While it is what it is, I frankly regret that Desmond went about with a PPK replica that had a swastika and eagle on one side....
While I did not advocate altering an original PPK of any vintage, I dislike seeing a swastika directly or indirectly associated with oo7.
This PPK was around long before Bond was thought of. Unfortunately, those who are not Walther collectors will automatically associate any PPK they see with Bond, rather than studying the history and development of the weapon in its hundreds of variations over the decades.
There was never a Party Leader grip panel set for the P.38 or any other weapon.
Here is a photo I took of some of the original screen-used props carried by Desmond in the attache’ case
and shown at various exhibitions. The props are: The brass ammo tubes from the attache' case and the Bleeper both used in "From Russia with Love", the Piton gun and piton from "Diamonds Are Forever" and a replica PPK used by Roger Moore in "For Your Eyes Only"
Ed
TheSpyBoys.com
Wow! Great pictures Ed! Now I can see the piton gun completely. Up till now, I solely relied on screen captures of it to try and identify it and those were always obscured somewhat.
"The ONLY reason that Desmond had a swastika grip on tha replica PPK was due to Replica Models Inc, the importer of the Japanese Replica guns, only offered the replica with those grips only. Their replica of the P-38 also had the swastika markings on the grip.
I purchased both back in the late 60's and my PPK looks EXACTLY like the one carried by Desmond.
Ed
TheSpyBoys.com"
Ed,
From my old circa 1968 Replica Model Catalog.......
It was great to see Craig with the PPK in QOS even though he used the P99 to great effect when he used it in CR. Theres just something about how Craig handled it that made it fit his Bond, like how he held it when he was in the bell tower in Siena.
A thousand thanks for those photos Ed..... I cant thank you enough .... great bit of information there.. .
I put it to you Ed...
... am I correct in thinking. I have the exact same model of Walther PPK - replica, from Japan that Desmond had on his many tours and exhibitions... although my PPK may be a bit further gone in terms of its battle field ...condition... am I also correct in thinking I have the same model used by Roger Moore in FYEO and is the FYEO walther replica the same one Desmond took around with him ? is it the same gun.. ?
I feel a bit bad now for Modifying the Silencer attachment onto it .... ) at least it can unscrew off the gun ... But I am glad it matches all films which featured the flat base magazine PPK - THUNDERBALL and FYEO.. and of course Desmonds PPK replica.
I am sure the Piton Gun from DAF is a cut and shut type of item ... the barrel is from a weapon and the handle and trigger is from another type of weapon...
the barrel that you located Ed. if you paired that with a vintage Flare gun handle and trigger frame that might match up and provide the perfect replica...
Didnt these Grappling guns and items like that exist a long time before DAF... could it have been in fact a real Piton gun... ?
also does anyone have any good photos or stills of the Grappling Piton gun seen in GOLDFINGER in the Pre Titles...
From my old circa 1968 Replica Model Catalog.......
LOL...that brings back memories!!! I still have all my RMI / MGC / Collectors Armoury replica gun catalogs. I totally forgot that they later re-issued the PPK as the "James Bond" model without the swastika and with the extended mag grip.
ED
TheSpyBoys.com
thanks .... from comparing the gun I have to the one Ed posted of Desmonds its identical from what i can see... it has the JAPAN stamp on the side beside the bullet chamber...
I will post some more detailed photos over the next few days ... thanks to everyone on this post for helping me identify this gun .. much appreciated...
thanks for the offer 7289 of changing my name ... but I'll stick to SGG ) for now...
so was the Desmond - Swastika PPK the same gun / replica used by him on tours and also by Roger Moore in FYEO ?
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
edited December 2008
Bapty only ever supplied real PPKs for filming on the Bond films up until Tomorrow Never Dies. Replicas for promotional pictures were used quite alot, including the Japanese copies and these were used in promotional shoots for FYEO. On all of the shots I have it is unlikely that the version with swastika grips was used for obvious reasons, especially when the plain version was more freely available in the UK.
An auction came up in the last few years which had one of these Japanese replicas as used onscreen by GL in OHMSS. Charles Bodycomb, the chief armourer then for Bapty informed me that this was certainly not the case as they only ever used the real deal in the films and then he explained about the off screen promotional material, this has also been confirmed in my many extensive communications with Bond armoury experts and suppliers over the years. There are also several pictures of Connery with the jap version, but these were added in Japanese promo pictures after and were never held by Connery. Complicated stuff.
From my old circa 1968 Replica Model Catalog.......
LOL...that brings back memories!!! I still have all my RMI / MGC / Collectors Armoury replica gun catalogs. I totally forgot that they later re-issued the PPK as the "James Bond" model without the swastika and with the extended mag grip.
ED
TheSpyBoys.com
I too bought the Swastika gripped "Waffen SS PPK" as the box was labelled, in the late60s/early 70s. I also had to buy a new set of grips at one stage as the originals cracked somewhat badly, and these are starting to crack now.
As it has the solid barrel, SGGs is a later model, as the originals had a bar/pin moulded to the side of an otherwise hollow barrel (which mine is) and there is a Photoplay cover from Roger's LALD promo period clearly showing Roger holding an original MGC Replica Model (you can see the bar/pin). I also understand it was one of these replicas that Tee-Hee removed from Roger and "dissabled".
When this replica re-appeared in the 80s/90s it still bore the German eagle, but the Swastika was no longer in evidence, just a blank circle.
The replica shown on the catalogue page
is a later version that I recall was originally available in the US before coming to the UK, I have this version also and for whatever reason it is fractionally smaller than the original PPK.
I don't know why they didn't use the PPK in CR. I've seen promo shots of DC with a stainless PPK, like the one i own (although mine is in .380 being from the states). The stainless finish is superior in my opinion, and better looking on this particular gun.
so was the Desmond - Swastika PPK the same gun / replica used by him on tours and also by Roger Moore in FYEO ?
YES,The photo I posted is what Desmond carried and he specifically stated to me that it was used by Moore in FYEO.
Michael, I need to see the other side of the PPK (the side opposite the ejection port) to see the markings...If you are holding it it would be the left side. That would let me know if its the same type replica as Desmonds.
Ed
TheSpyBoys.com
I am unable to host the pictures I have taken of my PPK at the moment - which Ed requested... I would like to post them here.. so everyone can see if mines is the same gun as Desmond Llewelyn's replica... can anyone help me out .. ?
something I noticed.... the flat bed Magazine PPK is seen in the Book the secret world of James Bond....
Roger Moore also used the flat bed magazine PPK in The Man with the Golden Gun and Lazenby used it in OHMSS as did Tray when she removes it from his shoulder holster...
Ok so the flat bed Magazine PPK style was seen in ... THHUNDERBALL. OHMSS, TMWTGG, FYEO ,
And of course used by Desmond ...
what other films had PPK'S with flat bed magazines.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
The flat baseplate appears in a few scenes but not in the whole film: OHMSS, TMWTGG (also using Connery's FRWL PPK in 9mmK) and TSWLM. It features throughout FYEO and TB.
The PPK seen in The Secret World of 007 has no connection with the films at all and is a Zella produced pre-war PPK. These pre war versions are never used in the films despite a few auction houses claiming otherwise.
thanks Asp9mm... I am going to take a quick look through all of the Bond films on DVD were the PPK is featured heavily in scenes and see if there is any other appearance of the flat bed style Magazine.
Color me curious, but why the interest in flat mags or extensions?
Each real PPK comes with one of each in its oem state. I have always thought the extension was more Bondian as Major Boothroyd mentions it in Dr. No, and that is in essence the only "description" provided of a PPK provided by Fleming.
thanks Asp9mm... I am going to take a quick look through all of the Bond films on DVD were the PPK is featured heavily in scenes and see if there is any other appearance of the flat bed style Magazine.
I've been checking my enormous archive of screeen used PPk's and stills and can confirm that the PPK dropped from the roof in Thunderball is the Japanese copy. Not with Nazi grips though This is the only time that this copy is used onscreen. I've checked them all for you. If there is a scene you are unsure of, gimme a shout and I can provide you with a good screen cap and a picture of the gun used.
thanks Asp9mm... I am going to take a quick look through all of the Bond films on DVD were the PPK is featured heavily in scenes and see if there is any other appearance of the flat bed style Magazine.
I've been checking my enormous archive of screeen used PPk's and stills and can confirm that the PPK dropped from the roof in Thunderball is the Japanese copy. Not with Nazi grips though This is the only time that this copy is used onscreen. I've checked them all for you. If there is a scene you are unsure of, gimme a shout and I can provide you with a good screen cap and a picture of the gun used.
I remember reading that the PPK removed from 007 by Tee Hee and then destroyed was one of the Japanese MGC Replica Models, because being of a softer metal was easier to "cut".
if you watch FYEO ... when Bond drops his PPK on the beach after the countessa is killed I am sure thats the copy and when COLUMBO gives Bond the gun back on the boat.. and also when Bond drops the gun in the snow while ski-ing...
My interest in the flat bed magazines and the extended magazines ,, is no big thing ... I am just curious after... first thinking it was only a flat Bed in LTK , TB, FYEO and Desmonds Gun...
I now notice that the Flat bed is seen alot in OHMSS , THMWTGG , TSWLM, LALD, I would realy like to pin point the film when the extended magazine makes its first apearance... I am enclined to say AVTAK.. after Bond using a WALTHER P5 in Octupussy.
thanks to everyone for looking into this... much appreciated
In DN the pistol was a PP model. In that film they used the flat mag.
The magazine extension is first seen in FRWL whch is also the first appearance of the PPK. The PPK appears again in the GF PTS -which is it's only appearance in that film.
I believe Bond's PPK uses the black extensions - at least in the early films and not the brown ones which were also available.
do you think the Gun that TEE HEE breaks and bends was pre cut on the opposite which we dont see... or was the metal treated or heated to make it softer ....
Before I found that the Gun TEE HEE bent was in fact one of these replicas ... I would have bet my money on the prop department making or comisioning a metal works factory to mock up a tin Walther PPK.
jumping back to the Piton Gun from DAF that Ed. M was chatting about.... would it possibly be a converted or cut down underwater speargun.? I remember seeing something years ago that looked an awful lot like it but it did not have the piton insert etc...
could the DAF piton pistol ... have been a very pistol or stress flare pistol... as there are some similarities in shape....
I have changed the title of this topic slightly as I would very much like for all of us to chat more about the DAF piton Gun
also see this example... as to how a pistol sized speargun could be a beleivable grapling / piton with a few adjustments here and there... i stress this is only an example
also this type of flare gun reminds me of the same design of that of the DAF Piton Gun
Comments
This PPK was around long before Bond was thought of. Unfortunately, those who are not Walther collectors will automatically associate any PPK they see with Bond, rather than studying the history and development of the weapon in its hundreds of variations over the decades.
There was never a Party Leader grip panel set for the P.38 or any other weapon.
Wow! Great pictures Ed! Now I can see the piton gun completely. Up till now, I solely relied on screen captures of it to try and identify it and those were always obscured somewhat.
I purchased both back in the late 60's and my PPK looks EXACTLY like the one carried by Desmond.
Ed
TheSpyBoys.com"
Ed,
From my old circa 1968 Replica Model Catalog.......
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
I put it to you Ed...
... am I correct in thinking. I have the exact same model of Walther PPK - replica, from Japan that Desmond had on his many tours and exhibitions... although my PPK may be a bit further gone in terms of its battle field ...condition... am I also correct in thinking I have the same model used by Roger Moore in FYEO and is the FYEO walther replica the same one Desmond took around with him ? is it the same gun.. ?
I feel a bit bad now for Modifying the Silencer attachment onto it ....
I am sure the Piton Gun from DAF is a cut and shut type of item ... the barrel is from a weapon and the handle and trigger is from another type of weapon...
the barrel that you located Ed. if you paired that with a vintage Flare gun handle and trigger frame that might match up and provide the perfect replica...
Didnt these Grappling guns and items like that exist a long time before DAF... could it have been in fact a real Piton gun... ?
also does anyone have any good photos or stills of the Grappling Piton gun seen in GOLDFINGER in the Pre Titles...
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
LOL...that brings back memories!!! I still have all my RMI / MGC / Collectors Armoury replica gun catalogs. I totally forgot that they later re-issued the PPK as the "James Bond" model without the swastika and with the extended mag grip.
ED
TheSpyBoys.com
the spyboys Facebook page
Michael,
I would need to see a better view of the right side of the PPK so I can read the markings to verify its the same model.
Ed
TheSpyBoys.com
the spyboys Facebook page
By all means post some additional photos of your gift. If this turns out to be "The Desmond" we will have to rename you ..... "Bond's Black Gun"!
{[]
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
I will post some more detailed photos over the next few days ... thanks to everyone on this post for helping me identify this gun .. much appreciated...
thanks for the offer 7289 of changing my name ... but I'll stick to SGG
so was the Desmond - Swastika PPK the same gun / replica used by him on tours and also by Roger Moore in FYEO ?
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
An auction came up in the last few years which had one of these Japanese replicas as used onscreen by GL in OHMSS. Charles Bodycomb, the chief armourer then for Bapty informed me that this was certainly not the case as they only ever used the real deal in the films and then he explained about the off screen promotional material, this has also been confirmed in my many extensive communications with Bond armoury experts and suppliers over the years. There are also several pictures of Connery with the jap version, but these were added in Japanese promo pictures after and were never held by Connery. Complicated stuff.
I too bought the Swastika gripped "Waffen SS PPK" as the box was labelled, in the late60s/early 70s. I also had to buy a new set of grips at one stage as the originals cracked somewhat badly, and these are starting to crack now.
As it has the solid barrel, SGGs is a later model, as the originals had a bar/pin moulded to the side of an otherwise hollow barrel (which mine is) and there is a Photoplay cover from Roger's LALD promo period clearly showing Roger holding an original MGC Replica Model (you can see the bar/pin). I also understand it was one of these replicas that Tee-Hee removed from Roger and "dissabled".
When this replica re-appeared in the 80s/90s it still bore the German eagle, but the Swastika was no longer in evidence, just a blank circle.
The replica shown on the catalogue page
is a later version that I recall was originally available in the US before coming to the UK, I have this version also and for whatever reason it is fractionally smaller than the original PPK.
YES,The photo I posted is what Desmond carried and he specifically stated to me that it was used by Moore in FYEO.
Michael, I need to see the other side of the PPK (the side opposite the ejection port) to see the markings...If you are holding it it would be the left side. That would let me know if its the same type replica as Desmonds.
Ed
TheSpyBoys.com
the spyboys Facebook page
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
Roger Moore also used the flat bed magazine PPK in The Man with the Golden Gun and Lazenby used it in OHMSS as did Tray when she removes it from his shoulder holster...
Ok so the flat bed Magazine PPK style was seen in ... THHUNDERBALL. OHMSS, TMWTGG, FYEO ,
And of course used by Desmond ...
what other films had PPK'S with flat bed magazines.
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
The PPK seen in The Secret World of 007 has no connection with the films at all and is a Zella produced pre-war PPK. These pre war versions are never used in the films despite a few auction houses claiming otherwise.
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
Each real PPK comes with one of each in its oem state. I have always thought the extension was more Bondian as Major Boothroyd mentions it in Dr. No, and that is in essence the only "description" provided of a PPK provided by Fleming.
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
I've been checking my enormous archive of screeen used PPk's and stills and can confirm that the PPK dropped from the roof in Thunderball is the Japanese copy. Not with Nazi grips though
I remember reading that the PPK removed from 007 by Tee Hee and then destroyed was one of the Japanese MGC Replica Models, because being of a softer metal was easier to "cut".
My interest in the flat bed magazines and the extended magazines ,, is no big thing ... I am just curious after... first thinking it was only a flat Bed in LTK , TB, FYEO and Desmonds Gun...
I now notice that the Flat bed is seen alot in OHMSS , THMWTGG , TSWLM, LALD, I would realy like to pin point the film when the extended magazine makes its first apearance... I am enclined to say AVTAK.. after Bond using a WALTHER P5 in Octupussy.
thanks to everyone for looking into this... much appreciated
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
The magazine extension is first seen in FRWL whch is also the first appearance of the PPK. The PPK appears again in the GF PTS -which is it's only appearance in that film.
I believe Bond's PPK uses the black extensions - at least in the early films and not the brown ones which were also available.
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
The gun in FYEO is a real ULM produced Walther PPK without doubt...
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/darkcrown_1969/PDVD_081.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/darkcrown_1969/PDVD_082.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/darkcrown_1969/PDVD_083.jpg
The same when he drops it into the snow, I only have hard copies of those images, but it is without doubt a live ULM PPK
As Mark Hazard correctly points out, the copy also appears in LALD
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/darkcrown_1969/livletdie.jpg
do you think the Gun that TEE HEE breaks and bends was pre cut on the opposite which we dont see... or was the metal treated or heated to make it softer ....
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
could the DAF piton pistol ... have been a very pistol or stress flare pistol... as there are some similarities in shape....
I have changed the title of this topic slightly as I would very much like for all of us to chat more about the DAF piton Gun
also see this example... as to how a pistol sized speargun could be a beleivable grapling / piton with a few adjustments here and there... i stress this is only an example
also this type of flare gun reminds me of the same design of that of the DAF Piton Gun
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps
www.freewebs.com/scaramangasgoldengun
www.facebook.com/QuartermasterProps