Trust me, that last part you added wasn't worth editing your post for.
He was never a joke to anyone that knew him. And if you are American, you are just one of the ignorant, ungrateful people whose rights he continually fought for.
Why don't you actually said what he did that was SO important. Your calling me ignornant ? ) Guess what ? Most US Senators can go entire decades without doing anything, barely attending senate meeting for that matter and they STILL can get re-elected. Kennedy was no exception. He was national joke who was from a family of philanderers and corruption. Joe Kennedy was an anti-semite and McCarthyist ( I think I said that right ) who made his fortune from being a bootleger and was often accused of having ties to the mob. John F. Kennedy didn't due jack **** for this country other then sleep with everyone on the western hemisphere, screwing up the bay of pigs invasion, nearly killing all of us during the Cuban missile crisis, and increasing the amount of troops and the unjust and useless Vietnam War. Your precious Ted Kennedy rallied for the same thing BTW. Oh yes and one last little thing Ted did, HE LET AN INNOCENT WOMEN DROWN IN HIS CAR. Yes I am repeating that because this is a human life we are talking about here, stop ignoring it.
Erm, this is slightly off topic now isn't it? Have to say, while I'm not hugely acquainted with Ted Kennedy's political record, that incident where he lets a woman drown or suffocate to death and contacting his family solicitor before the police does sort of weigh against him imo.
Back on topic, compare all the hoo-ha over the release of train robber Ronnie Biggs who didn't officially really kill anyone in his robbery and you have the proof that the Establishment looks out for its own pretty ruthlessly.
Trust me, that last part you added wasn't worth editing your post for.
He was never a joke to anyone that knew him. And if you are American, you are just one of the ignorant, ungrateful people whose rights he continually fought for.
I dont think you will find many Brits that would agree with you, Mo.
He is largely known here as an IRA sympathiser through his work with NORAID.
I dont think anyone killed or injured courtesy of the IRA would regard themselves as ungrateful or ignorant. If anything he was.
As someone who has seen the work of the IRA first hand, there was no tears shed in my house on his passing.
Erm, this is slightly off topic now isn't it? Have to say, while I'm not hugely acquainted with Ted Kennedy's political record, that incident where he lets a woman drown or suffocate to death and contacting his family solicitor before the police does sort of weigh against him imo.
I wouldn't even give it a nice word like "incident", I would call it straight up murder. Oh well, incident or not, who the hell cares ? So some nobody drowned in a car, who gives a damn ? Just expendable human life, that's it ! Expendable human life ! Nobodies like us are on this earth for that reason.
Besides at least Kennedy honestly worked his way through his early years at Havard. It's not like Ted payed some poor kid to cheat for him on an exam, take all the blame, and then get expelled while Ted got off scott free because he had friends in higher places. Oh wait...
Yes NP, apologies for going off topic but I am tired of hearing this Ted Kennedy "holier then thou" BS. All sarcasm aside, he was a drunk and a murderer who was excused from serious disicipline for his actions because he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. That's all I need to say.
I dont think you will find many Brits that would agree with you, Mo.
He is largely known here as an IRA sympathiser through his work with NORAID.
I dont think anyone killed or injured courtesy of the IRA would regard themselves as ungrateful or ignorant. If anything he was.
Quite a leap there Lady Rose. Wasn't talking about Brits at all....but you knew that. It's not as cut and dry as you put it either.
Here's a couple pretty decent articles addressing that, that don't vilify him as much as your media does about everything American. Not that there is much point. This thread is a good indication that the US and UK will be forever step siblings that just don't get along....so be it. I for one am extremely tired of the hostility crossing over into a James Bond forum as well though.
"all of a sudden when got sick, he became a legend in politics in a GOOD way. Amazing when someone is dying, especially in the US, all of a sudden said person's useless reputation is white washed then escalated to a pedestal of greatness."
That statement alone illustrates you have no idea what you are writing about.
He was diagnosed with cancer in May of 2008. So his entire lifetime spent working in the Senate was all for nothing?
The man's many, well-documented flaws aside, he was on the right side of history, most of the time, and he did more to actually make America a better place than 90% of the careerists and charlatans who pass through the United States Senate.
There's a reason why the press has been covering this all week and why he was buried at Arlington.
Here's one story out of quite a few you might have heard this week:
I've never made any excuses for his past actions (insert scandal here) but come on, the man just died...
Your remarks on JFK and Vietnam I couldn't let go of either. Are you serious? Really?
It remains a point of some controversy among historians whether or not Vietnam would have escalated to the point it did had Kennedy served out his full term and been re-elected in 1964.
Fueling the debate are statements made by Kennedy's and Johnson's Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara that Kennedy was strongly considering pulling out of Vietnam after the 1964 election. In the film "The Fog of War", not only does McNamara say this, but a tape recording of Lyndon Johnson confirms that Kennedy was planning to withdraw from Vietnam, a position Johnson states he strongly disapproved of.
Additional evidence is Kennedy's National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) 263, dated October 11, 1963, which ordered withdrawal of 1,000 military personnel by the end of 1963.
Monique wrote:
"This thread is a good indication that the US and UK will be forever step siblings that just don't get along....so be it. I for one am extremely tired of the hostility crossing over into a James Bond forum as well though."
You can say that again! I usually don't get involved in these types of things, but when there is nothing but hostility, misinformation and ignorance out there...
The man's many, well-documented flaws aside,he was on the right side of history, most of the time, and he did more to actually make America a better place than 90% of the careerists and charlatans who pass through the United States Senate.
Most of his time was dedicated to his own self promotion just like any other "good" senator. You know he even got in bed with Soviets in an attempt to win the 1984 presidential election ?
This isn't surprising really since he has always been a life long socialist, something he admitted on the senate floor in 1995. Every bill he voted on had something to do with increasing the government's power. Now I understand something like civil rights but he wanted big brother to wipe out any semblance of a free market economy.
There's a reason why the press has been covering this all week and why he was buried at Arlington.
Because his last name was Kennedy and blind sycophants such as yourself inflate his importance.
Here's one story out of quite a few you might have heard this week:
Fueling the debate are statements made by Kennedy's and Johnson's Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara that Kennedy was strongly considering pulling out of Vietnam after the 1964 election. In the film "The Fog of War", not only does McNamara say this, but a tape recording of Lyndon Johnson confirms that Kennedy was planning to withdraw from Vietnam, a position Johnson states he strongly disapproved of.
...
Yes, a whole thousand out of 16,300. That just proves he was only easing up on the conflict, not ending it.
I don't condone leaving the scene of an accident, and as I wrote earlier I'm not making any excuses for his past actions.
He was driving drunk and drove off a bridge. He managed to get out of the car, but the girl got trapped and drowned. I don't know the details Rick, I wasn't there. Maybe he tried to save her, maybe he didn't, I don't know and neither do you. Murder it was not. Again, get your facts straight.
I'm not a sycophant, nor am I a coward. I didn't use this kind of venom in responding to your blind rage - which you still seem to have plenty of! How's that working out for you?
I thought you said you were going to stop? You can't, can you Rick?
Feel better? Take a deep breath sweetheart...
I wouldn't call myself a "Kennedy fan." I'm not really sure what that means. I suppose because I'm from Boston that would automatically lead to you think that.
And yes Ricker, as he was driving that night he was directly responsible for the death of that young woman.
He was driving drunk and drove off a bridge. He managed to get out of the car, but the girl got trapped and drowned. I don't know the details Rick, I wasn't there. Maybe he tried to save her, maybe he didn't, I don't know and neither do you. Murder it was not. Again, get your facts straight.
IT IS MURDER. You know how long he waited to call the police ? THE NEXT **** DAY. Even the police said that if Kennedy had a called at least 25 minutes after the crash, she would have lived. What else do I have to say to get this through your skull ?
I'm not a sycophant, nor am I a coward. I didn't use this kind of venom in responding to your blind rage - which you still seem to have plenty of! How's that working out for you?
Why I am so pissed because you want to defend the reputation of drunk, cheating socialist, murderer. But as you said, just a few innocent mistakes. HE TOOK A HUMAN LIFE, STOP SAYING IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.
And yes Ricker, as he was driving that night he was directly responsible for the death of that young woman.
So ergo he is murderer, thank you. Now please have the common sense of ceasing to defend him.
And yes saying something like this:
he was on the right side of history, most of the time, and he did more to actually make America a better place than 90% of the careerists and charlatans who pass through the United States Senate.
Without even making one mention of the murder he committed and his socialist agenda makes you an ignorant sypcophant.
In response to what started this thread, I have heard nothing of any boycott of Scottish goods.
It's always unfortunate when the postings of a few crazy people on the internet somehow become the catalyst for an argument.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
We've come quite far from the release of a Libyan fellow from a Scottish prison, to be sure...
If we want to start a thread about flawed politicians, where guys named Kennedy and Profumo and Nixon and Clinton can party like it's 1999, somebody should start one...so I'll know which one to avoid 8-)
Meantime, maybe this one ought to go away.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
We've come quite far from the release of a Libyan fellow from a Scottish prison, to be sure...
If we want to start a thread about flawed politicians, where guys named Kennedy and Profumo and Nixon and Clinton can party like it's 1999, somebody should start one...so I'll know which one to avoid 8-)
And Bush 43, Reagan, Bush 41,Carter, Hoover, Lincoln, and that guy who died in a month. )
Over here he was considered a rich wastrel who supported the IRA and drowned one of his dates. Mary Jo Kopechne, July 26 1940-July 19 1969. RIP.
My apologies, I meant Australia. Here in Australia, he was (and remains) extremely respected.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
My apologies, I meant Australia. Here in Australia, he was (and remains) extremely respected.
A bit like Kylie over here then.
) Yes, I don't think of us over here will ever understand what you see in her.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
IT IS MURDER. You know how long he waited to call the police ? THE NEXT **** DAY. Even the police said that if Kennedy had a called at least 25 minutes after the crash, she would have lived. What else do I have to say to get this through your skull ?
I'm not a sycophant, nor am I a coward. I didn't use this kind of venom in responding to your blind rage - which you still seem to have plenty of! How's that working out for you?
Why I am so pissed because you want to defend the reputation of drunk, cheating socialist, murderer. But as you said, just a few innocent mistakes. HE TOOK A HUMAN LIFE, STOP SAYING IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.
The never-changing and always angry Rick Roberts here again 8-)
I have decided not to comment on him anymore, but what I am seeing here is too much over the top, sorry:
First of all, I have great respect for the dead. I have no intention to defend real bad people like Saddam and others, but calling Ted Kennedy, who's dead for only a couple of days a murderer is out of line. No matter how bold you print it 8-)
As Red Indian said, nobody was really there, so noone can really tell, what exactly happened.
And I am sure, that T.K was sincerely feeling guilty about the death of Mary Jo Kopechne.
I don't know too much about US law, but as far as I know, Ted Kennedy was never convicted for murder in that case (whatever the reasons may be). As much as I know about UK people someone is regarded innocent if he's not convicted guilty for something and I agree on this. "In dubio reo" seperates us from barbarism.....
If Ted Kennedy was responsable for the crash, he was responsable for, what happened, but this does not make him a murderer in my understanding. I have no intention to defend drunk driving, it is bad!. But an accident caused by someone who is drunk is not regarded as murderer here in Germany and I think, the UK and the US law are the same, which some people may regret.
If Ted Kennedy really did not try to salvage her, it was bad.
The fact, that he did not call the police is bad. But we call it then "failure to render assistance", which is also a bad thing. But It's something different than being murder!
I have never been drunk in my life, but people, who have been tell me, that they had no control over their action and their memory fails very much for that time. Again, it's a bad thing, but it's not murder!
We don't really know what happened and we really don't know his motives, but this has brandmarked him for the rest of his life.
But calling such a man a murderer is tasteless in relation to his recent death and legally wrong!
Besides that, it is libel.
let me add one more thing: Last weekend 2 passengers died here in Hamburg on board of a hydroplane. The pilot ignored the indicator lights that the landing gear was "open" and when he landed on water, the plane flipped.
There were policemen and firemen everywhere around and it was day. It took them 25 minutes to get these people out from the sunk plane, but it was too late.
I would not call the pilot a murderer, even his actions where totally wrong. And it shows us, that even a dozen people where not able to save these 2 passengers in the right time and they did not even have to drive to the place of accident.
What I want to say: We don't know, if T.K. tried to salvage Mary Jo Kopechne. Even if he tried, it is very plausible, that he had no chance. And even if he would have called 911 immediately, we can't say, that Mary Jo Kopechne could have been saved.
Once again, I have no intention to defend "failure to render assistance". It's a very bad thing, but it's far away from murder!
Thank you very much for your time.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,447Chief of Staff
Comments
Why don't you actually said what he did that was SO important. Your calling me ignornant ?
Back on topic, compare all the hoo-ha over the release of train robber Ronnie Biggs who didn't officially really kill anyone in his robbery and you have the proof that the Establishment looks out for its own pretty ruthlessly.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I dont think you will find many Brits that would agree with you, Mo.
He is largely known here as an IRA sympathiser through his work with NORAID.
I dont think anyone killed or injured courtesy of the IRA would regard themselves as ungrateful or ignorant. If anything he was.
As someone who has seen the work of the IRA first hand, there was no tears shed in my house on his passing.
I wouldn't even give it a nice word like "incident", I would call it straight up murder. Oh well, incident or not, who the hell cares ? So some nobody drowned in a car, who gives a damn ? Just expendable human life, that's it ! Expendable human life ! Nobodies like us are on this earth for that reason.
Besides at least Kennedy honestly worked his way through his early years at Havard. It's not like Ted payed some poor kid to cheat for him on an exam, take all the blame, and then get expelled while Ted got off scott free because he had friends in higher places. Oh wait...
Yes NP, apologies for going off topic but I am tired of hearing this Ted Kennedy "holier then thou" BS. All sarcasm aside, he was a drunk and a murderer who was excused from serious disicipline for his actions because he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. That's all I need to say.
Over here he was considered a rich wastrel who supported the IRA and drowned one of his dates. Mary Jo Kopechne, July 26 1940-July 19 1969. RIP.
Quite a leap there Lady Rose. Wasn't talking about Brits at all....but you knew that. It's not as cut and dry as you put it either.
Here's a couple pretty decent articles addressing that, that don't vilify him as much as your media does about everything American. Not that there is much point. This thread is a good indication that the US and UK will be forever step siblings that just don't get along....so be it. I for one am extremely tired of the hostility crossing over into a James Bond forum as well though.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1919293,00.html
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/08/28/kennedys_irish_roots_understanding_grew_with_the_passage_of_time/?page=1
"all of a sudden when got sick, he became a legend in politics in a GOOD way. Amazing when someone is dying, especially in the US, all of a sudden said person's useless reputation is white washed then escalated to a pedestal of greatness."
That statement alone illustrates you have no idea what you are writing about.
He was diagnosed with cancer in May of 2008. So his entire lifetime spent working in the Senate was all for nothing?
The man's many, well-documented flaws aside, he was on the right side of history, most of the time, and he did more to actually make America a better place than 90% of the careerists and charlatans who pass through the United States Senate.
There's a reason why the press has been covering this all week and why he was buried at Arlington.
Here's one story out of quite a few you might have heard this week:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/26/littlest.refusenik.kennedy/index.html
I've never made any excuses for his past actions (insert scandal here) but come on, the man just died...
Your remarks on JFK and Vietnam I couldn't let go of either. Are you serious? Really?
It remains a point of some controversy among historians whether or not Vietnam would have escalated to the point it did had Kennedy served out his full term and been re-elected in 1964.
Fueling the debate are statements made by Kennedy's and Johnson's Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara that Kennedy was strongly considering pulling out of Vietnam after the 1964 election. In the film "The Fog of War", not only does McNamara say this, but a tape recording of Lyndon Johnson confirms that Kennedy was planning to withdraw from Vietnam, a position Johnson states he strongly disapproved of.
Additional evidence is Kennedy's National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) 263, dated October 11, 1963, which ordered withdrawal of 1,000 military personnel by the end of 1963.
Monique wrote:
"This thread is a good indication that the US and UK will be forever step siblings that just don't get along....so be it. I for one am extremely tired of the hostility crossing over into a James Bond forum as well though."
You can say that again! I usually don't get involved in these types of things, but when there is nothing but hostility, misinformation and ignorance out there...
Most of his time was dedicated to his own self promotion just like any other "good" senator. You know he even got in bed with Soviets in an attempt to win the 1984 presidential election ?
http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html
This isn't surprising really since he has always been a life long socialist, something he admitted on the senate floor in 1995. Every bill he voted on had something to do with increasing the government's power. Now I understand something like civil rights but he wanted big brother to wipe out any semblance of a free market economy.
Because his last name was Kennedy and blind sycophants such as yourself inflate his importance.
I have seen enough of the sycophantic articles.
Yeah his past action of cheating at Havard to graduate and killing a women. Sorry, I shouldn't bring up such trivial matters.
Amazing not one Kennedy fan here can say "Yes he killed a woman". Stop being such a coward and admit it.
Yes, a whole thousand out of 16,300. That just proves he was only easing up on the conflict, not ending it.
He was driving drunk and drove off a bridge. He managed to get out of the car, but the girl got trapped and drowned. I don't know the details Rick, I wasn't there. Maybe he tried to save her, maybe he didn't, I don't know and neither do you. Murder it was not. Again, get your facts straight.
I'm not a sycophant, nor am I a coward. I didn't use this kind of venom in responding to your blind rage - which you still seem to have plenty of! How's that working out for you?
I thought you said you were going to stop? You can't, can you Rick?
Feel better? Take a deep breath sweetheart...
I wouldn't call myself a "Kennedy fan." I'm not really sure what that means. I suppose because I'm from Boston that would automatically lead to you think that.
And yes Ricker, as he was driving that night he was directly responsible for the death of that young woman.
Sleep well tonight! Depraved child...
IT IS MURDER. You know how long he waited to call the police ? THE NEXT **** DAY. Even the police said that if Kennedy had a called at least 25 minutes after the crash, she would have lived. What else do I have to say to get this through your skull ?
Why I am so pissed because you want to defend the reputation of drunk, cheating socialist, murderer. But as you said, just a few innocent mistakes. HE TOOK A HUMAN LIFE, STOP SAYING IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.
So ergo he is murderer, thank you. Now please have the common sense of ceasing to defend him.
And yes saying something like this:
Without even making one mention of the murder he committed and his socialist agenda makes you an ignorant sypcophant.
It's always unfortunate when the postings of a few crazy people on the internet somehow become the catalyst for an argument.
If we want to start a thread about flawed politicians, where guys named Kennedy and Profumo and Nixon and Clinton can party like it's 1999, somebody should start one...so I'll know which one to avoid 8-)
Meantime, maybe this one ought to go away.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
And Bush 43, Reagan, Bush 41,Carter, Hoover, Lincoln, and that guy who died in a month.
Probably some more.
I'll drink to that. -{ To hell with politics. It just gets in the way of the good stuff.
A bit like Kylie over here then.
The never-changing and always angry Rick Roberts here again 8-)
I have decided not to comment on him anymore, but what I am seeing here is too much over the top, sorry:
First of all, I have great respect for the dead. I have no intention to defend real bad people like Saddam and others, but calling Ted Kennedy, who's dead for only a couple of days a murderer is out of line. No matter how bold you print it 8-)
As Red Indian said, nobody was really there, so noone can really tell, what exactly happened.
And I am sure, that T.K was sincerely feeling guilty about the death of Mary Jo Kopechne.
I don't know too much about US law, but as far as I know, Ted Kennedy was never convicted for murder in that case (whatever the reasons may be). As much as I know about UK people someone is regarded innocent if he's not convicted guilty for something and I agree on this. "In dubio reo" seperates us from barbarism.....
If Ted Kennedy was responsable for the crash, he was responsable for, what happened, but this does not make him a murderer in my understanding. I have no intention to defend drunk driving, it is bad!. But an accident caused by someone who is drunk is not regarded as murderer here in Germany and I think, the UK and the US law are the same, which some people may regret.
If Ted Kennedy really did not try to salvage her, it was bad.
The fact, that he did not call the police is bad. But we call it then "failure to render assistance", which is also a bad thing. But It's something different than being murder!
I have never been drunk in my life, but people, who have been tell me, that they had no control over their action and their memory fails very much for that time. Again, it's a bad thing, but it's not murder!
We don't really know what happened and we really don't know his motives, but this has brandmarked him for the rest of his life.
But calling such a man a murderer is tasteless in relation to his recent death and legally wrong!
Besides that, it is libel.
let me add one more thing: Last weekend 2 passengers died here in Hamburg on board of a hydroplane. The pilot ignored the indicator lights that the landing gear was "open" and when he landed on water, the plane flipped.
There were policemen and firemen everywhere around and it was day. It took them 25 minutes to get these people out from the sunk plane, but it was too late.
I would not call the pilot a murderer, even his actions where totally wrong. And it shows us, that even a dozen people where not able to save these 2 passengers in the right time and they did not even have to drive to the place of accident.
What I want to say: We don't know, if T.K. tried to salvage Mary Jo Kopechne. Even if he tried, it is very plausible, that he had no chance. And even if he would have called 911 immediately, we can't say, that Mary Jo Kopechne could have been saved.
Once again, I have no intention to defend "failure to render assistance". It's a very bad thing, but it's far away from murder!
Thank you very much for your time.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
You are most certainly not alone in that thought, Mo.
Ted Kennedy ? I sure he did many good things as well as many bad things...like most human beings.
I'm going to close this thread....and certain people need to steer clear of certain topics, that much is obvious.