How do you rate NTTDs PTS compared to all the other PTS sequences?
Number24
NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
Thinking just of the PTS' of all the Bond's, how does NTTD rate for you?
To me it's absolutely in the top five and most likely in the top three. The CR PTS is a very different beast being short and thriller style. NTTD may become number one for me, but at this point I can't say for sure.
Your turn ... 😀
Comments
Oh, dear. Something middling. It's too long. Should have stopped after the bomb explosion. Cue credits and breath holding.
Unfortunately, Craig-Bond already did all this 'is he dead' stuff in Skyfall, so the impact would have been lessened.
Alternatively do the whole Matera business after the credits.
Apparently the Korean movie Drive My Car has its credits 40 minutes in, so there's no accounting for taste. I don't like the long PTS. It becomes less of a teaser, more a movie in its own right.
I agree the PTS is on the long side, but I didn't find it too long.
I'd put it near the bottom. It felt like it went on way too long. The part with young Madeleine, which is essentially a flashback, felt out of place. Bond pining over Vesper's grave felt tiresome, you'd think he'd have moved on by now. The chase with the motorcycle and later the Aston Martin, like so much of the action in this movie, felt disjointed and not well paced with too many fits and starts and attempts and exposition woven in. Watching Madeleine tell Bond again and again that she has to tell him something but never actually saying anything was maddening. Bond himself comes across as a complete idiot, falling for Blofeld's plot to convince him that Madeleine betrayed him way too easily. You'd think he would at least stop and ask himself if his greatest nemesis, who wanted nothing more than to see him suffer would be the most trustworthy voice in that moment. But I guess Craig's Bond isn't bright enough to put that together. Either that or he has a pathological need to always feel betrayed.
At the end of the day, the PTS often sets the pace for the film. Many are fun like the fight in the chalet & jet pack escape from Thunderball or the parachute jump from The Spy Who Loved me, where that sense of spectacle carries over into the film proper. This one felt tedious, overbearing and poorly thought out, which pretty much lines up with how I felt about the whole movie. So in that respect, mission accomplished. I guess.
how does it compare quantitatively?
I found this list at our Rival forum, in a thread called Pre-Title Sequences from Shortest to Longest
Rival Agent MakeshiftPython estimated No Time to Die as 24 minutes,
and the same Rival Agent also sorted the previous films (not counting Dr No) in order of ascending length
From Russia with Love - 3:00
Casino Royale - 3:11
Quantum of Solace - 3:36
Live and Let Die - 4:30
Thunderball - 4:32
Diamonds Are Forever - 4:32
Goldfinger - 4:52
Moonraker - 5:32
You Only Live Twice - 5:47
A View to a Kill - 5:59
For Your Eyes Only - 6:16
On Her Majesty's Secret Service - 6:32
The Living Daylights - 7:14
Octopussy - 7:16
The Spy Who Loved Me- 7:40
The Man with the Golden Gun - 7:55
Licence to Kill - 8:32
Tomorrow Never Dies - 9:12
GoldenEye - 10:10
Spectre - 12:26
Skyfall - 12:33
Die Another Day - 13:12
The World is Not Enough - 14:05
so it's as substantial as Brosnan's first and third combined! or, as much content as the first six films combined (keeping in mind Dr No didn't have one)
Qualitatively is a subjective value judgement which I may expand upon later when I get a moment, but the Executive Summary is: I liked it!
I quite liked NTTD's PTS but my one problem is that it's too long to be a sequence. It's really two very distinct sequences--Madeline's flashback to Norway, followed by her and Bond's ordeal in Matera. I understand why this happened: Putting the credits on after Madeline ends her flashback would have felt weird, since the Bond films generally stay away from PTS that don't have Bond in them. The filmmakers ultimately did the right thing in delaying the credits until Madeline and Bond's parting, but putting 24 minutes between the gunbarrel and credits felt like too long a gap, and I hope future Bond films will avoid it.
I like my PTSs to be fast and action-filled. I want to be glued to me seat or sucked to the edge of my seat. I want the theme song to be an opportunity to catch my breath before I settle down for the rest of the film. A good PTS can build a story (with a legitimate beginning, middle and an end) but still be spectacular, visually impressive and be action-packed and punchy. While the action was good (although I found it disappointing compared to the expectations I had built over the months of previews and sneak peeks), there was way too much other stuff around it. That made it too long and too filled with story/drama. Cut out the drama and leave in the action with enough of an intro and it would have been very good. I don't know how to rate it compared to other Bond PTSs, but it certainly wouldn't be in my top three, I very much doubt.
I do think some of the carpers on this thread have got it all wrong, though @chrisno1 comes closest by suggesting it's a mini movie. The pre-credits is alright in that the movie should finish at the end of it! It's the rest of the film that sucks! Should end so we imagine Bond gets his retirement away from the tiresome Ms Swann, okay his Aston is trashed and that's a shame, no annoying kid though.
More seriously, I now judge a pre-credits on whether I'd watch it if it came on telly, irrespective of the film, so those of FYEO, The Living Daylights, GoldenEye, QoS come to mind, I'd tune in for those but not always the subsequent film. I think the same of NTTD, it's a big event opener, shame the tune is dreary, I still couldn't sing it to you. Was it ever utilised in the soundtrack, or was it all OHMSS?
Roger Moore 1927-2017
qualitatively .. well I can't do this ranking thing which is the topic of the thread, but assessing it on it own terms...
I really like it, and think its the best part of the film!
Its got incredible exotic location photography, something I've felt missing in most of the recent films, and was integral to all the old good films. (SPECTRE could easily have been one of those old teevee shows where they use stock footage for establishing shots to suggest now we're in Rome or Morocco then film the rest in the studio), And the location is used imaginatively as the high concept setting for the chases. Very three dimensional with all the vertical movement and steep hills!
Probably the most spectacular car chase sequence of the Craig era, and the money shot that made it into all the trailers.
More spectacular action sequences like the motorcycle jump, also in all the trailers (though maybe there didn't need to be two lengthy chases in a row).
All the psychological stuff made logical sense to me: these are two very badly damaged characters, and we should expect their relationship to be dysfunctional. Some other fans don't want any psychological content in a BondFilm, but this whole film is a What If story so it fits, and their argument sets up the main body of the film.
Opening with the subjective flashback to Madeleine's childhood is the most radical deviation from how BondFilms should start. But this film also ends with Madeleine's Point of View, so consider this whole What If story...
...of Bond's last days...
...to be told from the BondGirl's Point of View and you've got something Fleming himself once did!
Structurally it goes on so damn long, that in itself is bold. But the main body of the film is long too, there could be a corresponding list ranking the lengths of the main body of previous BondFilms and this one would also be longer than most.
Consider it two separate stories, a double feature. The precredits is long enough to be a half hour teevee episode, except with massive budget. We waited five long years, paid the normal ticket price, and we got two Bond stories for the price of one.
Also consider this: there's a five year time break between these two linked stories. I think SPECTRE is the only CraigBondfilm without a time break of several months or longer at some point within the film. These CraigBond films actually have a very fractured internal chronology, with at least one chapter straddling the end and beginning of two films. I think once you have the DVDs, you don't need to watch CraigBond's saga in five parts over five evenings, you can break it down into smaller portions over a week or more.
Given the time break between precredits and main body, the previous films to compare and contrast with are Goldeneye, Die Another Day, Casino Royale, and SkyFall.
Also the idea the opening credits should come so deep into the movie is just amusing for its perversity. Remember that season of Monty Pythons Flying Circus where they kept moving Gilliam's credits further back with each episode until it was finally the last thing? I hope in Bond26 they find an excuse to put the credits dead centre, and then keep moving them closer towards the end with each subsequent film.
There is no need to rank all the PTS', just consider the NTTD PTS compared to the others. It's of course nice when someone makes a list.
The Way of The List!
I rewatched NTTD today and I think it could've worked if the PTS started when adult Madeleine breaks the surface. Perhaps we should get a glimpse of Bond just before the title sequence starts. There's not even any good reason why the trip to Matera has to be the same day.
Many casual fans just won't recall that character or what she has to do with Bond, throw in that the opening scene is non-Bond like, more a horror film, and many might think, what the hell is this? They might need to see the scene where Bond is with her, to put them in the picture.
It's similar however to TWINE's lengthy pre-credits, originally slated to end after Bond's descent from the banker's office but it wasn't spectacular enough. They could have made it so with a more exciting exit across rooftops.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
But NTTD is a different Bond movie and not including Matera in it can signal this. It doesn't matter if many in the audience can't remember Madeleine If we only see Lea Seydoux in less than a minute and most of it with Bond. To most audience memeber the frozen lake scene was about a character they didn't know who was anyway.
TWINE was a good, but standard Bond movie. The Bilbao part of the PTS was unremarkable so it's undertandable when they didn't stop the PTS there. The frozen lake sequence in NTTD is remarkable. As you say: it's more like a horror film and many probably thought "what the hell is this?".In my opinion this means the audience are a bit schocked and are more ready for a differnt Bond movie.
This dosn't mean I'm convinced the PTS should've ended with adult Madeleine breaking the surface and seing Bond, but I think it's an interesting ide that could've worked.
Not a fan of the overly long PTSs but NTTD is very good. Norway scenes are shocking and very different for a Bond film. Matera and the DB5, brilliant.
My current (as let's face it, lists change) favourite 00Seven (in no particular order presently, as it's been a long day in the office and my brain hurts);
TSWLM
OHMSS
QoS
TLD
CR
NTTD
TWINE
which precredit sequences are the best part of the film?
which are so good they could stand alone?
which are attached to films that are so anticlimactic in comparison, that youd be better off just watching the precredits and then turn it off when the songs over?
I think Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me are the two classic ones that stand on their own as complete standalone mini-adventures, absolutely perfectly excecuted. But in both cases the rest of the film lives up to the teaser, they were both a legitimate sampler of the quality of whats to come.
Most of the other early precredits are not so good as those two, but the film proper is as good or better. Some of those early precredits are so short and so integral to the plot that they could not stand on their own anyway.
I think its starting with the Brosnan era we get these increasingly long precredits that make for very impressive mini-films on their own, then the main body of the film seems a bit cobbled together and doesnt add up. These last three Craigs I think really have that imbalance.
Tomorrow Never Dies has always been one of my top fave pre credits sequences: that's a really beautifully designed little sequence of action with some actual tension built into it.
Personally, I'd have liked to have seen the PTS end with the Norwegian sequence, perhaps with the young Madeleine making good her escape from the masked Safin. The rest of the material could have followed the credits, starting with the adult Madeleine breaking the surface of the water. (Okay, this would have meant a PTS without Bond, but that's not without precedent: we had a Bond-less PTS in LALD, and technically FRWL and TMWTGG were in the same category.) That would have been a daring choice for NTTD. Accordingly, the credits sequence could have been devoted to Madeleine- and Safin-related imagery, as opposed to Bond iconography, perhaps with Lea Seydoux modelling for Danny Kleinman or Billie Eilish appearing as a kind of avatar for the young Madeleine: romantic, unnerving, with mystique, but non-sexualised.
An alternative choice, equally brave, might have been to push back all the existing material to the other side of the credits sequence and design a different kind of Bond-less PTS... a self-contained mini-adventure for Nomi, introducing her as the new OO7! That might have led to an iconoclastic trick with the opening credits... "Albert R Broccoli's Eon Productions present Lashana Lynch as OO7 / with Daniel Craig as Ian Fleming's James Bond" :-) :-) :-) Though that would have called for a different style and tone of title song... one befitting Nomi more than Madeleine. (Or, maybe we could have had a self-contained mini-adventure for Paloma during her three weeks' training!)
As it stands, I like the train station parting scene between Bond and Madeleine as a segue into the credits sequence and the title song: it's mould-breaking in its own right.
Focusing the PTS on Nomi is a radical idea. Would it have cause some early walk-outs? I'm sceptical because basically the plot is about Bond and Madeleine, Nomi is a supporting character. But the idea is exiting!
I imagine the PTS being Madeline as a child in Norway, but ending with adult Madeleine breaking the surface and then Bond walks into frame behind her. We get Bond in the PTS, but only for a few seconds.
I must admit I'm still not sure about the Madeline flashback. It's quite a big chunk and tonally I'm not sure it feels totally at home.
I love long PTSs (TND ranks well high in my personal top), although I'm not sure about the double feature, and I prefer them being a separate mini mission even if they do have some minor relation to the main plot. That being said, the Norway stuff was a brilliant tonal piece, and the Matera chase was a great rollercoaster... except for Bond's reaction, which was completely dumb and lacking motivation. Much as his falling in love with Madeleine was in Spectre, so at least that's consistent. But generally I liked it.
"The very words I live by."
If you wonder about Bond's motivation for believing Madeleine was working for SPECTRE, just watch CR.
I don't exactly wonder about it (they rub in your face how he's looking over his shoulder); I just strain with the verosimilitude of Bond's knee jerk reactions, be it his quitting the service for Madeleine, be it his leaving her just because they had been attacked.
My suspension of disbelief suffers in front of what I saw as a poorly built relationship (script-wise, I mean). I find Bond's taking Blofeld's word at face value does not make any favours to his character.
"The very words I live by."
It is her idea to go to Matera and she pushes him to the bomb site though, then the Spectre logo pops up on her phone etc. I don't think it's presented as being too hard to swallow that he thinks she's betrayed him. He is a kneejerk kind of guy.
We agree on that last part... and now that you mention it, she did insist on his going; I had somehow misunderstood that part as something they had discussed beforehand and that had been Bond's idea. I stand corrected.
"The very words I live by."
Very highly. I have at it #2 behind only TSWLM (which will likely never be topped).
I like the different PTS for different reasons, and one of the reasons I like the NTTD PTS is because it is different.
It was not a disappointment for me, however I like the film as a whole.
I understand why people feel like this but for me Bond, both literary and cinematic, is a rash, gung-ho agent, easily bored and craving action. He messes up, a lot, but is redeemed by possessing the skills, bloody-mindedness and talent to overcome both adversaries and himself. He's always been 00-Houdini, which just makes the blank-canvas even more relatable as everyone screws up and hopes they have the guile and gumption to get out of it. Suspicion and knee-jerking is the essence of Bond.
I've been on holiday and am catching up on all things AJB and found this post stuck in the draft 'Leave A Comment' box. I read it. It's a rubbish post, but I'll leave you guys to say what you will about it - and I know you bloody well will...
Speaking as a writer, there is a general acceptance that when constructing a novel, the opening and closing chapters should be the shortest. The opening scene sets and presents the overarching topic or a segment of it, it is designed to intrigue and draw the reader into the story. The closing chapter is more or less a coda, resolving the remaining loose ends, ensuring the characters and story have closure. Cinematically, we can see the coda in action in NTTD, but the preface is all over the place, introducing a host of themes and story arcs which are too numerous to take in with any authority. That's the problem with these enormous PTS films, they go far beyond the requirements of an opening salvo. If we look at the 'classic' sixties period of PTS each of them delivers the preface format, although perhaps not in the completely traditional form, GF for instance doesn't introduce the topic at all, rather it shows Bond as a man of action, and explains how he ended up in Miami. The extended PTS doesn't neglect the theory, but they do it with such tremendous depth they cease to be a teaser and become part of the overall movie and story, or worse a completely separate story. GE and SF are particularly bad in this. SP could easily have stopped after the collapse of the building, a neat three / four minutes of interest. Curiously, two of the very best PTS have come during the Craig-Bond era, the three minute violence fostered tomes of CR and QOS, which fulfil the requirements of the opening chapter perfectly: we meet the central character, we begin to understand who he is and something of his background by what he is doing, we also meet an antagonist, there is a moment of extreme excitement, the chapter ends with a scene, or a line, which begs us to follow up and read (view) more. Creating these mini-movies, doesn't do this: we meet more people than the central character (M, Moneypenny, Madeleine, Q, numerous antagonists, a whole room-full in TWINE, etc) . They are basically yawn inducing.