While I do believe that Bond had feelings with with Vesper (due to Craig's acting in the death scene) I am not convinced that he loved her; at least not in the same way that I am convinced that Bond was in love with Tracey. This is really due to the script as I felt that Bond's and Vesper's relationship was enormously undeveloped; far more so than in OHMSS. Dialogue such as "I have no armour left. You've stripped it from me. Whatever is left of me - whatever is left of me - whatever I am - I'm yours" certainly didn't help matters. Plus, it has to be said, that the suicide scene aside, I still wasn't convinced that Bond loved Vesper or that he really cared about her. Although this is mostly due to the script (I consider the romance to have be far too sudden) it was also due to Craig's performance.
Then there's Vesper. While I believe that Tracey loved Bond (Rigg's acting aside, she went all the way to Switzerland just to see Bond) I don't even know if Vesper cared about Bond. As well being due to the script which I think was much less undeveloped than in OHMSS, I place much of the blame on Green whom IMO delivered a horrible performance. I would dearly have loved for her not to have played Vesper. I actually think that Caterina Murino could have done a better job.
Basically, while I know that Bond and Tracey were in love, I don't have nearly the same reaction to Bond and Vesper. That's why the suicide scene was IMO so ineffective. Although it was demonstrated in that scene that Bond did care about Vesper*, I'm not convinced that it was love, and I certainly don't know wether Vesper was fond of Bond in the slightest or was just annoyed that the money had been lost.
You weren't sure about Bond's feelings? Gee Dan, in the beach scene he tells her he loves her. As for Vesper, the whole point is that while she does love Bond, she also is betraying him. She didn't expect to fall in love with him, but did. That of course complicates things and is unsettling to her. Her situation is a bit more complicated than Tracy's, so if Green plays her a bit on the ambivalent or tentative side, that's a wise choice in my estimation. I would also add that it is absolutely true to the novel. The kind of doubts you expresss are the same as Bond's in the book. Most of the last third of it concerns Bond's puzzlement at Vesper's apparently on-again, off-again feelings for him. Get a copy of the book and check it out and tell me that's not correct. So it seems to me that Green nailed the role, but you fail to recognize it because it wasn't a more by-the-numbers, woman-in-love performance like the one delivered in OHMSS by Rigg and so many other actresses in so many other movies. It strikes me that it's going to be hard for the filmmakers to attempt to portray any kind of "real" human emotion, which usually doesn't conform to the comfortable cliches of the movies. But I think most people understood Vesper's tentativeness for what it was.
HH, I'm beginning to wonder:
-- Are you financially vested in CR?
-- Are you personal friends with the filmmakers or performers?
-- Are you actually Paul Haggis posting under an alias?
-- Is there a vast anti-CR cabal I'm not aware of that poses a threat to life as we know it?
What else could possibly compel you to answer critiques of the film with such ridicule and condescension?
None of the above. Just being an SOB, I guess.
Hill: I read a good many posts from a good many people -- I'll bet even a few from you, though I can't say I keep score -- in which opinions are expressed in strong terms. For me, the best of them are challenging, informative, insightful, crisply written, reasoned, witty, sarcastic and always over-the-top if you stop and consider if the subject of the debate -- an imaginary character named James Bond -- is really worth the energy expended (they are never angry, however). Now Dan and the rest of the "cabal" are perfectly capable of tossing a missive my way that meets that criteria, and have on more than one occasion. I hope to be pelted with a few more, not because I'm masochistic, but because I enjoy the repartee. It's like a Tracy-Hepburn film, or an Algonquin Table for Bond geeks. I don't think for one moment that their purpose is to send me into a spiral of despair. They're just goofing off on a James Bond fan blog. well, so am I.
The day that a rebuttal of any my opinions on James Bond causes me any real grief will be the day I check out from the site. But I am disappointed that you don't like my posts. I actually spend quite a bit of time crafting them so that they will be entertaining to read. In fact, that's what Neal and I were trying to do in Casino ... Damn !!!! -- Me and my big mouth ...
HH, I'm beginning to wonder:
-- Are you financially vested in CR?
-- Are you personal friends with the filmmakers or performers?
-- Are you actually Paul Haggis posting under an alias?
-- Is there a vast anti-CR cabal I'm not aware of that poses a threat to life as we know it?
None of the above. Just being an SOB, I guess.
Oh damn, I was hoping I would be able to:
-- Congratulate you on your share of the box office.
-- Pester you to introduce me to Caterina Murino.
-- Tell you I loved your screenplay.
-- Thank you for alerting me to the global terror threat.
Hill: I read a good many posts from a good many people -- I'll bet even a few from you, though I can't say I keep score -- in which opinions are expressed in strong terms. For me, the best of them are challenging, informative, insightful, crisply written, reasoned, witty, sarcastic and always over-the-top if you stop and consider if the subject of the debate -- an imaginary character named James Bond -- is really worth the energy expended (they are never angry, however). Now Dan and the rest of the "cabal" are perfectly capable of tossing a missive my way that meets that criteria, and have on more than one occasion. I hope to be pelted with a few more, not because I'm masochistic, but because I enjoy the repartee. It's like a Tracy-Hepburn film, or an Algonquin Table for Bond geeks. I don't think for one moment that their purpose is to send me into a spiral of despair. They're just goofing off on a James Bond fan blog. well, so am I.
The day that a rebuttal of any my opinions on James Bond causes me any real grief will be the day I check out from the site. But I am disappointed that you don't like my posts. I actually spend quite a bit of time crafting them so that they will be entertaining to read.
Not that you can or should care, but it was only the one post to Dan that I objected to. I suppose I suffer from the twin personality flaws of over-sensitivity and the inability to just let things go. Got too much nosy defense lawyer in me, I guess -- after all, Dan has again and again shown himself more than capable of rising to his own defense. )
In the broader scheme of things, while my occasional outbursts are not very tactful or nice, I hope you can appreciate as at least appreciate their honesty (a quality that's easy to forgo in this anonymous environment).
In other news (sorry Sir Hillary), Bond has five equals and they are first, Natalya, secondly, Tracy, thirdly, Pam, fourthly, Pussy and fifthly..............................................................
I suppose I suffer from the twin personality flaws of over-sensitivity and the inability to just let things go. Got too much nosy defense lawyer in me, I guess -- after all, Dan has again and again shown himself more than capable of rising to his own defense. )
In the broader scheme of things, while my occasional outbursts are not very tactful or nice, I hope you can appreciate as at least appreciate their honesty (a quality that's easy to forgo in this anonymous environment).
You can't let things go? How many maniacally detailed posts have I written about -- mmmmm -- the day the scene in the museum takes place in the movie, an issue of paramount importance. Sure I feel dirty afterwards, but I keep going back. And you know something? The DVD will vindicate me -- you watch. )
And I certainly do appreciate your honesty and your posts, as I appreciate everyone's.
But I have to say I disagree with you that I was being condescending. I thought I was clearly being patronizing by haughtily telling Dan to consult the novel. :007)
Sorry JFF, but Jenny Flex has very little screen time, and the most memorable thing she does in AVTAK is drown. I checked in the book Bond Girls Are Forever and there is no mention of JF. Even Dink from Goldfinger merits a couple lines in the book.
While I certainly agree that Alison Doody is a very pretty woman, I am constantly lost for an understanding why you think this character is so damned important, other than a young man's fantasy crush. Care to explain?
If you caught the wink, you'll notice I was joking about the Jenny Flex part. Still though, if she had been given more of a chance...
And sorry RJJB, the most memorable thing Jenny did in AVTAK was sexily walk down the stairs, do her dialogue w/ Roger, then sexily walk UP the stairs w/ double-entendre dialogue w/ Roger.
Jenny is amazing RJJB, and one day I'll hope you can see that too.
It sounds like you're telling me that you want all the Bond leading women to be some clothes hanger who has to be rescued by Bond, every now and then. The idea of a Bond leading lady being an agent seems to bother the lot of you. There was nothing wrong with Wai Lin and Jinx . . . except that they did more than look pretty and waited around for Bond to rescue them.
Yes, there were moments when Bond had to save their lives. SO . . . WHAT? If Bond's life had to be saved every now and then by another character, why not leading ladies like Jixn and Wai Lin? They have to be "perfect" or "near perfect" to be considered Bond's equal? Bond isn't perfect. Why should they have to be?
If you don't mind me saying Fish, I think you are missing the gist of my intitial, and many of the subsequent posts. I haven't got a problem with strong female characters, far from it, my argument is that they have existed all through the Bond franchise.
On top of that, I haven't got a problem with the Wai Lin and Jinx characters (except for the fact that I found Jinx rather charmless, but that's another point!)
My problem is some of the recent actresses feeling they have to justify their existance in a Bond movie by claiming to be an equal with Bond, as I feel this demeens the strong female characters who have gone before them.
By turning the thread into a feminist thing, which rightly or wrongly is how i'm perceiving your posts, I think you're way off beam!
Comments
None of the above. Just being an SOB, I guess.
Hill: I read a good many posts from a good many people -- I'll bet even a few from you, though I can't say I keep score -- in which opinions are expressed in strong terms. For me, the best of them are challenging, informative, insightful, crisply written, reasoned, witty, sarcastic and always over-the-top if you stop and consider if the subject of the debate -- an imaginary character named James Bond -- is really worth the energy expended (they are never angry, however). Now Dan and the rest of the "cabal" are perfectly capable of tossing a missive my way that meets that criteria, and have on more than one occasion. I hope to be pelted with a few more, not because I'm masochistic, but because I enjoy the repartee. It's like a Tracy-Hepburn film, or an Algonquin Table for Bond geeks. I don't think for one moment that their purpose is to send me into a spiral of despair. They're just goofing off on a James Bond fan blog. well, so am I.
The day that a rebuttal of any my opinions on James Bond causes me any real grief will be the day I check out from the site. But I am disappointed that you don't like my posts. I actually spend quite a bit of time crafting them so that they will be entertaining to read.
-- Congratulate you on your share of the box office.
-- Pester you to introduce me to Caterina Murino.
-- Tell you I loved your screenplay.
-- Thank you for alerting me to the global terror threat.
Not that you can or should care, but it was only the one post to Dan that I objected to. I suppose I suffer from the twin personality flaws of over-sensitivity and the inability to just let things go. Got too much nosy defense lawyer in me, I guess -- after all, Dan has again and again shown himself more than capable of rising to his own defense.
In the broader scheme of things, while my occasional outbursts are not very tactful or nice, I hope you can appreciate as at least appreciate their honesty (a quality that's easy to forgo in this anonymous environment).
I asked for that one -- well-done.
But enough of this goo-fest...let the pelting continue! {:)
While we're at it, let's get this thread back on topic. I'll start...BOND HAS NO FRIGGIN' EQUALS!!!...man, that's better than going to the gym.
Jenny Flex.
You can't let things go? How many maniacally detailed posts have I written about -- mmmmm -- the day the scene in the museum takes place in the movie, an issue of paramount importance. Sure I feel dirty afterwards, but I keep going back. And you know something? The DVD will vindicate me -- you watch.
And I certainly do appreciate your honesty and your posts, as I appreciate everyone's.
But I have to say I disagree with you that I was being condescending. I thought I was clearly being patronizing by haughtily telling Dan to consult the novel. :007)
Sorry JFF, but Jenny Flex has very little screen time, and the most memorable thing she does in AVTAK is drown. I checked in the book Bond Girls Are Forever and there is no mention of JF. Even Dink from Goldfinger merits a couple lines in the book.
While I certainly agree that Alison Doody is a very pretty woman, I am constantly lost for an understanding why you think this character is so damned important, other than a young man's fantasy crush. Care to explain?
BTW highhopes, are you sure that patronising is quite the right word for that particular context...
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Very clever, Nape. I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath for Purvis and Wade to defend my writing.
And sorry RJJB, the most memorable thing Jenny did in AVTAK was sexily walk down the stairs, do her dialogue w/ Roger, then sexily walk UP the stairs w/ double-entendre dialogue w/ Roger.
Jenny is amazing RJJB, and one day I'll hope you can see that too.