CR cloths verses QOS cloths

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  • 007 and a half007 and a half LondonPosts: 595MI6 Agent
    ycpchief wrote:
    Not bespoke, really? Man, those were some pretty great fitting suits for off the rack or made to measure even. I did see the following though so I'm not sure:

    "DANIEL CRAIG has never been retiscent about his love of Tom Ford suits (read all about it here) - now the star is being equally outspoken about the trashing his favourite wardrobe staples are getting on the set of the new James Bond film, Quantum of Solace. The actor is reported to have ruined around 40 bespoke suits by the American designer during filming already, and there's still a way to go yet."

    "SPY GAMES Tom Ford is keeping mum, but the British press have reported that Daniel Craig is wearing Tom Ford suits in the next James Bond film, Quantum of Solace, set to be released in November. ……Earlier this month Craig lamented to the British press that he was ruining numerous Tom Ford bespoke ..."
    The press often use terms incorrectly. The mention of bespoke above is just another case of that. Tom Ford suits are made-to-measure Zegna with Mr Ford's design specifications.
    Roikins wrote:
    Not so. They are bespoke suits. Tom Ford is selling a product, and as such, wants his product to look the best, which means making the items provided bespoke, much as Brioni did. Additionally, there are likely tiny details needed for the filming of the movie, like hidden snaps or weights to keep the suit's or trouser's drape or hang proper during action scenes, in which bespoke is needed.
    Details do not bespoke make. The thing that qualifies something as bespoke is the existence of a personal pattern that is only used for that specific customer. A suit could have every unusual detail imaginable, amazing construction and special fabrics but if it was not cut on a pattern specifically for the customer, it is not bespoke.

    I suggest that you read this short piece by the bespoke tailor who cut HRH the Prince of Wales's suits at Anderson & Sheppard.

    Bond has not worn bespoke suits since Lindy Hemming switched Bond over to made-to-measure in Goldeneye. Bond (in Quantum of Solace, at least) does, however, wear, bespoke shirts by Turnbull & Asser.

    Compare the fit of Craig Bond's made-to-measure
    http://images.blu-ray.com/reviews/1183_2_large.jpg
    to Connery Bond's bespoke here
    http://images.blu-ray.com/reviews/675_5_large.jpg

    The bespoke fits much more naturally. Bond still looks good in the recent movies, but looking at his clothes next to Bond in bespoke, the difference is quite evident.
    ycpchief wrote:
    Also I don't recall reading or hearing Craig say he left the fifth sleeve button undone to make the suit appear to be a four button. That would be an assumption that I'm not sure is correct. :)
    Roikins wrote:
    As for the unbuttoning of the fifth button, that's one of Ford's design "trademarks." He did it at Gucci and now does it with his line. All his suits are made with a larger 5th button that is meant to be worn undone. You will see this on his RTW suits as well if you go to his Madison Ave. store, or even to the Neimans stores that carry his line.

    Perhaps my assumption about the fifth button is incorrect. I readily concede that possibility. However, I do not budge at all as to the suits from Goldeneye onwards not being bespoke.

    ****
    As mentioned MGM Copyrighted images are noit allowed in posts on ajb007.co.uk. - SiCo

    I tought the QoS shirts worn by DC were Tom Ford like the suits?!?!?
  • walther p99walther p99 NJPosts: 3,416MI6 Agent
    sorry but what does bespoke mean?
  • RoikinsRoikins San Francisco, CAPosts: 121MI6 Agent
    edited May 2009

    Details do not bespoke make. The thing that qualifies something as bespoke is the existence of a personal pattern that is only used for that specific customer. A suit could have every unusual detail imaginable, amazing construction and special fabrics but if it was not cut on a pattern specifically for the customer, it is not bespoke.

    I suggest that you read this short piece by the bespoke tailor who cut HRH the Prince of Wales's suits at Anderson & Sheppard.

    Bond has not worn bespoke suits since Lindy Hemming switched Bond over to made-to-measure in Goldeneye. Bond (in Quantum of Solace, at least) does, however, wear, bespoke shirts by Turnbull & Asser.

    Compare the fit of Craig Bond's made-to-measure
    http://images.blu-ray.com/reviews/1183_2_large.jpg
    to Connery Bond's bespoke here
    http://images.blu-ray.com/reviews/675_5_large.jpg

    The bespoke fits much more naturally. Bond still looks good in the recent movies, but looking at his clothes next to Bond in bespoke, the difference is quite evident.

    Considering I own a bespoke Kiton suit, I'm familiar with the process that goes into one. Yes, Tom Ford's main suits are mostly made-to-measure by Zegna, however, I would believe that with a high profile client and a movie placement deal, a designer, especially one just starting out his own business, would go all out to showcase his/her product, just as he practically went to the ends of the earth to find the rare mohair tonic fabric for the suits. Why go through all that trouble for a MTM pattern? MTM just uses an existing template that is adjusted to fit a client, but bespoke means all measurements are taken and a new pattern created just for that client. TF's master tailors could easily do this with access to Craig and then returned to him for a basted fitting, and once done, created several replica suits. Yes, we may never know 100% unless someone asks Frogley or Ford directly. In fact, it could be a combination of bespoke and MTM, where a "show suit" is bespoke, but action suits are MTM. As for the fit between MTM and bespoke, the beauty of bespoke is you can get any cut you want. If you want the left sleeve cuff to be slightly larger than the right to account for a large watch, you can do that. If you want a more nipped waist and large shoulders, you can have the tailor design it that way. If you want a loose fitting waist to conceal a gun, high arm holes, but a trim/unpadded shoulder look, you can do that. Believe me, I have seen some awful fitting bespoke suits, and it does not speak necessarily to the tailor, but to the client's fitment requests. Also something that can account for differences between a bespoke suits in general is the house's styling and the year a suit is made. Every house, or even every tailor, can have a different style -- Ford's house style seems to have a nipped waist with stronger and roped shoulders. Kiton likes more natural shoulders whereas Brioni likes strong shoulders. If you go to the British houses, you'll see more variation in overall design and cut when compared to the Italian houses. Then if you compare bespoke suits from the 60s to ones now, you'll see differences in styling as well. So yes, you can often tell if a suit is bespoke or not by looking at it, but you can never be 100% sure unless you ask.
  • 007 and a half007 and a half LondonPosts: 595MI6 Agent
    sorry but what does bespoke mean?

    My understanding of bespoke was when you have made a 'bespoke' agreement with the tailor on the exact fit, cloth and design of the garment.

    Therefore the the agreement was 'bespoken' between you & the tailor.
  • RoikinsRoikins San Francisco, CAPosts: 121MI6 Agent

    My understanding of bespoke was when you have made a 'bespoke' agreement with the tailor on the exact fit, cloth and design of the garment.

    Therefore the the agreement was 'bespoken' between you & the tailor.


    Yeah, it came from fabric "being spoken for" when a customer came in to pick fabric for a suit to be made for him. These days, it means the client comes in, gets measurements taken, picks fabric, style details, fit, and almost any detail. A basted suit is made for fitting, adjustments made, perhaps more basted fittings, and then the suit finished. This is compared to MTM where an existing pattern is made and adjusted to fit the client and details that can be modified are more limited. MTM is like semi-bespoke, but can be considerably cheaper.
  • greg_1006greg_1006 Posts: 20MI6 Agent
    Roikins wrote:
    Yes, Tom Ford's main suits are mostly made-to-measure by Zegna.


    WTF ??? Can anyone go into greater detail on this? meaning made by the Zegna warehouse?
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