I suggest leaving the forum alone for a while and cooling down.
Good idea.
You've got three strikes on our system already, you should already have had a temporary ban by now. Complained about by so many, post reported dozens of times, a couple of threads dedicated to you in the moderators forum. Each time ever so subtle, pushing it to the line, frustrating the moderators (and it's not just me, contrary to what you might think), so take a holiday from here for a couple of weeks.
I'm interested to know what the General's take on his friend is. Has she shown a tendency to use this kind of language in the past? She has been hugely naive...
Without knowing the whole story it's a bit difficult. But this sounds like a mass over reaction from channel 4 after there pathetically bad handling of the previous race row. Although I can't say I liked the girl anyway. I have never heard as much BS come out of someones mouth. Apart from the person it was probably directed at. Also where do you draw the line, can the fat welsh one be called fat? Not to mention the sexual harassment on ziggy. The other way round there would be outrage.
Not even you are going to ruin my day...by all means, go back to the riveting subject of the Big Brother girl. Anything of merit to add yourself L880?
I don't watch Big Brother, although I was shocked at the language used when reading a transcript on the BBC website.
If this is the best thing in your day I have no wish to ruin it. I just find your public expressions of 'euphoria' and your 'overwhelming desire to celebrate' rather unfortunate and inappropriate. The evident strength of feeling is also a trifle odd considering this is, after all, just a James Bond website.
Oh come on is it really that bad? Its just another insult. It's ridiculous that these insults are taken more seriously than others. It's a bloody reality tv show. Yet their freedoms, including speech are restricted even more than they are in the real world.
Oh come on is it really that bad? Its just another insult. It's ridiculous that these insults are taken more seriously than others. It's a bloody reality tv show. Yet their freedoms, including speech are restricted even more than they are in the real world.
It's not just another insult. It's horrible racial abuse. Personally, I have no sympathy for this girl. She deserves to have been kicked out; either for being a racist or for being stupid enough to use a word that she should have known was offensive.
I want to say that I personally couldn't care less what happens in Big Brother. I just think a line should be drawn at racism.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Oh come on is it really that bad? Its just another insult. It's ridiculous that these insults are taken more seriously than others. It's a bloody reality tv show. Yet their freedoms, including speech are restricted even more than they are in the real world.
It's not just another insult. It's horrible racial abuse. Personally, I have no sympathy for this girl. She deserves to have been kicked out; either for being a racist or for being stupid enough to use a word that she should have known was offensive.
On balance I'm with Dan Same on this. While I would agree that freedom of speech is a fundamental concept, I don't think that extends to the use of such disgustingly racist terms as the 'N' word or the 'P' word. The transcript I read suggests that the girl in question used the word in some sort of jokey context; that, however, does not excuse the use of such language.
Perhaps this stems from what I understand is the extensive use of the word in rap music. Still, everyone knows how offensive that word is and I was shocked at its casual use in the transcript.
C4 are going to show it tonight. As far as I can tell from the transcript that Sky News aired, the girl in question didn't mean to cause offence. It seems to be a misguided attempt by a posh girl to act street. But it's just not a word that can be used so lightly. Very foolish. I'm not surprised C4 kicked her out after the media kicking they received over CC BB.
Of course it's not nice. But the word is widely used in music as you say and between the black community. As you also say it was not said in a malicious way either. Personally I don't think it should be made anymore serious than some other insults.
Hugo DraxLeeds, United Kingdom.Posts: 210MI6 Agent
On balance I'm with Dan Same on this. While I would agree that freedom of speech is a fundamental concept, I don't think that extends to the use of such disgustingly racist terms as the 'N' word or the 'P' word. The transcript I read suggests that the girl in question used the word in some sort of jokey context; that, however, does not excuse the use of such language.
Perhaps this stems from what I understand is the extensive use of the word in rap music. Still, everyone knows how offensive that word is and I was shocked at its casual use in the transcript.
I have to say that I disagree with you on this, L880. I have had several debates with a friend of mine over precisely this issue: the use of taboo language in conversation. I believe that the context in which the comment was made and the manner in which it was made.
The word in question has become taboo in modern society, so much so that people are even afraid to use when describing the word as a racist term. Where do you draw the line? Obviously, there is no excuse for using that word in a punitive manner, but the matter in question has been a predictable overreaction by Channel 4, a belated attempt to fight a previous fight. Part of the reason why I take the view I do on the issue is because as someone with dark skin, I have several friends who direct terms at me which would be deemed very racially offensive by some people. But, these prime facie racist comments are made tongue-in-cheek. They are delivered in a tone of absurdity and mockery. The real subject of the joke is not myself, but the people who use those terms to express racist views. However, my point is that some of these conversations could well be construed as racist by other people.
The BB example is clearly different from my own, as the contestant was previously unaware of the context in which the comment was being used. While all forms of racism are manifestly unacceptable, I think you have to be careful not to overreact and you also have to properly understand the context in which certain comments are made. Different people have different levels of sensitivity I admit, and some feel more comfortable about race issues than others. The term used by Emily is one which can be very offensive, but I am merely pointing out that I have friends who frequently direct similar comments at me. And this is not comparable to the use of the respective term in the African-American community, as the friends about whom I speak are white.
Of course it's not nice. But the word is widely used in music as you say and between the black community. As you also say it was not said in a malicious way either. Personally I don't think it should be made anymore serious than some other insults.
The problem is that this word has a long history and a lot of pain and oppression attached to it. That means it can never be just another insult if a white person uses it. But I do wish C4 would flush this damn show down the toilet.
I propose a reality TV show, where the kind of people who make reality TV shows, are trapped on a newly built Alcatraz and forced to try and escape. Only here's the fun part, there are no cameras and nobody is watching. Nobody ever hears from them again. And C4 can spend their over-inflated wages on making decent TV shows.
... or for being stupid enough to use a word that she should have known was offensive.
She deserves to be thrown out from that point alone. It really isn't rocket science to know that kind of word will be offencive no matter what context its used in.
By decent, I mean good. Not decent as in how the Daily Mail would use the word. ie, suitable for prudes, vicars and easily offended of Tunbridge Wells.
People often say that as if that excuses a white person saying that. I would argue that a black person, rightly or wrongly, is allowed to use the word. Some people might disagree, but as a white person, I don't feel comfortable telling black people whether they should use the word or not. I think that certain groups should be allowed to say certain words or utter certain jokes, if they choose to do so. However people outside those groups don't have the right at all.
Personally I don't think it should be made anymore serious than some other insults.
Except it is. It's not the most serious insult in the word, but it is certainly more serious than your garden variety insult. Plus, it's racial. Surely, racial insults should be considered to be especially heinous.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I have to say that I disagree with you on this, L880. I have had several debates with a friend of mine over precisely this issue: the use of taboo language in conversation. I believe that the context in which the comment was made and the manner in which it was made.
You see I don't view it just as taboo, that word is a racially abusive word with a horrific history. I understand your point about context, and there may be times when someone says something they don't see as being able to cause offence. In a class of mine a pupil expressed sentiments about Muslim immigrants during a class discussion which I deemed inappropriate (basically about changing 'our' culture), yet the pupil did not see what was wrong. We discussed why this could easily cause offence and the pupil in question accepted that she did not mean to be racist but was wrong to have expressed herself so indelicately. (It actually emerged that she didn't really mean what she had said).
This instance is slightly different. Perhaps in this case the context was indeed the same, that this woman did not realise that she could cause a great deal of offence by using that word. I find this difficult to believe, however, as the 'N' word and the 'P' word to describe particular ethnic minorities are disgusting. The previous instance was about tactless expression; the Big Brother instance was about the casual use, of a white person towards a black person, of a denigrating term of racial abuse.
Part of the reason why I take the view I do on the issue is because as someone with dark skin, I have several friends who direct terms at me which would be deemed very racially offensive by some people. But, these prime facie racist comments are made tongue-in-cheek. They are delivered in a tone of absurdity and mockery. The real subject of the joke is not myself, but the people who use those terms to express racist views. However, my point is that some of these conversations could well be construed as racist by other people.
I have to say Hugo that I found your thoughts immensely interesting and thank you for writing such a thought-provoking post. I feel like I cannot disagree as you obviously feel comfortable with the use of such terms. I must confess that I am very surprised that your friends make such comments in a jocular manner; I simply have no experience of this in my circle of friends. Personally I would never dream of using such language and nor do I feel any wish to. All I can say is that I find it unacceptable, and I would be deeply uncomfortable in company were such terms part of the parlance.
I think the real problem is not Black people themselves overeacting. It's ironically usually the white people who overeact which makes it worse. On the issue of the "P" word as you put it so politically correctly. How do you feel about calling the French frogs? Both are abbreviated ways of naming people from a certain country and both are used in derrogatory ways. Wheras for some reason the French version is acceptable. Infact I would even say for some reason it's more acceptable to call a German a Nazi than it is to call a Pakistani a Paki. None of which should be acceptable.
I propose a reality TV show, where the kind of people who make reality TV shows, are trapped on a newly built Alcatraz and forced to try and escape. Only here's the fun part, there are no cameras and nobody is watching. Nobody ever hears from them again.
That would be a great show. BB is a horrible show. On the Australian version, a woman who once had a stillbirth was forced to care for an artificial baby.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
In the context of the show (transcript of the conversation is here: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/bigbrother8/a59890/in-full-transcript-of-emilys-racial-slur.html )
I don't believe Emily was being in any way racist. I think we had a stupid little girl who didn't understand what she was saying trying to get in with another girl. This is, after all, the girl who declared that indie was a brand new music that was sweeping the nation. I'll personally miss her vacuosity, her stupidity, and the prospect of her and Channelle having some sort of cat fight, preferably one that ended up with them falling in the pool a'la Krystle and Alexis.
I think Emily is a 19 year old girl who does, perhaps, have black friends who call her by that phrase. Key word here is "friends". Speaking as a minority who gets its fair share of abuse, I have no problem at all with my best friends calling me a homo, or a queer, because I know that it's a gentle ribbing underlined with affection. It's not a word directed at a person I have known for barely a week. If one of my work colleagues called me a bum-bandit, I'd be pretty annoyed, because frankly, they're not my friends and I don't know their motives. So I think she was dumb to use it in that sense.
I also think that any human being in the United Kingdom in the early part of 2007 will have observed the controversy involving Channel 4 and the alleged racist bullying of Shilpa Shetty. I would therefore think that said human beings would realise that anything which might possibly be interpreted as racist would be something of a sore subject for the channel.
But then I'm someone who is not so thick as to appear on the programme, so what do I know?
And I'm sorry General, but no matter how you explain it: tea bag sucking competitions? SICK AND WRONG. Hie thee to the News Of The World, quick, and sell your story of Emily's WORLD OF DEPRAVITY.
C4 just aired that. What a daft wee girl. She didn't mean to cause offence, but her behaviour was really quite ignorant. And her whining, "it's not fair" in the diary room like a spoiled child wasn't too clever either.
If this is the best thing in your day I have no wish to ruin it. I just find your public expressions of 'euphoria' and your 'overwhelming desire to celebrate' rather unfortunate and inappropriate. The evident strength of feeling is also a trifle odd considering this is, after all, just a James Bond website.
My God, lighten up!!!! I was J O K I N G. Stop analyzing every post of mine, it is getting very tiresome and tedious. Who exactly is it you are trying to impress by slapping my wrist all the time? You have no business doing it. I have asked you before to leave me alone, now I'm doing it in public.
If this is the best thing in your day I have no wish to ruin it. I just find your public expressions of 'euphoria' and your 'overwhelming desire to celebrate' rather unfortunate and inappropriate. The evident strength of feeling is also a trifle odd considering this is, after all, just a James Bond website.
My God, lighten up!!!! I was J O K I N G. Stop analyzing every post of mine, it is getting very tiresome and tedious. Who exactly is it you are trying to impress by slapping my wrist all the time? You have no business doing it. I have asked you before to leave me alone, now I'm doing it in public.
)
Very good! Just as the topic moves onto an interesting discussion you go and bring it back to this. Incidentally, I respond to *very* few of your posts. But if you are going to behave in such an unpleasant manner other people should not dissuaded from objecting.
*Please* let this go back on topic as there were some very good responses on the last page.
Comments
You've got three strikes on our system already, you should already have had a temporary ban by now. Complained about by so many, post reported dozens of times, a couple of threads dedicated to you in the moderators forum. Each time ever so subtle, pushing it to the line, frustrating the moderators (and it's not just me, contrary to what you might think), so take a holiday from here for a couple of weeks.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Roger Moore 1927-2017
{[] -{ :007)
She could never inspire this type of euphoria.
If this is the best thing in your day I have no wish to ruin it. I just find your public expressions of 'euphoria' and your 'overwhelming desire to celebrate' rather unfortunate and inappropriate. The evident strength of feeling is also a trifle odd considering this is, after all, just a James Bond website.
I want to say that I personally couldn't care less what happens in Big Brother. I just think a line should be drawn at racism.
Perhaps this stems from what I understand is the extensive use of the word in rap music. Still, everyone knows how offensive that word is and I was shocked at its casual use in the transcript.
I have to say that I disagree with you on this, L880. I have had several debates with a friend of mine over precisely this issue: the use of taboo language in conversation. I believe that the context in which the comment was made and the manner in which it was made.
The word in question has become taboo in modern society, so much so that people are even afraid to use when describing the word as a racist term. Where do you draw the line? Obviously, there is no excuse for using that word in a punitive manner, but the matter in question has been a predictable overreaction by Channel 4, a belated attempt to fight a previous fight. Part of the reason why I take the view I do on the issue is because as someone with dark skin, I have several friends who direct terms at me which would be deemed very racially offensive by some people. But, these prime facie racist comments are made tongue-in-cheek. They are delivered in a tone of absurdity and mockery. The real subject of the joke is not myself, but the people who use those terms to express racist views. However, my point is that some of these conversations could well be construed as racist by other people.
The BB example is clearly different from my own, as the contestant was previously unaware of the context in which the comment was being used. While all forms of racism are manifestly unacceptable, I think you have to be careful not to overreact and you also have to properly understand the context in which certain comments are made. Different people have different levels of sensitivity I admit, and some feel more comfortable about race issues than others. The term used by Emily is one which can be very offensive, but I am merely pointing out that I have friends who frequently direct similar comments at me. And this is not comparable to the use of the respective term in the African-American community, as the friends about whom I speak are white.
The problem is that this word has a long history and a lot of pain and oppression attached to it. That means it can never be just another insult if a white person uses it. But I do wish C4 would flush this damn show down the toilet.
I propose a reality TV show, where the kind of people who make reality TV shows, are trapped on a newly built Alcatraz and forced to try and escape. Only here's the fun part, there are no cameras and nobody is watching. Nobody ever hears from them again. And C4 can spend their over-inflated wages on making decent TV shows.
She deserves to be thrown out from that point alone. It really isn't rocket science to know that kind of word will be offencive no matter what context its used in.
By decent, I mean good. Not decent as in how the Daily Mail would use the word. ie, suitable for prudes, vicars and easily offended of Tunbridge Wells.
Does that matter? She should know better. In this situation, I don't think it matters what her intent was.
Except it is. It's not the most serious insult in the word, but it is certainly more serious than your garden variety insult. Plus, it's racial. Surely, racial insults should be considered to be especially heinous.
This instance is slightly different. Perhaps in this case the context was indeed the same, that this woman did not realise that she could cause a great deal of offence by using that word. I find this difficult to believe, however, as the 'N' word and the 'P' word to describe particular ethnic minorities are disgusting. The previous instance was about tactless expression; the Big Brother instance was about the casual use, of a white person towards a black person, of a denigrating term of racial abuse.
I have to say Hugo that I found your thoughts immensely interesting and thank you for writing such a thought-provoking post. I feel like I cannot disagree as you obviously feel comfortable with the use of such terms. I must confess that I am very surprised that your friends make such comments in a jocular manner; I simply have no experience of this in my circle of friends. Personally I would never dream of using such language and nor do I feel any wish to. All I can say is that I find it unacceptable, and I would be deeply uncomfortable in company were such terms part of the parlance.
I don't believe Emily was being in any way racist. I think we had a stupid little girl who didn't understand what she was saying trying to get in with another girl. This is, after all, the girl who declared that indie was a brand new music that was sweeping the nation. I'll personally miss her vacuosity, her stupidity, and the prospect of her and Channelle having some sort of cat fight, preferably one that ended up with them falling in the pool a'la Krystle and Alexis.
I think Emily is a 19 year old girl who does, perhaps, have black friends who call her by that phrase. Key word here is "friends". Speaking as a minority who gets its fair share of abuse, I have no problem at all with my best friends calling me a homo, or a queer, because I know that it's a gentle ribbing underlined with affection. It's not a word directed at a person I have known for barely a week. If one of my work colleagues called me a bum-bandit, I'd be pretty annoyed, because frankly, they're not my friends and I don't know their motives. So I think she was dumb to use it in that sense.
I also think that any human being in the United Kingdom in the early part of 2007 will have observed the controversy involving Channel 4 and the alleged racist bullying of Shilpa Shetty. I would therefore think that said human beings would realise that anything which might possibly be interpreted as racist would be something of a sore subject for the channel.
But then I'm someone who is not so thick as to appear on the programme, so what do I know?
And I'm sorry General, but no matter how you explain it: tea bag sucking competitions? SICK AND WRONG. Hie thee to the News Of The World, quick, and sell your story of Emily's WORLD OF DEPRAVITY.
@merseytart
My God, lighten up!!!! I was J O K I N G. Stop analyzing every post of mine, it is getting very tiresome and tedious. Who exactly is it you are trying to impress by slapping my wrist all the time? You have no business doing it. I have asked you before to leave me alone, now I'm doing it in public.
Very good! Just as the topic moves onto an interesting discussion you go and bring it back to this. Incidentally, I respond to *very* few of your posts. But if you are going to behave in such an unpleasant manner other people should not dissuaded from objecting.
*Please* let this go back on topic as there were some very good responses on the last page.