Was there ever such a spy as Bond?

OurManInJakarta · March 2004

Not to be too cynical, but what is the job of a spy after all? in my mind, the typical M16 agent or CIA agent is just some bureaucrat sitting behind a desk surfing the net... just like the rest of us... he he.

the idea that he speaks a variety of languages, can go to exotic locales like Vietnam and "blend in" is patently ridiculous. [just look at Connery's "Turning Japanese" sequence in YOLT. pure camp.]

I lived behind the iron curtain for a year and yes, it's true that if you speak the language well enough, you can pass. but now living in asia, i assure you it's totally impossible to pass as a local in any way shape or form. in fact, people living here (in SE Asia) often don't venture out of their own village/town. any newcomer is IMMEDIATELY noticed.

now imagine if the said newcomer is some westerner, 6' tall, poncing around with a coolie hat on and fake eyebrows. crowds would form around him immediately and rip the Berlitz Phrase Book out of his hand.

there is a popular conception that CIA/M16 agents live exotic double lives as chameleons, changing shape as suits their purpose... but i don't think so.

i know, i know. many people will say to me, IT'S JUST A MOVIE! GET OVER IT!... but we're allowed to discuss it... right?

anyway, just wondering what others think about this point... [it perhaps explains why western spy services are helpless in the face of al qaeda... no one can infiltrate them!]

The Sly Fox · March 2004

Probably not, to answer your question. I don't think that there are any spies quite like Bond. I mean, I'm sure there are spies that do Bond's work (very few, mind you), but a lot more discretely.

I agree with you about anyone from America or Western Europe going over to Asia and "blending in" like a local. It's not likely at all, no matter how well you know their language. Even if anyone could do as you just mentioned, very few could speak another language perfectly, especially between continents, in my opinion. No matter how fluently you can speak a foreign language, you probably won't get the accent perfect. I think if they sent someone over to another country like that, they would probably have agents in which that country was their native country, and therefore those agents could blend in perfectly.

Not to go off the subject, but as for me, I don't know if I could go over to England and speak the accent perfectly. . . .I can wing it halfway decent, but if I tried I would probably just get weird looks and people saying "There goes another American."

)

OurManInJakarta · March 2004

I was quite impressed by a couple small scenes in THE GREAT ESCAPE. have you seen that film? Richard Attenborough plays a British POW who engineers the breakout of hundreds of POWS. During his escape he poses as a Frenchman, then later when caught by the Germans he simply claims to be a German citizen, speaking flawless German. The Germans actually let him go, convinced he is telling the truth. Unfortunately, he is captured soon after by a German who knows him by his looks.

I speak French (Canadian French albeit) and Attenborough's French is quite acceptable. He couldn't pass for a Frenchman in a long detailed interrogation, i think, but it is good enough that he could pass a cursory questioning. I also studied German and damn... his German did sound very convincing.

At the other end of the spectrum, Val Kilmer in THE SAINT. MWHAHAHAHA! his Russian cleaning lady was hilarious. He wouldn't get 5 steps into the street before crowds would start to form, ripping off various facial prosthetics from him. As for walking up to customs with fake noses, chins, etc. with a cheesy French or Spanish accent as he did... i think he'd find himself in a holding cell pretty quickly.

I maintain my initial assertion that most spies are bureaucrats and pencil pushers...

obsessed27 · March 2004

I'm no expert, but here's what I know. I think the word "spy" is used too broadly, and there are several kinds of spies or intelligence agents. Those you call "pencil pushers who sit behind desks all day" are analysts (like Jack Ryan, the hero of Tom Clancy's novels). All they do is read, read, and read some more. They study the information gathered by intelligence officers, satellite photos and spy planes, etc, make conclusions, and inform the decision makers. Then we have intelligence officers, who work in other countries with legitimate jobs, but whose real job is to recruit people to obtain information for them (or steal the info themselves, of course). Those people with access to secrets who then give them to their "handler" or the officer who recruited them, are also "spies".

And, of course, there are a few memoirs by former spies who write about their work and experiences, which give more information about real espionage - not what we see in movies and TV. My favorite is "See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism" by Robert Baer, who has worked in places like Iraq, Dushanbe, Rabat, Beirut, Khartoum, and New Delhi, so it's not impossible to blend in with the locals, especially if you dont try to be one of them

It's fascinating to read his opinion on why the CIA failed to prevent 9/11 and why it's not as effective as before. By the way, I learned recently that this book will be adapted for the big screen! George Clooney is planning to produce it and star in it.

yodboy007 · March 2004

There is a simple answer to your question. It is NO!

Stromberg1 · March 2004

The idea that a spy does all of those things makes it seem enjoyable to be a spy. These movies were probably partly made to attract people to become spies.

ourmaninBusan · March 2004

Was there ever such a spy as Bond?

Believe it or not,
I read an interesting article on this in a British movie mag called Neon about seven years ago, when the Bond with Pierce and Michelle Yeoh was about to come out.

They said that Fleming had in mind a Russian double-agent as a role model when he wrote Bond. Of course, most authors tend to put more of themselves into books than they would admit,
but the magazine actually named the Russkie and printed a picture. (Ladies, he was no matinee idol--imagine a Frenchman with a bean-shaped head and a fifty-year hangover.)

They suggested, also, the Ian Fleming's military training has been largely exaggerated...

As for spies, when Aldrich Ames was caught selling secrets to the Soviets, it turns out all he was doing was making photocopies of classified documents all day. A spy's job, then, seems to be closer to that of a librarian than a super-smooth assassin.

superado · March 2004

I firmly believe the Ian Fleming was James Bond, though I'm sure he didn't fight giant squids or battled with SMERSH and SPECTRE-like terror organzations. He did have the playboy lifestyle and fine tastes that are Bondian. Though he played down his own abilities and intelligence accomplishments while serving in Royal Navy Intelligence, commanding a commando unit that was several hundred men-strong, I wouldn't be surprised to one day see confirmation of his wartime and post-war secret exploits when official documents get declassified.

However, below are 3 men who from conficting sources, supposedly inspired Ian Fleming's James Bond character:

Sir Fitzroy MacLean, Scottish soldier, diplomat, politician and author:

Prior to the outbreak of war, MacLean served as a diplomat in Moscow, but it is his service during the war for which he is most noted. MacLean was a founder member of the SAS, serving in North Africa before being sent into occupied Yugoslavia as the British representative to the Communist partisans. After the war he served as an MP, achieving ministerial rank as Undersecretary for War in the mid-1950s.

Dusko Popov:

Sidney Reilly, a British spy active during WWI and the Bolshevik Revolution, lived a life similar to James Bond's. Reilly, like Bond, was out there to topple governments, and to merely venture on such grand undertakings would be out of the conventional spy's league. Like the above gentlemen, he is credited as being the inspiration for James Bond. When asked what he thought about his creation compared to Reilly, Fleming responded to the effect, "James Bond is no Sidney Reilly." Reilly, similar to Bond, lived an opulent lifestyle, possessed expensive art and furnishings (non-Bond), had many wives (again, non-Bond) and mistresses, and was considered a handsome ladiesman in his time. Sadly, he reportedly was executed in Russia around 1925 after being lured there by his enemies.

Made famous by Sam Neill's portrayal in a 12-episode series entitled "Reilly, Ace of Spies," Neill sort of looked like Reilly when dressed up, but much better looking IMO; he'd have to be, since it's the movies:

[img=http://www.ibiblio.org/samneill/films/filmstills/reilly.gif]Such men lived colorful lives of adventure, and it seems unlikely for today's working class agents to dabble among society and government elites. Post Script: There's an honorable mention for Tom Langridge who according to the book, "The Real 007" is the inspiration for James Bond. However, I could not find other sources apart from that book to support that.[/img]

superado · March 2004

Quoting OurManInJakarta:
Not to be too cynical, but what is the job of a spy after all? in my mind, the typical M16 agent or CIA agent is just some bureaucrat sitting behind a desk surfing the net... just like the rest of us... he he.

the idea that he speaks a variety of languages, can go to exotic locales like Vietnam and "blend in" is patently ridiculous. (just look at Connery's "Turning Japanese" sequence in YOLT. pure camp.)

I lived behind the iron curtain for a year and yes, it's true that if you speak the language well enough, you can pass. but now living in asia, i assure you it's totally impossible to pass as a local in any way shape or form. in fact, people living here (in SE Asia) often don't venture out of their own village/town. any newcomer is IMMEDIATELY noticed.

now imagine if the said newcomer is some westerner, 6' tall, poncing around with a coolie hat on and fake eyebrows. crowds would form around him immediately and rip the Berlitz Phrase Book out of his hand.

there is a popular conception that CIA/M16 agents live exotic double lives as chameleons, changing shape as suits their purpose... but i don't think so.

i know, i know. many people will say to me, IT'S JUST A MOVIE! GET OVER IT!... but we're allowed to discuss it... right?

anyway, just wondering what others think about this point... (it perhaps explains why western spy services are helpless in the face of al qaeda... no one can infiltrate them!)

The scenarios you pose remind me of the Tom Clancy books with the Clark and Chavez characters seeming to be themselves in a Middle-Eastern city or on a small South Pacific island. On film, it was interesting to see in "Blackhawk Down" how the Delta and Ranger recon scouts didn't bother to disguise the fact that they were Westerners and mingled openly in the Mogadishu markets.

brimstone · April 2004

Sly Fox - I am fluent in three languages, and I speak them with perfect accents. They are French, Arabic and Russian. Currently, I am studying Arabic and French at Oxford University. I aim to go into the SIS - analyst or spy. There are spies like Bond, who, although working discreetly, make their presence known.

Moonraker 5 · April 2004

Quoting brimstone:
I aim to go into the SIS - analyst or spy.

You might just have blown your chances...

IMPORTANT

Because of the nature of the work, potential candidates should not divulge to others their application or intention to apply to SIS. Failure to observe the confidentiality of an application may affect eligibility for employment.

© Crown Copyright 2001

superado · April 2004

I'll step forward as well: I am a communist counter-intelligence agent specializing in profiling new Western agency recruits, and my job just gets easier every day.

)

Acerimmer · April 2004

While you've done much more research into the subject, Superado, it's always been my understanding that Dusko Popov was Fleming's model for James Bond. Fleming's own experiences in Spain during the war would be a better example of "How Not To".

superado · April 2004

Quoting Acerimmer:
While you've done much more research into the subject, Superado, it's always been my understanding that Dusko Popov was Fleming's model for James Bond. Fleming's own experiences in Spain during the war would be a better example of "How Not To".

If that's the case, cheers to Mr. Popov who indirectly had a great effect to you and me! I've got to look up tonight Fleming's Spanish Job; can you briefly share some highlights of that?

Acerimmer · April 2004

I wish I still had the book, but it gave some background into Fleming's work in MI-6 during the Second World War. Basically, he ran into some Gestapo agents in a casino and developed a "cunning plan" to render them inactive by winning all their money at the tables. His Baldrick plan left him penniless.

Sadly, I can't even remember the name of the book, or the author, but the story is hillarious.

The Sly Fox · April 2004

Quoting brimstone:
Sly Fox - I am fluent in three languages, and I speak them with perfect accents. They are French, Arabic and Russian.

Ah, I see your point. I guess the saying "Open mouth; insert foot" now applies to me!

)

superado · April 2004

Quoting Acerimmer:
I wish I still had the book, but it gave some background into Fleming's work in MI-6 during the Second World War. Basically, he ran into some Gestapo agents in a casino and developed a "cunning plan" to render them inactive by winning all their money at the tables. His Baldrick plan left him penniless.

Sadly, I can't even remember the name of the book, or the author, but the story is hillarious.

Thank you, now I remember that story as well, and like you, I don't know which book I read it from.

ourmaninBusan · April 2004

Quoting superado:

...I think that Sidney Reilly, a British spy active during WWI and the Bolshevik Revolution, lived a life similar to James Bond's. Reilly, like Bond, was out there to topple governments, and to merely venture on such grand undertakings would be out of the conventional spy's league. Like the above gentlemen, he is credited as being the inspiration for James Bond. When asked what he thought about his creation compared to Reilly, Fleming responded to the effect, "James Bond is no Sidney Reilly." Reilly, similar to Bond, lived an opulent lifestyle, possessed expensive art and furnishings (non-Bond), had many wives (again, non-Bond) and mistresses, and was considered a handsome ladiesman in his time. Sadly, he reportedly was executed in Russia around 1925 after being lured there by his enemies.

I completely forgot about Reilly! That was a
great show. And unlike the Bond films, the
Reilly character could really be cold-blooded
when he had to be--from memory, Reilly shot a female double-agent in the back and he let an amateur spy (in the shipyard episode) get killed by an angry mob when that bumbling twit was in danger of losing his head and jeopardizing the mission...etc.

All Bond fans should rent or watch Reilly,
Ace of Spies for a more hard-edged, realistic
spy--and what a role model! He decided to stage
a coup in Russia and head the provisional gov't
by himself!

Bond Agent · October 2005

Here's an abridged version of the story, as Popov told it to journalist Alan Road in 1973:

Knowing that the Germans were anxious to find a way of passing money to their beleaguered agents in Britain, Popov had let it drop to one of his contacts in the Abwehr (German counter-intelligence) that he knew a Jewish theatrical agent in London who was worried about the course of the war and anxious to secure his future by building up a stock of dollars in neutral America.

The Germans had swallowed the bait hook, line and sinker, and that day a German agent had passed to Popov, the 80,000 dollars on the understanding that the Jew would pay an equivalent sum in sterling to their agent in London. THE beauty of the plan was that the German agent in London was already double-crossing his masters, and while His Majesty's Government would pocket a nice profit in valuable dollars, he would report back to Berlin the conclusion of a successful deal.

It was while Tricycle was savouring the deal's successful conclusion that he noticed at one of the chemin de fer tables a Lithuanian to whom he had taken an instant dislike.

The Lithuanian was a refugee from the Russians. Each night when his turn came to hold the bank he had an insulting way of declaring "no limit" on the stakes which incensed Tricycle. Tonight, Tricycle thought, was the night the Lithuanian was going to be taught a lesson.

As he made his decision the bank passed to the Lithuanian who made his usual arrogant declaration. Tricycle counted out 50,000 of the dollars he was due to pass on to his British employers the next morning and threw them on the table. The Lithuanian sagged as if all the air had gone out of him. As Tricycle had gambled, he had nothing like that sum to back up his bombast. The manager was summoned and the Lithuanian had to leave in a state of acute embarassment.

If this casino confrontation has a familiar ring about it today, it could be because among the representatives of British Intelligence in the casino that July night in 1941 was a Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve lieutenat named Ian Lancaster Fleming.

NOW 61, Popov recalls that Fleming, who was involved in Naval Intelligence work, went pale that evening in the casino, when he put the 50,000 dollars stake money on the table.

"I don't know why Fleming was at Estoril," Popov says. "Perhaps he was there to keep an eye on the money, or on me, or perhaps on both."

The book you speak of could be Spy/Counterspy, Popov's memoir. The full article is posted here.

wet nellie · October 2005

I recently heard former CIA OTS director Bob Wallace speak in Washington, and he talked about the gadgets of Bond versus gadgets in the real world of spies. His underlying point was that real spies lead very boring lives, and their gadgets are clandestine, discreet communication devices. A life of spy, Wallace said, was meeting contacts and moles then passing the information on to the Agency - CIA, NSA, etc. He made it sound unappealing in the sense of exotic women, cars, and the like. And these are obviously promoted in the Bond films since they are so marketable.

Number24 · October 2005

I called myself Number 24 after Gunnar Sønsteby, the best SOE agent in Scandinavia during WWII. During the war he had several identities, comlete with different papers, look etc. His training in UK was not unlike what a 00-agent would have, but Sønsteby chose never to assasinate anyone. He was the leader of the Oslo gang, one of the best sabotage groups during the war. He was an agent in a native country,
being an agent in a foreign country is something else! I read somewhere that the norwegian agents complained that the "Q-branch" got the clothes wrong. And England and Norway had very simular cultures.

Bond Agent · November 2005

Yes, it's quite probable that more than one British military intelligence officers and agents were named James Bond (once a quite common name) or passed by this then-unassuming alias. One of them may even still be living in Australia. But don't expect him to pop up on your TV any time soon, or be chaired around the next board meeting of [insert media conglomerate].

(post edited at the request of Bond Agent)

frostbitten · November 2005

superado wrote:

Dusko Popov:

By looking near the beginning of this thread, I think I might have stumbled upon what has inspired Barbara Broccoli to cast Daniel Craig as Bond

Doesn't Craig bear some resemblance to the late Mr. Popov?

Bond Agent · December 2005

What the...! Frostb's right! Those two must have been separated at birth! Just what is going on here? Of course, neither of them look anything like this guy, John Bennedick Brown!

PUCCINI · December 2005

I heard a spy named Sidney Reilly (from the MI6) was very lucky with women and knew a lot of languages, just like our man 007...

Loeffelholz · December 2005

Superado, on the previous page (and well over a year ago!) beat us to the punch in nominating the great and enigmatic Sidney Reilly (formerly Sigmund Rosenblum) as very possibly the closest thing to James Bond who ever lived.

I highly recommend the 12-part miniseries "Reilly: Ace of Spies," starring former near-Bond Sam Neill, to anyone fond of either historical drama or espionage stories. To my knowledge it has yet to be made available in DVD format, but I proudly own it in classic VHS. IMHO, it is just excellent...and, ironically enough, several episodes were directed by the currently reviled (

) Martin Campbell, of GE, Zorro and upcoming CR fame...

royalmile · December 2005

Oops. . . . . . . . . . . . .

Loeffelholz · December 2005

frostbitten wrote:

...I think I might have stumbled upon what has inspired Barbara Broccoli to cast Daniel Craig as Bond Doesn't Craig bear some resemblance to the late Mr. Popov?

Perhaps a successor to AKB46 has been found after all...

)

Obviously, leading man good looks are not a prerequisite for real-life espionage acumen. Not so, naturally, in the movies.

Bond Agent · December 2005

Yes, Reilly was certainly a top British agent. As ourmaninBusan notes, he very nearly overthrew the Bolshevik regime in 1918, and planned to install himself as ruler of Russia! I have just read Robin Bruce Lockhart's 1967 book. Has anyone read Andrew Cook's new biography, which makes use of newly declassified material? (Oddly enough, it is also called "Ace of Spies"). Perhaps Reilly's real name can now be revealed! But wasn't it Ian Fleming himself who said of James Bond "He's no Sidney Reilly, you know"?

frostbitten · December 2005

Loeffelholz wrote:

frostbitten wrote:

...I think I might have stumbled upon what has inspired Barbara Broccoli to cast Daniel Craig as Bond Doesn't Craig bear some resemblance to the late Mr. Popov?

Perhaps a successor to AKB46 has been found after all... )

I think you're being too generous to me, Loeffelholz

.

Bond Agent · December 2005

This might interest you. I found this article on a web search recently. Apparently it appeared in a European magazine. With your indulgence, I will quote:

Will the real Bond please stand up?
Mario de Queiroz
Dec 6, 05 10:44am

Was there ever a real superspy like James Bond, Her Majesty's secret agent with a licence to kill? A resounding "No" was the answer given by Dusan 'Dusko' Popov, himself the real character who inspired writer Ian Fleming to create agent 007.

"I doubt whether a flesh and blood Bond would last 48 hours as a spy," Popov declared to a group of Italian journalists in 1981, shortly before his death at his residence outside Cannes, on the Mediterranean Cote d'Azur in France.

Casino Royale, the book by Fleming that gave birth to the 007 legend, reached its 53rd birthday recently, and Dr No, the first film in which Scottish actor Sean Connery portrayed Popov in the shape of Bond, turned 43 this month.

Who is Dusan Popov?
The story behind Bond

When reporting becomes literature
Clive Freeman
Nov 9, 05 5:43pm

url]http://www.malaysiakini.com/rentakini/44103[/url

The informant brings the important news flash that any notion of a "real superspy like James Bond" has been "resoundingly" scotched, by none other than than the well-known "real" Yugoslav James Bond, Dusko Popov.

The author establishes his insider credentials with an intriguing snippet in the form of Popov's "real" name. I understand "Dusan" is a traditional Serbian name that means something like "Count" or "Duke". Despite his mother's pleas, Popov insisted on the more familir "Dusko".

The full article then wanders off inro am unexplicabl denunciation of Hungary's authoritarian inter-war regent, Admiral Miklos Horthy.

Clearly a diligent researcher, our correspondent has dug up his quote from 1981, but credited it only to a "group of Italian jounalists"

Popov in fact often employed this sort of throwaway line at press conferences when the inevitable questions about James Bond came up. They reflect more on (say) the use of quality booze as a literary and cinematic prop, versus the prudent self-discipline of a professional agent, like Dusko.

Note the earth-shaking anniversaries. Already excitement is building for next year.

A better insight into Popov's sentiments may be found in a 1973 one-on-one interview with Popov posted on my website courtesy of writer Allen Road and The Age.

"He probably used several of us as models," says Popov. "He picked up 10 per cent, and the other 90 per cent he invented." For, as Popov is the first to admit, the life of a spy can be dull at times, and no writer can afford to bore his readers. "The most important operations often provide the most boring work," he says.

Take, for instance, Bond's unquenchable thirst for dry martinis, shaken not stirred. "A spy who drank like Bond would be drunk the first night and dead the second," says Popov. Of Bond's amorous adventures, he is less critical. "We were young, dashing and," he added, casting a glance toward his young wife, "unmarried."

There was the night he went to a party given by the Daily Mail's Lisbon correspondent...

An archived article on my ownwebsite mentionsFleming's 1941 visit to the casino at Estoril with Popov's "foreign exchange" sting and its sequel at the same casino at Estoril. He fingers Fleming, etc. etc. The full story of Popov's role in the Bond mythos seems yet to be revealed.

Professionals like Popov and Fleming didn't give away their secrets for nothing, or share them with an adoring public any more than was absolutely necessary. They liked to modestly play down the sensational aspects of their work, or better still, maintain the illusion that they were unbelievable, sensational fiction.

In the Cold War, (as now) books, films and news stories were more important than all the bombs, bullets, and 'blind' black ops put together - although they were often managed by the same people!

Queiroz's story appears in full on the website of the Inter Press Service News Agency and s plastered across half the web. So where is my fricking website?

Queiroz appearsto be a freelance journalist of Brazilian origin who has picked up work from UN agencies in the past. However, a person of the same name is a HP Content Management VP.

I wonder where this guy gets his information?

Was there ever such a spy as Bond?

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