OK let's get some context here. Currently in the UK there are just a shade over 3200 people who are suspected of activity actioning terrorism or active members of extreme Muslim groups, We do not have resources to follow all these people, and they are the ones we know about. There are extensive reports running to hundreds of pages on around 1000 of them amd intelligence on all of them. These terrorists currently can't be acted against until they do or have something that implicates them PHYSICALLY so no action is taken.
So Abdul Azuz of 22, Slaughter Street is on the list, has intelligence reports on him and is known to be an active terrorist but is untouchable until he is part of an imminent plot or is found to have bomb making equipment on him or in his property. So next Wednesday he decides today is the day..... No one is watching him as they're are watching 900 different terrorists who seem more active lately. Abdul walks into a primary school which has zero security and blows himself and 30 children up, some of which are outside the fatal percussion range and are killed by being ripped to bits by the nails and ball bearings he packed into his bomb.
Let's rewind a day. next Tuesday morning a specialist judge signs an action order after reading extensive intelligence reports on Abdul, he's satisfied enough by what he's read. later that day a van pulls up outside 22 slaughter Street Abdul arrives home, is positively id'd and is bungled into the van......he's never seen again! Where did he go? .... Who knows, it may be presumed he travelled to Syria to fight for ISIS? who cares? Maybe immediate family. The class of kids would be grateful but they would never know they were 24 hours from death.
There is a lot to what you're saying here. It would require several carefully worded (and very controversial) laws and (I think) the word of more than one judge, but something like this might be neccesery.
I read "never to be seen again" as a deportion.
I don't think it would be thousands and I think the level of intelligence is of such a high
Standard these days, that the right people would get caught.
One example from my own home town recently was a group of " Real IRA" terrorists who
Claimed they were just having a meeting in the house they were arrested in, this excuse
Soon fell apart when it was pointed out that MI5 had, had them bugged for five months.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Yes, it would take very good inteligence to put these people in jail or deport them, not to mention several judges to OK the legal action against them.
Assassinations can only be acceptable if the target is impossible to arrest because he is in tribal area Yemen or IS controled Syria.
OK let's get some context here. Currently in the UK there are just a shade over 3200 people who are suspected of activity actioning terrorism or active members of extreme Muslim groups, We do not have resources to follow all these people, and they are the ones we know about. There are extensive reports running to hundreds of pages on around 1000 of them amd intelligence on all of them. These terrorists currently can't be acted against until they do or have something that implicates them PHYSICALLY so no action is taken.
So Abdul Azuz of 22, Slaughter Street is on the list, has intelligence reports on him and is known to be an active terrorist but is untouchable until he is part of an imminent plot or is found to have bomb making equipment on him or in his property. So next Wednesday he decides today is the day..... No one is watching him as they're are watching 900 different terrorists who seem more active lately. Abdul walks into a primary school which has zero security and blows himself and 30 children up, some of which are outside the fatal percussion range and are killed by being ripped to bits by the nails and ball bearings he packed into his bomb.
Let's rewind a day. next Tuesday morning a specialist judge signs an action order after reading extensive intelligence reports on Abdul, he's satisfied enough by what he's read. later that day a van pulls up outside 22 slaughter Street Abdul arrives home, is positively id'd and is bungled into the van......he's never seen again! Where did he go? .... Who knows, it may be presumed he travelled to Syria to fight for ISIS? who cares? Maybe immediate family. The class of kids would be grateful but they would never know they were 24 hours from death.
There is a lot to what you're saying here. It would require several carefully worded (and very controversial) laws and (I think) the word of more than one judge, but something like this might be neccesery.
I read "never to be seen again" as a deportion.
The intelligence is watertight but intelligence doesn't hold water in court!!
There should be a panel of experienced judges. Who would be available nationally via judges circuit lodges. The terrorist team should be made up of both police and military personnel with little or preferably no family, and only serve for 3 months at a time before recall for debrief and assessment, they would also have impeccable service records and be over 28 years old. They would work alongside all security services and have unprecedented access to all records such as police, tax, social services etc. This "agency" should also be utterly separate from politicians. Certain aspects of this kind of cross service duty already exists, while I was active I worked with police and served a secondment with the customs.
Ultimately we have to ask ourselves and our politicians and our society some very serious and pertinent questions, what's more important? Political correctness or national security? Offending a few or protecting the many? safeguarding our liberties, way of life, freedoms and culture or kowtowing to an aggressive extreme form of an imported and foreign religion?
It's easy to pick fault and disagree with the solutions but no one is giving one that solves this issue. And in my mind when this murderous b*stards slaughtered children they crossed a line and they themselves redrew the battle line.
I would just add that it's the case that the fanatical islamists aren't recruiting via the Internet they are part of everyday society amd are recruiting on the streets and in the mosques. The Muslim community are possibly most responsible for rooting these guys out but they have an us and them mentality. cases such as the Rotherham sex grooming and the current one at Leeds crown court where 29 Muslim men are being prosecuted for grooming, child sex, sexual slavery of vulnerable white girls just adds to this point. I know it all too well from personal experience I'm sorry to say.
How can you possibly reduce the problems with this plan to "political correctness"?
It's a question of the rule of law, the Constitution, human rights.... essentially much of the basis of our civilisation. As horrible as crimes like the recent bombing are, are we really willing to give it up for a system that just might work? What if journalists hear of what's happening - should we give up the freedom of the press too? The freedom of speech? Why don't we just save ourselves time and model our society after Saudi Arabia minus the religion or perhaps DDR?
And what happens when the muslim minority starts suspecting something? I know here in my country some parents, friends, youth club leaders etc. alert the police if they suspect radicalization. That intelligence source will dry up. The animosity and alienisation in some circles will likely rise, even at the suspicion that this program is real. If it ever gets public society might lose a generation of the muslim population.
On a lighter note, why got give them all sex changes. Then send them to a hard line ISIS controlled
Area. When they can get a taste of oppression themselves.
Sadly N24, all this human rights red tape is actually putting people's lives at risk. When it come to rights.
I hold those of innocent kids over a bunch of crazy Fu*ked up, terrorists any day. Unless we make some
Serious changes, these attacks will continue. We have to accept we are at war, it's a question of survival
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Reducing our civilisation to "political correctness" and "red tape"
Do you know terrorism kills very few people in the West?! Traffic accidents kill much more people, so does smoking. But we aren't ready to change our society to stop that, are we? Banning cars or cigarettes wouldn't even be a Constitutional matter in most countries, but no-one suggests that. This about destroying our society to possibly save a very low number of people.
This is depressing. I'm out of this forum for tonight.
How can you possibly reduce the problems with this plan to "political correctness"?
It's a question of the rule of law, the Constitution, human rights.... essentially much of the basis of our civilisation. As horrible as crimes like the recent bombing are, are we really willing to give it up for a system that just might work? What if journalists hear of what's happening - should we give up the freedom of the press too? The freedom of speech? Why don't we just save ourselves time and model our society after Saudi Arabia minus the religion or perhaps DDR?
And what happens when the muslim minority starts suspecting something? I know here in my country some parents, friends, youth club leaders etc. alert the police if they suspect radicalization. That intelligence source will dry up. The animosity and alienisation in some circles will likely rise, even at the suspicion that this program is real. If it ever gets public society might lose a generation of the muslim population.
But why worry? It's only "political correctnes".
Political correctness is an illusion now a very dangerous one. If the authorities suspected a white British male around the age of 35_45 was committing serious crimes and I was stopped and searched multiple times by an Asian policeman would I scream racism, prejudice, alienation. " your only doing this because I'm white "? NO I WOULD NOT!! Political correctness is a a term and mindset conveniently touted when it suits a certain purpose. Amazingly when someone of any colour becomes a victim of certain crimes it goes out the window and cries turn to " why aren't the police and the government doing something about this "
I don't know about Norway but here white British males are the only demographic that it's tolerated can be criticised and had a go at....due to political correctness. Sensibility has no place in a discussion like this.
What is your solution 24?
Reducing our civilisation to "political correctnes" and "red tape"
Do you know terrorism kills very few people in the West?! Traffic accidents kill much more people, so does smoking. But we aren't ready to change our society to stop that, are we? Banning cars or cigarettes wouldn't even be a Constitutional matter in most countries, but no-one suggest that. This about destroying our society to possibly save a very low number of people.
This is depressing. I'm out of this forum for tonight.
Not destroying our society 24. Preserving it and protecting it.
My ideal solution would be to give all those such inclined to ISIS free flights to Syria, Libya etc. They would surrender their passports then we could confront them on a military level on a battlefield. But of course these cowards would rather slaughter children at a pop concert or mow down tourists, or Christmas shoppers or stab ageing clergymen in a church!
Banning cars or cigarettes wouldn't even be a Constitutional matter in most countries, but no-one suggests that. .
I try to keep out of this, but disagree that banning cars would not be a constitutional matter (at least in the UK)- any government that tried that would create more problems than they would solve, even if it were legally possible- which I think it isn't.
Reminds me of Patrick McGoohan saying he would play Bond if he didn't have to sleep with women he wasn't married to, or shoot people. (I can just picture Cubby saying "We'll let you know...")
@chriscoop I realise I am an excessive buzzkill. And female to boot. We can agree to disagree and that is wonderful. I grew up walking distance from the Pentagon. I went to school in the DC sniper's prime area. Walking home from school I would walk in a zigzag because in my head it would make it harder to shoot me. The government actually checked all of the cars that matched the description of their car and put stickers on the ones that have been checked so you wouldn't panic (turns out it was not a white van.) I would religiously look for those stickers and in a really sick turn of events my whole family and I would go shopping after he'd killed someone because we felt like we were safe.
I myself was stabbed while at school, then later was sexually assaulted. My grandmother grew up in a concentration camp because she was Roma, AKA Gypsy, and that's where several of my family members died. I only say this because much of my life has been defined buy violence because I am female, Roma and grew up in NOVA.
I realize my education is limited and I have no idea what it's like in other parts of the world. I read extensive military history memoirs and I cannot even imagine what it is like in the UK. What I've learned from reading, is that I cannot even begin to understand what's going on. At the same time I feel like many of these events ever made me see the world in a different way from other people my age.
All I can do is reflect on my own experience. I know that we are not to get too political, (I'm very sorry barbell and please feel free to delete this) but the one thing that I held out hope for is some level of political correctness. I, for whatever it's worth, hold on to political correctness and those freedoms. I know the only reason why my father is not dead is because he was picking me up at a dentist appointment on 9/11. At the time he had an office that was on the outside of the building and I know for sure he would have been dead because... sorry... I cannot go to that place.
I know there so many evil people. But I genuinely feel like if we persecute people because of race, religion or color we are no better than the enemy. Again, I say this knowing my limitations. I never want anyone to experience on my grandmother did, Growing Up in a concentration camp. And maybe it has excessively naive but I think it is worth it to let people live with their freedoms. Then again, whatever it's worth I know what it is like to lose a part of yourself because of evil. And frankly I think it's worth it and others might disagree and that is just fine.
My understanding was that you were in the military, and I cannot truly comprehend what that was like. And I think it's lovely that you served. And I'm aware that whatever I say is absolutely trite and I know that your thoughts and feelings are valid. Anyway I thought I'd share. Again, sorry Barbell. I respect you and this site greatly.
Apology not required, Vesper.
My problem with political threads is that sooner or later they end up with personal attacks. The thread gets closed, re-opened with promises that it won't happen again, the cycle repeats...
Now I know that isn't going to happen in this case because Cbriscoop is too nice a fellow to start slinging insults at you or anyone else, and the thread has been free from such despite dealing with heavy matters. Obviously we can't all agree on everything, but we can disagree in a polite way.
@chriscoop I realise I am an excessive buzzkill. And female to boot. We can agree to disagree and that is wonderful. I grew up walking distance from the Pentagon. I went to school in the DC sniper's prime area. Walking home from school I would walk in a zigzag because in my head it would make it harder to shoot me. The government actually checked all of the cars that matched the description of their car and put stickers on the ones that have been checked so you wouldn't panic (turns out it was not a white van.) I would religiously look for those stickers and in a really sick turn of events my whole family and I would go shopping after he'd killed someone because we felt like we were safe.
I myself was stabbed while at school, then later was sexually assaulted. My grandmother grew up in a concentration camp because she was Roma, AKA Gypsy, and that's where several of my family members died. I only say this because much of my life has been defined buy violence because I am female, Roma and grew up in NOVA.
I realize my education is limited and I have no idea what it's like in other parts of the world. I read extensive military history memoirs and I cannot even imagine what it is like in the UK. What I've learned from reading, is that I cannot even begin to understand what's going on. At the same time I feel like many of these events ever made me see the world in a different way from other people my age.
All I can do is reflect on my own experience. I know that we are not to get too political, (I'm very sorry barbell and please feel free to delete this) but the one thing that I held out hope for is some level of political correctness. I, for whatever it's worth, hold on to political correctness and those freedoms. I know the only reason why my father is not dead is because he was picking me up at a dentist appointment on 9/11. At the time he had an office that was on the outside of the building and I know for sure he would have been dead because... sorry... I cannot go to that place.
I know there so many evil people. But I genuinely feel like if we persecute people because of race, religion or color we are no better than the enemy. Again, I say this knowing my limitations. I never want anyone to experience on my grandmother did, Growing Up in a concentration camp. And maybe it has excessively naive but I think it is worth it to let people live with their freedoms. Then again, whatever it's worth I know what it is like to lose a part of yourself because of evil. And frankly I think it's worth it and others might disagree and that is just fine.
My understanding was that you were in the military, and I cannot truly comprehend what that was like. And I think it's lovely that you served. And I'm aware that whatever I say is absolutely trite and I know that your thoughts and feelings are valid. Anyway I thought I'd share. Again, sorry Barbell. I respect you and this site greatly.
I completely agree with you and no-one should be persecuted because of colour, or race or religion.etc. And a terrorist bomb does not discriminate either it kills all races and religions. I'm a tolerant man and live in a tolerant country, many parts of the UK have enjoyed a cosmopolitan and rich diversity of people for hundreds of years. I have had friends from pretty much most ethnic backgrounds, I have travelled and enjoyed and embraced different cultures. But as Thunderpussy says we are at war, Islamic radicals have stated they won't stop until their flag is flying above Downing Street and every Union Jack is burnt, that's not right! These people don't want to sit round a table and discuss a realistic peaceful solution, they want a radical Islamic empire, a caliphate, they want borders torn up and history rewritten. They hate the west and our way of life and they will continue to attack and kill innocent people..... Of all races.
vesper we all have belief systems based on our life experiences and your family and yourself have lived through some bad ones. As ever I listen to and respect what you and everyone says we are all entitled to our views. But respectfully I don't think political correctness as I know it has had much influence on your life. And for the record serving wasn't lovely at all ) in fact at times it was downright not lovely.
Comments
There is a lot to what you're saying here. It would require several carefully worded (and very controversial) laws and (I think) the word of more than one judge, but something like this might be neccesery.
I read "never to be seen again" as a deportion.
Standard these days, that the right people would get caught.
One example from my own home town recently was a group of " Real IRA" terrorists who
Claimed they were just having a meeting in the house they were arrested in, this excuse
Soon fell apart when it was pointed out that MI5 had, had them bugged for five months.
Assassinations can only be acceptable if the target is impossible to arrest because he is in tribal area Yemen or IS controled Syria.
There should be a panel of experienced judges. Who would be available nationally via judges circuit lodges. The terrorist team should be made up of both police and military personnel with little or preferably no family, and only serve for 3 months at a time before recall for debrief and assessment, they would also have impeccable service records and be over 28 years old. They would work alongside all security services and have unprecedented access to all records such as police, tax, social services etc. This "agency" should also be utterly separate from politicians. Certain aspects of this kind of cross service duty already exists, while I was active I worked with police and served a secondment with the customs.
Ultimately we have to ask ourselves and our politicians and our society some very serious and pertinent questions, what's more important? Political correctness or national security? Offending a few or protecting the many? safeguarding our liberties, way of life, freedoms and culture or kowtowing to an aggressive extreme form of an imported and foreign religion?
It's easy to pick fault and disagree with the solutions but no one is giving one that solves this issue. And in my mind when this murderous b*stards slaughtered children they crossed a line and they themselves redrew the battle line.
I would just add that it's the case that the fanatical islamists aren't recruiting via the Internet they are part of everyday society amd are recruiting on the streets and in the mosques. The Muslim community are possibly most responsible for rooting these guys out but they have an us and them mentality. cases such as the Rotherham sex grooming and the current one at Leeds crown court where 29 Muslim men are being prosecuted for grooming, child sex, sexual slavery of vulnerable white girls just adds to this point. I know it all too well from personal experience I'm sorry to say.
It's a question of the rule of law, the Constitution, human rights.... essentially much of the basis of our civilisation. As horrible as crimes like the recent bombing are, are we really willing to give it up for a system that just might work? What if journalists hear of what's happening - should we give up the freedom of the press too? The freedom of speech? Why don't we just save ourselves time and model our society after Saudi Arabia minus the religion or perhaps DDR?
And what happens when the muslim minority starts suspecting something? I know here in my country some parents, friends, youth club leaders etc. alert the police if they suspect radicalization. That intelligence source will dry up. The animosity and alienisation in some circles will likely rise, even at the suspicion that this program is real. If it ever gets public society might lose a generation of the muslim population.
But why worry? It's only "political correctness".
Area. When they can get a taste of oppression themselves.
Sadly N24, all this human rights red tape is actually putting people's lives at risk. When it come to rights.
I hold those of innocent kids over a bunch of crazy Fu*ked up, terrorists any day. Unless we make some
Serious changes, these attacks will continue. We have to accept we are at war, it's a question of survival
Do you know terrorism kills very few people in the West?! Traffic accidents kill much more people, so does smoking. But we aren't ready to change our society to stop that, are we? Banning cars or cigarettes wouldn't even be a Constitutional matter in most countries, but no-one suggests that. This about destroying our society to possibly save a very low number of people.
This is depressing. I'm out of this forum for tonight.
Political correctness is an illusion now a very dangerous one. If the authorities suspected a white British male around the age of 35_45 was committing serious crimes and I was stopped and searched multiple times by an Asian policeman would I scream racism, prejudice, alienation. " your only doing this because I'm white "? NO I WOULD NOT!! Political correctness is a a term and mindset conveniently touted when it suits a certain purpose. Amazingly when someone of any colour becomes a victim of certain crimes it goes out the window and cries turn to " why aren't the police and the government doing something about this "
I don't know about Norway but here white British males are the only demographic that it's tolerated can be criticised and had a go at....due to political correctness. Sensibility has no place in a discussion like this.
What is your solution 24?
My ideal solution would be to give all those such inclined to ISIS free flights to Syria, Libya etc. They would surrender their passports then we could confront them on a military level on a battlefield. But of course these cowards would rather slaughter children at a pop concert or mow down tourists, or Christmas shoppers or stab ageing clergymen in a church!
https://youtu.be/Rl6lX08MXDI. Steve Hughes on PC
Well at least I'm not alone in some of my thoughts -{
I try to keep out of this, but disagree that banning cars would not be a constitutional matter (at least in the UK)- any government that tried that would create more problems than they would solve, even if it were legally possible- which I think it isn't.
Reminds me of Patrick McGoohan saying he would play Bond if he didn't have to sleep with women he wasn't married to, or shoot people. (I can just picture Cubby saying "We'll let you know...")
Than his wife Jill Ireland .
I myself was stabbed while at school, then later was sexually assaulted. My grandmother grew up in a concentration camp because she was Roma, AKA Gypsy, and that's where several of my family members died. I only say this because much of my life has been defined buy violence because I am female, Roma and grew up in NOVA.
I realize my education is limited and I have no idea what it's like in other parts of the world. I read extensive military history memoirs and I cannot even imagine what it is like in the UK. What I've learned from reading, is that I cannot even begin to understand what's going on. At the same time I feel like many of these events ever made me see the world in a different way from other people my age.
All I can do is reflect on my own experience. I know that we are not to get too political, (I'm very sorry barbell and please feel free to delete this) but the one thing that I held out hope for is some level of political correctness. I, for whatever it's worth, hold on to political correctness and those freedoms. I know the only reason why my father is not dead is because he was picking me up at a dentist appointment on 9/11. At the time he had an office that was on the outside of the building and I know for sure he would have been dead because... sorry... I cannot go to that place.
I know there so many evil people. But I genuinely feel like if we persecute people because of race, religion or color we are no better than the enemy. Again, I say this knowing my limitations. I never want anyone to experience on my grandmother did, Growing Up in a concentration camp. And maybe it has excessively naive but I think it is worth it to let people live with their freedoms. Then again, whatever it's worth I know what it is like to lose a part of yourself because of evil. And frankly I think it's worth it and others might disagree and that is just fine.
My understanding was that you were in the military, and I cannot truly comprehend what that was like. And I think it's lovely that you served. And I'm aware that whatever I say is absolutely trite and I know that your thoughts and feelings are valid. Anyway I thought I'd share. Again, sorry Barbell. I respect you and this site greatly.
My problem with political threads is that sooner or later they end up with personal attacks. The thread gets closed, re-opened with promises that it won't happen again, the cycle repeats...
Now I know that isn't going to happen in this case because Cbriscoop is too nice a fellow to start slinging insults at you or anyone else, and the thread has been free from such despite dealing with heavy matters. Obviously we can't all agree on everything, but we can disagree in a polite way.
Whaaaaaat?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I completely agree with you and no-one should be persecuted because of colour, or race or religion.etc. And a terrorist bomb does not discriminate either it kills all races and religions. I'm a tolerant man and live in a tolerant country, many parts of the UK have enjoyed a cosmopolitan and rich diversity of people for hundreds of years. I have had friends from pretty much most ethnic backgrounds, I have travelled and enjoyed and embraced different cultures. But as Thunderpussy says we are at war, Islamic radicals have stated they won't stop until their flag is flying above Downing Street and every Union Jack is burnt, that's not right! These people don't want to sit round a table and discuss a realistic peaceful solution, they want a radical Islamic empire, a caliphate, they want borders torn up and history rewritten. They hate the west and our way of life and they will continue to attack and kill innocent people..... Of all races.
vesper we all have belief systems based on our life experiences and your family and yourself have lived through some bad ones. As ever I listen to and respect what you and everyone says we are all entitled to our views. But respectfully I don't think political correctness as I know it has had much influence on your life. And for the record serving wasn't lovely at all
Thank you Barbel for the faith and trust. {[]
And since Vesper spelt my name wrongly (twice!), I was just carrying on in that vein.
I refuse to be filmed in bed WITH Mrs CHB