TMWTGG - Bottoms Up Club
SeanIsTheOnlyOne
Posts: 503MI6 Agent
I made a mistake and created this topic in the wrong section (NTTD). I put it at the right place. [The other one has now been deleted. Barbel]
The fact M never tells Bond about Hip is a little bit disturbing. If M had simply told Bond the local contact of MI6 was supposed to meet Gibson at Bottoms Up Club in the evening, then Bond could have made the link between Scaramanga and Gibson. I know Scaramanga and the Solex are supposed to be two separate cases but the opposite works: if Bond had communicated with M after his meeting with Miss Anders, then M could have made this link too.
One can guess it would have been much more difficult for Scaramanga to kill Gibson with Bond, M and Hip well-informed and prepared. After all, Bond probably had to keep in touch with M anyway, especially considering he's in Hong Kong on Scaramanga's trail.
Does anyone see my point ?
Comments
Why was M in such a bad mood in TMWTGG ?
I see your point but when an agent travels from one country to another, his superior should know about it. M could have told Bond he would be in Hong Kong himself. Furthermore, isn't Bond supposed to know the name of the local contact of station H ? After all, he's still on active service...
The screenwriters wanted to create suspense when Bond is arrested by Hip but it doesn't work plotwise and the total absence of communication gives the impression of incompetence.
I know it's got its admirers (God knows why), but TMWTGG has always been a bottom-rung Bond film for me--and it's for reasons like the one you point out (to add to it, why do Hip and his nieces drive away, leaving Bond alone among the enemy?). The script seems to be an excuse to move Bond to the next set piece or stunt.
It's me again )))
M removes Bond from the Gibson case and suggests he takes a sabbatical so Bond's actions in Beirut and his meeting with Lazar are done entirely in Bond's freetime outside the scope of MI6's operations. Only when Bond leaves Macau does it seem he is on "official duty" again as Goodnight says when they meet in Hong Kong that "Your signal from Macau only just reached the office". Bond also later says to Goodnight that he first has a little official business to attend to outside the hotel.
I don't think M would need to fill Bond in on who else in the area since Bond was not assigned to the Gibson case. The less agents know about what else is going on the better since if they are ever captured and tortured, they wouldn't spill any unnecessary information.
Hip also possibly doesn't know where he will meet Gibson later that evening until very short notice.
I think a lot of the characters seem to be quite irate with each other. This might have been down to the direction by Guy Hamilton to bring out the actors' frustrations as it seems the whole cast and crew were in a foul mood during most of the filming from what I gathered from the making-of documentary and other rumours I heard about the film.
The shooting deadline was incredibly narrow as this was the first Bond film to be shot and released the following year from the previous film for the first time since Thunderball in 1965. The script was also still being written as key scenes were being shot and the cast often had to give up their free days to shoot newly re-written scenes.
@sinlum hi again !
Hip still not knowing where he'll meet Gibson while Bond already is Hong Kong is possible, but how did Scaramanga know where to find Gibson this evening ?
This could have worked if Hai Fat had sent someone supposed to conclude a deal with Gibson for the Solex. But it doesn't seem to be the case, unless I missed something.
It is revealed later in the film that Hai Fat was the one who paid Scaramanga to take out Gibson. Hip also later says that he was meeting him in the bar as Gibson wanted to bargain for immunity as it is implied Gibson was working for Hai Fat.
It's possible that Hai Fat got wind of what Gibson was trying to do and so arranged Scaramanga to take out Gibson when he was at the Bottoms Up club. Hai Fat could have looked through Gibson's calendar and tapped his phone calls to find out when and where he was going to meet to negotiate his defection.
Hai Fat would then relay the information to Scaramanga to set up his assassination. Scaramanga's plan is simply to wait outside until Gibson leaves and then assassinate him in the street which is what he ultimately does.
Perhaps to change what I originally wrote about Hip - maybe Hip does know of the appointment well in advance but he doesn't know who exactly he is meeting. All he may have been getting were anonymous phone calls from Gibson stating that he would be willing to meet up because he had secret info to share. All Gibson would say in the lead up is that he would be in the club on Date X at Time X and would sit at table X with a cigarette in his hand. Hai Fat however is able to intercept all the info and passes it onto Scaramanga to arrange the assassination.
Interesting, but how would Hai Fat get this kind of information ? He's just a businessman. Powerful and rich, yes, but a businessman. Learning about events involving british agents is not supposed to be something he can afford, not forgetting M surely reminded Hip to be very careful and to make sure the place of the meeting remains top secret.
Maibaum and Mankiewicz tried to create suspense with Gibson's death and Bond being arrested by someone whose real function will be revealed later. I just think it doesn't work here. But like @Hardyboy said, TMWTGG is neither the most thrilling Bond film nor the strongest plotwise. So why bother after all ?
Hai Fat probably doesn't know that Gibson is dealing with British agents. He probably only finds out that Gibson is wanting to give up the solar cell data to another party and therefore arranges to have him executed once he knows that Gibson will be meeting at the Bottoms Up club. Hip possibly doesn't know he is dealing with Gibson directly until he meets him in the club.
So in summary, Hai Fat arranges to have Gibson killed unaware that the MI6 are involved and Hip is not sure if the man he is meeting in the club is really Gibson until he turns up at the club.
You wrote "M surely reminded Hip to be very careful and to make sure the place of the meeting remains top secret." This is exactly what Hip does, but in order to meet Gibson, he would probably have to go to the venue that Gibson chooses and not the other way around. Hip doesn't mention anything to Bond since Bond was not part of the Gibson assignment and Hip probably thinks it is better that Bond speaks to his superior about the whole incident first before revealing himself to Bond.
It is mentioned in the making-of documentary that the story of the film was never finalised before shooting started and so many aspects of the story were being rewritten while the film was in production. I speculate that Broccoli and Salzman were desperate to establish Moore as Bond and so the idea of making another Bond film as quick as possible would help to cement Moore as the current Bond. This was also due to the fact that McClory was preparing to put his production of a new Thunderball in motion once 1975 arrived so there would be a rival Bond film on the horizon in the upcoming years.
The hastiness in Brocolli and Salzmann's vision to fast track TMWTGG led to their relationship breaking down and a film that is often cited as one of the worst in the series.
Hai Fat probably doesn't know that Gibson is dealing with British agents. He probably only finds out that Gibson is wanting to give up the solar cell data to another party and therefore arranges to have him executed once he knows that Gibson will be meeting at the Bottoms Up club.H
Once again, how does Scaramanga know where to find Gibson and when ? Is there anything in the plot suggesting Hai Fat knows about it ? Does Scaramanga have to find him only with such a few pieces of information ?
'Hey Francisco, your target is in Hong Kong. I want the job done tomorrow. Good luck.' 😂😂😂
I already explained above that Hai Fat possibly knows already that Gibson is arranging to meet in the Bottom's Up club with another party to discuss his defection. Hai Fat probably already knows that Gibson will be at the club on evening X at time X. So he just gives this information to Scaramanga.
'Hey Francisco, your target is in Hong Kong. I want the job done tomorrow. Good luck.' 😂😂😂 - However you like. It is never explained in the film how Hai Fat establishes contact with Scaramanga in the first place. And when you start going down the questioning rabbit hole you can start to question pretty much anything about anything and the whole concept of the film starts to get ridiculous:
How does Scaramanga get paid? How does Hai Fat know he is dealing with Scaramanga if there is no public record of what he looks like? Why doesn't Hai Fat just bump off Gibson another way so he can save his 1 million dollars? Why don't MI6 lure a trap to kill Scaramanga after they suspect he is going to kill Bond? ........ 😱😱😱
Hai Fat probably already knows that Gibson will be at the club on evening X at time X.
@sinlum it's this part I have a big issue with. How could Hai Fat possibly know such a thing ? He asks Gibson his schedule for the next three months ???
As I wrote earlier:
Hai Fat could have looked through Gibson's calendar and tapped his phone calls to find out when and where he was going to meet to negotiate his defection.
However it is never explained in the film and it is just my possible explanation to fill in the missing plot points. All we know is that Gibson is meeting Hip in the bar and Scaramanga is outside ready to take out Gibson after being requested by Hai Fat.
I hardly imagine Hai Fat searching in Gibson's jacket while the guy is in the bathroom because the curry was too spicy. And tapping phone calls is not the easiest thing to do when you're a simple thai businessman.
But somehow, I admire your imagination.
Reading this thread, I can't understand what all the fuss is about. Hai Fat is a multimillionaire businessman with a shady centre ["Take him to school" - what else but a lethal martial arts training centre where justice comes via the sword?] So of course he will have people able to trace Scaramanga, able to trace Gibson, etc. This doesn't need to be explained, the relationship between the two men and its latent antagonism is clear in the two brief scenes they share. How we got there is implicit in the action and that is all we need to know.
Now, I agree that Bond seems to have ceased being on "leave" when he arrives in Hong Kong. So, yes, you would think Hip would introduce himself properly. I haven't watched TMWTGG for a while but my memory is that Bond shows little surprise the MI6 Station is on the Queen Elizabeth. I mean, why would he jump on it in the first place? Although you must ask why the police launch steers so close to the wreck. It is a cute series of scenes, although one feels they are necessay only to deceive the audience, not Bond.
Regards how Hip knows Gibson is at the Bottoms Up club, I can only refer to M's caustic comment in DAF : "We do work in your absence, OO7." Hip following up the Solex case sits fine with me.
M is in a bad mood because Tom Mankiewicz writes OO7 as if he's a total smug smart arse and Moore plays him like that in the MI6 scenes. It's a writing error compounded by a directing misfire.
While all this speculation is interesting and detailed, the film does not need any extended explanation. [It is dull enough already]. Audiences should not be spoon-fed all information IMO; our imagination and reasoning should be allowed to flourish - which you do here, right? However, this sort of extraneous detail is what makes SF, SP and NTTD so unexciting. Far better the piecemeal drip feed and open ends of CR and QOS. The world and how its characters percieve it doesn't work to the nth detail.
The time between Diamonds Are Forever and Live and Let Die and the time between Live and Let Die and The Man with the Golden Gun were exactly the same: 18 months. (It was the same between Thunderball and You Only Live Twice as well). Was the production time shorter for Golden Gun than for Live and Let Die?
You are indeed correct Matt S. It has always been in my subconscious that TMWTGG had a tighter production deadline as it was released the next year after LALD but as you quite rightly point out the release dates were at 18 month intervals.
However I am sure that I read somewhere in an "official" Bond book on the making of the films that the production on TMWTGG was rushed as there were problems during the script writing process. I will have to have a search for the source. However as I have read a lot of stuff over the last few decades, I could well have imagined it 😅