If you think Moore was better than Connery, Brosnan and Craig, you and I have a very different image of what Bond should be (and what good acting is...).
Regarding Damien Lewis and hair colour: Craig wasn't blond in CR, he was brown-haired like Moore. So should Lewis be in the unlikely chance he will ever be Bond.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
They could certainly do worse than Damien Lewis...and I have no idea who this Jack Davenport might be...but I persist in my belief that Henry Cavill is the Bond of the future :007)
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Not necessarily. I correctly predicted that Craig would make an ideal Bond who would be better than Connery and Brosnan, but pale in comparison to the master, Roger Moore.
Dan, I literally could not have put that any better myself. {[]
[snicker] [snicker]
Thank you.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
If you think Moore was better than Connery, Brosnan and Craig, you and I have a very different image of what Bond should be (and what good acting is...).
Perhaps we do, (we certainy have a different image of what Bond should be), but neither of us is right or wrong. I do want to make two comments though. Although I adore Moore, I actually don't think that he was better than Connery or Brosnan. My favourite Bond is Connery, followed by Brosnan and Moore, and then Craig, Lazenby and Dalton.
Also, while I do think that Moore was the third best Bond, I don't think he was the third best actor to play Bond. Not every great Bond is a great actor and not every great actor makes a great Bond. Daniel Day-Lewis is brilliant but I don't think he would make a good Bond. Similarly, in the case of Moore, I don't think he was a great actor but I do think he was a brilliant Bond.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Depends on the conclusion -- many of us correctly predicted that Craig would make a fantastic, masculine Bond that would help reinvigorate the Bond film series.
Not necessarily. I correctly predicted that Craig would make a less than ideal Bond who would not be nearly as good as Connery, Moore or Brosnan.
I'm not sure how based on box office receipts, critical reception, or media coverage you can say your prediction was correct, but, hey, whatever gets you through the day.
I'm not sure how based on box office receipts, critical reception, or media coverage you can say your prediction was correct, but, hey, whatever gets you through the day.
Well, considering that in your prediction you mentioned Craig being a 'fantastic, masculine Bond' but didn't say anything about the above criteria, I don't know how you can pretend that you said anything but an opinion. You love Craig, fine, but it's not fact. Plus, even if Craig was the most commercially successful, critically acclaimed Bond of all time, it still wouldn't change the fact that your opinion is just an opinion.
Gassy Man, you do realise that when discussing whether or not Craig is good or not, nobody is correct? I don't care what you think about Craig, but don't act as if you are right and I am wrong simply because I have a different opinion to you.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
You are absolutely right, Dan Same. We have different perseptions of how Bond should be and both of us are right. You are also right when you write that a better actor doesn't automaticaly make a better Bond. Dustin Hoffman is a much better actor than Arnold Schwartzenegger, but Arnie was a great Terminator and Dustin could never have played the role.
But Moore's acting skills was so limited that they limited what Bond could be and do, and even in the often cartoonish Bond films Moore made his weak acting skills show. Moore could joke better than any other Bond and is a good entertainer, but the two worst ond movies ever (Moonraker and AVTAK)was his and the responsibility for the low quality is partly his.
You are absolutely right, Dan Same. We have different perseptions of how Bond should be and both of us are right.
Well, actually, I'm right and you're wrong. Just kidding. Seriously, it's not a matter of right and wrong. It's simply a matter of disagreeing with each other. Speaking of which ....
But Moore's acting skills was so limited that they limited what Bond could be and do, and even in the often cartoonish Bond films Moore made his weak acting skills show.
Bring on the disagreements - IMO Moore's acting skills were absolutely fine. Yes, he's no De Niro (who is? ) but I thought he was terrific in five of his films (aside from TMWTGG in which he was only okay and AVTAK in which he was too old.)
Also, considering that IMO Moore produced four masterpieces (LALD, TSWLM, FYEO, OP), I think that his performances and what his Bond did were absolutely fantastic. I have no problems with him whatsoever, and perhaps comtroversially, I do consider him to be a vastly superior Bond to the much admired Craig. (I was going to comment on your description of his films as 'cartoonish' but that's a disagreement for another time. )
Moore could joke better than any other Bond and is a good entertainer, but the two worst ond movies ever (Moonraker and AVTAK)was his and the responsibility for the low quality is partly his.
Well, firstly I think he was more than a mere joker and entertainer. I think he was as suave as they come, incredibly ruthless and very tough. IMO he was the third greatest Bond of all time. As for MR (which wasn't one of the two worst Bond films IMO), I think that Moore was terrific in it. Regarding AVTAK (which along with TLD was IMO one of the two worst Bond films), he was too old, but I think any actor would have failed due to the low quality of the script. So really, I don't think he should take much responsibility, if at all. I mean, yes, he wasn't great in AVTAK, and was less than ideal in TMWTGG, but IMO he was superb in the other five films. (His performance in TSWLM, was for example, the seventh greatest Bond performance of all time IMO, behind five Connerys and one Brosnan.)
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Not necessarily. I correctly predicted that Craig would make an ideal Bond who would be better than Connery and Brosnan, but pale in comparison to the master, Roger Moore.
Dan, I literally could not have put that any better myself. {[]
I'm not sure how based on box office receipts, critical reception, or media coverage you can say your prediction was correct, but, hey, whatever gets you through the day.
Well, considering that in your prediction you mentioned Craig being a 'fantastic, masculine Bond' but didn't say anything about the above criteria, I don't know how you can pretend that you said anything but an opinion. You love Craig, fine, but it's not fact. Plus, even if Craig was the most commercially successful, critically acclaimed Bond of all time, it still wouldn't change the fact that your opinion is just an opinion.
Gassy Man, you do realise that when discussing whether or not Craig is good or not, nobody is correct? I don't care what you think about Craig, but don't act as if you are right and I am wrong simply because I have a different opinion to you.
Well, of course it's an opinion, Dan, but take a page from your own book and don't act as if my opinion is wrong and yours is right. The door swings both ways. More importantly, outside of trivia on boards like these, everything is opinion -- if you don't care what other people think, what are you here for? To point out we're all entitled to our own opinions?
Well, of course it's an opinion, Dan, but take a page from your own book and don't act as if my opinion is wrong and yours is right. The door swings both ways.
I'm not going to argue about this other than point out that it wasn't me who referred to box office, critical acclaim and media coverage and then ended with a comment like "whatever gets you through the day." You can believe whatever you like. 8-)
if you don't care what other people think, what are you here for? To point out we're all entitled to our own opinions?
Actually I do care what other people think. Perhaps a little too much.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
So Roger Moore was "incredibly ruthless and very tough"? There are some words I never expected to see in the same sentence...
Compare any fight in CR to any fight involving Moore. Witnes how tough, athletic and ruthless Craig is to the "karate chops" that Moore delivers, and the differance stands out a mile.
I know movies use stuntmen, but I don't think Moore could have handled the physiscal acting that Craig pulls off.
Moore did ruthless when he kicked the car of the cliff in FYEO, but that was so unusual it was allmost out of character for Moore.
Also witnes Craig's acting in the torture scene and Vesper's death and the aftermath in CR, and try to imagine Moore doing it. It's very hard, isn't it?
But I have to make this clear, I'm no Moore-hater. I have no plans of starting MoorenotBond.com! I think Moore had enough of the look, lookede comfortable in the womanizing scenes well, handled the humor expertly and was very sauve. LALD and FYEO are pretty good movies, perhaps on my list of ten best Bond movies (but not among the top five).
So we can discuss more Moore (!) if you want to, but let's allways keep in mind that we are here because we are fans of Bond, James Bond.
So Roger Moore was "incredibly ruthless and very tough"? There are some words I never expected to see in the same sentence...
Compare any fight in CR to any fight involving Moore. Witnes how tough, athletic and ruthless Craig is to the "karate chops" that Moore delivers, and the differance stands out a mile.
I know movies use stuntmen, but I don't think Moore could have handled the physiscal acting that Craig pulls off.
It's all relative. Yes, Moore wasn't among the toughest of Bonds, but I think he was still pretty tough. As for ruthlessness, I'll talk about that later.
Moore did ruthless when he kicked the car of the cliff in FYEO, but that was so unusual it was allmost out of character for Moore.
I think that Moore was among the absolute most ruthless of all the Bonds, and was probably more ruthless than Craig. I'm not going to go through all of his films, but among Moore's ruthless acts were his seduction of Solitaire in LALD, his bedding of one women while another was in a closet in TMWTGG, his slapping a woman in TMWTGG, his killing of Sandor in TSWLM, his killing of Stromberg in TSWLM, his kicking the car of the cliff in FYEO and his dispatch of a knife wielding villain in OP. His killing of Sandor, was IMO the most ruthless act in the history of the Bond films. Alot of people talk about how shocking the killing of Dent in DN was, but I think the killing of Sandor was much more shocking.
BTW, there is one scene that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how ruthless Moore was; that is his sleeping with May Day in AVTAK.
Also witnes Craig's acting in the torture scene and Vesper's death and the aftermath in CR, and try to imagine Moore doing it. It's very hard, isn't it?
Perhaps. I think that if (a younger) Moore had done it, it would have to be tailered for his needs, which is fine by me. I have to say, through I love Moore, I'm not going to die regretting that he had never done CR. I think that if CR had been done a little differently, Moore could have been great, but I would much prefer that CR have been done with (a younger) Connery, Brosnan, or Clive Owen. I liked CR, however I didn't love it, and while I didn't think that Craig was too bad, I didn't think he wa fantastic. I think Connery, Brosnan and Owen could have been fantastic.
One last comment about Moore's acting; Before asking wether or not a Bond could have acted as well or better in another Bond's film, I think it's more important to ask wether the original actor should be replaced. I would love to have replaced Lazenby, Dalton and and perhaps Craig. I might even have replaced Moore in AVTAK. But I wouldn't have replaced Moore in any of his other six films (including TMWTGG in which I din't think he was particularly great.) Additionally, I acknowledge that while Craig is a better actor than Moore (I'm never going to repeat that, so enjoy that while you can ), I think that five, possibly six of Moore's performances were better performances than Craig's in CR. That is, while I tbink Craig has a better chance of finishing his career with an Oscar-nomination than Moore ever did, I think Moore played Bond far better in five (*possibly six) performances than Craig did in CR. (*I'm still internally debating the merits of Moore's performance in TMWTGG.)
But I have to make this clear, I'm no Moore-hater. I have no plans of starting MoorenotBond.com! I think Moore had enough of the look, lookede comfortable in the womanizing scenes well, handled the humor expertly and was very sauve. LALD and FYEO are pretty good movies, perhaps on my list of ten best Bond movies (but not among the top five).
So we can discuss more Moore (!) if you want to, but let's allways keep in mind that we are here because we are fans of Bond, James Bond.
I'm glad you like Moore. I have to say that I myself am no Craig hater. I thought he was brilliant in the final scene. So really, the chances of my joining up with CraignotBond.com are absolutely zero.
I love discussing Bond on this site. As long as there are no personal attacks, then it can be great. I have to say though, you certainly keep me on my toes. :v -{
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
OK, you have convinced me that Moore did portray a ruthless Bond on some occations. But Craig is far more convincing in those scenes in my oppinion. I'm reading DAF now, BTW, and I found something interesting - "Shady" Three comments to "Peter Franks" (Bond): "You look like you might have killed someone". This bellies the claim by some anti-Craigers (this is just a BTW, I don't know what your oppinion is) that Craig looks wrong when he looks like a killer, and Bond should look like a buissnesman.
You have admitted that Craig is a better actor than Moore, but you think Moore still portrays Bond better. That's fine and we should end that debate. Because the latter is a matter of personal taste and could be debated till we are blue in the face, and notthing good would come of it.
One of my other points is that Craig is more athletic and looks more convincing in the action scenes. For example you can compare how they run. Craig ran and jumped so well you could believe he could keep up with the freerunner (he couldn't, really , but not many men could). I don't think Moore could have done it so well. I know it's questionable to not give my source, but I'll do it anyway: One of Moore'as directors said they were shooting a scene were Moore was running away from the camera. Moore did the scene, turned to the camera after the scene and saw the entire crew laughing hard. He ran with a very stiff back and this made his running ineffective and comical. After that they tried to use stuntmen or cut the scenes to avoid scenes of Moore running. The problem is ... I don't remember who the director was. Believe it or not, that's up to you. But I think Moore was the least athletic of the Bonds.
I like this debate, and in a better world the Craig/Brosnan-debate would have been like this: no personal attacks and respect for your co-debater (is that a word?)
This bellies the claim by some anti-Craigers (this is just a BTW, I don't know what your oppinion is) that Craig looks wrong when he looks like a killer, and Bond should look like a buissnesman.
My problem with Craig wasn't that he didn't look like a businessman when he killed, but he always looked like a killer, even when he wasn't killing.
Craig ran and jumped so well you could believe he could keep up with the freerunner (he couldn't, really , but not many men could). I don't think Moore could have done it so well.
Craig's athleticism was fantastic. I think it's one of his best attributes. Regarding Moore, while he was probably the least athletic of the Bonds, I don't think that matters as he convinced me nonetheless. When I see a Bond film, I want to be convinced that Bond could actually hurt someone. While Moore may not have been as tough or athletic as the other Bonds, I was still convinced that he was suitably tough and athletic.
Craig's athleticism is simply outstanding, as is his fighting ability. It would be wonderful if Moore was as tough and athletic as him. But he isn't. However, I'm fine with that as Moore is tough and athletic enough and he makes up for any difference in athleticism and toughness in other ways.
I like this debate, and in a better world the Craig/Brosnan-debate would have been like this: no personal attacks and respect for your co-debater (is that a word?)
I completely agree.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
My point about Craig looking like killer was this:
Flemming too wrote he looked like a killer. When he delivers the diamonds to "Shady" Three in DAF Shady says Bond looks like he might have killed someone in the past. One point to the pro-Craigers!
Someone once said: When Connery (or Craig IMO) playing Bond walked into a bar, he looked like he could kill someone anytime. When Moore playing Bond walked into a bar he looked like he could tell a joke any minute. Oversimplyfied off course, but that catches the essence of the three actors.
My point about Craig looking like killer was this:
Flemming too wrote he looked like a killer. When he delivers the diamonds to "Shady" Three in DAF Shady says Bond looks like he might have killed someone in the past. One point to the pro-Craigers!
Someone once said: When Connery (or Craig IMO) playing Bond walked into a bar, he looked like he could kill someone anytime. When Moore playing Bond walked into a bar he looked like he could tell a joke any minute. Oversimplyfied off course, but that catches the essence of the three actors.
I don't want to appear as I'm always disagreeing with you , but I want to make one comment. Obviously I disagree that Moore came across as a joker (but we'll never agree on that), however what I want to say is that, wether or not Craig's portrayal was more or less faithful to Flemming than Moore's (or Connery's performances in YOLT and DAF, and Brosnan's for that matter), it doesn't affect my views of how the cinematic Bond should come across. As you yourself noted, we have different images of Bond, and mine was forged by the cinematic version.
BTW, I'm loving this debate. Feel free to disagree with some of my above comments.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Comments
Regarding Damien Lewis and hair colour: Craig wasn't blond in CR, he was brown-haired like Moore. So should Lewis be in the unlikely chance he will ever be Bond.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Perhaps we do, (we certainy have a different image of what Bond should be), but neither of us is right or wrong.
Also, while I do think that Moore was the third best Bond, I don't think he was the third best actor to play Bond. Not every great Bond is a great actor and not every great actor makes a great Bond. Daniel Day-Lewis is brilliant but I don't think he would make a good Bond. Similarly, in the case of Moore, I don't think he was a great actor but I do think he was a brilliant Bond.
Gassy Man, you do realise that when discussing whether or not Craig is good or not, nobody is correct? I don't care what you think about Craig, but don't act as if you are right and I am wrong simply because I have a different opinion to you.
But Moore's acting skills was so limited that they limited what Bond could be and do, and even in the often cartoonish Bond films Moore made his weak acting skills show. Moore could joke better than any other Bond and is a good entertainer, but the two worst ond movies ever (Moonraker and AVTAK)was his and the responsibility for the low quality is partly his.
Bring on the disagreements
Also, considering that IMO Moore produced four masterpieces (LALD, TSWLM, FYEO, OP), I think that his performances and what his Bond did were absolutely fantastic.
Well, firstly I think he was more than a mere joker and entertainer. I think he was as suave as they come, incredibly ruthless and very tough. IMO he was the third greatest Bond of all time. As for MR (which wasn't one of the two worst Bond films IMO), I think that Moore was terrific in it. Regarding AVTAK (which along with TLD was IMO one of the two worst Bond films), he was too old, but I think any actor would have failed due to the low quality of the script. So really, I don't think he should take much responsibility, if at all. I mean, yes, he wasn't great in AVTAK, and was less than ideal in TMWTGG, but IMO he was superb in the other five films. (His performance in TSWLM, was for example, the seventh greatest Bond performance of all time IMO, behind five Connerys and one Brosnan.)
It was a real pleasure.
Seriously, Dan. You are a true sport.
Actually I do care what other people think. Perhaps a little too much.
Compare any fight in CR to any fight involving Moore. Witnes how tough, athletic and ruthless Craig is to the "karate chops" that Moore delivers, and the differance stands out a mile.
I know movies use stuntmen, but I don't think Moore could have handled the physiscal acting that Craig pulls off.
Moore did ruthless when he kicked the car of the cliff in FYEO, but that was so unusual it was allmost out of character for Moore.
Also witnes Craig's acting in the torture scene and Vesper's death and the aftermath in CR, and try to imagine Moore doing it. It's very hard, isn't it?
But I have to make this clear, I'm no Moore-hater. I have no plans of starting MoorenotBond.com! I think Moore had enough of the look, lookede comfortable in the womanizing scenes well, handled the humor expertly and was very sauve. LALD and FYEO are pretty good movies, perhaps on my list of ten best Bond movies (but not among the top five).
So we can discuss more Moore (!) if you want to, but let's allways keep in mind that we are here because we are fans of Bond, James Bond.
Agree with you about Owen. However he's five years older than Craig, so I don't think he's an option to replace him.
I think that Moore was among the absolute most ruthless of all the Bonds, and was probably more ruthless than Craig. I'm not going to go through all of his films, but among Moore's ruthless acts were his seduction of Solitaire in LALD, his bedding of one women while another was in a closet in TMWTGG, his slapping a woman in TMWTGG, his killing of Sandor in TSWLM, his killing of Stromberg in TSWLM, his kicking the car of the cliff in FYEO and his dispatch of a knife wielding villain in OP. His killing of Sandor, was IMO the most ruthless act in the history of the Bond films. Alot of people talk about how shocking the killing of Dent in DN was, but I think the killing of Sandor was much more shocking.
BTW, there is one scene that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how ruthless Moore was; that is his sleeping with May Day in AVTAK.
Perhaps. I think that if (a younger) Moore had done it, it would have to be tailered for his needs, which is fine by me.
One last comment about Moore's acting; Before asking wether or not a Bond could have acted as well or better in another Bond's film, I think it's more important to ask wether the original actor should be replaced. I would love to have replaced Lazenby, Dalton and and perhaps Craig. I might even have replaced Moore in AVTAK. But I wouldn't have replaced Moore in any of his other six films (including TMWTGG in which I din't think he was particularly great.) Additionally, I acknowledge that while Craig is a better actor than Moore (I'm never going to repeat that, so enjoy that while you can
I'm glad you like Moore.
I love discussing Bond on this site. As long as there are no personal attacks, then it can be great. I have to say though, you certainly keep me on my toes. :v -{
You have admitted that Craig is a better actor than Moore, but you think Moore still portrays Bond better. That's fine and we should end that debate. Because the latter is a matter of personal taste and could be debated till we are blue in the face, and notthing good would come of it.
One of my other points is that Craig is more athletic and looks more convincing in the action scenes. For example you can compare how they run. Craig ran and jumped so well you could believe he could keep up with the freerunner (he couldn't, really , but not many men could). I don't think Moore could have done it so well. I know it's questionable to not give my source, but I'll do it anyway: One of Moore'as directors said they were shooting a scene were Moore was running away from the camera. Moore did the scene, turned to the camera after the scene and saw the entire crew laughing hard. He ran with a very stiff back and this made his running ineffective and comical. After that they tried to use stuntmen or cut the scenes to avoid scenes of Moore running. The problem is ... I don't remember who the director was. Believe it or not, that's up to you. But I think Moore was the least athletic of the Bonds.
I like this debate, and in a better world the Craig/Brosnan-debate would have been like this: no personal attacks and respect for your co-debater (is that a word?)
Craig's athleticism was fantastic. I think it's one of his best attributes. Regarding Moore, while he was probably the least athletic of the Bonds, I don't think that matters as he convinced me nonetheless. When I see a Bond film, I want to be convinced that Bond could actually hurt someone. While Moore may not have been as tough or athletic as the other Bonds, I was still convinced that he was suitably tough and athletic.
Craig's athleticism is simply outstanding, as is his fighting ability. It would be wonderful if Moore was as tough and athletic as him. But he isn't. However, I'm fine with that as Moore is tough and athletic enough and he makes up for any difference in athleticism and toughness in other ways.
I completely agree.
Who is Jack Davenport?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0202603/
Flemming too wrote he looked like a killer. When he delivers the diamonds to "Shady" Three in DAF Shady says Bond looks like he might have killed someone in the past. One point to the pro-Craigers!
Someone once said: When Connery (or Craig IMO) playing Bond walked into a bar, he looked like he could kill someone anytime. When Moore playing Bond walked into a bar he looked like he could tell a joke any minute. Oversimplyfied off course, but that catches the essence of the three actors.
I don't want to appear as I'm always disagreeing with you
BTW, I'm loving this debate.