The Venture Bros.

Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
in Off Topic Chat
any of you fans? I love it to death, it's one of my favorite shows on tv. it's blatant homages to James Bond are worthy of any bond fan (as well as Johnny Quest) and the like with the dry humor and the hilarious characters it's funny , it's action, it's awesome on celluloid.

Comments

  • Rick RobertsRick Roberts Posts: 536MI6 Agent
    The series was funny for about three season but now it's getting far too self referential.
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    well, the fourth seasno hasn't started yet

    so....


    any good series has to create it's own mythology

    and this one does it perfectly
  • Rick RobertsRick Roberts Posts: 536MI6 Agent
    Mr. Arlington Beech wrote:
    well, the fourth seasno hasn't started yet

    so....


    any good series has to create it's own mythology

    and this one does it perfectly

    Sorry, I meant the first two.

    I just wish they weren't being so heavy handed about villian and hero cliches. Also the damn random pop culture references are annoying.
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    Rick Roberts wrote:
    Mr. Arlington Beech wrote:
    well, the fourth seasno hasn't started yet

    so....


    any good series has to create it's own mythology

    and this one does it perfectly

    Sorry, I meant the first two.

    I just wish they weren't being so heavy handed about villian and hero cliches. Also the damn random pop culture references are annoying.

    the villian and hero cliches are so heavy handed because they're pulling from Bond mythos, Johnny Quest mythos, along with other 60s and 70s action adventure cartoons. It's supposed to be that way. Plus, characters like Brock Samson often joke about how they'er not really villians. just playing parts.

    Look at Sgt. hatred for example or the Monarch, they're nor really villians they're playing villians. it's people like Phantom Limb who they're all watching out for
  • Rick RobertsRick Roberts Posts: 536MI6 Agent
    Mr. Arlington Beech wrote:
    Rick Roberts wrote:
    Mr. Arlington Beech wrote:
    well, the fourth seasno hasn't started yet

    so....


    any good series has to create it's own mythology

    and this one does it perfectly

    Sorry, I meant the first two.

    I just wish they weren't being so heavy handed about villian and hero cliches. Also the damn random pop culture references are annoying.

    the villian and hero cliches are so heavy handed because they're pulling from Bond mythos, Johnny Quest mythos, along with other 60s and 70s action adventure cartoons. It's supposed to be that way. Plus, characters like Brock Samson often joke about how they'er not really villians. just playing parts.

    Look at Sgt. hatred for example or the Monarch, they're nor really villians they're playing villians. it's people like Phantom Limb who they're all watching out for

    I understand parody of other shows but that is not what they are doing effectively now. They simply keep on referring to the standard cliches of adventure shows and the joke is just tired now. Just let the characters be characters and not just tools.
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    The characters are waaayyy past hero cliches

    really the only ones falling into cliches are hank and dean and even then that's not really true
  • Rick RobertsRick Roberts Posts: 536MI6 Agent
    edited August 2009
    Mr. Arlington Beech wrote:
    The characters are waaayyy past hero cliches

    really the only ones falling into cliches are hank and dean and even then that's not really true

    Not really at this point. Everyone is simply cynical and self referential. There has been a total lack of character this past season. Ventures Brothers is turning into another Family Guy.
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    too tired to go anymore (it's about 2:00 am here)

    i shall post my rebuttal in the morning, kind sir
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    yet again, I disagree. the stories of the characters were expounded upon. Quizboy billy for example. he and peter white moved from background supporting characters to characters intricate to the history and mythology of the show.

    Billy went from being the goofy speaking joke to the evolution of the genesis of Phantom Limb and Brock becoming entagled with the Ventures


    and that's just one example
  • Rick RobertsRick Roberts Posts: 536MI6 Agent
    Mr. Arlington Beech wrote:
    yet again, I disagree. the stories of the characters were expounded upon. Quizboy billy for example. he and peter white moved from background supporting characters to characters intricate to the history and mythology of the show.

    Billy went from being the goofy speaking joke to the evolution of the genesis of Phantom Limb and Brock becoming entagled with the Ventures


    and that's just one example


    You are mistaking origin with character.
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    meh, who cares?

    bottom line: the characters are great
  • SB_DiamondSB_Diamond North Miami Beach, FLPosts: 126MI6 Agent
    Ok, so first of all Mr. Roberts, considering how in the "Pet Peeves" thread you mentioned that you hate all animated shows produced over the last 40 years, saying your opinion is biased is putting it lightly. I could get into all of the psychological characterizations of each character on the show and how their origins affect them, but any true fan of the show would know all of these things. I think your problem is that you don't take the show seriously enough to give it the chance to show you how deep it really is and how deep the issues of each character are. The reason why they are so "heavy handed" about the hero and villain cliches is because that is what the show is about, that is the universe that they live in. The pop culture references aren't random because if for example you are a henchman of a so-called super villain (like 21 and 24), of course you are going to be a super geek into Star Wars and comic books, etc. it makes total sense, just like the majority of the audience for the show is, (because I know I'm a geek, everyone I know who likes the show is a geek and if you are part of any kind of forum dedicated to a film series, tv show or book series then you are probably a geek as well) just like the creators of the show are (which if you watch the dvd's with the commentary on you'd also know). Instead of seeing it as a parody of other shows and films, try seeing it as a homage to these shows and the people who love them. The show is self aware and self referential because it has to be. The Monarch is a grown man in his 30's who goes around in a butterfly suit "arching" the son of the greatest scientist of all time, who himself is a total failure. The fact that he realizes how ridiculous he is only serves to show the viewer how truly out there he is, and he knows it but chooses this path anyway regardless of what anyone says about him. It's quite similar to the core idea behind Watchmen. I think that if you're comparing Family Guy to Venture Bros, you're obviously not paying attention to what the show is truly about.. That's a low blow considering how much all of the "golden age" Bond references they make. Brock Samson IS the "blunt instrument" side of Bond as M puts it. And the origin of the characters is what establishes their relationships with each other and how they interact with each-others personalities, which in turn establishes their own personalities. Like how we find out how Pete White used to be a coke head so its no surprise that he would screw Billy over, or how Billy aspires to be like Rusty Venture who is a complete failure and he in turn is a failure and a coward as well. There was a whole episode dedicated to Dr. Venture's fear of success and daddy issues. The whole basis of the show is how all of the characters strive to be these successful good/evil archetypes within society and they all fail because they are all flawed for a variety of different reasons. Anyways, I'm ranting, point is, The Venture Bros., for the people who actually, REALLY get it, is a very intelligently written, witty and thoughtful show which as it goes on continues to elaborate on the characters and still maintain continuity (if you actually pay attention!) and the third season on blu-ray is absolutely frickin' sweet!
    *~Orbis Non Sufficit~*
  • Rick RobertsRick Roberts Posts: 536MI6 Agent
    edited August 2009
    SB_Diamond wrote:
    Ok, so first of all Mr. Roberts, considering how in the "Pet Peeves" thread you mentioned that you hate all animated shows produced over the last 40 years, saying your opinion is biased is putting it lightly.

    And you don't even know the reason why. Why do hate most animated shows and films during the past 40 years is because all the characters in these insipid features in programs are simpy empty shells that filled by so called "witty writers". Most of them btw, don't give a crap about animation. They just couldn't make it in live action so they consider animation a step down. These sauage factory products have no personal POV, they just make general political statements or something that lacks a human touch. Of course the last thing and most important things is the lack of craftsman ship in the actual animation. You can't honestly point out a scene by an specific animator in any of this modern garbage. There has been a few exceptions though like Ren and Stimpy, Rocko's Modern Life, Mighty Mouse: The New Adventures, the early seasons and shorts of The Simpsons, and Batman: The animated series. As for feature films, Ralph Bakshi's Fritz the Cat, Heavy Traffic, and the sadly underrated John Korty film, Twice Upon a Time.

    I could get into all of the psychological characterizations of each character on the show and how their origins affect them, but any true fan of the show would know all of these things.

    I have seen every single episode, so far. I am very much familar with this series short comings.
    I think your problem is that you don't take the show seriously enough to give it the chance to show you how deep it really is and how deep the issues of each character are. The reason why they are so "heavy handed" about the hero and villain cliches is because that is what the show is about, that is the universe that they live in.

    No it's more like a lack of imagination for poor parody. When you make it so blatant that everything in the world is fake, you take any semblence of exagerration out of it. Exgerration is the key to any good parody. Watch The Great Piggy Bank Robbery by Bob Clampett for an example of a fine parody of Dick Tracy. Daffy and the villians didn't spend 7 to 8 minutes pointing out every cliche in comic books "I am the hero so I must do this" and "I am the villian so I have to make the dramatic speech", etc . They simply acted their parts and that was the entertainment. You just make it mundane and boring to follow if don't let the characters just be characters.
    The pop culture references aren't random because if for example you are a henchman of a so-called super villain (like 21 and 24), of course you are going to be a super geek into Star Wars and comic books, etc. it makes total sense, just like the majority of the audience for the show is, (because I know I'm a geek, everyone I know who likes the show is a geek and if you are part of any kind of forum dedicated to a film series, tv show or book series then you are probably a geek as well) just like the creators of the show are (which if you watch the dvd's with the commentary on you'd also know).

    You haven't made a point here, you just said what the characters like and the creators like. That isn't an excuse to randomly insert pop culture. Look at the first episode of the 3rd season. They continually banter about using montage music and one saying how he used adobe movie maker, something family guy or some crappy crappy Seth Mcfarlane show would do.

    Also the entire time they undermine the setting they are in by speaking in such a casual manner, they would put anyone to sleep. I was more entertained by sitting in my own job interview. And most of the conversations people had during the third season were just about some damn show, movie, etc. Call me crazy but I want actual acting and a setting of an atmosphere when I watch something. In animation you have give an extreme amount of energy because it is so far behind reality.
    Instead of seeing it as a parody of other shows and films, try seeing it as a homage to these shows and the people who love them. The show is self aware and self referential because it has to be. The Monarch is a grown man in his 30's who goes around in a butterfly suit "arching" the son of the greatest scientist of all time, who himself is a total failure. The fact that he realizes how ridiculous he is only serves to show the viewer how truly out there he is, and he knows it but chooses this path anyway regardless of what anyone says about him. It's quite similar to the core idea behind Watchmen.

    Parody, homage, etc., whaetever the word you use the show is a spoof of numerous adventure shows. That is clearly always has been the intent. Let's not make this more then what is. And don't jump on me for not seeing the "substance" just because my comment. Any cartoon I mention that I like I am certaintly not giving any more credit then entertainment.

    I also understand being personally self aware, I don't have a problem with the characters being that way because it allows for emotionally development. However, those character elements are drown by the back to back cliches and pop culture references. Like that entire episode of Monarch fighting Jonas Venture Jr., just terrible. Again, did nothing but talk about cliche after cliche. People then actually accept this as parody. In general, They are whitewashing the characters because they are so desperate to tell the viewer "hey, do you ever notice etc.".
    I think that if you're comparing Family Guy to Venture Bros, you're obviously not paying attention to what the show is truly about..

    Just like Family Guy, Venture Bros is now a lazy show filled to the brim with annoying pop culture commentary. My comparison is dead on.
    That's a low blow considering how much all of the "golden age" Bond references they make. Brock Samson IS the "blunt instrument" side of Bond as M puts it. And the origin of the characters is what establishes their relationships with each other and how they interact with each-others personalities, which in turn establishes their own personalities.

    Again, like Mr. Beech you are mistaking origin with character. They generally failed establish real character development but more like why they are just in the show in the first place.
    Like how we find out how Pete White used to be a coke head so its no surprise that he would screw Billy over, or how Billy aspires to be like Rusty Venture who is a complete failure and he in turn is a failure and a coward as well. There was a whole episode dedicated to Dr. Venture's fear of success and daddy issues.

    Yes I do remember that episode of Venture's personal baggage, correct me if I am wrong but it's the episode where the giant space station broke down ? That is my favorite actually. Too bad the show has just decided not to care about character anymore unless they turn out another surprise like Dr. Quymn, Medicine Woman.
    The whole basis of the show is how all of the characters strive to be these successful good/evil archetypes within society and they all fail because they are all flawed for a variety of different reasons. Anyways, I'm ranting, point is, The Venture Bros., for the people who actually, REALLY get it, is a very intelligently written, witty and thoughtful show which as it goes on continues to elaborate on the characters and still maintain continuity (if you actually pay attention!) and the third season on blu-ray is absolutely frickin' sweet!

    I very much understand this series and there is not much to get. Again, you are making this into alot more then what is.

    Anyway, they did have that effective balance of character and parody, or close to it, during the first two seasons. I am sorry but they have gone straight down the gutter now. They have gotten lazy fast like Adult Swim cartoons of it's ilk. Just like those other shows I have no hope of them returning.
  • SB_DiamondSB_Diamond North Miami Beach, FLPosts: 126MI6 Agent
    Rick Roberts wrote:
    SB_Diamond wrote:
    Ok, so first of all Mr. Roberts, considering how in the "Pet Peeves" thread you mentioned that you hate all animated shows produced over the last 40 years, saying your opinion is biased is putting it lightly.

    And you don't even know the reason why. Why do hate most animated shows and films during the past 40 years is because all the characters in these insipid features in programs are simpy empty shells that filled by so called "witty writers". Most of them btw, don't give a crap about animation. They just couldn't make it in live action so they consider animation a step down. These sauage factory products have no personal POV, they just make general political statements or something that lacks a human touch. Of course the last thing and most important things is the lack of craftsman ship in the actual animation. You can't honestly point out a scene by an specific animator in any of this modern garbage. There has been a few exceptions though like Ren and Stimpy, Rocko's Modern Life, Mighty Mouse: The New Adventures, the early seasons and shorts of The Simpsons, and Batman: The animated series. As for feature films, Ralph Bakshi's Fritz the Cat, Heavy Traffic, and the sadly underrated John Korty film, Twice Upon a Time.

    I could get into all of the psychological characterizations of each character on the show and how their origins affect them, but any true fan of the show would know all of these things.

    I have seen every single episode, so far. I am very much familar with this series short comings.
    I think your problem is that you don't take the show seriously enough to give it the chance to show you how deep it really is and how deep the issues of each character are. The reason why they are so "heavy handed" about the hero and villain cliches is because that is what the show is about, that is the universe that they live in.

    No it's more like a lack of imagination for poor parody. When you make it so blatant that everything in the world is fake, you take any semblence of exagerration out of it. Exgerration is the key to any good parody. Watch The Great Piggy Bank Robbery by Bob Clampett for an example of a fine parody of Dick Tracy. Daffy and the villians didn't spend 7 to 8 minutes pointing out every cliche in comic books "I am the hero so I must do this" and "I am the villian so I have to make the dramatic speech", etc . They simply acted their parts and that was the entertainment. You just make it mundane and boring to follow if don't let the characters just be characters.
    The pop culture references aren't random because if for example you are a henchman of a so-called super villain (like 21 and 24), of course you are going to be a super geek into Star Wars and comic books, etc. it makes total sense, just like the majority of the audience for the show is, (because I know I'm a geek, everyone I know who likes the show is a geek and if you are part of any kind of forum dedicated to a film series, tv show or book series then you are probably a geek as well) just like the creators of the show are (which if you watch the dvd's with the commentary on you'd also know).

    You haven't made a point here, you just said what the characters like and the creators like. That isn't an excuse to randomly insert pop culture. Look at the first episode of the 3rd season. They continually banter about using montage music and one saying how he used adobe movie maker, something family guy or some crappy crappy Seth Mcfarlane show would do.

    Also the entire time they undermine the setting they are in by speaking in such a casual manner, they would put anyone to sleep. I was more entertained by sitting in my own job interview. And most of the conversations people had during the third season were just about some damn show, movie, etc. Call me crazy but I want actual acting and a setting of an atmosphere when I watch something. In animation you have give an extreme amount of energy because it is so far behind reality.
    Instead of seeing it as a parody of other shows and films, try seeing it as a homage to these shows and the people who love them. The show is self aware and self referential because it has to be. The Monarch is a grown man in his 30's who goes around in a butterfly suit "arching" the son of the greatest scientist of all time, who himself is a total failure. The fact that he realizes how ridiculous he is only serves to show the viewer how truly out there he is, and he knows it but chooses this path anyway regardless of what anyone says about him. It's quite similar to the core idea behind Watchmen.

    Parody, homage, etc., whaetever the word you use the show is a spoof of numerous adventure shows. That is clearly always has been the intent. Let's not make this more then what is. And don't jump on me for not seeing the "substance" just because my comment. Any cartoon I mention that I like I am certaintly not giving any more credit then entertainment.

    I also understand being personally self aware, I don't have a problem with the characters being that way because it allows for emotionally development. However, those character elements are drown by the back to back cliches and pop culture references. Like that entire episode of Monarch fighting Jonas Venture Jr., just terrible. Again, did nothing but talk about cliche after cliche. People then actually accept this as parody. In general, They are whitewashing the characters because they are so desperate to tell the viewer "hey, do you ever notice etc.".
    I think that if you're comparing Family Guy to Venture Bros, you're obviously not paying attention to what the show is truly about..

    Just like Family Guy, Venture Bros is now a lazy show filled to the brim with annoying pop culture commentary. My comparison is dead on.
    That's a low blow considering how much all of the "golden age" Bond references they make. Brock Samson IS the "blunt instrument" side of Bond as M puts it. And the origin of the characters is what establishes their relationships with each other and how they interact with each-others personalities, which in turn establishes their own personalities.

    Again, like Mr. Beech you are mistaking origin with character. They generally failed establish real character development but more like why they are just in the show in the first place.
    Like how we find out how Pete White used to be a coke head so its no surprise that he would screw Billy over, or how Billy aspires to be like Rusty Venture who is a complete failure and he in turn is a failure and a coward as well. There was a whole episode dedicated to Dr. Venture's fear of success and daddy issues.

    Yes I do remember that episode of Venture's personal baggage, correct me if I am wrong but it's the episode where the giant space station broke down ? That is my favorite actually. Too bad the show has just decided not to care about character anymore unless they turn out another surprise like Dr. Quymn, Medicine Woman.
    The whole basis of the show is how all of the characters strive to be these successful good/evil archetypes within society and they all fail because they are all flawed for a variety of different reasons. Anyways, I'm ranting, point is, The Venture Bros., for the people who actually, REALLY get it, is a very intelligently written, witty and thoughtful show which as it goes on continues to elaborate on the characters and still maintain continuity (if you actually pay attention!) and the third season on blu-ray is absolutely frickin' sweet!

    I very much understand this series and there is not much to get. Again, you are making this into alot more then what is.

    Anyway, they did have that effective balance of character and parody, or close to it, during the first two seasons. I am sorry but they have gone straight down the gutter now. They have gotten lazy fast like Adult Swim cartoons of it's ilk. Just like those other shows I have no hope of them returning.


    WOW!!! Well there was a mouth full.
    Well, taking the time you so effortfully put to counter-rant my rant into consideration, I'll keep my observations short so as to not exasperate this issue since you are obviously really stuck on your way of thinking.

    I think that you, like me, are a pretty big geek when it comes to these sort of things and as such, like any geek worth his collection have become pretty cynical and adamant in the ways of the "good 'ol days".
    To you there'll never be anything grater than those wonderful days of old where everything was new and fresh, and stories and plots flowed like a stream of ideas that quenched the imaginations of those generations. This inspired us, gave us something to be passionate about, and made you feel like you were part of something.

    The problem here is that this passion can also make you into a cynic. This cynicism is dangerous because in our quest to be better connoisseurs of all things fandom, we pride ourselves in knowing everything, deconstructing EVERYTHING, understanding everything to the point where we even begin to think that we can do a better job than the creators themselves. After a while your critical eye is soooo overdeveloped that you can't even allow yourself to just enjoy the ride. You're so focused on all the things that are wrong or you don't like that you don't even allow yourself to see and appreciate the things that are right with it, thus becoming the equivalent of the Simpsons "comic book guy". Someone who goes to a magic show and has to blurt out how every trick is made and call out every time you se a wire.

    It's escapist fun... just allow yourself to enjoy the ride.
    After all, it's grabbed your attentions for 3 seasons and counting, so it must be doing something right.
    *~Orbis Non Sufficit~*
  • Rick RobertsRick Roberts Posts: 536MI6 Agent
    SB_Diamond wrote:
    I think that you, like me, are a pretty big geek when it comes to these sort of things and as such, like any geek worth his collection have become pretty cynical and adamant in the ways of the "good 'ol days".
    To you there'll never be anything grater than those wonderful days of old where everything was new and fresh, and stories and plots flowed like a stream of ideas that quenched the imaginations of those generations. This inspired us, gave us something to be passionate about, and made you feel like you were part of something.

    I think today's entertainment is filled with good ideas, great ideas even. However what I notice is a genuine lack of effort. Ideas don't work unless you got the gumption to back it up.
    The problem here is that this passion can also make you into a cynic. This cynicism is dangerous because in our quest to be better connoisseurs of all things fandom, we pride ourselves in knowing everything, deconstructing EVERYTHING, understanding everything to the point where we even begin to think that we can do a better job than the creators themselves. After a while your critical eye is soooo overdeveloped that you can't even allow yourself to just enjoy the ride. You're so focused on all the things that are wrong or you don't like that you don't even allow yourself to see and appreciate the things that are right with it, thus becoming the equivalent of the Simpsons "comic book guy". Someone who goes to a magic show and has to blurt out how every trick is made and call out every time you se a wire.

    Yes I criticize entertainment but I hardly consider myself cynical, I just know what I like.
    It's escapist fun... just allow yourself to enjoy the ride.

    Well I have already conceded to the fact that what I like is just that but I have my reservations on what consitutes as entertainment.
    After all, it's grabbed your attentions for 3 seasons and counting, so it must be doing something right.

    Well after two seasons, I had to give it the benefit of the doubt. ;)
  • SB_DiamondSB_Diamond North Miami Beach, FLPosts: 126MI6 Agent
    So Mr. Beech, who's your favorite character on the show and why? I love Brock of course for his many parallels to 007 and also because I love Patrick Warburton's voice work with the character, especially when Brock gets angry. I also love Dr. Girlfriend or now "Mrs. The Monarch". The way she really gets The Monarch from the very beginning and really encourages and supports him through all of his ridiculousness kind of reminds me of my relationship with my fiancé, in a good way of course ;)
    *~Orbis Non Sufficit~*
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    Season 4 preview

    http://ow.ly/kzMH

    cannot wait
  • Mr. Arlington BeechMr. Arlington Beech Posts: 105MI6 Agent
    Gotta love Brock. Henchmen 21 and 24 are probably my favorite supporting characters. tyhey're mumbling bumbling dopes but they're so damn funny.

    the season 2 premeire when 21 is putting on his costume and vocalizing "dramatic music" is classic.

    and as the Monarch put it "they've got that crazy combination of expend-ability and invulnerability that makes them perfect henchmen"
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