1. Don't reveal S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'s plan until much later in the film so the story has more tension.
2. Cut the length of the underwater battles near the climax.
3. Either cut superfluous characters, like Paula, or given them the screen time they deserve so, in this example, we feel the loss of her death. I'd also like more time with Domino so we understand her motivations more.
I think with Thunderball I'd change Spectre's plan: someone who is going to set off a nuke is scarier than someone who might set off a nuke if you don't pay them (do they even consider paying up?). I'd also put Bond right where the bomb is due to go off: putting our hero in direct danger is more thrilling than the bomb being thousands of miles away: it's how the previous film had it after all.
I think I'd also change it to make Fiona the main baddie: she's way better onscreen than Largo and there's actually some emotion when her and Bond are together. Have Largo think he's leading the ransom plot only for Fiona to reveal Spectre have a much more evil plot in mind and are doublecrossing him.
I'd have the film just be more crazy and colourful in general. Compared to Goldfinger all of the big, cartoony elements have gone and the whole story is a bit duller and more conventional.
Thunderball sometimes has the air of a victory parade - let's do the same thing again, only happy and secure - and with nobs on!
It's also a bit perfunctory because EON were bounced into doing it to stop McClory having a rival movie raining on their parade.
On top of which, the plot is a problem because - and they were to resolve this with YOLT and TSWLM - it lacks a sub-plot of substance. If you're not really into underwater action and the villain's plot, it's a sitting duck or lame duck cos that's all there is. In YOLT it deals as much with Bond's culture clash with the Far East, more in fact than it does with space capsules, likewise TSWLM is as much about the tension between MI6 and the Soviet Union and Triple X as it is about missing submarines - these pull off the trick of soap operas in that they have two plots going on at the same time, neither of which by themselves may be that interesting. TB doesn't have that though it chooses instead to be two separate movies almost, one north of Paris and at Shrublands, the other in Nassau.
The killing of Domino's brother is sort of a sub plot but belongs in a melodrama, a 1950s film.
Yeah, it is a 1950s plot, ultimately. Goldfinger had pushed into the 60s, but TB went backwards rather. It's a very good point about the sub-plot: it's very simplistic. I'd like to see a version which adapts the book with the same sense of craziness and wit that they added to GF and YOLT.
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
the video game duel is certainly a crazier evolution from the oldschool card games, but personally is the most awkward part of the film for me
on the positive side, the hijacking of the missiles is far more visual and fun to watch than the equivalent scene in Thunderball
I agree Paula's character is so underdeveloped to be almost pointless, even her sacrificial lamb sequence is a digression that makes little narrative sense. Also Fiona is indeed more interesting than both Domino and Largo.
I keep meaning to add more to this thread, but I want to go in chronological order, and I cant think of a single thing I'd change in From Russia with Love. I can see why @IcePak just skips ahead to the fourth film
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
I guess it does, but it's fitting into the 70s/80s mould of Bond films by then, with the horse chase and gadget motorcycle etc.
I suppose I just would have liked to have a version of TB which fits a bit more with GF or YOLT. There isn't even a crazy lair! Give me an evil underwater dome or sinister submarine or something. And the henchman's quirk is literally that he doesn't do anything interesting. What do you do, Vargas?
Steal the Vulcan and land it on an airstrip which rises out of the sea, seal it in a dome under the water so Fiona can try to fly it away at the climax of the film. I dunno, something like that.
Well, there have been various screenplays over the years, and most fall into the trap - Warhead in particular - of ramping it up to excess but again, with no sub plot or nuance, it's hard to get behind it. I liked your improvements emtiem actually. TSWLM was likely intended to shoot McClory's fox a bit, being an underwater Bond film - but it had not only a sub plot but snow and desert, in case you don't take to that. NSNA did none of that, there's little visual variety. I'd have had Shrublands as maybe a Swiss spa set near a NATO air base, just to offer something different - but they were unclear whether they were remaking the novel or the film, and how far they could deviate from either.
I find it funny that NSNA switches location from the Bahamas to the South of France- I doubt many people even noticed because a tropical town by the sea in the sunshine (with pretty much exclusively white faces) looks much like a Mediterranean town by the sea in the sunshine on the big screen!
I like the idea of the Swiss spa, that's lots of fun. One of those swimming pools outside in the snow, maybe a ski chase, great! When folks talk about The Rock starring Connery as Bond in everything but name who had been locked up in that famous prison, that made me imagine another TB remake around that time, with Bond having been imprisoned in HMP Shrublands and spotting something fishy about his fellow inmate Count Lippe!
I liked your improvements emtiem actually.
Thank you- I like yours too! Okay: here's my villain's plan for TB- Spectre say they're holding London and Washington to ransom, but unbeknownst to Largo the plan is actually to drop all of the bombs on the west side of the Bahamas regardless using the Vulcan: the resulting tidal wave destroys the coasts of both Miami and Cuba (Spectre have no affiliation to East nor West), and Spectre's legitimate real estate and construction arms are posed to sweep in and buy up the destroyed areas and rebuild them to enormous profit. Largo, as someone who lives in the Bahamas, is appalled- his job was basically just to protect the bombs until they go off in his face. The ransom was only ever an attempt to make some extra money.
Fiona works more directly for Number One, and when Bond uncovers the plan and Largo finds out, he rebels and she kills Largo. She tries to make a getaway in the Vulcan, taking off from the rising underwater runway, but 007 stops the plane and Domino kills her, getting revenge for her brother (don't forget Fiona was more responsible for that than Largo was- which is a weird bit of non-logic in the film!).
For me, the way it's portrayed just seems out of character. Bond was someone who always found a way out of a situation and while I appreciate why he's doing it, just giving up without even trying feels wrong to me.
Yes, several people have remarked that “Bond always found a way”….I’m probably swimming against the tide, but I love the fact Bond dies at the end…it’s what DC wanted, and I’m happy enough they did it…doesn’t mean the franchise has ended - although it does give that appearance at the moment 👀 - and I wouldn’t want Bond to die again anytime soon…
Comments
TB
1. Don't reveal S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'s plan until much later in the film so the story has more tension.
2. Cut the length of the underwater battles near the climax.
3. Either cut superfluous characters, like Paula, or given them the screen time they deserve so, in this example, we feel the loss of her death. I'd also like more time with Domino so we understand her motivations more.
I think with Thunderball I'd change Spectre's plan: someone who is going to set off a nuke is scarier than someone who might set off a nuke if you don't pay them (do they even consider paying up?). I'd also put Bond right where the bomb is due to go off: putting our hero in direct danger is more thrilling than the bomb being thousands of miles away: it's how the previous film had it after all.
I think I'd also change it to make Fiona the main baddie: she's way better onscreen than Largo and there's actually some emotion when her and Bond are together. Have Largo think he's leading the ransom plot only for Fiona to reveal Spectre have a much more evil plot in mind and are doublecrossing him.
I'd have the film just be more crazy and colourful in general. Compared to Goldfinger all of the big, cartoony elements have gone and the whole story is a bit duller and more conventional.
Thunderball sometimes has the air of a victory parade - let's do the same thing again, only happy and secure - and with nobs on!
It's also a bit perfunctory because EON were bounced into doing it to stop McClory having a rival movie raining on their parade.
On top of which, the plot is a problem because - and they were to resolve this with YOLT and TSWLM - it lacks a sub-plot of substance. If you're not really into underwater action and the villain's plot, it's a sitting duck or lame duck cos that's all there is. In YOLT it deals as much with Bond's culture clash with the Far East, more in fact than it does with space capsules, likewise TSWLM is as much about the tension between MI6 and the Soviet Union and Triple X as it is about missing submarines - these pull off the trick of soap operas in that they have two plots going on at the same time, neither of which by themselves may be that interesting. TB doesn't have that though it chooses instead to be two separate movies almost, one north of Paris and at Shrublands, the other in Nassau.
The killing of Domino's brother is sort of a sub plot but belongs in a melodrama, a 1950s film.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Yeah, it is a 1950s plot, ultimately. Goldfinger had pushed into the 60s, but TB went backwards rather. It's a very good point about the sub-plot: it's very simplistic. I'd like to see a version which adapts the book with the same sense of craziness and wit that they added to GF and YOLT.
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
the video game duel is certainly a crazier evolution from the oldschool card games, but personally is the most awkward part of the film for me
on the positive side, the hijacking of the missiles is far more visual and fun to watch than the equivalent scene in Thunderball
I agree Paula's character is so underdeveloped to be almost pointless, even her sacrificial lamb sequence is a digression that makes little narrative sense. Also Fiona is indeed more interesting than both Domino and Largo.
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I keep meaning to add more to this thread, but I want to go in chronological order, and I cant think of a single thing I'd change in From Russia with Love. I can see why @IcePak just skips ahead to the fourth film
do any of the elements in Never Say Never Again address the need for more crazy kooky cartooniness?
I guess it does, but it's fitting into the 70s/80s mould of Bond films by then, with the horse chase and gadget motorcycle etc.
I suppose I just would have liked to have a version of TB which fits a bit more with GF or YOLT. There isn't even a crazy lair! Give me an evil underwater dome or sinister submarine or something. And the henchman's quirk is literally that he doesn't do anything interesting. What do you do, Vargas?
Steal the Vulcan and land it on an airstrip which rises out of the sea, seal it in a dome under the water so Fiona can try to fly it away at the climax of the film. I dunno, something like that.
Well, there have been various screenplays over the years, and most fall into the trap - Warhead in particular - of ramping it up to excess but again, with no sub plot or nuance, it's hard to get behind it. I liked your improvements emtiem actually. TSWLM was likely intended to shoot McClory's fox a bit, being an underwater Bond film - but it had not only a sub plot but snow and desert, in case you don't take to that. NSNA did none of that, there's little visual variety. I'd have had Shrublands as maybe a Swiss spa set near a NATO air base, just to offer something different - but they were unclear whether they were remaking the novel or the film, and how far they could deviate from either.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I find it funny that NSNA switches location from the Bahamas to the South of France- I doubt many people even noticed because a tropical town by the sea in the sunshine (with pretty much exclusively white faces) looks much like a Mediterranean town by the sea in the sunshine on the big screen!
I like the idea of the Swiss spa, that's lots of fun. One of those swimming pools outside in the snow, maybe a ski chase, great! When folks talk about The Rock starring Connery as Bond in everything but name who had been locked up in that famous prison, that made me imagine another TB remake around that time, with Bond having been imprisoned in HMP Shrublands and spotting something fishy about his fellow inmate Count Lippe!
I liked your improvements emtiem actually.
Thank you- I like yours too! Okay: here's my villain's plan for TB- Spectre say they're holding London and Washington to ransom, but unbeknownst to Largo the plan is actually to drop all of the bombs on the west side of the Bahamas regardless using the Vulcan: the resulting tidal wave destroys the coasts of both Miami and Cuba (Spectre have no affiliation to East nor West), and Spectre's legitimate real estate and construction arms are posed to sweep in and buy up the destroyed areas and rebuild them to enormous profit. Largo, as someone who lives in the Bahamas, is appalled- his job was basically just to protect the bombs until they go off in his face. The ransom was only ever an attempt to make some extra money.
Fiona works more directly for Number One, and when Bond uncovers the plan and Largo finds out, he rebels and she kills Largo. She tries to make a getaway in the Vulcan, taking off from the rising underwater runway, but 007 stops the plane and Domino kills her, getting revenge for her brother (don't forget Fiona was more responsible for that than Largo was- which is a weird bit of non-logic in the film!).
I too like the three suggestions for TB. the comments about the locations make a lot of sense too.
For me, the way it's portrayed just seems out of character. Bond was someone who always found a way out of a situation and while I appreciate why he's doing it, just giving up without even trying feels wrong to me.
8. TSWLM 9. TND 10. LtK 11. SF 12. TMwtGG 13. AVtaK 14. NTtD
15. GF 16. MR 17. LaLD 18. YOLT 19. DN 20. SP 21. TWiNE
22. TB 23. DAD 24. QoS 25. DaF
It's the worst misstep in a film not short on missteps.
There is nothing he can do, and to even try would be to risk the lives of his family. It’s all very well-sown up.
Yes, several people have remarked that “Bond always found a way”….I’m probably swimming against the tide, but I love the fact Bond dies at the end…it’s what DC wanted, and I’m happy enough they did it…doesn’t mean the franchise has ended - although it does give that appearance at the moment 👀 - and I wouldn’t want Bond to die again anytime soon…