Bring back the classic Monty Norman theme
John from Cork
Posts: 129MI6 Agent
I think thay should never have stopped using it in the first place
John from Cork
Posts: 129MI6 Agent
I think thay should never have stopped using it in the first place
Comments
Are you referring to the original Dr No recording of the James Bond Theme? If I remember correctly the last use of that was in the climax of OHMSS or did it also pop up in DAF?
There's something about that first recording that is quite special - as if they were never quite able to recreate the energy and urgency of it again. I do also feel that it sounds of its time - a distinctly 1960s version of the Bond theme that when used in later years is normally used in a parodic or nostalgic way in film and TV etc. So if they were to use that version in a modern Bond film I think it would feel like a nostalgic move rather than the music actually belonging in a new Bond film.
I remember when Casino Royale's soundtrack was released (just before seeing the film for the first time) I was so pleased to hear a relatively traditional sounding arrangement of the Bond theme after so many years of electronically enhanced versions (although not necessarily enhanced in a positive way) and before that the rather different Kamen version and the many years of Barry's more symphonic sounding arrangement. It had more of a 1960s feel while still being a modern sounding recording. I think that sort of approach remains the best way to use the Bond theme ... however, I am a bit bored of Arnold's CR arrangement now, after even Newman continued using it. It worked really well in Skyfall during the DB5 scene. I wish other films would use it in the body of the film rather than just adding it on at the end over the credits.
You're correct, Golrush007. The last use of the original recording was in OHMSS and it doesn't appear in DAF (though of course JB did make contemporary recordings of parts of it during the score).
Editor Peter Hunt would insist on it being in on certain key action scenes, much to John Barry's chagrin who fancied he'd penned something more appropriate. This included the autogyro scene in YOLT and the Piz Gloria shootout in the next one. Once Hunt was done with the series, so was the old style theme it appears. In any case it wouldn't fit with the new Moore years, as they were opting for a different style.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I must admit I never liked it when the '62 recording popped up in later films... somehow it felt a bit cheap to me.
Did Barry have music written for the Piz Gloria shootout that Hunt discarded? If so, is it available for listening to? I have to admit that I liked the use of the Norman Bond theme in OHMSS--it felt like the reappearance of an old friend. And since a new Bond was being introduced, linking him to the original Bond theme was appropriate. Lastly, it was neat bit of classic traditionalism in a score that' otherwise futuristic in its use of synthesizers.
Yes, he did and yes, it is: listen to "Battle At Piz Gloria" on the album (preferably the 2003 edition). Only part of this is heard in the film, since Hunt replaced it with the James Bond Theme.
Battle at Piz Gloria is a smashing cue, I really like the faster version of the OHMSS theme.
Somewhere I have a version of OHMSS with the unused music put back into the film. I'd quite like to revisit that and see if I prefer not having the JB theme in that Piz Gloria attack sequence.
How did you come by that. @Golrush007 ? That would be an interesting listen. Personally I feel the insert of the original Bond theme detracts from the suspense of the action scene, it's a bit - oh this is nice, here we go again.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I have been fortunate enough to had attended "Skyfall Live" and "Casino Royale Live" with the full orchestra and on both occasions they absolutely just rocked the Bond Theme at the veryend. Just goose-bump stuff to hear it live, with a good guitarist, and an orchestra that's really enjoying playing it and who played it on and on. It just sounds fantastic live and I was sat close enough to the front to see the pleasure on the musicians' faces as well. Clearly they enjoyed it as much as I did.
Totally agree, it's wonderful live.
I wish they’d do a Barry film live. I know it’d be Goldfinger, but I’d take that.
It was sent to me by The Cat, who used to be a regular here. Unfortanately I was unable to find the disc when I looked for it at home yesterday, which suggests to me that it is probably in storage about 2000km from where I am at present.
I've got that somewhere too. It wasn't quite worth what he charged for it: he made out like it contained unreleased music from the film but it was just the tracks from the soundtrack release edited in.
He wasn't meant to charge for it - as with Blofeld's Cat, who promoted his version of Never Say McClory Again, the way to go is you're expected to make a donation or offer a token of your esteem!
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Pretty sure he did though.
It was 15 years ago...I must admit I've completely forgotten the circumstances around payments etc for the OHMSS 'composers cut' (as The Cat referred to it).
Bloody cats!
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I got (and get) a real kick out of the uses of the '62 recording during YOLT's Little Nellie sequence and OHMSS's attack on Piz Gloria, even though Hunt may have been displacing other excellent Barry cues or arrangements. That '62 Bond theme recording seemed to inject a raw and exciting sense of 'authentic' Bond into YOLT - just when excessive fantasy elements were risking pulling the series too far away from its cinematic origins - and again in OHMSS, a film fronted by a new, 'Carnaby Street' Bond who benefited from some of that '62 sound, on the rocks, as an added layer of validation for the climax of his outing.
It's sad to think that (the odd trailer excepted) the '62 recording has been retired since '69. It might even have been fun if Arnold, during his tenure, had just gone ahead and pulled a Hunt, for the hell of it, once or twice. (If Newman had done this, though, it would have put his own scoring to shame!)
@emtiem: "I must admit I never liked it when the '62 recording popped up in later films... somehow it felt a bit cheap to me."
I got (and get) a real kick out of the uses of the '62 recording during YOLT's Little Nellie sequence and OHMSS's climax, even though Hunt may have been displacing other excellent Barry cues or arrangements. That '62 Bond recording seemed to inject a raw and exciting sense of 'authentic' Bond into YOLT - just when excessive fantasy elements were risking pulling the series too far away from its cinematic origins - and again in OHMSS, a film fronted by a new, 'Carnaby Street' Bond who benefited from some of that '62 sound, on the rocks, as an added layer of validation for the climax of his outing.
Oh, Shady, Shady, Shady, I love your comment. Critics you don't need.
I also love the inclusion of the Monty Norman recording in YOLT and OHMSS.
It's particularly good in the Little Nellie sequence as this is the first time that the theme is heard from start to finish, without fading, stopping, repositioning, etc etc. The theme is never even used properly in DR NO, the movie it's most associated with. Hunt's editing of the battle scene choreographs the action to the music, raising the standard of the on screen entertainment at least another two or three notches. When you watch this in a cinema - as I have done twice - it is a scene which blows you away with tension, excitement and fun and the theme ices the confection.
The Piz Gloria battle sequence isn't quite so successful, but here I enjoy it because it's an identifiable tune which seems to say "James Bond to the rescue."
I wouldn't however necessarily want to have it used extensively on a modern Bond soundtrack. I loved Moby's reworking for TND. That's one of the better cover versions IMO. A sadly missed opportunity is including the interpretation given by The John Barry Seven which pounds even harder than the Norman version.
I like most of the different arrangements of the Bond Theme.
My favorite is the original '62 version. It might be considered "retro" these days but IMO, it has stood the test of time.
Barry took Monty Norman's basic composition and reinvented it into the perfect melding of jazz/swing and instrumental rock.
IMO, no one has ever topped Vic Flick's fat, twangy, Duane Eddy style guitar tone on the '62 recording.
David Arnold actually played the lead guitar part himself on the recording done for the end scene of CR and did a nice job of it.
I am very curious to hear/see what Hans Zimmer and guitarist Johnny Marr have done with it in NTTD.
Just for clarity-
(1) There isn't and wasn't a "Monty Norman Orchestra" whatever misleading album credits may say. There were two versions recorded in 1962: one for the film, and one for the single. Both versions were arranged and conducted by John Barry.
Here's the single- The James Bond Theme - John Barry Seven - 1962 45rpm - Bing video
And you all know the one from the film. As can be heard, they sound very similar but are not identical. Over the many years since, both versions have been used on compilations
(2) The version used for the Little Nellie scene isn't simply the usual version. It was edited and looped by Peter Hunt.
Thanks for that tip Barbel. I wasn't aware of that. However, I would still attest unlike all previous films this scene at least allows a full and uninterrupted listen to the Bond Theme as action - and suitable action at that- unfolds on screen.
Barbel said:
Just for clarity-
(1) There isn't and wasn't a "Monty Norman Orchestra" whatever misleading album credits may say. There were two versions recorded in 1962: one for the film, and one for the single. Both versions were arranged and conducted by John Barry.
thanks for the clarification, boss, cuz I was getting confused!
I love that original version, love the twangy guitar sound, and the sound of the other early singles John Barry 7 were putting out in those early days.
But in most of the examples given, I find its use on later soundtrack sticks out to the point of distraction. Barry's musical pallette had evolved by the time of You Only Live Twice and On Her Majesty's Secret Service. I believe his score tells the story, the choice of instrumentation is unique to the tone of each movie, and all of sudden the story is disrupted by this incongruous sounding blast from the past.
Even in From Russia with Love its appearance is distracting. I cant remember it particularly from Goldfinger or Thunderball, so if its there he must have integrated it more subtly somehow.
Yes, it's integrated as you say. Even the gunbarrel for those is a new recording, not the original.
Here’s a little clip of Mr Marr playing it in the latest version:
Thanks to emtiem for the clip. Not surprising that Marr is being very deferential to Vic Flick's original guitar work with plenty of reverb and twang.
I actually like Zimmer's arrangement; sounds like a melding of the '62 original and the later orchestral arrangements. From what little I have heard from the actual soundtrack of NTTD, I think there is reason to be optimistic about what Zimmer has done.
Agreed! And thanks emtiem for sharing that. I like Zimmer's arrangement as well, and am hopeful about Zimmer's score. He's quite a brand name of his own, and hearing his take on Bond will be fun.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Only just saw the above-quoted post.
In reply to the above, I am moved to present a couple of 'points of order' about my 'Never Say McClory Again' (NSMcA) project:
1) I never 'charged' for NSMcA per-se. In the early days, the only practical method of distribution was physical media i.e. DVD disc sent via snail-mail. It can hardly be called 'charging' when the cost covered a DVD disc, padded shipping bag, and (mostly international) shipping. Not sure that it's a reasonable expectation for me to send-out the discs at cost to me. In any event, as soon as the 'internet' infrastructure developed to the point where downloading of an 8Gb file was no longer problematic for the majority, distribution of NSMcA became exclusively available via file-link to a free legitimate file-sharing facility - the only 'charge' being the bandwidth of the downloader.
2) I never 'made out like it contained unreleased music form the film'. Indeed, I went to great lengths, in all the promo blurbs which appeared on Usenet and Forums, to precisely articulate that NSMcA was re-scored with pre-existing cues from the Eon OO7 films.
While I don't take issue with negative opinions about the merit of NSMcA, as an alternative version to NSNA, I do take exception to misrepresentations about it.
cheers,
007homevideo (aka Blofelds Cat)
www.007homevideo.com
The Bondles' Shamthology - the official unofficial website of the Sad Double-Oh Seven, The Bondles.
www.shamthology.com
You've got the wrong end of the stick here, the post you quoted isn't talking about NSMcA, it's talking about a version of OHMSS which a similarly-named member here ('The Cat') sold making it sound like it was full of alternate cues, which it barely did, and nothing not already in the public realm. I never claimed that you charged for NSMcA.
What became of your HD version of NSMcA incidentally? I remember trying to find it during lockdown but couldn't find any trace of it anywhere.