pics of the silver T&A tie. It’s also the same pattern that the TWINE tie should have been. I bought that and the TWINE tie at the same time, as well as some other TCA ties. They were all on the same rack due to having the same pattern, so easily recognisable. The red Graves tie was also there, but I never got that one. I still have them somewhere but they’ve been worn to death. I did try to find them in the mess that is my attic, but it’s so full of boxes and clothes and other costumes and crap I’ve collected over the years, that I gave up. The only one I found was that silver tie which Urhash has now.
I don't think it'll be possible to get a shaper image than this one (click to zoom):
As for the two TCA shirts... the white herringbone one is in the opening scene (for the robbery and famously when he checks his watch with the nice closeup). The blue shirt is the one when he first meets Rene Russo in the scene where he donates the Pisarro painting... that's probably a poplin shirt but it would be great to know the specific fabric code.
Quick update: More or less ready to order the shirt now, and it will only take a few weeks to make. That means it can be available in store when you visit to make the video in April Blair?
T&A just sent me a photo of the Bilbao shirt cloth from the cloth bunch, and looking at it on the left there seems to be a white herringbone very similar to that Brosnan wears in TCA?
New update: Shirt is ready and waiting at the Bury st store to be filmed by Blair for part 2 of his video, before it is shipped to me. Here's hoping it is screen accurate🤞
Although the store will be open next week, my cameraman has suffered a personal tragedy this week, and filming is on hold at the moment. But I will keep you informed and Part Two will hit the ground running soon.
Looks like a T&A shirt. 😄 Apart from that, hard to judge with it folded and packaged. I would've anticipated a bit more to the back height, from what I see though.
Back height is a bit hard to tell from the photo, I guess I’ll have to wait until I can measure myself.
But the spread looks pretty accurate to me? Compared for example to this Brosnan photo (which I believe is the best shot in the Bilbao sequence to judge accurately)?
I think it's not really possible to judge spread from a packaged shirt (imo). For example the classic collar on the T&A website doesn't even really look like how it does when worn. I think the biggest thing that makes this collar special is that it curves inward slightly (apparent from the photo you posted of Brosnan)... I think that'll be the thing to look for when worn on the neck.
On another note, I can confirm that the collar worn by Brosnan in TWINE is a POW, as I've seen the order confirmation sent to EON for "Bond 19" in December 1998 and which references "Collar: POW" and "Cuff: DC".
It will be a personalised POW of course, but it seems clear that it was never referred to as a "Regent" by T&A.
Comments
Umm yea, what? These are 4 different collars…
Ah, that's good to know about REG. I really don't know what to say now about the CAD patterns, since they show a Regent pattern for Brosnan that is higher than the rest. Based on the person I know who has the TWINE collar, it has a different internal name on his CAD pattern that is the name of the customer who originally had it made. So it's possible that the TWINE collar isn't any one of those patterns in the CAD image and it may just be that paper pattern.
One thing I should have asked before is if the back height in the POW collar they measured is the height of the leaf or of the band. Can you confirm which? It makes all the difference!
I will ask, my suspicion is that it is the back height, because that matches what I've checked on my existing shirts. For example an old RTW shirt has a 1 1/2 back height.
BaB
What I'm asking is if the back height they told you is for the band or the leaf. Some shirtmakers use the band and some use the leaf. My RTW T&A shirts all measure 1 3/4" for the back height of the leaf and about 1/4-3/8" less for the band.
Yes, my guess is that it is the collarband height in the back that they have provided, but will double check. The collar band on my bespoke shirts are 1 3/4 in the back for example.
BaB
Ah, okay. This would make sense for TWINE, and possibly TND as well. The TND collar looks slightly shorter to me, but when you see him in the hotel room with the collar unbuttoned it's quite high in front. So I should have known that 1 3/4" from the collar leaf would have been too short for either. The Thomas Crown collar, however, looks like a standard POW collar. It doesn't look as high.
Do you think this means the shirts in TCA were just rtw?
The fit would suggest that. But they don't usually sell the POW collar in RTW, though it has been done at times.
Maybe just something they picked up at the NYC store?
BaB
That's a lot of shirts to just pick up at the store, but it's a possibility.
Given the much more limited action sequences as compared to the Bond movies, do you think they needed that many copies of each shirt in TCA?
BaB
I've not enjoyed visiting the forums since the redesign, but nevertheless I am curious whether there's been any new developments, BaB? Was enjoying the ongoing discussion.
Sorry that I've been off radar for a while. After Tier 4 restrictions cut short filming, then the Lockdown, I've been at home homeschooling, and both computers have been hoarded by the kids. They are now back at school, so The Bond Vivant will be back in business, fiiiiiinally.
I noticed that there's a renewed interest in the Thomas Crown Affair. Urhash- you mentioned that you have an interest in 2 of the herringbone shirts from the film. When we return to shoot part 2 of my film at T&A, we can possibly find out the materials, but can you let me know which scene you're referring to for the white herringbone? You mention that the blue herringbone is in the Pissarro scene. Which scene is the white one from?
In terms of the silver tie from the Pissarro scene, I think you were the owner of the tie. (It's a beauty!) It's also extremely similar to the Burgundy/ Blue zigzag tie Gustav Graves wears when he parachutes into London in DAD.
Finally, does anybody have any high resolution pictures of the DAD deep burgundy polkadot press preview tie? We think we know what the pattern is, but a confirmation of the background weave style would be useful to make sure.
Cheers, one and all, and can't wait to get back into the saddle...
Blair
The Bond Vivant - Twitter
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I recognise that desk. Those are my pics of the silver T&A tie. It’s also the same pattern that the TWINE tie should have been. I bought that and the TWINE tie at the same time, as well as some other TCA ties. They were all on the same rack due to having the same pattern, so easily recognisable. The red Graves tie was also there, but I never got that one. I still have them somewhere but they’ve been worn to death. I did try to find them in the mess that is my attic, but it’s so full of boxes and clothes and other costumes and crap I’ve collected over the years, that I gave up. The only one I found was that silver tie which Urhash has now.
I don't think it'll be possible to get a shaper image than this one (click to zoom):
As for the two TCA shirts... the white herringbone one is in the opening scene (for the robbery and famously when he checks his watch with the nice closeup). The blue shirt is the one when he first meets Rene Russo in the scene where he donates the Pisarro painting... that's probably a poplin shirt but it would be great to know the specific fabric code.
The grey tie in TCA is a different pattern than the TWINE tie. The angle of the zig zag is different.
Quick update: More or less ready to order the shirt now, and it will only take a few weeks to make. That means it can be available in store when you visit to make the video in April Blair?
BaB
Brilliant! I'll liaise with James and keep you in the loop. Thanks for the heads up!
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Great, thanks. I've mentioned this to them also, so they'll keep the shirt in store until you can visit.
Actually just received the confirmation of the order going into the factory:
I spoke with the factory and they are ready to go with the Brosnan CAD.
They actually used this when we did a shirt for Madame Tussauds 🙂
So here are the details:-
Cloth 9300 (Sea Island Blue Oxford)
Collar POW (Brosnan 'The World is Not Enough')
Cuffs Double
Gauntlet Button
BaB
T&A just sent me a photo of the Bilbao shirt cloth from the cloth bunch, and looking at it on the left there seems to be a white herringbone very similar to that Brosnan wears in TCA?
New update: Shirt is ready and waiting at the Bury st store to be filmed by Blair for part 2 of his video, before it is shipped to me. Here's hoping it is screen accurate🤞
BaB
Although the store will be open next week, my cameraman has suffered a personal tragedy this week, and filming is on hold at the moment. But I will keep you informed and Part Two will hit the ground running soon.
The Bond Vivant - Twitter
The Bond Vivant - Facebook
The Bond Vivant - YouTube
Sorry to hear that Blair. Looking forward to part 2 whenever ready.
The shirt was delivered to the store this week. Photo below. Thoughts?
BaB
Looks like a T&A shirt. 😄 Apart from that, hard to judge with it folded and packaged. I would've anticipated a bit more to the back height, from what I see though.
Back height is a bit hard to tell from the photo, I guess I’ll have to wait until I can measure myself.
But the spread looks pretty accurate to me? Compared for example to this Brosnan photo (which I believe is the best shot in the Bilbao sequence to judge accurately)?
BaB
I think it's not really possible to judge spread from a packaged shirt (imo). For example the classic collar on the T&A website doesn't even really look like how it does when worn. I think the biggest thing that makes this collar special is that it curves inward slightly (apparent from the photo you posted of Brosnan)... I think that'll be the thing to look for when worn on the neck.
Thanks, good point.
On another note, I can confirm that the collar worn by Brosnan in TWINE is a POW, as I've seen the order confirmation sent to EON for "Bond 19" in December 1998 and which references "Collar: POW" and "Cuff: DC".
It will be a personalised POW of course, but it seems clear that it was never referred to as a "Regent" by T&A.
BaB
Cool! Are you able to glean any other information from the order form? (# of shirts ordered, different collar lining, etc).
If you are permitted to post a pic that would be amazing. 🙂
Isn't the 'inward curve' more to do with the material and the position of the collar stiffeners? I have a few shirts which look that way on occasion.