Ageing Characters
words
Buckinghamshire, EnglandPosts: 249MI6 Agent
I was thinking about Harrison Ford coming back to play Indiana Jones. It is interesting to think he is ten years older than Roger Moore was in his last Bond effort and 13 (I think!) years older than Brosnan when they decided to dump him.
Why don't we think Bond can get away withbeing an older man? Is it because his job is different or does it depend on the actor?
I just think its interesting that despite the odd joke, the return of Harrison as Indy is being generally well received....
Why don't we think Bond can get away withbeing an older man? Is it because his job is different or does it depend on the actor?
I just think its interesting that despite the odd joke, the return of Harrison as Indy is being generally well received....
Comments
In part it's because Bond is known as a womaniser, but that makes it difficult the older he is, he becomes a dirty old man.
Dare I say that Indy and Rocky are more human, more vulnerable characters, hence their ageing is not at odds with their persona. Bond is for Connery and Moore, the epitome of a kind of good-humoured arrogance, essentially a young man's game.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Our only other example was Roger Moore who at nearly the same age as SC, was more of a distraction, with his puffy, sun spotted hands, wispy hair and tired eyes. The movies whirled about him, he just didn't look fit enough, and it seemed as if he just couldn't keep up.
To accomodate an older Bond, it might be necessary to tinker with the Bond "formula" which while exciting is risky. A good adaptation of the novels "You Only Live Twice" and "The Man With The Golden Gun" would easily suit an older - 50ish oo7.
But many Bond fans tend to be very conservative. As we have seen, without a pre-title gunbarrel, an adoring lap-dog Moneypenny or "Q" with a Penn and Teller selection of "gags" some fans turn into "old ladies" and endlessly wring their hands over the absence of a few overdone cliches, and might just as well wear blindfolds and earplugs while watching the film.
If EON can stay the new course they have charted with CR'06, I wouldn't look to DC's Bond to age gracefully - his Bond (like the literary fella) is going to end up "shot up" and "worn out" and rightfully should retire into a "big red explosion" or as in the end of the Novel FRWL, with the stab of a blowfish toxin painted boot knife!
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
It's worth noting as well that Indiana Jones has his old flame Marion Ravenwood (a still stunningly good looking Karen Allen) with him, rather than some young nymphette.
Also IMHO Indy has his tongue distinctly in his cheek at times which deals with the age issues ("It's not the years honey, it's the mileage"), with the current style of Bond being more serious I'm not sure a return to flip quips would work.
The age of the leading lady is a pertinent point. I think Rog would have 'got away with it' in AVTAK if they hadn't paired him with a 20 something leading lady. What's also interesting though is that Connery in Last Crusade slept with Elsa which somehow seemed acceptable despite him being Indy's Dad!!
This leads me to think the type of actor does make a difference (although I accept the differences between the Indy & Bond characters). For whatever reason, Moore started to come across as a dirty old lech, and I think Brosnan would have done the same.
I quite like the idea of an aging Bond. It might provoke some interesting character development as the films would progress.
Anyway as Mr Craig is the same age as me I am hoping he is still considered not too old!!!!!
As NP pointed out, Bond is not like Indy or Rocky Balboa. Rocky Balboa is a real human human being who has never done anything that was all that implausible. Afterall, don't forget, in the first film he went the distance rather than actualy winning, while Indy is also less of a 'superhero' than Bond, who, unlike Indy, is a prefessional secret agent. Indy is more like John Maclane from Die Hard who is skilled but is essentially a regular guy. Bond is like an Arnie character, who is a specialist and is more extraordinary than regular. (That's not to say of course that Indy and Maclane aren't extraordinary; they are, just in a different way.
Do you really need to insult fans who simply enjoy certain Bondian elements that you might not?
It is preposterous to reduce a film to a series of "sequences", without which it's not a "Bond" film. Why not take "The Terrorists" or "Gold" and do the same thing?
It's all about the story, not the set pieces. Bond can be anywhere from 29 to 55, it's all in the acting and writing. When fans become so limiting that ANY deviation from a narrow set of parameters raises he**, then we will never again see a grand departure like CR'06, it'll be the same tripe over and over again and then we'll be watching endless "Die Another Day" remakes - AGAIN!
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
But I don't think that anybody are doing that. We just believe that that there certain things, that we happen to like, which are Bondian. GF would still be a Bond film without the Gun Barrel, but I love the Gun Barrel, I connect the Gun Barrel with Bond, and I don't see what is so wrong with prefering that a Bond film have the Gun Barrel than not.
I agree that the story is important, but I think it is a mistake to make the story the be-all and end-all. I don't want an aging Bond as I don't think he fits the person that Bond is. You know, if story was everything and the filmmakers felt no obligation towards Bondian traditions, why not make Bond a member of the CIA or something? It is all very well to say that the only thing which should matter is the story and writing, but then the question arises; what to you makes a Bond film? Surely there is something specifically and uniquely Bondian which you would not want to see ignored.
From my perspective, there are elements which IMO are Bondian and which I want to see retained. I make no apologies for that, for I am a Bond fan and if I didn't care about what the filmmakers are doing, then what would be the point of being a fan?
Plus, before DAD becomes the epitome of all that is is wrong about the formula, don't forget that GF followed the formuala, and other great (IMO) Bond films to be produced which was faithful to the formula include TSWLM and GE. Just as it is a mistake to assume that if a Bond film follows the formula, it will become a masterpiece, it is equally a mistake to presume than any Bond film which 'dares' not to will be a masterpiece
One last thing; I'm not a big fan of CR, although I do think it is alot better than DAD. I don't think it could have been a better film if it had followed the formula more (IMO its flaws related to the writing, story and performances), but I certainly think it could have been a better Bond film if it had followed the formula more or if it had respected Bondian history more.
Got nothing against re-editing NSNA for "fun", but it is the same film, edited or not. It's like trying to make a "sow's ear" into something else. The talent to re-edit NSNA should really be used elsewhere to better effect.
I don't dislike the gunbarrel, but it's absence doesn't make me like a film less. IMO EON relied in the past on the gunbarrel and nude girl credits and forgot about story, and charecter.
"Surely there is something specifically and uniquely Bondian which you would not want to see ignored."
Bond started on American TV as an AMERICAN agent. It wasn't a great presentation, but it was based on Fleming's novel and even this KineScope Special has a "Bondian" feel. What I find "specifically and uniquely Bondian" is some degree of faithfulness to Fleming - something that until recently disappeared from the films long ago.
IMO Being a Bond fan means being willing to look at Bond from different prespectives, I see essential "elements" as something different than "cliches" - which are gags that have been done so many times they become meaningless and do not add to the plot. "Formula" is just another word for "cliche". For "Pete's sake" why do we have to always have the same Three Bond girls, one that dies early on, the main love interest and the Evil Girl?
Should QOS turn out to be a LTK rip-off, I doubt a classy director and cast are going to be able to do much with it. It will be the same tired old stuff we have been watching since 1965.
"Plus, before DAD becomes the epitome of all that is is wrong about the formula, don't forget that GF followed the formuala..."
I would say that "Goldfinger" established the formula. There is a difference! I like "Goldfinger" but it was the first of the "set piece" Bond films which later rapidly diminished in quality. They became nothing but attempts to see how many "big red explosions" you can cram into a film and how many naked girls could flop around in the credits before catching a "R" rating. A Bond film can't be a "masterpiece" with cliches, and without story and charecter it's doomed.
"One last thing; I'm not a big fan of CR, although I do think it is alot better than DAD. I don't think it could have been a better film if it had followed the formula more (IMO its flaws related to the writing, story and performances), but I certainly think it could have been a better Bond film if it had followed the formula more or if it had respected Bondian history more."
CR had more than enough "formula" including really stupid moments like DC rising out of the water ala "Honey" and LeChiffre's deformed eye ala Pleasance's Blofeld. Jamming in the DB5 was pure "formula". Had Cleese shown up with the "implant" - ala Thunderball - it would have stuck out like a sore thumb. All these elements were distractions I could have done without. What saved CR was centering the story around Fleming's book and the recasting with an new actor in the title role.
Hey I'm not saying don't like the older films, I love some of them, but nowdays we have DVD's and if one wants to see "Naked Girl Titles", "Flying Gunbarrel Dots" along with "Bad Redheads" and "the great ASton Marin chase" we can pop in and watch the original. What's the point of making "new" Bond films if they are an endless rehash of the older ones?
If that's the case I'm all for aging oo7 and casting Leslie Neilsen!
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Bond's character should be mature, early 40's, but not too old to the point where its not believable that he's a spy anymore.