The 60s Bond Rivals (2): Harry Palmer

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  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,999MI6 Agent

    Yes I guess if we’re going to complain about details then we have to be annoyed that everywhere looks like Liverpool! πŸ˜„

  • Westward_DriftWestward_Drift Posts: 3,113MI6 Agent

    If we go by what's on our televisions, the other planets in the universe look like either a British rock quarry or a forest outside Vancouver, British Columbia.

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    Finally got to the end of the new "Ipcress File", which I thoroughly enjoyed. The 60s setting was well conveyed, the cast was damn good. I'm sure that John Hodge must have flicked through the book, maybe to find a name he could use, but I could be wrong. He definitely saw the film, though.

    That said, I hope it's successful enough to warrant a sequel, and if so I hope it's "Horse Under Water" which has never been filmed rather than "Funeral In Berlin".

  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,999MI6 Agent
    edited March 2022

    Hodge said in an interview that he's interested in Billion Dollar Brain. I'm certainly hoping there's more. He's certainly read the books.

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    I know, it was just my way of pointing out how different the series was to the book.

    Brain is my favourite of the Palmer stories, and yes of course I'd like to see this team having a go at it but I'd prefer Horse as it's never been filmed.

  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,999MI6 Agent

    I know, it was just my way of pointing out that writers do put a bit of effort in! 😊 I've found so far that it's very different to the film (albeit of course starring Harry Palmer!).

    He said he thought Deighton lost interest in the book towards the end so I'm looking forward to seeing where he takes it.

    I must admit I never finished Horse, I found it rather slow going. Maybe I'll give it another go.

  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 7,372MI6 Agent

    I watched episode 3 last night and the series just keeps getting better and better. I particularly enjoyed the way information was passed using footballers names of the day in episode 2.

    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,999MI6 Agent
    edited March 2022

    Yes I did ep3 last night as well, very enjoyable and the location work is great.

    Also I thought Harry’s Beirut outfit with the high necked jumper and jacket was great! πŸ˜„

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    I'm not much of a one for noticing the clothing in films etc, but it did all seem period accurate to me. The Bride liked what Jean was wearing, while I only noticed Harry's clothes when they were close to what Michael Caine had in the film (the overcoat, for example).

    Not much of a spoiler: Len Deighton never tells us what Dalby's first name is, nor does the film, but here in the TV adaptation we find out that it's William.

    This is a spoiler:

    If they do make a sequel, I imagine Tom Hollander as Dalby will be back as Harry's boss, replacing Dawlish from the novels and Ross from the films. No problem as far as I'm concerned.

  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 7,372MI6 Agent

    Episode 4 done now. Fantastic. Just loving this series. More…please!

    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,140MI6 Agent
    edited March 2022

    supposedly in the original Ipcress File you can see Deighton's recipes pinned up on 'arry's kitchen wall. I just had a quick look at the opening credits of the film, and you can see one here pinned against the wood that separates the kitchen from the living room

    Later when Jean breaks into his apartment but doesn't stay for dinner, we see he has a whole bundle pinned to that one spot

    And then in the later scene where Jean does stay, here's the clearest shot of all, you can almost read this one! So they seem to always be in the same place. That recipe seems to think its one of the costars, 'arry and Jean are getting pushed to the margins of the frame as it hogs the camera for its self! also, I'm sure I read somewhere that's Deighton's own hands stunt-doubling when we watch 'arry cooking his meals.

    I posted some examples of these Deighton recipes over in @CoolHandBond 's Book Covers thread, rather than inserting the same graphics twice I'll just lead you back there. Deighton was a graphic artist himself, and these are actually in comic strip format, called "CookStrips". These were published one by one in The Observer, then compiled into books such as the Action CookBook and sequels.

    here's an article in The Guardian about the CookStrips and the making of the first film. Here's a google image search of more examples of Deighton's CookStrips.

    Looking at those examples I found, the recipes are meat heavy, one of them illustrating exactly the parts of a pig to be used in the recipe. I guess thats manly He-Man cooking, not at all suitable for a wussy vegetarian like me! but I like the comic strip format!


    aw heck lets post a few different ones. again with the butchers cut specificity

    and here's one for quesadillas and one for pico de gallo! hey we werent so far off when we 'ad our 'arry cook Jean a bean burrito! maybe I can eat some of this cooking! and I note the first meal we watch him cook is mostly green pepper, onions and eggs.

    I hope they got this aspect right in the remake. foodie culture, farmers markets and celebrity chefs have become a really big thing in recent years, this film was ahead of its time in that respect.

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    Didn't you say something like "don't try this recipe, I only made it up as I went along"! 😁

  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,140MI6 Agent

    in all seriousness, I bollox'd it based on what I remember watching the short order cooks do at my old restaurant. seems simple enough, but they werent using iron cauldrons and kilns like Elizabethan 'arry 'ad to make do with. and my instructions for mole sauce turned out to be completely wrong once I looked it up, supposedly taking days to prepare! what I wrote will probably make you sick! note this Disclaimer, I take no responsibility for the health complications of anybody fool enough to try that "recipe"

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    Having made Shakespeare versions of all the James Bond movies, we turned our attention to a Christopher Marlowe version of "The Ipcress File"- we hope you enjoy it!

    https://www.ajb007.co.uk/discussion/comment/1041643#Comment_1041643

  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 7,372MI6 Agent

    I’ve finished it now and thought it was an excellent production, some nice nods here and there to the original movie which I will watch again soon.

    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 7,372MI6 Agent


    Brilliant, simply brilliant, guys, a lot of work has gone into this and many thanks for giving us a memorable play. I’m going to watch the movie at the weekend and I won’t be able to keep some of these scenes out of my head πŸ˜‚

    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • Westward_DriftWestward_Drift Posts: 3,113MI6 Agent

    Many thanks.

    I dare you to watch the Radcliffe exchange without thinking of Stripes (or how oddly choreographed it was) or take the brainwashing at all seriously. πŸ˜‚

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    Very kind of you, CHB, much appreciated! πŸ˜ƒ

  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,140MI6 Agent

    coolhand sez:

    Brilliant, simply brilliant, guys, a lot of work has gone into this and many thanks for giving us a memorable play. I’m going to watch the movie at the weekend and I won’t be able to keep some of these scenes out of my head πŸ˜‚

    glad somebody read it and even enjoyed it!

    @CoolHandBond now you also have to watch this new film called No Time to Die so you can read, and maybe even enjoy, our Nay, Time to Die! spoof (but you must do it in that order as spoilers abound)

    I found from this exercise I was given extra reason to overanalyse the film in extreme detail to see how it worked, and thats a good thing when youre a film-geek living in a vicarious fantasy-world..


    one thing I've been thinking: 'arry's obsession with cooking and shopping for ingredients may foreshadow what we now call foodie culture. But the big scene where he meets Ross in the American style supermarket dates the film. Maybe in 1964 an American style supermarket would be a novelty in postwar Britain where only the hippest shopped. But surely someone who is willing to pay extra for specific ingredients would be shopping at the Farmers Market, not buying mass-produced tins of mushrooms. The "champignons" dialog actually rings false in 2022 when all the cool people who want to spend extra for flavour only buy fresh produce from mom'n'pop organic farmers they know personally. These "American style supermarkets" are now considered the enemy by folks who care about where their food comes from! (and its this sort of tiny detail I spend hours obsessing over, having been required to take the plot apart and put it back together again Elizabethan style)

  • chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 3,636MI6 Agent

    I've been watching the recent TV version of The Ipcress File and while I enjoyed it, the whole IMO didn't live up to the promise of the opening three episodes. There are some major changes from novel to TV - I'll try to temporarily forget the brilliant 1965 version - chiefly a Manchurian Candidate style assassination plot which has nothing to do with Len Deighton's original and a side show about his boss Dalby and a Russian defector which really wasn't necessary. I was disappointed to see this version didn't include Colonel Ross, who was Palmer's boss in the movie and does feature in the novel. Dalby's role is greatly altered to accommodate this and a fresh sub-plot revolving around an avaricious government minister is added instead.

    What did I enjoy? Good performances. Good period feel. Loved the camera angles. The whole thing was a bit too knowing and drawn out, as if the producers want an audience to like it because they were being so clever constructing a sixties timepiece not because they'd actually made something really clever, which it wasn't. Ultimately, too confusing because it had too many side plots; both my Dad and I thought the climax was very poor and rushed considering how much time we'd invested in it. The bearded Russian assassin was crap at his job. We both enjoyed Joe Cole's interpretation of H.P. and the background to his career was interesting and gave his character more depth, but given the thing was billed as a fresh take on Deighton's hero, he didn't seem to be very active in the final episode, until the last ten minutes.

    Overall a good effort. Certainly more watchable that Killing Eve 4, but not a patch on Sidney J. Furie's masterful film version.

  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,999MI6 Agent

    I thought it was really good fun; not a classic but very watchable, like an updated version of an ITC show.

  • HowardBHowardB USAPosts: 2,768MI6 Agent

    Looking forward to seeing this but would love to not have to shell out more monthly fees to stream on Britbox.

  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 7,372MI6 Agent

    As an ex-pat I find BritBox the best value app on my Firestick. There are so many great series and movies on there, dating from the 60’s to new productions, that I would really miss not having it.

    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 3,636MI6 Agent
    edited April 25

    OK, so, back in March 2022 I mentioned on this thread that I must get around to reading Len Deighton as he was on my "to do" list. Well, he's finally reached the top of that list, so here is the first "to do":

    There are lots of cover illustrations for The Ipcress File, many with Michael Caine's image on them, but I like Harper's 2009 montage series, chiefly because they remind me of the brilliant and rarely seen early seventies Pan OO7 montage series...

    THE IPCRESS FILE (1962)

    The world was crying out for new secret agents in the mid-1960s. Ian Fleming’s James Bond had cornered the market and with the advent of the film series the potential for more blood and thunder on both celluloid and paper was almost insatiable. Charles Hood, Hugo Baron, Jason Love, Modesty Blaise and the returning Bulldog Drummond all made bows in this era. John Le Carre delivered the serious stuff with George Smiley and thriller authors as differing as Victor Canning and James Hadley Chase attempted to cut new teeth in the market. Predating almost all of these was Len Deighton’s unnamed hero of The Ipcress File.

    Harry Palmer was given his moniker by actor Michael Caine and Harry Saltzman who famously decided on the dullest name they could think of over a bottle of Chablis in a top class restaurant as the Bond producer floated the idea of a new spy film series to the suddenly in vogue London star. Deighton, whose debut novel this is, never ventured a name for his protagonist, which is a fun little ruse but one that barely matters to the story other than to suspend your disbelief that anyone could go so long without a single acquaintance, particularly his superiors, calling him by name.

    The Ipcress File is a sporadically brilliant but predominantly baffling espionage thriller that inhabits a world some way away from James Bond and his like. It is a gritty, every day experience about a spy – he hates the word agent, preferring operative – who uncovers treachery among the highest echelons of the British Secret Service. How he uncovers this betrayal takes an awfully long and convoluted narrative involving trips to Beirut for a prisoner exchange and another to a Pacific atoll to witness a nuclear bomb test. There are plenty of trips on London buses and a stint of torture in a suburban semi-detached. If I am being brutally honest, the film condenses the novel’s plot and locations brilliantly. The more expansive novel meanders too much. In fact, unlike the powerful, incisive scenes of cinematic pursuit, psychedelic torture and ultimate villainous unveiling, Deighton’s novel provides a first person narrative of startling personal persuasion, but one that lacks any sense of tension. What is there, such as it is, comes laced with so much flabby humour, observational asides and satirical winks at the reader that it is almost impossible to take ‘Palmer’ [or whoever he is] remotely seriously.

    One of the beauties of the film version is how Michael Caine portrays the everyman spy, his pretentions, failings and antiauthoritarian nature on display at every turn. The literary ‘Palmer’ isn’t doing well for himself, but he isn’t so outwardly bolshy as Caine’s turn. The witticisms fall thick, fast and frequently. A few complaints about his back pay and expenses and that’s about the most we get of the uppity, ex-military man. He isn’t given much support. Even more than Ian Fleming’s silhouette of a spy, ‘Palmer’ is a man alone, intimately judging people for their usefulness, responding physically but unemotionally to them, preferring to err cautiously towards prudent non-action. When he does act, it tends not to go well, hence ‘Palmer’ reserves most affection for an envelope of false identities which he mails to himself once a week in case of emergencies. There is a distinct air of isolation surrounding ‘Palmer’ and his loose, almost lazy, espionage style. This man really does need to work alone. Thus, people wheel in and out of ‘Palmer’s life like bullets from a gun, and often with similarly fatal results.

    Deighton’s clear love of his character is evident. He also loves a conundrum and this one is only haphazardly clarified by a closing chapter or two where all the loose ends are neatly tied up, including some explanatory sentences that are clearly guess work. The whole book is a monologue of sorts, given the introductory chapter, but ‘Palmer’ is in fact reciting an explanation within his explanation and that just seems bizarre. The novel has the unique notion of providing an appendix full of detailed information about characters, historical events and spy-jargon. I found this intensely annoying as I had to read these mid-action, sometimes interrupting the flow of a decent scene. Quite what Deighton is attempting to prove other than his own obsequiousness is unclear, for almost every one of the appendices could have been inserted adequately into the standing narrative; some are not even necessary.

    So, what’s of interest? Well, I enjoyed the observational stuff, the attention to unusual objects or characteristics, the product placements, the political or sociological asides. The smatterings of action were vivid but curtailed. The torture scene is exceedingly old fashioned and rather realistic because of it. ‘Palmer’s manner comes across very well, peppering his speech and the descriptive prose with a sly working-class educated wit. The Beirut section makes narrative sense and works well in terms of joining the dots of the plot. What doesn’t work is the faffing about in the Pacific. This whole sequence of events needlessly introduces the Americans as an interested party in the British leaks, and is done to highlight the potential traitor – except ‘Palmer’ has already uncovered him, but ignores the clue. Deighton is basically time-wasting here, or paper wasting as it were; in fact there is nothing that happens in the Pacific which couldn’t happen in the UK. The movie demonstrates that perfectly well. Perhaps the author felt the need to globe trot like the famous Mr Bond. If so, it is a misguided feeling. ‘Palmer’s very existence hinges on his affable home-based personality, reflected in what he witnesses and how he behaves in the climate of London and the UK. Take him away from those arenas and his ironical humour becomes redundant and his actions less relevant to homeland security. Once we embark on the longwinded explanations clues begin to materialise from thin air and the foreign jaunt feels out of place and unsatisfactory: I want my hero to be discovering all this information, not learning it post-event by proxy or to a mild good guess.

    The Sunday Times of the day described Deighton as ‘The poet of the spy story’ which is nice and well reflects the realist prose. Indeed if anything is memorable about the book, it is Deighton’s elevated rhetoric, which remains dry and detached, yet is packed full of all those close details we recognise as being in the secret agent’s eye, ear, nose and thought. What ‘Palmer’ sees, hears, scents and rationalises is far more layered than the actual action, which while confused, doesn’t really do very much: ‘Palmer’ is hunting a top-level fixer codenamed Jay who may be responsible for the disappearance of a series of top-level scientists; everything else is peripheral. Deighton doesn’t even bother to explicitly explain the title of the novel until the very end.

    I didn’t not enjoy The Ipcress File. It has a pacey feel, despite the awkwardness of the structure, and the main character is believable and rather lovable, identified as a working man’s man with aspirations beyond his station. The book lacks a cutting edge for me. The esoteric bad guys do not aid our response to the tight situations ‘Palmer’ finds himself in. The threat to the nation is as obscure as ‘Palmer’s real name and that’s a great pity for the story has some interest some of the time, but not enough for 270-odd pages.     

      

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    That's an exceedingly well written review, @chrisno1, This isn't my favourite "Palmer" book or film and I think you've caught why. Still Deighton's actual writing is enough to keep the reader going IMHO. Did it leave you looking forward to the next one, "Horse Under Water", or not?

  • chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 3,636MI6 Agent

    @Barbel Well, I have a copy...

  • emtiememtiem SurreyPosts: 5,999MI6 Agent

    I really struggled with Horse. I'm not sure how it could have become a film.

  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,140MI6 Agent

    a good honest subjective review! is this book fun to read? well, in places it is a bit like doing homework. (spoiler: he gets more conventional in the sequels)

    I found it helped to remember Deighton is coming from a graphic arts background, and this is his first novel, so maybe he's thinking in terms of clever experimental methods from Modern Art. Fleming on the other hand was a journalist. Fleming already knew exactly how to tell a story that would involve the reader while delivering the crucial information, he just shifted those skills from nonfiction to fiction.

    but all thats background context, external to the story Deightons supposed to be telling, just as irrelevant as those Appendices you objected to. So what I'm really wondering now, is, how did you ever deal with Lord of the Rings or Dune?

  • chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 3,636MI6 Agent

    HORSE UNDER WATER (1963)

    This is the Len Deighton ‘Harry Palmer’ book Harry Saltzman didn’t make a movie out of, which is a pity as for most of its length Horse Under Water is a fun an interesting read.

    ‘Harry Palmer’ decamps to the Portugal and becomes embroiled in the hunt for a secret diary revealing codenames of Nazi war criminals, the tricky bit being the book is hidden somewhere on a sunken U-Boat at the mouth of the Mediterranean. His task is complicated by the presence of a series of jocular and sinister locals, the import-export American Harry Kondit, the politician Da Cunha and the shifty fisherman Fernie Tomas. For support ‘Harry Palmer’ has the delectable Charley, his erstwhile officious boss Dawlish and two expert frogmen in Joe Singleton and Giorgio Olivettini. Thing is, while there may be a secret code book, the divers also discover clues to an altogether more modern danger, one that involves narcotics, curency forgeries and extortion and appears to shoot right for the corrupt heart of British government.

    The first half of the novel is splendidly enjoyable, as is the sudden input of action towards the end, for there intrigue and danger pursue ‘Palmer’ at every turn. Where the novel does itself no favours is in involving a subplot surrounding a Home Office committee known as the Strutton Plan that has no relevance to the overall scheme of things, and the subsequent scenes set in London. ‘Palmer’ and his associates spend several chapters jetting backwards and forwards between Lisbon and London. ‘Palmer’ discovers an awful lot of detail about his likely enemies back in Blighty and this rather dulls the exotic nature and building tension that surrounds the underwater dives to the stricken submarine. There is no necessity for Deighton to do this. Firstly, it stretches the time frame of the whole adventure, losing momentum and suspense. Secondly, London and its characters are not as interesting as those in Albufeira. Thirdly, the back-and-forth nature of the mid-story narrative becomes tiresomely repetitive. The novel perks up in the final quarter, although three long winded explanations of the villains’ motives and personal histories feels like one too many. The last reveal is set in Marrakesh, where the whole novel kicked off with ‘Palmer’ concluding a financial asset swap with the Moroccan government. I am still asking myself what a spy is doing concluding financial dealings, but of course ‘Palmer’ prefers not to be called a spy; he sees himself as an ‘operative’ and seems to be working for a division of the Treasury, although Deighton never makes this explicitly clear.

    The author is also spartan on ‘Palmer’s background. We learn now that he is a Second World War veteran, wears glasses and is putting on weight. He still has affection for his secretary, Jean, but this doesn’t stop him sharing intimacies with Charley, who seems to prefer older, damaged and bedraggled men to young, stiff whippersnappers. ‘Palmer’ has lost none of his acute and wry observations, but while he doesn’t get along with his boss, or any kind of authority figure, he comes across as much more of an establishment figure than he did in The Ipcress File. He has an important position in the WOOC (P) department, is responsible for hiring and firing, report presentation, cross party negotiation and foreign investigation. He has a generous expense account. He speaks several languages adequately. While ‘Palmer’ still retains a nice line in cynicism, it is more difficult to sympathise with his slightly anarchist attitudes when he so clearly works within the parameters laid down by the hierarchy. For instance, Dawlish is convinced to sanction ‘Palmer’s plans with a few neat lines of office persuasion; Deighton’s hero doesn’t go out on a limb – as perhaps even James Bond does in novels such as You Only Live Twice and Goldfinger, or a short story like The Hildebrand Rarity – ‘Palmer’ retains his position and concludes his actions in the proper, efficient, establishment fashion. There is no great gunbattle or fight to climax Horse Under Water; instead ‘Harry Palmer’ reads two water damaged handwritten letters lifted from the wreckage of the U-Boat which solidify his furtive doubts.

    Overall, Horse Under Water is a decent follow up to The Ipcress File. I think a good screenwriter would have made much of it, chiefly relocating the whole thing to Portugal, and there are enough [brief] thrills to provide the prerequisite expected cinematic action.

    A quick note on the title. ‘Horse’ is apparently a slang term for cocaine, although it isn’t one I have heard. Perhaps it is now defunct slang.

    A quick note on the text. Len Deighton again utilises appendices, six of them, which again interfere with the narrative. As I am not reading a Whitehall report of ‘Palmer’s activities but a novelisation of them, I don’t see the point of these. Unique in the opening novel of the series, they feel extremely redundant here. Deighton also includes 58 one word alternative chapter headings which I only occasionally understood. The novel is preceded, before even the title page, by quotes and letters and telegrams which, while having some bearing on the plot, are unnecessary. The letter typed on House of Westminster headed paper is actually replicated inside the text of the book. This fancy-dan style of writing just annoys me. Deighton doesn’t need to be so obviously clever, he is intelligent enough as a writer already, and these excerpts just stink of a man showing off.     

    A quick verdict: Above average.   

      

  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 38,103Chief of Staff

    @chrisno1 - "horse" = heroin, rather than cocaine.

    I'm glad your feelings about this book mirror mine - it's not just me that found the Strutton part of the story unnecessary.

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