"Fan" might be a bit strong. I did enjoy it considerably more than TLD overall-- I always liked Davi's villan in that, and I personally think it's a much better showcase of Dalton's strengths than TLD was. For what it's worth I also liked it more than all of Brosnan's films and all but 4 of Moore's.
"Fan" might be a bit strong. I did enjoy it considerably more than TLD overall-- I always liked Davi's villan in that, and I personally think it's a much better showcase of Dalton's strengths than TLD was. For what it's worth I also liked it more than all of Brosnan's films and all but 4 of Moore's.
LTK does have a stronger villain and its girls are more classically beautiful(even though Pam's personality gets on my nerves.) However, I prefer TLD because of its Cold War backdrop, John Barry score and general "feel" as well as its fidelity to Fleming's short story(the last Fleming title novel film for the next 19 years) and the fact that TLD was such a rejuvenating shot in the arm for the series after the tired disaster known as AVTAK.
You ought to post your rankings for 11-21. I'd like to see how you rate the remaining films.
Both of the Dalton movies are pretty good, imho, if slightly flawed. As for the man himself, I like his edgier approach but I guess he would rank as my least fave Bond because of the scripts rather than his portrayal. The scripts didn't really recognise that his achilles' heel was the one liners- IMO, he just couldn't handle them very well. I would also agree that to an extent, he did lack that element of nonchalant cool that Bond is doubtless supposed to have- (I personally think Daniel Craig has that in spades, BTW) but occasionally Dalton looked ill at ease, IMO.
The Living Daylights is a rather good back to basics attempt in the Casino Royale style, with its traditional spy/KGB/defection plot and a slightly grittier feel than the last couple of Moore vehicles. For the most part, it's excellent- a much improved (over AVTAK) Bond girl, some great action scenes. But, that whole 'freedom fighters' subplot and the big battle at the end does nothing for whatsoever, it just feels too bloated for the relatively 'grounded' plot. The villains are fairly weak by Bond standards, especially Brad Whittaker.
Licence To Kill I think suits Timothy Dalton's Bond better, being altogether edgier. The villain Sanchez is one of the best of the series, for my money, and the action sequences are often superb. However, it has dated more than most Bond films, imho, and the casino sequence in the middle of the film sags badly IMO. Both are solid 4/5 entries in the series for me though.
Dalton is my favorite Bond, and I'll go to my grave defending him. His edgier take on Bond really appealed to me. As for the lack of sex appeal, I think that was deliberately downplayed due to the time period.
I'm also probably one of the few that prefers LTK over TLD. TLD has many great qualities, but also feels like they were trying to stretch things out. Granted, the action sequences are some of the best in the series (especially the fight on the big bag of opium.) However, the movie's real weakness is the complete lack of compelling villains. Brad Whitaker is just pathetic.
I like the darker take on the series that LTK offers. It has aged somewhat, but it's still one of the most enjoyable films in the series for me. I really like Sanchez as a villain. He's different than the standard Bond villain.And his death is one of the most satisfying in the whole series.
LazenbyThe upper reaches of the AmazoPosts: 606MI6 Agent
LTK does have a stronger villain and its girls are more classically beautiful(even though Pam's personality gets on my nerves.) However, I prefer TLD because of its Cold War backdrop, John Barry score and general "feel" as well as its fidelity to Fleming's short story
Totally with you on TLD's score.
Raymond Benson claimed that, though the title was different, LTK captured "succinctly" the spirit of Fleming's LALD. Does that count?
You ought to post your rankings for 11-21. I'd like to see how you rate the remaining films.
Dalton is probably my second favourite Bond after Connery. I saw Licence To Kill recently, and I thoroughly enjoy Dalton's darker portrayal of Bond, especially when Bond was out to avenge Leiter's injuries. Granted that he has weaknesses, and they have already been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but no-one's perfect. Dalton, like Craig, plays the ruthless side of Bond extremely well, and they both make a very believable cold-blooded killer.
for me dalton is the best bond in the series, he brought a gritty harder edge to the character which has only been matched by DC. to say that he was often very tense to me is his strong point. the situations he finds himself in are tense and dangerous and any normal human being in those situations would be tense. bond is a man not a comic book superhero and imho only TD and DC have played him that way.
for me dalton is the best bond in the series, he brought a gritty harder edge to the character which has only been matched by DC. to say that he was often very tense to me is his strong point. the situations he finds himself in are tense and dangerous and any normal human being in those situations would be tense. bond is a man not a comic book superhero and imho only TD and DC have played him that way.
What about Connery? How he played the scenes when Bond shot Professor Dent, then dealt with Dr No; his hand to hand fight with Grant, eventually stabbing him with a knife; how he shot Vargus with a spear gun, and the entire DAF PTS ... you can't tell me that's comic book stuff. Connery has had his bad films, sure, but at his best, I think he is unbeatable.
I hate Dalton. He is by far my least favourite Bond. What I disliked about him was that it seemed to me that he only ever had one emotion, and his potrayal appeared to me to be quite soulless. I am extremely delighted that he only did two films.
bond is a man not a comic book superhero and imho only TD and DC have played him that way.
I don't think Bond has ever been potrayed as a comic book superhero.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I like the idea of Dalton doing Bond better than the reality, and I'm not really thinking about the scripts but how he approached the character: love the darker tone he did, but he'd drop it on a dime and for all the world do a scene as if he were on a soap opera, all warm and cuddly like. And he was by far the worst when it came to romantic scenes, those were almost like sit-com moments IMO, he looked lost with the women folk. Which was weird. Yeah, some of that was the poor scripts he was given, but his choices left a lot to be desired as well IMO. And, it's not like he put his stamp on the role, I can easily imagine Moore in both his films, or Brosnan even, and in both cases the films are better overall. JMHO. FWIW, I really like Dalton as an actor, and have a great deal of respect for a lot of his other work. But his Bond isn't a high point for me, the intent gets too much buried IMHO.
FWIW, I really like Dalton as an actor, and have a great deal of respect for a lot of his other work.
You know, while I might loathe Dalton's work as 007, I have to say that I do like alot of his other work (I recently saw Hot Fuzz in which he was really good) and I think he's a great guy. I love that he loved being Bond so much. He (along with Moore) is just incredibly gracious about his time as Bond. I think that's great. -{
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
What about Connery? How he played the scenes when Bond shot Professor Dent, then dealt with Dr No; his hand to hand fight with Grant, eventually stabbing him with a knife; how he shot Vargus with a spear gun, and the entire DAF PTS ... you can't tell me that's comic book stuff. Connery has had his bad films, sure, but at his best, I think he is unbeatable.[/quote] that is exactly my point the dalton films were a return to the tone of those early connery films. as much as i love roger and his films they were getting ever more outlandish and veering off into the realm of comic book. dalton and now craig have injected a tone of realism not seen since connery, and craig especially comes over has one tough b*****D which you could never say about moore or brosnan.
I really liked Dalton. He's always been my second favorite after Connery, and I have no idea why...I just like the way he carries himself and the way he acts. I loved LTK (in fact, it's my favorite film...wow, Im in a minority here |)) and felt that maybe (big maybe) he should have done a third film.
You ought to post your rankings for 11-21. I'd like to see how you rate the remaining films.
Done.
Interesting list, Lazenby. 7 films of your top 10 list are also in my top 10. Question: I know TLD isn't one of your favorites but you prefer TWINE to it? Of course you're perfectly entitled to like the films in whatever order you choose as am I and everyone else is. But I find TWINE such a convoluted soap opera mess of a film with Bond acting like a sentimental, naive idiot concerning women. I wonder if TWINE's 007 had ever run across the likes of Helga Brandt or Fiona Volpe before. Imagine FYEO with Melina turning out to be the bad girl and Bibi Dahl turning out to be the main heroine and you get an idea of my opinion of it. I know when EON made TWINE they were aiming for an OHMSS/CR style film for Brosnan but it ended up being an odd mixture of OHMSS and AVTAK, 2 films that definitely do not gel. A classic like OHMSS and the recent success of CR have made TWINE look really weak by comparison in my opinion. The main problem for TWINE's difficulties lay with its script whereas the script for TLD was well-written and Tom Clancy-ish in style. Also, TLD's first 20 minutes make for some of the most accurate depictions of Fleming's writing on screen. Although I prefer Dalton to Brosnan, if Brosnan had made TLD and Dalton had made TWINE, I would still prefer TLD to TWINE mainly because of the script.
Here's a good article on TLD. Both Dalton's fans and critics should find it interesting-
Interesting list, Lazenby. 7 films of your top 10 list are also in my top 10. Question: I know TLD isn't one of your favorites but you prefer TWINE to it?
To give a really fair appraisal I'd have to re-watch TWINE, as it's been a number of years since I've seen it; however I seem to remember enjoying it more than I did TLD. I don't know what it is, but something about Dalton in that movie just doesn't work for me. Like, right from the beginning, when that woman wishes for a "real man"-- and then Timothy Dalton appears. I just didn't buy it. I think I would have enjoyed TLD more if it had been better catered to Dalton's particular strengths (I enjoyed LTK considerably more than TLD for this reason). Also on my nerves were that cello-ski sequence, the "optional extras" line and when he mentions to Koskov that there is a "pipeline" and then gives this half-knowing glance to the camera...didn't work for me.
A classic like OHMSS and the recent success of CR have made TWINE look really weak by comparison in my opinion.
In all honesty (imho)) CR makes every Bond film released after 1969 appear really weak by comparison.
That all being said, since we're dissecting each other's favorites list's here...
YOLT before OHMSS (and TLD before OHMSS...really)? This strikes me as a bit odd for someone who appreciates the more Flemingesque Bonds. And MR before GF and DN? While I myself am a steadfast MR enthusiast, I find that a bit perplexing. Again, I understand perfectly well that you have every right to make your own list according to your own standards/tastes...I'm just commenting. {[]
They were all great Bonds. They played them how they wanted to be. Dalton was slated because we got so used to Roger Moore whose films were full of slapstick humour and ridiculous - just like movies in general during the 70s and 80s. So Roger Moore was suited the role during that period.
Then came Timothy Dalton who was leaner tougher and serious. Unfortunately He became 007 at the wrong time - in the 80s. I think the 90s would of suited him more when movies, in general, were becoming less slapstick with a serious tone. So it was all to do with timing.
Interesting list, Lazenby. 7 films of your top 10 list are also in my top 10. Question: I know TLD isn't one of your favorites but you prefer TWINE to it?
To give a really fair appraisal I'd have to re-watch TWINE, as it's been a number of years since I've seen it; however I seem to remember enjoying it more than I did TLD. I don't know what it is, but something about Dalton in that movie just doesn't work for me. Like, right from the beginning, when that woman wishes for a "real man"-- and then Timothy Dalton appears. I just didn't buy it. I think I would have enjoyed TLD more if it had been better catered to Dalton's particular strengths (I enjoyed LTK considerably more than TLD for this reason). Also on my nerves were that cello-ski sequence, the "optional extras" line and when he mentions to Koskov that there is a "pipeline" and then gives this half-knowing glance to the camera...didn't work for me.
We probably ought to start a TLD vs. TWINE thread to discuss the merits one film vs. the other. It's true that there are some Roger Moore era leftover elements in TLD that, for the most part, don't quite work . Thankfully, TPTB left Dalton's "magic carpet" ride on the cutting room floor. However, I loved after the disappoiting AVTAK seeing TPTB attempt to make a Bond film that at least attempted to appeal a little more to adults and provide a well written spy story in the FRWL tradition with a younger, more serious actor rather than yet another recycling of GF again. I think of TLD as the "advance guard" to the type of Bond film we eventually got in CR.
A classic like OHMSS and the recent success of CR have made TWINE look really weak by comparison in my opinion.
In all honesty (imho)) CR makes every Bond film released after 1969 appear really weak by comparison.
I think CR makes TWINE look especially weak because TWINE was an attempt to be a CR-style Bond film that fell flat. CR didn't really hurt say DAF or TMWTGG for me because I've always thought as those as "fun, action-comedy" Bonds that never pretended to be any thing more than that. TWINE, on the other hand, did promise more and fell woefully short here.
This strikes me as a bit odd for someone who appreciates the more Flemingesque Bonds. And MR before GF and DN? While I myself am a steadfast MR enthusiast, I find that a bit perplexing.
I just have electic tastes. I can love the faithful-to-Fleming Bonds(FRWL, TLD, CR) but I can also love the OTT action comedy Bonds like the Lewis Gilbert films. Also, one faithful-to-Fleming that's loved by many(FYEO) has never been one of my favorites. I don't think it's bad but I've never loved it as much as say FRWL, CR, TLD, TB or CR for example. By the same token, my least favorite Bond film(AVTAK) is one that's firmly in the silly, OTT action comedy Bond that's unfaithful to Fleming camp.
Again, I understand perfectly well that you have every right to make your own list according to your own standards/tastes...I'm just commenting. {[]
Turn about is fair play. The trouble with ratings is that quite a few on my list I really rank about equally but since one has to go ahead of another I usually find something I may slightly prefer and it goes ahead. For example, CR and OHMSS battle it out quite a bit for me but I think they are probably about equal in quality. I also wanted to include a Moore in my top 007 list and I think MR(a highly underrated and sentimental favorite for me since it was the first Bond I saw in the theater as a child) deserves more defenders than it has. Generally speaking my top 10(or I guess 11 now because of CR) list usually includes all 1960s Bonds, TLD, CR and my 3 favorite Moores(MR, OP, TSWLM), though they vary.
I think CR makes TWINE look especially weak because TWINE was an attempt to be a CR-style Bond film that fell flat. CR didn't really hurt say DAF or TMWTGG for me because I've always thought as those as "fun, action-comedy" Bonds that never pretended to be any thing more than that. TWINE, on the other hand, did promise more and fell woefully short here.
I don't think that CR makes TWINE look weak as IMO TWINE was a superior film. However, I certainly agree that one of the biggest flaws of TWINE is that it offers up so many exciting opportunites, yet often falls short.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
LazenbyThe upper reaches of the AmazoPosts: 606MI6 Agent
That was interesting; thanks for posting it-- my vehement dislike of Dalton and that film definitely seems to be a minority opinion.
You're welcome. Vehement dislike? I don't even vehemently dislike my least favorite Bond actor(currently Brosnan) although I did vehemently dislike AVTAK upon initial viewing. I've mellowed since then and upgraded AVTAK to the status of a watchable mediocrity. Aside from Dalton, what's your take on TLD's script? If say your namesake Lazenby for example had done TLD do you think you would like it then?
On another issue, I understand what's it's like to have a minority opinion on a popular Bond film, in my case FYEO
This review reflects my opinion of the 1981 Bond film more than most of the reviews it gets though I'd probably give it ** 1/2 out of **** instead of the mere ** the reviewer gives it -
I think CR makes TWINE look especially weak because TWINE was an attempt to be a CR-style Bond film that fell flat. CR didn't really hurt say DAF or TMWTGG for me because I've always thought as those as "fun, action-comedy" Bonds that never pretended to be any thing more than that. TWINE, on the other hand, did promise more and fell woefully short here.
I don't think that CR makes TWINE look weak as IMO TWINE was a superior film. However, I certainly agree that one of the biggest flaws of TWINE is that it offers up so many exciting opportunites, yet often falls short.
I actually went in to TWINE with high hopes hoping it would be a much better film than it is. I loved Braveheart and I thought Sophie Marceau certainly performed well in her role. However, TWINE's script really let me down. Also, the film's schizophrenic nature(is it an OHMSS type serious Bond film or an AVTAK action comedy type Bond film?) and Bond acting like a sentimental, naive idiot("I can't do that", "Elektra, this is a game I can't afford to play", "I won't ask again" and other unBondian, soap operatic histrionics) over a girl he barely knows(he never fell for Tracy or Vesper or Kara that fast) didn't help either.
I give TWINE kudos for trying something different(i.e., a villainess in disguise) but they should have had the courage to allow it to end tragically like OHMSS & CR(i.e., main girl dies with no second girl "waiting in the wings") and it would have been a far better film.
Where would you rank CR 2006 on your list Dan Same? I don't see it on there.
LazenbyThe upper reaches of the AmazoPosts: 606MI6 Agent
You're welcome. Vehement dislike? I don't even vehemently dislike my least favorite Bond actor(currently Brosnan) although I did vehemently dislike AVTAK upon initial viewing. I've mellowed since then and upgraded AVTAK to the status of a watchable mediocrity. Aside from Dalton, what's your take on TLD's script? If say your namesake Lazenby for example had done TLD do you think you would like it then?
Vehement might have been too strong a word (perhaps brought about by a moment's frustration that two of my favorite Bond movies-- TB and CR-- are currently lacking the recognition I feel they deserve in our little game in the other thread)...let's just say I'm not a fan, and leave at that. As for TLD's script...hard to say. My biggest gripe with it was that it seemed to be trying for the FRWL/OHMSS spirit without being able to leave behind the world/Bond of Roger Moore. I have nothing against either (though I personally prefer the former) I just like consistency. Also, the last 1/3 of TLD always seemed to lose my interest (and the villain at the end I always thought kind of lame). I've never thought about Lazenby in TLD-- it probably still wouldn't have made me a huge fan of the movie, as Lazenby wasn't any more of a hokey Bond than Dalton was and probably wouldn't have fit much better in (what I perceive to be) the sillier aspects of the movie. I do definitely consider Lazenby more of a "manly" Bond, however.
Lastly, I think it's safe to say that I do vehemently dislike DAD.
Vehement might have been too strong a word (perhaps brought about by a moment's frustration that two of my favorite Bond movies-- TB and CR-- are currently lacking the recognition I feel they deserve in our little game in the other thread)...
I'm a TB and CR fan as well, like TLD, all 3 films are faithful(at least by EON standards) to their respective original Fleming sources.
As for TLD's script...hard to say. My biggest gripe with it was that it seemed to be trying for the FRWL/OHMSS spirit without being able to leave behind the world/Bond of Roger Moore. I have nothing against either (though I personally prefer the former) I just like consistency.
I have similar feelings concerning FYEO and TWINE and their kinda inbetweeness between serious and silly Bond.
Also, the last 1/3 of TLD always seemed to lose my interest (and the villain at the end I always thought kind of lame).
Replace the word TLD with FYEO in that sentence and that would accurately describe my opinion concerning the final 1/3 of the 1981 film. Maybe final 1/3rds were John Glen's achilles heel as a director(still love TLD though)
I've never thought about Lazenby in TLD-- it probably still wouldn't have made me a huge fan of the movie, as Lazenby wasn't any more of a hokey Bond than Dalton was and probably wouldn't have fit much better in (what I perceive to be) the sillier aspects of the movie. I do definitely consider Lazenby more of a "manly" Bond, however.
That may have been due to the time period(1960s). Moore, Dalton and especially Brosnan had to deal with women's lib and the general feminization of our culture that Connery and Lazenby's Bonds didn't have to deal with. It is interesting to see the return of the alpha male in Craig's 007. Let's see how long it lasts before Craig starts touching computer screens and acting like a dude off a soap opera.8-)
and Bond acting like a sentimental, naive idiot("I can't do that", "Elektra, this is a game I can't afford to play", "I won't ask again" and other unBondian, soap operatic histrionics) over a girl he barely knows(he never fell for Tracy or Vesper or Kara that fast) didn't help either.
The script wasn't as great as it could have been (although I still think it is quite good) but regarding Bond's behaviour, it really led to the betrayal. I mean, it's hard for Bond to feel too much anger towards Electra if he isn't in love with her.
I give TWINE kudos for trying something different(i.e., a villainess in disguise) but they should have had the courage to allow it to end tragically like OHMSS & CR(i.e., main girl dies with no second girl "waiting in the wings") and it would have been a far better film.
I loved the ending. I didn't like the fight with Renard (in which his inability to feel pain was deemed irrelevant) but I loved the killing of Electra and I also really liked the final scene with Christmas.
Where would you rank CR 2006 on your list Dan Same? I don't see it on there.
I'm actually yet to rank it as I plan on seeing all of the Bond films again, and writing a full review on CR, before I rank it. However, for the time being, it would probably be 13th on my list. Oh, call me Dan. -{
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
PKK, I ave a hard time thinking of TLD as all that Fleming: there's not a whole lot there to begin with, even if they did use it pretty well. So that's what, 10 minutes of film time? Seems more in line with FYEO, TMWTGG, DAF, etc., Bond films with a bit of Fleming that then go off on wild tangents. In contrast, TB is a fairly faithful adaptation of a complete novel, and the last half of CR follows the source novel pretty well and without interjecting space lasers or teeny bopper ice skaters or, well, solar lasers, lol. If you can take the Fleming stuff out and still have a plot more or less, then it's too thin to be in the same boat as TB/CR/etc. JMHO.
PKK, I ave a hard time thinking of TLD as all that Fleming: there's not a whole lot there to begin with, even if they did use it pretty well. So that's what, 10 minutes of film time? Seems more in line with FYEO, TMWTGG, DAF, etc., Bond films with a bit of Fleming that then go off on wild tangents. In contrast, TB is a fairly faithful adaptation of a complete novel, and the last half of CR follows the source novel pretty well and without interjecting space lasers or teeny bopper ice skaters or, well, solar lasers, lol. If you can take the Fleming stuff out and still have a plot more or less, then it's too thin to be in the same boat as TB/CR/etc. JMHO.
Well considering they only had a short story and not a whole novel to work with, I think TLD is pretty faithful to Fleming. It certainly has more Fleming than AVTAK or probably the whole decade of 1970s Bond films(and I'm a Bond fan who adores the 1970s Bond films, as silly and unfaithful to their source material as they are)
I think LALD has a lot of Bond in it, handled differently, sure, but the plot follows Fleming fairly well, the villian and the girl are there, also some major scenes. TMWTGG less so, but Scaramanga is still there, and Lee played him perfectly IMO.
I guess one thing that really bugs me about TLD is D'Abo, just terrible wallflower casting IMO, she pretty much ruins the Flemingness for me singlehanded. Should have been a more Honor Blackman-type actress in the role. Also, EON had to create a bigger plot for Fleming's short story to exist within, create villians and situations, etc., and as it's all pretty lame (IMO) that all also detracts from the Flemingness for me. Adding a couple of action scenes that end with Bond having tracked down Le Chiffre's business dealings works far better IMO, that section of CR the film sets up and compliments the Fleming source novel nicely.
I think LALD has a lot of Bond in it, handled differently, sure, but the plot follows Fleming fairly well, the villian and the girl are there, also some major scenes. TMWTGG less so, but Scaramanga is still there, and Lee played him perfectly IMO.
I think DAF contains some Fleming too. But percentage wise, nearly 100 % of TLD ends up in its film version while probably only 10-15 % at most shows up in the film versions of DAF, LALD and TMWTGG.
This article off hmss.com grades the films on their faithfulness to Fleming. TLD gets an A.
I guess one thing that really bugs me about TLD is D'Abo, just terrible wallflower casting IMO, she pretty much ruins the Flemingness for me singlehanded. Should have been a more Honor Blackman-type actress in the role.
When I first saw Miss d'Abo in interviews for the film I wasn't that impressed. But when I actually saw the film, I though she was perfectly cast for the role. As wonderful as Honor Blackman was in GF, an Honor Blackman type actress would have been all wrong for the part of Kara Milovy. While Maryam isn't as classically beautiful as some of the other Bond girls, she believably portrays an oppressed innocent in an iron curtain country who has stumbled into a dangerous plot and situation. Also, she and Dalton had the right chemistry which I don't think she would have had with Brosnan who she initially was supposed to co-star with.
Also, EON had to create a bigger plot for Fleming's short story to exist within, create villians and situations, etc., and as it's all pretty lame (IMO) that all also detracts from the Flemingness for me.
While the overall plot was not as OTT or elaborate as some other films, I think it worked in the context of the plot. I wish EON had actually followed a similar treatment with AVTAK since I adore the From A View To A Kill short story. I was so disappointed when only the Paris location remained in that film version.
Comments
So you're a fan of LTK then?
"Fan" might be a bit strong. I did enjoy it considerably more than TLD overall-- I always liked Davi's villan in that, and I personally think it's a much better showcase of Dalton's strengths than TLD was. For what it's worth I also liked it more than all of Brosnan's films and all but 4 of Moore's.
LTK does have a stronger villain and its girls are more classically beautiful(even though Pam's personality gets on my nerves.) However, I prefer TLD because of its Cold War backdrop, John Barry score and general "feel" as well as its fidelity to Fleming's short story(the last Fleming title novel film for the next 19 years) and the fact that TLD was such a rejuvenating shot in the arm for the series after the tired disaster known as AVTAK.
You ought to post your rankings for 11-21. I'd like to see how you rate the remaining films.
FYEO features fairly faithful Fleming.
The Living Daylights is a rather good back to basics attempt in the Casino Royale style, with its traditional spy/KGB/defection plot and a slightly grittier feel than the last couple of Moore vehicles. For the most part, it's excellent- a much improved (over AVTAK) Bond girl, some great action scenes. But, that whole 'freedom fighters' subplot and the big battle at the end does nothing for whatsoever, it just feels too bloated for the relatively 'grounded' plot. The villains are fairly weak by Bond standards, especially Brad Whittaker.
Licence To Kill I think suits Timothy Dalton's Bond better, being altogether edgier. The villain Sanchez is one of the best of the series, for my money, and the action sequences are often superb. However, it has dated more than most Bond films, imho, and the casino sequence in the middle of the film sags badly IMO. Both are solid 4/5 entries in the series for me though.
I'm also probably one of the few that prefers LTK over TLD. TLD has many great qualities, but also feels like they were trying to stretch things out. Granted, the action sequences are some of the best in the series (especially the fight on the big bag of opium.) However, the movie's real weakness is the complete lack of compelling villains. Brad Whitaker is just pathetic.
I like the darker take on the series that LTK offers. It has aged somewhat, but it's still one of the most enjoyable films in the series for me. I really like Sanchez as a villain. He's different than the standard Bond villain.And his death is one of the most satisfying in the whole series.
Totally with you on TLD's score.
Raymond Benson claimed that, though the title was different, LTK captured "succinctly" the spirit of Fleming's LALD. Does that count?
Done.
What about Connery? How he played the scenes when Bond shot Professor Dent, then dealt with Dr No; his hand to hand fight with Grant, eventually stabbing him with a knife; how he shot Vargus with a spear gun, and the entire DAF PTS ... you can't tell me that's comic book stuff. Connery has had his bad films, sure, but at his best, I think he is unbeatable.
I don't think Bond has ever been potrayed as a comic book superhero.
What about Connery? How he played the scenes when Bond shot Professor Dent, then dealt with Dr No; his hand to hand fight with Grant, eventually stabbing him with a knife; how he shot Vargus with a spear gun, and the entire DAF PTS ... you can't tell me that's comic book stuff. Connery has had his bad films, sure, but at his best, I think he is unbeatable.[/quote] that is exactly my point the dalton films were a return to the tone of those early connery films. as much as i love roger and his films they were getting ever more outlandish and veering off into the realm of comic book. dalton and now craig have injected a tone of realism not seen since connery, and craig especially comes over has one tough b*****D which you could never say about moore or brosnan.
~Pen -{
mountainburdphotography.wordpress.com
Interesting list, Lazenby. 7 films of your top 10 list are also in my top 10. Question: I know TLD isn't one of your favorites but you prefer TWINE to it? Of course you're perfectly entitled to like the films in whatever order you choose as am I and everyone else is. But I find TWINE such a convoluted soap opera mess of a film with Bond acting like a sentimental, naive idiot concerning women. I wonder if TWINE's 007 had ever run across the likes of Helga Brandt or Fiona Volpe before. Imagine FYEO with Melina turning out to be the bad girl and Bibi Dahl turning out to be the main heroine and you get an idea of my opinion of it. I know when EON made TWINE they were aiming for an OHMSS/CR style film for Brosnan but it ended up being an odd mixture of OHMSS and AVTAK, 2 films that definitely do not gel. A classic like OHMSS and the recent success of CR have made TWINE look really weak by comparison in my opinion. The main problem for TWINE's difficulties lay with its script whereas the script for TLD was well-written and Tom Clancy-ish in style. Also, TLD's first 20 minutes make for some of the most accurate depictions of Fleming's writing on screen. Although I prefer Dalton to Brosnan, if Brosnan had made TLD and Dalton had made TWINE, I would still prefer TLD to TWINE mainly because of the script.
Here's a good article on TLD. Both Dalton's fans and critics should find it interesting-
http://commanderbond.net/article/3814
To give a really fair appraisal I'd have to re-watch TWINE, as it's been a number of years since I've seen it; however I seem to remember enjoying it more than I did TLD. I don't know what it is, but something about Dalton in that movie just doesn't work for me. Like, right from the beginning, when that woman wishes for a "real man"-- and then Timothy Dalton appears. I just didn't buy it. I think I would have enjoyed TLD more if it had been better catered to Dalton's particular strengths (I enjoyed LTK considerably more than TLD for this reason). Also on my nerves were that cello-ski sequence, the "optional extras" line and when he mentions to Koskov that there is a "pipeline" and then gives this half-knowing glance to the camera...didn't work for me.
In all honesty (imho)) CR makes every Bond film released after 1969 appear really weak by comparison.
That all being said, since we're dissecting each other's favorites list's here...
YOLT before OHMSS (and TLD before OHMSS...really)? This strikes me as a bit odd for someone who appreciates the more Flemingesque Bonds. And MR before GF and DN? While I myself am a steadfast MR enthusiast, I find that a bit perplexing. Again, I understand perfectly well that you have every right to make your own list according to your own standards/tastes...I'm just commenting. {[]
Then came Timothy Dalton who was leaner tougher and serious. Unfortunately He became 007 at the wrong time - in the 80s. I think the 90s would of suited him more when movies, in general, were becoming less slapstick with a serious tone. So it was all to do with timing.
We probably ought to start a TLD vs. TWINE thread to discuss the merits one film vs. the other. It's true that there are some Roger Moore era leftover elements in TLD that, for the most part, don't quite work . Thankfully, TPTB left Dalton's "magic carpet" ride on the cutting room floor. However, I loved after the disappoiting AVTAK seeing TPTB attempt to make a Bond film that at least attempted to appeal a little more to adults and provide a well written spy story in the FRWL tradition with a younger, more serious actor rather than yet another recycling of GF again. I think of TLD as the "advance guard" to the type of Bond film we eventually got in CR.
I think CR makes TWINE look especially weak because TWINE was an attempt to be a CR-style Bond film that fell flat. CR didn't really hurt say DAF or TMWTGG for me because I've always thought as those as "fun, action-comedy" Bonds that never pretended to be any thing more than that. TWINE, on the other hand, did promise more and fell woefully short here.
Yep, really. I adore TLD. It and CR are my favorite post 1970 Bond films.
I just have electic tastes. I can love the faithful-to-Fleming Bonds(FRWL, TLD, CR) but I can also love the OTT action comedy Bonds like the Lewis Gilbert films. Also, one faithful-to-Fleming that's loved by many(FYEO) has never been one of my favorites. I don't think it's bad but I've never loved it as much as say FRWL, CR, TLD, TB or CR for example. By the same token, my least favorite Bond film(AVTAK) is one that's firmly in the silly, OTT action comedy Bond that's unfaithful to Fleming camp.
Turn about is fair play. The trouble with ratings is that quite a few on my list I really rank about equally but since one has to go ahead of another I usually find something I may slightly prefer and it goes ahead. For example, CR and OHMSS battle it out quite a bit for me but I think they are probably about equal in quality. I also wanted to include a Moore in my top 007 list and I think MR(a highly underrated and sentimental favorite for me since it was the first Bond I saw in the theater as a child) deserves more defenders than it has. Generally speaking my top 10(or I guess 11 now because of CR) list usually includes all 1960s Bonds, TLD, CR and my 3 favorite Moores(MR, OP, TSWLM), though they vary.
That was interesting; thanks for posting it-- my vehement dislike of Dalton and that film definitely seems to be a minority opinion.
You're welcome. Vehement dislike? I don't even vehemently dislike my least favorite Bond actor(currently Brosnan) although I did vehemently dislike AVTAK upon initial viewing. I've mellowed since then and upgraded AVTAK to the status of a watchable mediocrity. Aside from Dalton, what's your take on TLD's script? If say your namesake Lazenby for example had done TLD do you think you would like it then?
On another issue, I understand what's it's like to have a minority opinion on a popular Bond film, in my case FYEO
This review reflects my opinion of the 1981 Bond film more than most of the reviews it gets though I'd probably give it ** 1/2 out of **** instead of the mere ** the reviewer gives it -
http://www.geocities.com/moviecritic.geo/reviews/f/foryoureyes.html
I actually went in to TWINE with high hopes hoping it would be a much better film than it is. I loved Braveheart and I thought Sophie Marceau certainly performed well in her role. However, TWINE's script really let me down. Also, the film's schizophrenic nature(is it an OHMSS type serious Bond film or an AVTAK action comedy type Bond film?) and Bond acting like a sentimental, naive idiot("I can't do that", "Elektra, this is a game I can't afford to play", "I won't ask again" and other unBondian, soap operatic histrionics) over a girl he barely knows(he never fell for Tracy or Vesper or Kara that fast) didn't help either.
I give TWINE kudos for trying something different(i.e., a villainess in disguise) but they should have had the courage to allow it to end tragically like OHMSS & CR(i.e., main girl dies with no second girl "waiting in the wings") and it would have been a far better film.
Where would you rank CR 2006 on your list Dan Same? I don't see it on there.
Vehement might have been too strong a word (perhaps brought about by a moment's frustration that two of my favorite Bond movies-- TB and CR-- are currently lacking the recognition I feel they deserve in our little game in the other thread)...let's just say I'm not a fan, and leave at that. As for TLD's script...hard to say. My biggest gripe with it was that it seemed to be trying for the FRWL/OHMSS spirit without being able to leave behind the world/Bond of Roger Moore. I have nothing against either (though I personally prefer the former) I just like consistency. Also, the last 1/3 of TLD always seemed to lose my interest (and the villain at the end I always thought kind of lame). I've never thought about Lazenby in TLD-- it probably still wouldn't have made me a huge fan of the movie, as Lazenby wasn't any more of a hokey Bond than Dalton was and probably wouldn't have fit much better in (what I perceive to be) the sillier aspects of the movie. I do definitely consider Lazenby more of a "manly" Bond, however.
Lastly, I think it's safe to say that I do vehemently dislike DAD.
I'm a TB and CR fan as well, like TLD, all 3 films are faithful(at least by EON standards) to their respective original Fleming sources.
I have similar feelings concerning FYEO and TWINE and their kinda inbetweeness between serious and silly Bond.
Replace the word TLD with FYEO in that sentence and that would accurately describe my opinion concerning the final 1/3 of the 1981 film. Maybe final 1/3rds were John Glen's achilles heel as a director(still love TLD though)
That may have been due to the time period(1960s). Moore, Dalton and especially Brosnan had to deal with women's lib and the general feminization of our culture that Connery and Lazenby's Bonds didn't have to deal with. It is interesting to see the return of the alpha male in Craig's 007. Let's see how long it lasts before Craig starts touching computer screens and acting like a dude off a soap opera.8-)
I loved the ending. I didn't like the fight with Renard (in which his inability to feel pain was deemed irrelevant) but I loved the killing of Electra and I also really liked the final scene with Christmas.
I'm actually yet to rank it as I plan on seeing all of the Bond films again, and writing a full review on CR, before I rank it. However, for the time being, it would probably be 13th on my list. Oh, call me Dan. -{
Well considering they only had a short story and not a whole novel to work with, I think TLD is pretty faithful to Fleming. It certainly has more Fleming than AVTAK or probably the whole decade of 1970s Bond films(and I'm a Bond fan who adores the 1970s Bond films, as silly and unfaithful to their source material as they are)
I guess one thing that really bugs me about TLD is D'Abo, just terrible wallflower casting IMO, she pretty much ruins the Flemingness for me singlehanded. Should have been a more Honor Blackman-type actress in the role. Also, EON had to create a bigger plot for Fleming's short story to exist within, create villians and situations, etc., and as it's all pretty lame (IMO) that all also detracts from the Flemingness for me. Adding a couple of action scenes that end with Bond having tracked down Le Chiffre's business dealings works far better IMO, that section of CR the film sets up and compliments the Fleming source novel nicely.
I think DAF contains some Fleming too. But percentage wise, nearly 100 % of TLD ends up in its film version while probably only 10-15 % at most shows up in the film versions of DAF, LALD and TMWTGG.
This article off hmss.com grades the films on their faithfulness to Fleming. TLD gets an A.
http://www.hmss.com/amvee/nuggets.htm
When I first saw Miss d'Abo in interviews for the film I wasn't that impressed. But when I actually saw the film, I though she was perfectly cast for the role. As wonderful as Honor Blackman was in GF, an Honor Blackman type actress would have been all wrong for the part of Kara Milovy. While Maryam isn't as classically beautiful as some of the other Bond girls, she believably portrays an oppressed innocent in an iron curtain country who has stumbled into a dangerous plot and situation. Also, she and Dalton had the right chemistry which I don't think she would have had with Brosnan who she initially was supposed to co-star with.
While the overall plot was not as OTT or elaborate as some other films, I think it worked in the context of the plot. I wish EON had actually followed a similar treatment with AVTAK since I adore the From A View To A Kill short story. I was so disappointed when only the Paris location remained in that film version.