Bond's Police Postive

7289 · February 2009

A few of you may have read my article on the "Guns on the Literary James Bond", and you may have noticed that I did not include a photo of a Colt Positive .38 with a sawn barrel.

The reason was I did not own one. Using a photo of someone else's would not have worked as finding one with a "sawn" barrel is pretty uncommon.

I had always figured to pass on purchasing the Police Positive .38, since its mentioned only once in Casino Royale. But on a read of "Thrilling Cities" I was startled to find the Police Positive had returned. In his story on Monte Carlo a lady friend of Fleming's suggests that he attempt to rob the Casino using, not a Beretta, not a Walther or even the lowly Smith & Wesson, but yes a Colt Police Positive - with a sawn barrel no less!!!

A couple of months ago I was able to aquire this phantom of Bond revolvers. But its such a nice little handgun, and in good shape considering it was made in the mid 1930's.

So I thought I would ask my fellow ABJer's for help .... "to saw or not to saw" is it nobler to leave a fine old revolver untouched or should I get out the tools and go Bond?

Opinions Please!

Donald Grant · February 2009

Man, that's tough call. She's a beautiful gun. Since I like guns, that part of me says no. Since I like Bond, that part of me says yes. You could, I suppose, find another and chop one and keep the other unadulterated. However, you will incur more cost. No matter how you go, I'm with you.

DG

7289 · February 2009

For the sake of arguement, we won't be buying a second Colt.

Also getting a second barrel and sawing that, then removing and keeping the original won't really work either. The frame of the revolver is too easily tweaked (bent) trying to unscrew the original barrel.

For this baby its "Everything Or Nothing"!

Asp9mm · February 2009

Do it, it'll look great and go well with your Beretta {[]

agent 00 · February 2009

Get your saw and saw,and make of this nice little gun a one of a kind little gun :007)

Loeffelholz · February 2009

I'm really of two minds on this, 7289...on one hand, I'd love to see your 'Bondified' Police Positive, post surgery B-) On the other hand, it is a lovely piece...

Don't know if you recall, but I enlisted your aid in helping me determine the personal sidearm of my 1941-era P.I. character. I ultimately went with the .38 Smith & Wesson 'Military & Police,' in snubnose...but your recommendation of the Colt .38 impressed me to the point that my villain's henchmen carry the Police Positive---although with the four-inch barrel you show above. A bit of compromise...plus my hero will get to use them, 'pick up' fashion, late in the book B-)

Honestly, I don't know if I'd saw this one...but if you do, I know you'll make a good job of it---and I'd love to see it

Asp9mm · February 2009

I can't wait to see it. Ya know yer gonna do it :v

7289 · February 2009

I've had this a while and really am torn over it. It turned out to be a much nicer revolver than I expected, that pre-war quality is leaps above any firearm produced today so it seems such a horrible notion to take a saw to it.

On the other hand, this is not the last Police Positive .38 around, and I have wanted to complete the Bond collection for a very long time.

I plan to make the final decision based on imput from this site. ASP9mm, I was looking forward to your opinion, and as I thought - you came down on the saw side.

Loeffelholz, I do recall your project, and even if in a Fleimingish fashion you chose not to take my advise about your hero using a Colt, it is after all your story - and you know best.

Thanks to all who have posted thus far. Keep sending in your opinions and i'll post the results - with an already "butchered" .25 Beretta.

-{

Asp9mm · February 2009

It will still have the same quality if you do it in your usual perfect and accurate way. The bonus is you will have an accurate Bond firearm and a rarity to boot. Anyone can buy an old nackered gun and transform it without too much worry. To convert a very nice model will be more pleasing for the final result.

Look at Boothroyds original S&W he chopped up, it has made it more desirable, and a great talking piece.

I'm behind the conversion 100% of the way.

7289 · February 2009

I love that picture!

Loeffelholz · February 2009

7289 wrote:

Loeffelholz, I do recall your project, and even if in a Fleimingish fashion you chose not to take my advise about your hero using a Colt, it is after all your story - and you know best.

Cheers! You might take some solace in knowing that my hero generally keeps what he takes from baddies...so those Police Positives (two of them, in my story) are now a part of his collection... :v

7289 · February 2009

That's a fella I can identify with!!!

Walther PPK · February 2009

Your one lucky collector to a Colt Police Positive !

I have always wondered thought after Casino Royale it never appears again. As sawing the barrel it's your gun, so what ever choice you make is yours.
I can understand not wanting to saw the barrel as it's a fine looking weapon and in excellent shape for a piece over 70 years old.

7289 · February 2009

The Police Positive, the first and most obscure of Bond's handguns, makes the one appearance in Casino Royale and then seems to be forgotten - displaced by the .25 Beretta.

I surmised that it dropped from Fleming's thoughts as well, but in "Thrilling Cities - Monte Carlo", comes this passage:

"...a girl's voice containing in equal proportions sarcasm, curiosity, envy and pleasure at finding a friend from England brought me back to earth.

'Well, I suppose you've broken the bank.'

'No', I said shortly, although I was pleased to see her, 'I haven't.'

'Why don't you shoot out the lights with your .38 Police Positive with the sawn barrel? Then we could grab some chips and make a dash for the door.' "

So there it is, not much really. But nearly a decade after Casino Royale, the old Police Positive is back - not in Bond's hands, or Fleming's, but back on the page nonetheless.

Tecolote · February 2009

I personally would not saw that nice Police Positive,but on the other hand I am interested to see what you do with it.In fact, I was in a gunshop today which had a Positive with a sawn
barrel...
If I remember correctly,the Police Positive is used by a baddie in DAF, and Fleimng had Bond take a Detective Special "with a sawn barrel"
from TeeHee in LALD,which is just careless writing since the Detective Special came with
a 2 inch barrel as standard.
Fleming himself owned a Colt Official Police (which he is holding in the photo on the back
of the old Signet paperbacks)a Browning .25,and a Ruger .22 Target pistol.I think he preferred the sound of "Police Positive" over "Offical Police".

Regards,
Tecolote

agent 00 · February 2009

I've just been in London for a week and visited the Fleming Exhibition in the IWML.The gun in the photo is spot on as the displayed gun that was presented to Ian Fleming.
It could be the same gun.

Asp9mm · February 2009

agent 00 wrote:

I've just been in London for a week and visited the Fleming Exhibition in the IWML.The gun in the photo is spot on as the displayed gun that was presented to Ian Fleming.
It could be the same gun.

No, this one is different, that was Geoffrey Boothroyds gun in the above picture, it is at the IWM as you say, but it is not a Police Positive. This gun was loaned to Fleming, who in turn loaned it to Chopping for the FRWL jacket artwork.

7289 · February 2009

Fleming's Colt is in the IWM exhibit?!!

I would love to see that ...any photos out there? Would also like to know if anyone has the serial number of that revolver.

Blast that fellow who wrote the sanctioned book for the IWM, I would rather have had a well illustrated brochure on the various displays.

Just don't tell me Fleming's Commander's Jacket is on display too, I might just have to build a raft and try to row overseas!!!!!

superado · February 2009

Yep, I would have liked a catalogued approach as well, and really hoped that his smoking accessories were included.

0013 · October 2009

Just came across this thread.

I live the cover of FRWL, as well as the Chopping cover of Licence Renewed, with the FN1903 on it.
I have the two of them together as my desktop wallpaper.

I'm suprised no one has ever mentioned the cut trigger guard. It's something like on a Fitz Special, something Bodn would approve of I think.
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/06/fitz-special.html

0013

7289 · October 2009

0013,

I have thought of making the Police Positive into a "Fitz Special", it would make cutting the barrel of the revolver more "historic".

It is even possible Fleming was exposed to the "Fitz" modifactions. IF visited Camp X in WW2 where the famous Col. Fairbairn taught lessons in commando tactics. Fairbairn was an advocate of the "Fitz" customizations which are: shortened barrel, rounded butt, bobbed hammer all with the front of the trigger guard removed.

But in "Casino Royale" Fleming, who is usually very specific, makes no mention of these other possible changes to the Police Positive Colt. So I doubt he really had a "Fitz" in mind when he wrote about that revolver. We do know that Fleming liked Geoffrey Boothroyd's cut up S&W, but that didn't come along until 4 thrillers had gone into print.

Bond with the "Fitz" would be really "cool" ... Here's a picture of the real deal!

Donald Grant · October 2009

I think Boothroyd had to be exposed to the Fitz special at the very least. I suspect Fleming was too. I always thought the Boothroyd special borrowed on the design of the Fitz Special since it came later. Col. Rex Applegate had a Fitz special and he taught Defendu with the FS knife and point shooting to the OSS. It's a cool gun. Thought about having one made myself, but the Boothroyd special comes first.

DG

7289 · October 2009

Back in the 1950's the "Fitz" modifactions were pretty common alterations, the idea being that cutting away about a third of the revolver resulted in a slicker, faster presentation. So when Boothroyd fancied up his .38-200 S&W he was making what could be called "common" alterations that originated with the guns made up by Mr. Fitzgerald (Fitz) at Colt's twenty years previous.

From his writings we know that Boothroyd used his "Special" for quick draw and aerial shooting. He added target sights to his revolver, and had replacable front sights, so his .38 was more of a multi-purpose revolver than one dedicated to combat shooting.

Boothroyd wrote that rather than modify his old Lend Lease S&W he really wanted to to purchase a S&W Centennial, but due to currency restrictions then in place at the time was not able to import one from the States. I am sure he enjoyed making all the modifactions and got more pleasure out of his custom piece than he woud have got out of a stock S&W.

The S&W is not as good a candidate for the trigger guard removal as the Colts. The cylinder stop on the S&W is powered by a spring that runs through the top of the trigger guard, so it is not possible to remove all the top of the guard on the S&W like it is on the Colt. During that period the S&W action was considered superior to the Colt for speed shooting, and this no doubt inspired Boothroyd's use of the S&W for his conversion.

Removing the trigger guard fell out of favor in the 1960's, it is claimed that the remaining part of the guard could bend if dropped and tie up the action. Bill Jordan a famous US Border Patrol Officer, quick shot and firearms expert came up with the idea of shaving down the right side of the trigger guard for quicker finger access, this kept the structural integrity of the guard intact.

The "Fitz Special's" reputation has gone from being considered "overkill" to "Classic", so there are alot of fellows out there today cutting up old Colt's and making up new Fitz revolvers.

0013 · October 2009

7289 wrote:

Back in the 1950's the "Fitz" modifactions were pretty common alterations, the idea being that cutting away about a third of the revolver resulted in a slicker, faster presentation. So when Boothroyd fancied up his .38-200 S&W he was making what could be called "common" alterations that originated with the guns made up by Mr. Fitzgerald (Fitz) at Colt's twenty years previous.

From his writings we know that Boothroyd used his "Special" for quick draw and aerial shooting. He added target sights to his revolver, and had replacable front sights, so his .38 was more of a multi-purpose revolver than one dedicated to combat shooting.

Boothroyd wrote that rather than modify his old Lend Lease S&W he really wanted to to purchase a S&W Centennial, but due to currency restrictions then in place at the time was not able to import one from the States. I am sure he enjoyed making all the modifactions and got more pleasure out of his custom piece than he woud have got out of a stock S&W.

Ah, So it was indeed a lend Lease S&W K-200 Revolver, also known as a British Victory.

I've recenly read about those here:
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/05/british-victory-model.html

0013

0013 · October 2009

7289 wrote:

A few of you may have read my article on the "Guns on the Literary James Bond", and you may have noticed that I did not include a photo of a Colt Positive .38 with a sawn barrel.

The reason was I did not own one. Using a photo of someone else's would not have worked as finding one with a "sawn" barrel is pretty uncommon.

I had always figured to pass on purchasing the Police Positive .38, since its mentioned only once in Casino Royale. But on a read of "Thrilling Cities" I was startled to find the Police Positive had returned. In his story on Monte Carlo a lady friend of Fleming's suggests that he attempt to rob the Casino using, not a Beretta, not a Walther or even the lowly Smith & Wesson, but yes a Colt Police Positive - with a sawn barrel no less!!!

A couple of months ago I was able to aquire this phantom of Bond revolvers. But its such a nice little handgun, and in good shape considering it was made in the mid 1930's.

So I thought I would ask my fellow ABJer's for help .... "to saw or not to saw" is it nobler to leave a fine old revolver untouched or should I get out the tools and go Bond?

Opinions Please!

Found one...Sort of....

http://www.vincelewis.net/bond3.html

7289 · October 2009

Read the article,

Lots of assumptions, some wrong facts and photos.

0013 · October 2009

7289

Is it a Police Positive or a Police Positive special? Theres a difference, I belive.

Oh, have you taken the saw to it yet?

I think the question you should ask yourself is Why did you get it? If you want to make it a Bond Prop like the old Beretta 418, I say go for it, but it will compromise it when shooting, surley. So if you want to shoot it, maybe having the same guns as Bond is enough.Because his 'modifications' were a bit questionable and could ruin a nice shooting gun.
But if it's just for show, I say go for it.
0013

7289 · October 2009

0013,

There is indeed a difference between the Police Positive and the Police Positive Special. The Police Positive is a smaller framed revolver that fires the .38 Colt (or .38 S&W) which is considerably shorter than the .38 Special for which the Police Positive Special is chambered for.

Fleming refers to Bond's revolver as a "Police Positive", so absent any other references by Fleming, I will hold that Bond's revolver is not a .38 Special.

As for my own decision to cut or not to cut my Police Positive, while I did purchase it for my Bond handgun collection, when I recieved it the revolver was in much better condition than I expected. I also was suprised to find that I had an old holster which I had purchased about 25 years ago that fit it perfectly. It's such a nice little revolver, and in such good shape it seemed a pity to put the saw to it.

Ocassionally I get the temptation to cut the barrel, but right now I have no place to display the collection. So regardless of what I do the revolver will spend most of it's time in the safe.

If I take the saw to the Police Positive, I'll be sure to post a photo. Right now I am inclined to leave the piece as/is and look for another one to cut off.

0013 · October 2009

Have you shot it yet?

7289 · October 2009

0013,

No, but I managed to get two boxes of cartridges for it before the ammo shortage kicked in. Right now it's boxed up with an old Detective Special ... awaiting it's ultimate destiny!

Mr_Ice · October 2009

I see the Police Positive around in the local shops from time to time.
As nice as that one looks I wouldn't hack it. It shouldn't be too hard to find one
that isn't so minty.

Bond's Police Postive

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