As for saying hes reluctant to kill an un armed person, thats up for discussion. To say that he "might still be reluctant" however is a far strecth, as in many of those times he showed no reluctance. He didnt seem to irked about having to kill Davidov or Sandor. In fact, Elektra was the only one he seemed to show grief for, and part of it seemed liked he was upset she was evil, not that Bond had to kill her
I don't know if he was always reluctant. But in regards to Electra, I would imagine that he was as he was seemingly in love with her (although their relationship was quite undeveloped.) I don't think he enjoyed killing her as demonstrated by the death scene, one of the all-time great moments IMO. So, is Bond reluctant to kill? Often not, but IMO he was in the case of Electra.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I don't think he enjoyed killing her as demonstrated by the death scene, one of the all-time great moments IMO.
Without question, one of the very best moments of the Pierce Brosnan era. However, some of the edge is taken off that scene by the way he hovers over Elektra's body after he has shot her. For me, it would have been better if he had just stood where he was and given Elektra's body a remorseful glance before turning and jumping into the water.
Really? I can think of several occasions in which Bond didn't seem all that reluctant to kill an unarmed person.
Me too. However in TWINE, I believe he was reluctant as he was seemingly in love with Electra (although the screenplay IMO was undeveloped.)
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Who else thinks that TWINE is the best display of PB?
Im not saying Best Bond, but best peformance BY PB.
I think that he is at his best in TWINE, because he finnaly has been given a good director (cannot include GE because it was PB's first and hasnt warmed to the role)
I would say that GE is his 2nd best, but he is strong enough in it to get my 1st place.
Who else thinks that TWINE is the best display of PB?
That is a tough call. because while I think he had a terrible crop of movies, I simply loved him as James Bond. I'd dont think he actually gave a bad performance in any outing.
Who else thinks that TWINE is the best display of PB?
That is a tough call. because while I think he had a terrible crop of movies, I simply loved him as James Bond. I'd dont think he actually gave a bad performance in any outing.
Ok then, which movie made PB shine as a real actor.
Here is an example:
SC: FRWL
RM: FYEO
TD: TND
PB: TWINE
They are all great actors, yes. But which movie do they have chance to act like they can.
That is a Ok then, which movie made PB shine as a real actor.
Here is an example:
SC: FRWL
RM: FYEO
TD: TND
PB: TWINE
Don't you mean TLD for TD?
Anyhow, as to the main question. I prefer TND to TWINE. Sure, of all Brosnan Bonds,TND is the most formulaic and least ambitious from a storytelling perspective with it basically being a remake of YOLT and TSWLM. However, it seems to go with the attitude "we're going to take the Bond formula and streamline it and make the fastest moving Bond picture yet for ADD viewers" and succeeds on that level. On the other hand, TWINE bites off more than it can chew. It tries to be Brosnan's OHMSS but messes it up by mixing it with elements of AVTAK. Also, TND at least compares somewhat favorably with Lewis Gilbert films it emulates. TWINE really seems lame next to the vastly superior OHMSS and the recent brilliant CR. Like OHMSS and CR, TWINE should have had the courage to end the film tragically with no "second Bond girl in the wings to give him a happy ending." Also, the soap opera theatrics in TWINE really get annoying while TND just simply has fun. TND's pre title sequence is more exciting than TWINE's and David Arnold's TND score easily beats his TWINE score . I think Brosnan also generates more sparks with Teri Hatcher's Paris than he does with Sophie Marceau's Elektra despite the fact that Teri had far less screentime. I didn't care for either Wai Lin or Christmas Jones. In both TND and TWINE, the Bond girl that ends up dead instead of with Bond is more interesting than the main girl.
That is a Ok then, which movie made PB shine as a real actor.
Here is an example:
SC: FRWL
RM: FYEO
TD: TND
PB: TWINE
Don't you mean TLD for TD?
Anyhow, as to the main question. I prefer TND to TWINE. Sure, of all Brosnan Bonds,TND is the most formulaic and least ambitious from a storytelling perspective with it basically being a remake of YOLT and TSWLM. However, it seems to go with the attitude "we're going to take the Bond formula and streamline it and make the fastest moving Bond picture yet for ADD viewers" and succeeds on that level. On the other hand, TWINE bites off more than it can chew. It tries to be Brosnan's OHMSS but messes it up by mixing it with elements of AVTAK. Also, TND at least compares somewhat favorably with Lewis Gilbert films it emulates. TWINE really seems lame next to the vastly superior OHMSS and the recent brilliant CR. Like OHMSS and CR, TWINE should have had the courage to end the film tragically with no "second Bond girl in the wings to give him a happy ending." Also, the soap opera theatrics in TWINE really get annoying while TND just simply has fun. TND's pre title sequence is more exciting than TWINE's and David Arnold's TND score easily beats his TWINE score . I think Brosnan also generates more sparks with Teri Hatcher's Paris than he does with Sophie Marceau's Elektra despite the fact that Teri had far less screentime. I didn't care for either Wai Lin or Christmas Jones. In both TND and TWINE, the Bond girl that ends up dead instead of with Bond is more interesting than the main girl.
So, I vote for TND.
Yes I do mean TLD for Dalton.
Each to their own and I respect your point of view. But IMO the only comparison to OHMSS is the emotional aspect and the moto. TND has plenty of cool elements but there is no substance at all to them. TWINE is a caper for bond, TND is a silly run around americanisation.
That attitude of a director or EON "we're going to take the Bond formula and streamline it and make the fastest moving Bond picture yet for ADD viewers" is weak and pathetic, thats just like saying were making a something exactly like the last 40 years. Bond often needs something fresh like CR, which makes people feel that there is actully something going on here. No bimbo WAI LIN who sucks, some 'nothing to do with continuity stuck-in' Paris Carver, Cliche Villian and Henchman and boring running shoot em up, bring back Jack Wade bull****.
Each to their own and I respect your point of view. But IMO the only comparison to OHMSS is the emotional aspect and the moto. TND has plenty of cool elements but there is no substance at all to them. TWINE is a caper for bond, TND is a silly run around americanisation.
That attitude of a director or EON "we're going to take the Bond formula and streamline it and make the fastest moving Bond picture yet for ADD viewers" is weak and pathetic, thats just like saying were making a something exactly like the last 40 years. Bond often needs something fresh like CR, which makes people feel that there is actully something going on here. No bimbo WAI LIN who sucks, some 'nothing to do with continuity stuck-in' Paris Carver, Cliche Villian and Henchman and boring running shoot em up, bring back Jack Wade bull****.
TND is worse than DAD.
Don't get me wrong. I think CR is better than all 4 Brosnan Bond films put together. I love fresh and willingness to take some risks with the formula, hence I didn't care for AVTAK(probably the stalest and most-stuck-to-formula-Bond-film ever) and preferred Dalton's 2 entries which at least mixed up the formula a bit. However, my point was that TND never pretends to be more than 2 hours of silly escapism and pretty much delivers on its promises. It was the most formulaic Bond film since AVTAK 12 years earlier but after the gap in films and the changes we saw in TLD, LTK and GE, a return to the "safe" formula was fun again. On the other hand, TWINE tries to be a more "serious" Bond film in the vein of FRWL/OHMSS/TLD and now CR but falls woefully short of the 1963, 1969, 1987 and 2006 entries IMHO.
CR is the "next classic Bond film" I've been waiting for since TLD.
Each to their own and I respect your point of view. But IMO the only comparison to OHMSS is the emotional aspect and the moto. TND has plenty of cool elements but there is no substance at all to them. TWINE is a caper for bond, TND is a silly run around americanisation.
That attitude of a director or EON "we're going to take the Bond formula and streamline it and make the fastest moving Bond picture yet for ADD viewers" is weak and pathetic, thats just like saying were making a something exactly like the last 40 years. Bond often needs something fresh like CR, which makes people feel that there is actully something going on here. No bimbo WAI LIN who sucks, some 'nothing to do with continuity stuck-in' Paris Carver, Cliche Villian and Henchman and boring running shoot em up, bring back Jack Wade bull****.
TND is worse than DAD.
Don't get me wrong. I think CR is better than all 4 Brosnan Bond films put together. I love fresh and willingness to take some risks with the formula, hence I didn't care for AVTAK(probably the stalest and most-stuck-to-formula-Bond-film ever) and preferred Dalton's 2 entries which at least mixed up the formula a bit. However, my point was that TND never pretends to be more than 2 hours of silly escapism and pretty much delivers on its promises. It was the most formulaic Bond film since AVTAK 12 years earlier but after the gap in films and the changes we saw in TLD, LTK and GE, a return to the "safe" formula was fun again. On the other hand, TWINE tries to be a more "serious" Bond film in the vein of FRWL/OHMSS/TLD and now CR but falls woefully short of the 1963, 1969, 1987 and 2006 entries IMHO.
CR is the "next classic Bond film" I've been waiting for since TLD.
Yes i would definatly agree with that, but would you say that why people dont like TND (not in comparison with TWINE) is because of a boring and tired formula? Look at why we dont like DAD, TND, AVTAK, MR (some of us), YOLT etc....
Some are bad films that one can still enjoy...and some are just really bad films. TND is an example of the former (as PKK points out, it fits in well with the Gilbert Bonds, and I actually prefer it over bored Connery in YOLT and cartoony Moore in TSWLM and MR); TWINE is an example of the latter (fits in well with Hamilton's 70s efforts, and Glen's childish messes in the 80s--again, PKK nails it, too much soap opera and not enough Bond! ). Apted had no business directing a Bond film, and proved it with TWINE.
I do agree with you, HMD, that Brosnan has some good scenes in TWINE, but that's as far as I can go with that film.
Side note: what's with Bond plus an army of commando-type dudes storming the villian's lair at the end of XYZ Bond film? It was cute in TB, made sense (and was dramatically scaled down, thank goodness) in OHMSS...and that's it. The rest--YOLT, DAF, TSWLM, MR, OP (but points for originality, even if it was uber-silly)--seem baggy and draggy. I know the end of TND gets ragged on, but I thought Bond trying to disable or make the stealth ship show up on radar was a nice change of pace to the old fashioned commando raid. Seems a very Bond-like thing to do, target the engine room and the hull, in a nice Bond-like setting. The whole submarine part of TWINE--heck Elektra's entire plot--seemed really random and why bother when there are so many ways to achieve her objective that don't require, say, kidnapping the head of British Secret Service... 8-) It was all too silly to get behind, and handled with Glen-like ineptitude. And as much as I like Bond going after the big bad on his own at the end of a Bond film, diving after a nuclear submarine made me laugh out loud, sorry. Like the rest of TND, the end is simple and clear, and still holds up just fine because of that--a knock-down, drag-out fist fight between Bond and Stamper, carried out on all those great catwalks and such, is all that's missing IMO. Their scuffle around the missle was far too short IMO (c'mon, Wai Lin is a trained agent, she can hold her breath for like 7, 8 minutes or so ). End it the way it ended, but have a lot more fun getting there, they spent too much time all through the film for Bond and Stamper to not get their fist fight on at the end of it. The more simple Bond-centric ending is another reason why I prefer TND over the Gilbert Bonds, the more serious tone helps too. Better action scenes, best female character in Paris, Dr. Kaufman...lots of fun stuff.
I'm rambling now, I'll stop. I know TWINE gets high marks from a lot of Bond fans, oh well, to each their own. {[]
Some are bad films that one can still enjoy...and some are just really bad films. TND is an example of the former (as PKK points out, it fits in well with the Gilbert Bonds, and I actually prefer it over bored Connery in YOLT and cartoony Moore in TSWLM and MR); TWINE is an example of the latter (fits in well with Hamilton's 70s efforts, and Glen's childish messes in the 80s--again, PKK nails it, too much soap opera and not enough Bond! ). Apted had no business directing a Bond film, and proved it with TWINE.
I do agree with you, HMD, that Brosnan has some good scenes in TWINE, but that's as far as I can go with that film.
Side note: what's with Bond plus an army of commando-type dudes storming the villian's lair at the end of XYZ Bond film? It was cute in TB, made sense (and was dramatically scaled down, thank goodness) in OHMSS...and that's it. The rest--YOLT, DAF, TSWLM, MR, OP (but points for originality, even if it was uber-silly)--seem baggy and draggy. I know the end of TND gets ragged on, but I thought Bond trying to disable or make the stealth ship show up on radar was a nice change of pace to the old fashioned commando raid. Seems a very Bond-like thing to do, target the engine room and the hull, in a nice Bond-like setting. The whole submarine part of TWINE--heck Elektra's entire plot--seemed really random and why bother when there are so many ways to achieve her objective that don't require, say, kidnapping the head of British Secret Service... 8-) It was all too silly to get behind, and handled with Glen-like ineptitude. And as much as I like Bond going after the big bad on his own at the end of a Bond film, diving after a nuclear submarine made me laugh out loud, sorry. Like the rest of TND, the end is simple and clear, and still holds up just fine because of that--a knock-down, drag-out fist fight between Bond and Stamper, carried out on all those great catwalks and such, is all that's missing IMO. Their scuffle around the missle was far too short IMO (c'mon, Wai Lin is a trained agent, she can hold her breath for like 7, 8 minutes or so ). End it the way it ended, but have a lot more fun getting there, they spent too much time all through the film for Bond and Stamper to not get their fist fight on at the end of it. The more simple Bond-centric ending is another reason why I prefer TND over the Gilbert Bonds, the more serious tone helps too. Better action scenes, best female character in Paris, Dr. Kaufman...lots of fun stuff.
I'm rambling now, I'll stop. I know TWINE gets high marks from a lot of Bond fans, oh well, to each their own. {[]
I would have to say that Gilberts best is TSWLM and Roger was much more interesting to watch than the 'bring nothing to it' Sean Connery YOLT. Knowing that SC is bored really effects the picture and compared to TSWLM you dont feel a thing from SC when you really do from RM, eg, action scenes, stromberg scenes, difusing bomb etc.
I think that this all relates to TND, where there is actully something interesting happening to the main character.
Everything with Elektra I feel is justified, TND just feels tired and boring, suffering from DAD syndrome.
PB always gives the best he can, and you can tell, but in TWINE he is finnaly given something meaty.
I still think its fun to watch, but on a quality level, it stinks.
Some are bad films that one can still enjoy...and some are just really bad films. TND is an example of the former (as PKK points out, it fits in well with the Gilbert Bonds, and I actually prefer it over bored Connery in YOLT and cartoony Moore in TSWLM and MR); TWINE is an example of the latter (fits in well with Hamilton's 70s efforts, and Glen's childish messes in the 80s--again, PKK nails it, too much soap opera and not enough Bond! ). Apted had no business directing a Bond film, and proved it with TWINE.
I do agree with you, HMD, that Brosnan has some good scenes in TWINE, but that's as far as I can go with that film.
Side note: what's with Bond plus an army of commando-type dudes storming the villian's lair at the end of XYZ Bond film? It was cute in TB, made sense (and was dramatically scaled down, thank goodness) in OHMSS...and that's it. The rest--YOLT, DAF, TSWLM, MR, OP (but points for originality, even if it was uber-silly)--seem baggy and draggy. I know the end of TND gets ragged on, but I thought Bond trying to disable or make the stealth ship show up on radar was a nice change of pace to the old fashioned commando raid. Seems a very Bond-like thing to do, target the engine room and the hull, in a nice Bond-like setting. The whole submarine part of TWINE--heck Elektra's entire plot--seemed really random and why bother when there are so many ways to achieve her objective that don't require, say, kidnapping the head of British Secret Service... 8-) It was all too silly to get behind, and handled with Glen-like ineptitude. And as much as I like Bond going after the big bad on his own at the end of a Bond film, diving after a nuclear submarine made me laugh out loud, sorry. Like the rest of TND, the end is simple and clear, and still holds up just fine because of that--a knock-down, drag-out fist fight between Bond and Stamper, carried out on all those great catwalks and such, is all that's missing IMO. Their scuffle around the missle was far too short IMO (c'mon, Wai Lin is a trained agent, she can hold her breath for like 7, 8 minutes or so ). End it the way it ended, but have a lot more fun getting there, they spent too much time all through the film for Bond and Stamper to not get their fist fight on at the end of it. The more simple Bond-centric ending is another reason why I prefer TND over the Gilbert Bonds, the more serious tone helps too. Better action scenes, best female character in Paris, Dr. Kaufman...lots of fun stuff.
I do agree that Paris was my favorite Brosnan girl. I think she should have been the main girl and Wai Lin should have been Carver's henchwoman instead(although that may have made the film "too similar" to GE). However, I prefer Lewis Gilbert's films to TND. They have more of a "classic" feel to them IMHO. And I adore the big final battle sequences between an army of good guys vs. an army of bad guys, especially the Ninja battles in YOLT.
I'm kinda down on the whole Brosnan era right now. After seeing how great CR is, I feel like were finally getting the remaining Dalton-type Bond films that we were denied since 1990. By comparison, Brosnan's era just kinda seems more like "Remington Steele's Roger Moore" instead of "Ian Fleming's James Bond" and if I want to watch Roger Moore, I'd rather watch the real Roger Moore, instead of the Moore knockoff.
And HMD, I'll say this about TWINE-Maria Grazia Cucinotta and Sophie Marceau are well cast as the film's villainesses. It's just too bad they could not have appeared in a Bond film with a better script and director.
I do agree that Paris was my favorite Brosnan girl. I think she should have been the main girl and Wai Lin should have been Carver's henchwoman instead(although that may have made the film "too similar" to GE). However, I prefer Lewis Gilbert's films to TND. They have more of a "classic" feel to them IMHO. And I adore the big final battle sequences between an army of good guys vs. an army of bad guys, especially the Ninja battles in YOLT.
I'm kinda down on the whole Brosnan era right now. After seeing how great CR is, I feel like were finally getting the remaining Dalton-type Bond films that we were denied since 1990. By comparison, Brosnan's era just kinda seems more like "Remington Steele's Roger Moore" instead of "Ian Fleming's James Bond" and if I want to watch Roger Moore, I'd rather watch the real Roger Moore, instead of the Moore knockoff.
And HMD, I'll say this about TWINE-Maria Grazia Cucinotta and Sophie Marceau are well cast as the film's villainesses. It's just too bad they could not have appeared in a Bond film with a better script and director.
I'm afraid that I don't agree. And I don't have a high opinion of either movie. In fact, TND seemed like an extended remake of a LOIS AND CLARK episode I had once seen back in its first season.
HAHA! Good stuff...tho really, Teri does not exude here like she did in season one of L&C...but I know the one you mean, with Dean Stockwell as the Jonathan Pryce character.
Line from DAF: "Is Superman giving you any trouble?"
I'm afraid that I don't agree. And I don't have a high opinion of either movie. In fact, TND seemed like an extended remake of a LOIS AND CLARK episode I had once seen back in its first season.
HAHA! Good stuff...tho really, Teri does not exude here like she did in season one of L&C...but I know the one you mean, with Dean Stockwell as the Jonathan Pryce character.
Line from DAF: "Is Superman giving you any trouble?"
I'll need to catch that episode. I was a big L & C fan(hence I liked Teri a lot). Do you have the name of it?
I definitely prefer TND to TWINE. First of all, I liked Wei Lin much more than Elektra or Christmas.
Also, was it just me, or did TWINE seem terribly disjointed? Bond also seemed quite unBond-like at moments. What was with all the rejection of Elektra early on? That's not any Bond I'm familiar with.
Also, was it just me, or did TWINE seem terribly disjointed? Bond also seemed quite unBond-like at moments. What was with all the rejection of Elektra early on? That's not any Bond I'm familiar with.
From reading Raymond Benson's novel, I think he wasn't wanting to allow her to get "too close". However you're right. It didn't seem like Bond at all to me. It seemed like some silly soap opera/romance novel rather than Bond.
I can't see Sean Connery's Bond putting up with any of Elektra's malarkey or acting like the "sensitive 90s Bond" we saw in TWINE. Not after the way he handled Fiona Volpe in TB. The minute Connery's Bond would have figured out Elektra was a baddie(which I don't think would have taken him nearly so long. I think he would have noticed that the parahawks never shot at her but only him.), Elektra would have been toast. Connery would have eliminated her in a second without a regret or second thought.
Also, was it just me, or did TWINE seem terribly disjointed? Bond also seemed quite unBond-like at moments. What was with all the rejection of Elektra early on? That's not any Bond I'm familiar with.
From reading Raymond Benson's novel, I think he wasn't wanting to allow her to get "too close". However you're right. It didn't seem like Bond at all to me. It seemed like some silly soap opera/romance novel rather than Bond.
I can't see Sean Connery's Bond putting up with any of Elektra's malarkey or acting like the "sensitive 90s Bond" we saw in TWINE. Not after the way he handled Fiona Volpe in TB. The minute Connery's Bond would have figured out Elektra was a baddie(which I don't think would have taken him nearly so long. I think he would have noticed that the parahawks never shot at her but only him.), Elektra would have been toast. Connery would have eliminated her in a second without a regret or second thought.
Yes but we never saw Connery in love with a girl, thats the difference.
And yea it is a bit un-bond how bond is fooled. But it doesnt hurt my interpretation of it because he pays back by killing elekta.
Also, was it just me, or did TWINE seem terribly disjointed? Bond also seemed quite unBond-like at moments. What was with all the rejection of Elektra early on? That's not any Bond I'm familiar with.
From reading Raymond Benson's novel, I think he wasn't wanting to allow her to get "too close". However you're right. It didn't seem like Bond at all to me. It seemed like some silly soap opera/romance novel rather than Bond.
I can't see Sean Connery's Bond putting up with any of Elektra's malarkey or acting like the "sensitive 90s Bond" we saw in TWINE. Not after the way he handled Fiona Volpe in TB. The minute Connery's Bond would have figured out Elektra was a baddie(which I don't think would have taken him nearly so long. I think he would have noticed that the parahawks never shot at her but only him.), Elektra would have been toast. Connery would have eliminated her in a second without a regret or second thought.
Yes but we never saw Connery in love with a girl, thats the difference.
And yea it is a bit un-bond how bond is fooled. But it doesnt hurt my interpretation of it because he pays back by killing elekta.
Yeah, but he begs and pleads with her and mourns over her body after executing her. That all seemed kinda silly to me. Also, why is Bond "in love" with Elektra? He barely knows this chick! Bond didn't fall in love with Tracy that fast in OHMSS. And in CR, Bond took his time before falling for Vesper. The callous womanizer we know and love would be a little hesistant before allowing a woman to get that close to him but Brosnan's Bond gets all mushy over seeing her cry on a video screen. Another reason why TWINE's script falls short. I could only buy this scenario if TWINE was somehow a prequel showing Bond in his early years and he wasn't as knowledgeable about women yet. Which means TWINE must have happened both pre-DN and pre-CR.
YOu look at the Bond/Tracy or Bond/Vesper relationships, they all seemed to take place over a fair amount of time.
Bond meet Elektra, and the very next day Bond was meeting Renard at the Khazakhstan facility and suspecting Elektra. How much would he have felt for her in less than one day?
And yea it is a bit un-bond how bond is fooled. But it doesnt hurt my interpretation of it because he pays back by killing elekta.
I think the reason Bond was 'fooled' by Electra was because (the development of the screenplay aside) she reminded him of Tracey and so his desire to have a relationship with a Tracey part 2 blinded him in a sense. I personally don't agree that it's unBondian (Bond has been sensitive before; he got married in OHMSS) especially since, as you noted, he killed her in the end. -{
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Also, why is Bond "in love" with Elektra? He barely knows this chick! Bond didn't fall in love with Tracy that fast in OHMSS. And in CR, Bond took his time before falling for Vesper.
I agree that the screenplay for TWINE was very undeveloped but so IMO was CR's, and to a lesser extent OHMSS's.
In OHMSS, although I was convinced that Bond and Tracey were in love, they still fell in love after a montage featuring a Louis Armstrong song.
As fr CR; well, while I believe that Bond felt feelings for Vesper (although I''m not entirely certain that he 'loved' her) I am far from conncinced that Vesper felt anything for Bond at all. Part of this was Green's performance (which I disliked) but also an extremely undeveloped screenplay which featured (IMO) terrible dialogue such as ”I have no armour left. You've stripped it from me. Whatever is left of me - whatever is left of me - whatever I am - I'm yours.” It is that kind of dialogue which I think is best suited for Oprah! ) Anyway, I think that the relationship between Bond and Vesper was seriously rushed.
I agree that TWINE was extremely undeveloped but I don't think it takes away from the execution of Electra. Also, while I think the relationship was far more convincing in OHMSS (which I also think was slightly undeveloped), I don't think that the relationship in TWINE was less developed than in CR; for one thing, I think TWINE featured far more convincing and superior dialogue than in CR.
Nonetheless, I don't think real emotional (romantic) intensity has ever been a strength of the series, and of the films of the past decade in particular.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
As fr CR; well, while I believe that Bond felt feelings for Vesper (although I''m not entirely certain that he 'loved' her) I am far from conncinced that Vesper felt anything for Bond at all. Part of this was Green's performance (which I disliked) but also an extremely undeveloped screenplay which featured (IMO) terrible dialogue such as ”I have no armour left. You've stripped it from me. Whatever is left of me - whatever is left of me - whatever I am - I'm yours.” It is that kind of dialogue which I think is best suited for Oprah! ) Anyway, I think that the relationship between Bond and Vesper was seriously rushed.
Nonetheless, I don't think real emotional (romantic) intensity has ever been a strength of the series, and of the films of the past decade in particular.
?:)
What? GE, TWINE & CR have had the best romantic storylines out of any of the bond films put together.
The chemistry between Connery and his girls was crap! The best example of chemestry before PB was TLD, TSWLM and OHMSS and that was taking it easy.
I thought that the dialouge between Bond and Vesper was great, especially when she gets tears in her eyes. :x
I still think you couldn't better OHMSS for romance- the whole film is pretty much perfection in my mind, though. Yes, even Lazenby.
The Connery era tended to shy away from romantic involvement for Bond. This is why I think some of his films have such a 'cold' feel compared to later ones. But then, his Bond was a much 'colder' character anyway, imo, and much more detached than the others in character. All the other actors' Bond have been more complicated- Connery himself was unsatisfied with the lack of depth in character of Thunderball and You Only Live Twice (which is DEFINITELY justified, imo) and I think that's probably why he left alongside his dissatisfaction with the paparazzi.
What? GE, TWINE & CR have had the best romantic storylines out of any of the bond films put together.
Mind if I disagree? The best romantic storyline of any Bond film IMO was OHMSS. GE was great, but I don't think it was nearly as good as OHMSSS. I wasn't overly impressed with TWINE (which IMO was still a great film) and I was much less impressed with CR.
The chemistry between Connery and his girls was crap! The best example of chemestry before PB was TLD, TSWLM and OHMSS and that was taking it easy.
I don't agree that the chemistry in any of the Connery films was crap, however I do agree that they weren't particularly romantic. I also disagree that there was any real chemistry in TLD. Regarding the Brosnan films, OHMSS and CR; I was convinced of the chemistry in GE but not so much in TWINE (although I thought Brosnan was fantastic in that film,) I was convinced of the chemistry in OHMSS but I wasn't convinced of the chemistry (mostly from Green's end) in CR. (I was also very convinced of the chemistry in TSWLM.)
I thought that the dialouge between Bond and Vesper was great, especially when she gets tears in her eyes. :x
I disagree. I thought that the dialogue in CR was horrible and I am astounded that the film's screenplay is being nominated for all of these awards. But feel free to disagree with me if you like. -{
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Comments
I don't know if he was always reluctant. But in regards to Electra, I would imagine that he was as he was seemingly in love with her (although their relationship was quite undeveloped.) I don't think he enjoyed killing her as demonstrated by the death scene, one of the all-time great moments IMO. So, is Bond reluctant to kill? Often not, but IMO he was in the case of Electra.
Without question, one of the very best moments of the Pierce Brosnan era. However, some of the edge is taken off that scene by the way he hovers over Elektra's body after he has shot her. For me, it would have been better if he had just stood where he was and given Elektra's body a remorseful glance before turning and jumping into the water.
Im not saying Best Bond, but best peformance BY PB.
I think that he is at his best in TWINE, because he finnaly has been given a good director (cannot include GE because it was PB's first and hasnt warmed to the role)
I would say that GE is his 2nd best, but he is strong enough in it to get my 1st place.
"Better make that two."
That is a tough call. because while I think he had a terrible crop of movies, I simply loved him as James Bond. I'd dont think he actually gave a bad performance in any outing.
Ok then, which movie made PB shine as a real actor.
Here is an example:
SC: FRWL
RM: FYEO
TD: TND
PB: TWINE
They are all great actors, yes. But which movie do they have chance to act like they can.
"Better make that two."
Don't you mean TLD for TD?
Anyhow, as to the main question. I prefer TND to TWINE. Sure, of all Brosnan Bonds,TND is the most formulaic and least ambitious from a storytelling perspective with it basically being a remake of YOLT and TSWLM. However, it seems to go with the attitude "we're going to take the Bond formula and streamline it and make the fastest moving Bond picture yet for ADD viewers" and succeeds on that level. On the other hand, TWINE bites off more than it can chew. It tries to be Brosnan's OHMSS but messes it up by mixing it with elements of AVTAK. Also, TND at least compares somewhat favorably with Lewis Gilbert films it emulates. TWINE really seems lame next to the vastly superior OHMSS and the recent brilliant CR. Like OHMSS and CR, TWINE should have had the courage to end the film tragically with no "second Bond girl in the wings to give him a happy ending." Also, the soap opera theatrics in TWINE really get annoying while TND just simply has fun. TND's pre title sequence is more exciting than TWINE's and David Arnold's TND score easily beats his TWINE score . I think Brosnan also generates more sparks with Teri Hatcher's Paris than he does with Sophie Marceau's Elektra despite the fact that Teri had far less screentime. I didn't care for either Wai Lin or Christmas Jones. In both TND and TWINE, the Bond girl that ends up dead instead of with Bond is more interesting than the main girl.
So, I vote for TND.
Yes I do mean TLD for Dalton.
Each to their own and I respect your point of view. But IMO the only comparison to OHMSS is the emotional aspect and the moto. TND has plenty of cool elements but there is no substance at all to them. TWINE is a caper for bond, TND is a silly run around americanisation.
That attitude of a director or EON "we're going to take the Bond formula and streamline it and make the fastest moving Bond picture yet for ADD viewers" is weak and pathetic, thats just like saying were making a something exactly like the last 40 years. Bond often needs something fresh like CR, which makes people feel that there is actully something going on here. No bimbo WAI LIN who sucks, some 'nothing to do with continuity stuck-in' Paris Carver, Cliche Villian and Henchman and boring running shoot em up, bring back Jack Wade bull****.
TND is worse than DAD.
"Better make that two."
Don't get me wrong. I think CR is better than all 4 Brosnan Bond films put together. I love fresh and willingness to take some risks with the formula, hence I didn't care for AVTAK(probably the stalest and most-stuck-to-formula-Bond-film ever) and preferred Dalton's 2 entries which at least mixed up the formula a bit. However, my point was that TND never pretends to be more than 2 hours of silly escapism and pretty much delivers on its promises. It was the most formulaic Bond film since AVTAK 12 years earlier but after the gap in films and the changes we saw in TLD, LTK and GE, a return to the "safe" formula was fun again. On the other hand, TWINE tries to be a more "serious" Bond film in the vein of FRWL/OHMSS/TLD and now CR but falls woefully short of the 1963, 1969, 1987 and 2006 entries IMHO.
CR is the "next classic Bond film" I've been waiting for since TLD.
Yes i would definatly agree with that, but would you say that why people dont like TND (not in comparison with TWINE) is because of a boring and tired formula? Look at why we dont like DAD, TND, AVTAK, MR (some of us), YOLT etc....
"Better make that two."
I do agree with you, HMD, that Brosnan has some good scenes in TWINE, but that's as far as I can go with that film.
Side note: what's with Bond plus an army of commando-type dudes storming the villian's lair at the end of XYZ Bond film? It was cute in TB, made sense (and was dramatically scaled down, thank goodness) in OHMSS...and that's it. The rest--YOLT, DAF, TSWLM, MR, OP (but points for originality, even if it was uber-silly)--seem baggy and draggy. I know the end of TND gets ragged on, but I thought Bond trying to disable or make the stealth ship show up on radar was a nice change of pace to the old fashioned commando raid. Seems a very Bond-like thing to do, target the engine room and the hull, in a nice Bond-like setting. The whole submarine part of TWINE--heck Elektra's entire plot--seemed really random and why bother when there are so many ways to achieve her objective that don't require, say, kidnapping the head of British Secret Service... 8-) It was all too silly to get behind, and handled with Glen-like ineptitude. And as much as I like Bond going after the big bad on his own at the end of a Bond film, diving after a nuclear submarine made me laugh out loud, sorry. Like the rest of TND, the end is simple and clear, and still holds up just fine because of that--a knock-down, drag-out fist fight between Bond and Stamper, carried out on all those great catwalks and such, is all that's missing IMO. Their scuffle around the missle was far too short IMO (c'mon, Wai Lin is a trained agent, she can hold her breath for like 7, 8 minutes or so
I'm rambling now, I'll stop.
I would have to say that Gilberts best is TSWLM and Roger was much more interesting to watch than the 'bring nothing to it' Sean Connery YOLT. Knowing that SC is bored really effects the picture and compared to TSWLM you dont feel a thing from SC when you really do from RM, eg, action scenes, stromberg scenes, difusing bomb etc.
I think that this all relates to TND, where there is actully something interesting happening to the main character.
Everything with Elektra I feel is justified, TND just feels tired and boring, suffering from DAD syndrome.
PB always gives the best he can, and you can tell, but in TWINE he is finnaly given something meaty.
I still think its fun to watch, but on a quality level, it stinks.
"Better make that two."
I do agree that Paris was my favorite Brosnan girl. I think she should have been the main girl and Wai Lin should have been Carver's henchwoman instead(although that may have made the film "too similar" to GE). However, I prefer Lewis Gilbert's films to TND. They have more of a "classic" feel to them IMHO. And I adore the big final battle sequences between an army of good guys vs. an army of bad guys, especially the Ninja battles in YOLT.
I'm kinda down on the whole Brosnan era right now. After seeing how great CR is, I feel like were finally getting the remaining Dalton-type Bond films that we were denied since 1990. By comparison, Brosnan's era just kinda seems more like "Remington Steele's Roger Moore" instead of "Ian Fleming's James Bond" and if I want to watch Roger Moore, I'd rather watch the real Roger Moore, instead of the Moore knockoff.
And HMD, I'll say this about TWINE-Maria Grazia Cucinotta and Sophie Marceau are well cast as the film's villainesses. It's just too bad they could not have appeared in a Bond film with a better script and director.
Good post, and yea
"Better make that two."
HAHA! Good stuff...tho really, Teri does not exude here like she did in season one of L&C...but I know the one you mean, with Dean Stockwell as the Jonathan Pryce character.
Line from DAF: "Is Superman giving you any trouble?"
I'll need to catch that episode. I was a big L & C fan(hence I liked Teri a lot). Do you have the name of it?
Also, was it just me, or did TWINE seem terribly disjointed? Bond also seemed quite unBond-like at moments. What was with all the rejection of Elektra early on? That's not any Bond I'm familiar with.
From reading Raymond Benson's novel, I think he wasn't wanting to allow her to get "too close". However you're right. It didn't seem like Bond at all to me. It seemed like some silly soap opera/romance novel rather than Bond.
I can't see Sean Connery's Bond putting up with any of Elektra's malarkey or acting like the "sensitive 90s Bond" we saw in TWINE. Not after the way he handled Fiona Volpe in TB. The minute Connery's Bond would have figured out Elektra was a baddie(which I don't think would have taken him nearly so long. I think he would have noticed that the parahawks never shot at her but only him.), Elektra would have been toast. Connery would have eliminated her in a second without a regret or second thought.
Yes but we never saw Connery in love with a girl, thats the difference.
And yea it is a bit un-bond how bond is fooled. But it doesnt hurt my interpretation of it because he pays back by killing elekta.
"Better make that two."
Yeah, but he begs and pleads with her and mourns over her body after executing her. That all seemed kinda silly to me. Also, why is Bond "in love" with Elektra? He barely knows this chick! Bond didn't fall in love with Tracy that fast in OHMSS. And in CR, Bond took his time before falling for Vesper. The callous womanizer we know and love would be a little hesistant before allowing a woman to get that close to him but Brosnan's Bond gets all mushy over seeing her cry on a video screen. Another reason why TWINE's script falls short. I could only buy this scenario if TWINE was somehow a prequel showing Bond in his early years and he wasn't as knowledgeable about women yet. Which means TWINE must have happened both pre-DN and pre-CR.
And good points in general about Bond in TWINE...or is it Oprah-Bond?
Bond meet Elektra, and the very next day Bond was meeting Renard at the Khazakhstan facility and suspecting Elektra. How much would he have felt for her in less than one day?
"Better make that two."
In OHMSS, although I was convinced that Bond and Tracey were in love, they still fell in love after a montage featuring a Louis Armstrong song.
As fr CR; well, while I believe that Bond felt feelings for Vesper (although I''m not entirely certain that he 'loved' her) I am far from conncinced that Vesper felt anything for Bond at all. Part of this was Green's performance (which I disliked) but also an extremely undeveloped screenplay which featured (IMO) terrible dialogue such as ”I have no armour left. You've stripped it from me. Whatever is left of me - whatever is left of me - whatever I am - I'm yours.”
I agree that TWINE was extremely undeveloped but I don't think it takes away from the execution of Electra. Also, while I think the relationship was far more convincing in OHMSS (which I also think was slightly undeveloped), I don't think that the relationship in TWINE was less developed than in CR; for one thing, I think TWINE featured far more convincing and superior dialogue than in CR.
Nonetheless, I don't think real emotional (romantic) intensity has ever been a strength of the series, and of the films of the past decade in particular.
?:)
What? GE, TWINE & CR have had the best romantic storylines out of any of the bond films put together.
The chemistry between Connery and his girls was crap! The best example of chemestry before PB was TLD, TSWLM and OHMSS and that was taking it easy.
I thought that the dialouge between Bond and Vesper was great, especially when she gets tears in her eyes. :x
"Better make that two."
The Connery era tended to shy away from romantic involvement for Bond. This is why I think some of his films have such a 'cold' feel compared to later ones. But then, his Bond was a much 'colder' character anyway, imo, and much more detached than the others in character. All the other actors' Bond have been more complicated- Connery himself was unsatisfied with the lack of depth in character of Thunderball and You Only Live Twice (which is DEFINITELY justified, imo) and I think that's probably why he left alongside his dissatisfaction with the paparazzi.
"Better make that two."
I don't agree that the chemistry in any of the Connery films was crap, however I do agree that they weren't particularly romantic. I also disagree that there was any real chemistry in TLD. Regarding the Brosnan films, OHMSS and CR; I was convinced of the chemistry in GE but not so much in TWINE (although I thought Brosnan was fantastic in that film,) I was convinced of the chemistry in OHMSS but I wasn't convinced of the chemistry (mostly from Green's end) in CR. (I was also very convinced of the chemistry in TSWLM.)
I disagree. I thought that the dialogue in CR was horrible and I am astounded that the film's screenplay is being nominated for all of these awards. But feel free to disagree with me if you like.