I have to say that I disagree with you on this, L880. I have had several debates with a friend of mine over precisely this issue: the use of taboo language in conversation. I believe that the context in which the comment was made and the manner in which it was made.
Interesting, but I don't know if I agree. That is, I think that there are certain things which do cross the line. This may differ for different people but I hate 'Jew and money' comments. A few years ago I got into a big argument with another Jew when she made some comments about that. In this instant, I don't think that context and motivation make a difference. Most of the time, I agree with you that context matters. But there are times when IMO the comment or phrase is so offensive towards a group of people, that I think it goes beyond context.
Part of the reason why I take the view I do on the issue is because as someone with dark skin, I have several friends who direct terms at me which would be deemed very racially offensive by some people. But, these prime facie racist comments are made tongue-in-cheek. They are delivered in a tone of absurdity and mockery. The real subject of the joke is not myself, but the people who use those terms to express racist views. However, my point is that some of these conversations could well be construed as racist by other people.
I think there is a major difference between your personal situation and BB. I would imagine, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you have expressed to your friends directly or indirectly that you don't have a problem with them using such language when talking to you. I would also imagine, and again please correct me if I'm wrong, that if you had expressed your objection, they would not use such language. This is different to BB, in which a white woman used a racially charged word in front of someone she had never met before. Emily presumably did not ask whether the other woman had a problem with her using such a word and, to be frank, she didn't know the other woman well enough to ask. I think that in order to use such language, you have to know the other person extremely well.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Most of the time, I agree with you that context matters. But there are times when IMO the comment or phrase is so offensive towards a group of people, that I think it goes beyond context.
On reflection Dan Same I think you are correct in this. Perhaps I am terribly naive about such matters, however I was incredibly shocked that someone would feel it appropriate to use casually such an offensive and derogatory term.
I do accept, on reading the transcript, that this woman did not use the word with malicious intent. Nevertheless, I think the 'N' word so dreadful that I find it difficult to believe that she did not know how offensive it could be.
I think that in order to use such language, you have to know the other person extremely well.
Again I think you are correct in this. Regardless of how acceptable or unacceptable one thinks such a term for it to be even remotely appropriate it would be necessary to know the person very well indeed. I would still personally feel deeply uncomfortable with the use of such language in my company, but the idea of using it with someone who is basically a total stranger I found astonishing.
Hugo DraxLeeds, United Kingdom.Posts: 210MI6 Agent
You see I don't view it just as taboo, that word is a racially abusive word with a horrific history. I understand your point about context, and there may be times when someone says something they don't see as being able to cause offence. In a class of mine a pupil expressed sentiments about Muslim immigrants during a class discussion which I deemed inappropriate (basically about changing 'our' culture), yet the pupil did not see what was wrong. We discussed why this could easily cause offence and the pupil in question accepted that she did not mean to be racist but was wrong to have expressed herself so indelicately. (It actually emerged that she didn't really mean what she had said).
It is true that certain words have very abusive connotations. However, you could argue that by making words, such as the one used on BB, socially unutterable, you are resigning those words to a solely racist context. I was of the understanding that this was precisely why the word is used in the African-American community, to ensure that it does not only have a racist connotation, but I do not swear by this reasoning.
As for the classroom example, I have also had problems with the misunderstanding of words and concepts by pupils, and the potentially offensive consequences of this misunderstanding. However, I do believe that controversial issues such as race and immigration should be discussed in schools so as to try an combat the misperceptions of students. I had not realised that you were a teacher, L880. May I ask what subject you teach?
This instance is slightly different. Perhaps in this case the context was indeed the same, that this woman did not realise that she could cause a great deal of offence by using that word. I find this difficult to believe, however, as the 'N' word and the 'P' word to describe particular ethnic minorities are disgusting. The previous instance was about tactless expression; the Big Brother instance was about the casual use, of a white person towards a black person, of a denigrating term of racial abuse.
In my opinion, casual racism is ubiquitous in British society. When you associate in such liberal circles, it really does shock you to hear to people saying things they deem to be perfectly acceptable. The other week I was riding the bus and was sat behind a girl and three boys who were engaged in a loud conversation. One of them said that the girl had slept with an Asian man, a comment which evinced reactions of disgust from the other two. There then followed a loud discussion of how sick it was for Asian people to have sexual relations with a partner who was white. What baffled me was that here were four people, openly articulating their racist views without apparently thinking there was anything wrong with what they were saying. One of them then saw me and told the others to shut up. The whole incident did make me feel rather uncomfortable, even though I am not of Asian descent myself. But in my experience, anyone with dark skin who is not Afro-Caribbean tends to automatically be labelled as ‘Asian’. I do take strong objection to this form of racial labelling, as these labels tend to be associated with a whole host of assumptions.
I have to say Hugo that I found your thoughts immensely interesting and thank you for writing such a thought-provoking post. I feel like I cannot disagree as you obviously feel comfortable with the use of such terms. I must confess that I am very surprised that your friends make such comments in a jocular manner; I simply have no experience of this in my circle of friends. Personally I would never dream of using such language and nor do I feel any wish to. All I can say is that I find it unacceptable, and I would be deeply uncomfortable in company were such terms part of the parlance.
I have to admit that I was slightly cautious about saying that, L880, as many people do find it rather surprising. I think it does all depends on the context and who is saying what to you, as Dansame points out. Personally, I find that making light of some aspects of racial stereotyping is a good thing. For example, many people who meet me automatically assume that I am Asian and that I speak one of the South Asian languages. In fact my parents are Mauritian and my second language is French. As a result of this common misunderstanding, a number of my friends do humorously stereotype me as being Asian and I do play along with the stereotype. This may seem rather strange to many people, but it is perfectly understandable to everyone involved.
On the issue of sensitivity, I think that many people automatically tread very carefully when discussing other races. This is something which I also find myself doing. For example, the other week I met a friend of a friend, a girl who was very interested in Bollywood culture. It made me think that it was very interesting to meet a white girl who was so immersed in Bollywood culture. However, on replaying that sentence in my mind before speaking, I didn’t like the sound of it. I don’t like racially labelling people in general, and I didn’t want her to think that I was racially labelling her. She knew what I wanted to say to and helpfully jumped it for me when I was fumbling around for a way in which to say it. She found it funny that I had been trying to think of another way to articulate myself. It just shows how people are sensitive about different aspects of race.
In the context of the show (transcript of the conversation is here: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/bigbrother8/a59890/in-full-transcript-of-emilys-racial-slur.html )
I don't believe Emily was being in any way racist. I think we had a stupid little girl who didn't understand what she was saying trying to get in with another girl. This is, after all, the girl who declared that indie was a brand new music that was sweeping the nation. I'll personally miss her vacuosity, her stupidity, and the prospect of her and Channelle having some sort of cat fight, preferably one that ended up with them falling in the pool a'la Krystle and Alexis.
I think Emily is a 19 year old girl who does, perhaps, have black friends who call her by that phrase. Key word here is "friends". Speaking as a minority who gets its fair share of abuse, I have no problem at all with my best friends calling me a homo, or a queer, because I know that it's a gentle ribbing underlined with affection. It's not a word directed at a person I have known for barely a week. If one of my work colleagues called me a bum-bandit, I'd be pretty annoyed, because frankly, they're not my friends and I don't know their motives. So I think she was dumb to use it in that sense.
I also think that any human being in the United Kingdom in the early part of 2007 will have observed the controversy involving Channel 4 and the alleged racist bullying of Shilpa Shetty. I would therefore think that said human beings would realise that anything which might possibly be interpreted as racist would be something of a sore subject for the channel.
But then I'm someone who is not so thick as to appear on the programme, so what do I know?
And I'm sorry General, but no matter how you explain it: tea bag sucking competitions? SICK AND WRONG. Hie thee to the News Of The World, quick, and sell your story of Emily's WORLD OF DEPRAVITY.
Excellent post jetset. I totally agree with you. After watching the show last night I don't believe she was racist.She was very silly ,but not racist.
I think she was just trying to be 'hip' but her remarks were ill judged and inappropriate.
RACIST Emily Parr hates ethnics and the overweight — and branded a black girl a “fat n*****” who should “go work at KFC”.
Stacey Jones, 19, who was on the ex-Big Brother housemate’s drama course last year, said: “There was one girl called Gloria and Emily used to call her a fat n***** behind her back.
“Gloria got to hear about it and got very upset, but Emily didn’t seem to mind.”
Coursemate Ahmed Pearce, 19, added: “I saw her tell Gloria ‘Go and work at KFC’ — like that’s all she’s fit to do.
“It was a terrible thing to say but it didn’t bother Emily. That’s how she was.
“One of our course leaders was from New Zealand. Before we did a show that teacher would read out a native prayer as a good luck thing but Emily mocked it.
“She’s just not a very nice person and people have now seen that for themselves.”
Another teenager came forward last night to tell how Emily had called him a “P**i” during a house party.
Nathan Patel, 18, from Peterborough, Cambs, met the race row contestant when she began dating one of his pals two years ago.
He said: “I heard Emily refer to me as a ‘P**i’ to a party guest and I flipped. I went over and asked her to repeat what she’d said but she just laughed in my face.”
The article they printed in the newspaper is actually longer. Well, looks like somebody had it coming.
Nevertheless, I think the 'N' word so dreadful that I find it difficult to believe that she did not know how offensive it could be.
Me too. Even though it is not so commonly used in Australia, it still considered to be a horrible word (although not as terrible of course as Americans think of it.)
I would still personally feel deeply uncomfortable with the use of such language in my company, but the idea of using it with someone who is basically a total stranger I found astonishing.
Me too. Perhaps partly because I'm sensitive about racial language anyway, I could never accept someone using the word in front of me.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Well that's predictable that some leech would come out and try and get a bit of money from it. To be taken with a pinch of salt.
Perhaps you’re right. But there are two sources and both tell similar and credible stories. One of them is describing an incident she witnessed and presumably some journalist will follow this up and ask the girl in question what happened and maybe we’ll know more about it. Also quoted in the longer version is a college tutor. I'd be very surprised if he asked for any money from the press. Although given how poorly those in the teaching profession are paid, you never know.
I'm interested to know what the General's take on his friend is. Has she shown a tendency to use this kind of language in the past? She has been hugely naive...
I should firstly clear something up; Emily claimed that her friends use the expression around her frequently. For the nine months I knew her, I did not use that term and never have done. But then it was apparent to me that she was referring to her college friends. I loved how, when Nicky asked her where she was from, and she replied “Bristol”, Nicky almost choked with laughter. This being because of Bristol’s history, and its association with black slavery.
Emily was on her way out long before she used the racist term. She caused problems, denied saying or doing things that we, the viewing public, clearly SAW her say and do. She could easily have avoided being up for nomination by keeping her trap shut and not causing fights, because until that point she’d been in Ziggy’s good books. Even when she was nominated, she still had a good chance of beating Shabnam. But then she had to go and say what she said. I can completely understand C4’s reason’s for removing her from the house. I heard there have been thousands of complaints because she was removed; is there any truth to this?
As I thought she would, Emily played up to the cameras a hell of a lot. She was very aware that she was being watched the whole time, and that’s why I’m surprised she’d be so stupid as to slip up like that. Ziggy nailed it on the head when he called her an actress during one of their rows. All of that said, I think people should always bear in mind the context in which she used the word. She wasn’t trying to cause offence when she used what is obviously some kind of expression she uses amongst her college friends. It is true that people use this word jokingly in normal conversations.
Considers posting youtube link to opening of Blazing Saddles, thinks better of it...
Funnily enough, I was going to make a point about this film. It’s widely regarded as one of the finest comedies ever made, and it’s status as a classic has grown over the years, despite the invading force of political correctness. I personally think that it isn’t entirely unacceptable to use certain terms as long as they aren’t directed at the wrong people for the wrong reasons. With films like Blazing Saddles floating about, I don’t see why C4 and many others made quite as big a deal out of what Emily said as they did, considering again the context and reasons for which she said it. And now, despite being kicked off of the show, she also will have to face a lot of criticism at home and in her life for what could be a few years. It’s not really what she deserves. I should also add that I never knew her to be racist beforehand, and never heard her use any offensive terms of that kind. These articles which have emerged are questionable.
And I'm sorry General, but no matter how you explain it: tea bag sucking competitions? SICK AND WRONG. Hie thee to the News Of The World, quick, and sell your story of Emily's WORLD OF DEPRAVITY.
My amateur dramatics group, the Sodbury Players, already copyrighted every single picture they own of her, including the one I posted earlier in this topic. Furthermore they put articles in numerous papers right up to the Daily Mirror, and have even received attention from Sky News. They’re not very fond of her, and made sure they milked the fact that she was a member for a while. We all predicted she’d be out pretty soon, as we knew what a prima donna she could be. I recall her almost fainting, and making a huge fuss when she discovered that a real fish would be used in a scene on stage. “Oh! That’s disgusting! I simply can’t perform with a real fish!”.
RE: Teabag sucking competitions; they’re incredibly tough! You don’t suck them so much as let them sit on your tongue for as long as you can bear it. Anyway, don’t worry, it’s not something I do regularly and isn’t one of my favourite pastimes.
I heard there have been thousands of complaints because she was removed; is there any truth to this?
I'm not sure if the number is that high, but there have certainly been complaints. The Daily Mail has a two page feature on it today and they are clearly on her side. There is a total double standard at work here. When its working-class girls like Jade Goody or those other fairly unpleasant bints who caused that racist storm the last time, the reporting was vicious and commentators were boiling with rage. When it's a well brought-up middle-class girl who behaves that way they are more than happy to make excuses for her. It's quite possible she might end up doing quite well out of this. But as for a successful acting career; given the performance she put on in the diary room, (pure am dram from the moment she realised she was getting kicked out 8-) ) I don't think we'll be seeing her playing Ophelia any time soon.
She was pathetic when I saw her on Big brother little brother. She wouldn't stick up for herself at all. I have no sympathy for her if she isn't going to fight her corner.
But as for a successful acting career; given the performance she put on in the diary room, (pure am dram from the moment she realised she was getting kicked out 8-) ) I don't think we'll be seeing her playing Ophelia any time soon.
Well, I'd hate to sound as bitchy as Emily, or anyone else in the Big Brother house for that matter, but the very nicest word I can conjure up to describe her acting abilities is 'limited'. Her reaction to finding out that she'd be kicked out was indeed am-dram. Infact, that's an out-and-out insult to am-dram! Cringe-worthy...
Considers posting youtube link to opening of Blazing Saddles, thinks better of it...
Funnily enough, I was going to make a point about this film. It’s widely regarded as one of the finest comedies ever made, and it’s status as a classic has grown over the years, despite the invading force of political correctness.
I was surprised that this film was shown on TV not so long ago. It does seem to transcend the race issue. I thought it would have been put to bed along with 'Love Thy Neighbour' and 'Mind Your Language'. I wonder what makes BS different to other programmes/films.
Comments
I think there is a major difference between your personal situation and BB. I would imagine, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you have expressed to your friends directly or indirectly that you don't have a problem with them using such language when talking to you. I would also imagine, and again please correct me if I'm wrong, that if you had expressed your objection, they would not use such language. This is different to BB, in which a white woman used a racially charged word in front of someone she had never met before. Emily presumably did not ask whether the other woman had a problem with her using such a word and, to be frank, she didn't know the other woman well enough to ask. I think that in order to use such language, you have to know the other person extremely well.
I do accept, on reading the transcript, that this woman did not use the word with malicious intent. Nevertheless, I think the 'N' word so dreadful that I find it difficult to believe that she did not know how offensive it could be.
Again I think you are correct in this. Regardless of how acceptable or unacceptable one thinks such a term for it to be even remotely appropriate it would be necessary to know the person very well indeed. I would still personally feel deeply uncomfortable with the use of such language in my company, but the idea of using it with someone who is basically a total stranger I found astonishing.
It is true that certain words have very abusive connotations. However, you could argue that by making words, such as the one used on BB, socially unutterable, you are resigning those words to a solely racist context. I was of the understanding that this was precisely why the word is used in the African-American community, to ensure that it does not only have a racist connotation, but I do not swear by this reasoning.
As for the classroom example, I have also had problems with the misunderstanding of words and concepts by pupils, and the potentially offensive consequences of this misunderstanding. However, I do believe that controversial issues such as race and immigration should be discussed in schools so as to try an combat the misperceptions of students. I had not realised that you were a teacher, L880. May I ask what subject you teach?
In my opinion, casual racism is ubiquitous in British society. When you associate in such liberal circles, it really does shock you to hear to people saying things they deem to be perfectly acceptable. The other week I was riding the bus and was sat behind a girl and three boys who were engaged in a loud conversation. One of them said that the girl had slept with an Asian man, a comment which evinced reactions of disgust from the other two. There then followed a loud discussion of how sick it was for Asian people to have sexual relations with a partner who was white. What baffled me was that here were four people, openly articulating their racist views without apparently thinking there was anything wrong with what they were saying. One of them then saw me and told the others to shut up. The whole incident did make me feel rather uncomfortable, even though I am not of Asian descent myself. But in my experience, anyone with dark skin who is not Afro-Caribbean tends to automatically be labelled as ‘Asian’. I do take strong objection to this form of racial labelling, as these labels tend to be associated with a whole host of assumptions.
I have to admit that I was slightly cautious about saying that, L880, as many people do find it rather surprising. I think it does all depends on the context and who is saying what to you, as Dansame points out. Personally, I find that making light of some aspects of racial stereotyping is a good thing. For example, many people who meet me automatically assume that I am Asian and that I speak one of the South Asian languages. In fact my parents are Mauritian and my second language is French. As a result of this common misunderstanding, a number of my friends do humorously stereotype me as being Asian and I do play along with the stereotype. This may seem rather strange to many people, but it is perfectly understandable to everyone involved.
On the issue of sensitivity, I think that many people automatically tread very carefully when discussing other races. This is something which I also find myself doing. For example, the other week I met a friend of a friend, a girl who was very interested in Bollywood culture. It made me think that it was very interesting to meet a white girl who was so immersed in Bollywood culture. However, on replaying that sentence in my mind before speaking, I didn’t like the sound of it. I don’t like racially labelling people in general, and I didn’t want her to think that I was racially labelling her. She knew what I wanted to say to and helpfully jumped it for me when I was fumbling around for a way in which to say it. She found it funny that I had been trying to think of another way to articulate myself. It just shows how people are sensitive about different aspects of race.
Excellent post jetset. I totally agree with you. After watching the show last night I don't believe she was racist.She was very silly ,but not racist.
I think she was just trying to be 'hip' but her remarks were ill judged and inappropriate.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003230001-2007260564,00.html
RACIST Emily Parr hates ethnics and the overweight — and branded a black girl a “fat n*****” who should “go work at KFC”.
Stacey Jones, 19, who was on the ex-Big Brother housemate’s drama course last year, said: “There was one girl called Gloria and Emily used to call her a fat n***** behind her back.
“Gloria got to hear about it and got very upset, but Emily didn’t seem to mind.”
Coursemate Ahmed Pearce, 19, added: “I saw her tell Gloria ‘Go and work at KFC’ — like that’s all she’s fit to do.
“It was a terrible thing to say but it didn’t bother Emily. That’s how she was.
“One of our course leaders was from New Zealand. Before we did a show that teacher would read out a native prayer as a good luck thing but Emily mocked it.
“She’s just not a very nice person and people have now seen that for themselves.”
Another teenager came forward last night to tell how Emily had called him a “P**i” during a house party.
Nathan Patel, 18, from Peterborough, Cambs, met the race row contestant when she began dating one of his pals two years ago.
He said: “I heard Emily refer to me as a ‘P**i’ to a party guest and I flipped. I went over and asked her to repeat what she’d said but she just laughed in my face.”
The article they printed in the newspaper is actually longer. Well, looks like somebody had it coming.
-{
Me too. Perhaps partly because I'm sensitive about racial language anyway, I could never accept someone using the word in front of me.
(PS I do realise this is a serious subject under discussion, which I'm staying out of, but I couldn't resist that one)
Perhaps you’re right. But there are two sources and both tell similar and credible stories. One of them is describing an incident she witnessed and presumably some journalist will follow this up and ask the girl in question what happened and maybe we’ll know more about it. Also quoted in the longer version is a college tutor. I'd be very surprised if he asked for any money from the press. Although given how poorly those in the teaching profession are paid, you never know.
I should firstly clear something up; Emily claimed that her friends use the expression around her frequently. For the nine months I knew her, I did not use that term and never have done. But then it was apparent to me that she was referring to her college friends. I loved how, when Nicky asked her where she was from, and she replied “Bristol”, Nicky almost choked with laughter. This being because of Bristol’s history, and its association with black slavery.
Emily was on her way out long before she used the racist term. She caused problems, denied saying or doing things that we, the viewing public, clearly SAW her say and do. She could easily have avoided being up for nomination by keeping her trap shut and not causing fights, because until that point she’d been in Ziggy’s good books. Even when she was nominated, she still had a good chance of beating Shabnam. But then she had to go and say what she said. I can completely understand C4’s reason’s for removing her from the house. I heard there have been thousands of complaints because she was removed; is there any truth to this?
As I thought she would, Emily played up to the cameras a hell of a lot. She was very aware that she was being watched the whole time, and that’s why I’m surprised she’d be so stupid as to slip up like that. Ziggy nailed it on the head when he called her an actress during one of their rows. All of that said, I think people should always bear in mind the context in which she used the word. She wasn’t trying to cause offence when she used what is obviously some kind of expression she uses amongst her college friends. It is true that people use this word jokingly in normal conversations.
Funnily enough, I was going to make a point about this film. It’s widely regarded as one of the finest comedies ever made, and it’s status as a classic has grown over the years, despite the invading force of political correctness. I personally think that it isn’t entirely unacceptable to use certain terms as long as they aren’t directed at the wrong people for the wrong reasons. With films like Blazing Saddles floating about, I don’t see why C4 and many others made quite as big a deal out of what Emily said as they did, considering again the context and reasons for which she said it. And now, despite being kicked off of the show, she also will have to face a lot of criticism at home and in her life for what could be a few years. It’s not really what she deserves. I should also add that I never knew her to be racist beforehand, and never heard her use any offensive terms of that kind. These articles which have emerged are questionable.
My amateur dramatics group, the Sodbury Players, already copyrighted every single picture they own of her, including the one I posted earlier in this topic. Furthermore they put articles in numerous papers right up to the Daily Mirror, and have even received attention from Sky News. They’re not very fond of her, and made sure they milked the fact that she was a member for a while. We all predicted she’d be out pretty soon, as we knew what a prima donna she could be. I recall her almost fainting, and making a huge fuss when she discovered that a real fish would be used in a scene on stage. “Oh! That’s disgusting! I simply can’t perform with a real fish!”.
RE: Teabag sucking competitions; they’re incredibly tough! You don’t suck them so much as let them sit on your tongue for as long as you can bear it. Anyway, don’t worry, it’s not something I do regularly and isn’t one of my favourite pastimes.
Oh, and here's a link to the moment in question;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2l_v7TGCnI&NR=1
(Incase anyone here hasn't seen it already)
I'm not sure if the number is that high, but there have certainly been complaints. The Daily Mail has a two page feature on it today and they are clearly on her side. There is a total double standard at work here. When its working-class girls like Jade Goody or those other fairly unpleasant bints who caused that racist storm the last time, the reporting was vicious and commentators were boiling with rage. When it's a well brought-up middle-class girl who behaves that way they are more than happy to make excuses for her. It's quite possible she might end up doing quite well out of this. But as for a successful acting career; given the performance she put on in the diary room, (pure am dram from the moment she realised she was getting kicked out 8-) ) I don't think we'll be seeing her playing Ophelia any time soon.
I was surprised that this film was shown on TV not so long ago. It does seem to transcend the race issue. I thought it would have been put to bed along with 'Love Thy Neighbour' and 'Mind Your Language'. I wonder what makes BS different to other programmes/films.