BA Baracus is a short black guy with a black van and gold chains.
Gandalf is an old guy with white hair and a sword called Glamdring.
Scotty is, well duh, Scottish.
Bruce Wayne is a rich orphan.
It's not about being racist, politically correct or anything else. It's simply a matter of character. Imagine sitting down to watch your favourite 'Murder, she wrote' to find old Angela Lansbury had turned into an overweight black woman from New Orleans. You'd be all 'wtf has happened here?!' but that wouldn't make you racist, it's simply a matter of a character having, well crap, characteristics.
Bond was written as, and has always been played by a middle aged British white guy. Apart from the aussie.
If the idea of a black secret agent who works for the British government is such a fantastic idea then I can't see any reason why that can't happen in a separate series/film/franchise all of its own.
The question of whether a black actor could ever play James Bond is nothing more than a **** stirring wind up. You may as well be asking if Nick Griffin would be a good candidate for minister of immigration.
Happy New Year!
+1 Well played, Sir!
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
BA Baracus is a short black guy with a black van and gold chains.
Gandalf is an old guy with white hair and a sword called Glamdring.
Scotty is, well duh, Scottish.
Bruce Wayne is a rich orphan.
It's not about being racist, politically correct or anything else. It's simply a matter of character. Imagine sitting down to watch your favourite 'Murder, she wrote' to find old Angela Lansbury had turned into an overweight black woman from New Orleans. You'd be all 'wtf has happened here?!' but that wouldn't make you racist, it's simply a matter of a character having, well crap, characteristics.
Bond was written as, and has always been played by a middle aged British white guy. Apart from the aussie.
If the idea of a black secret agent who works for the British government is such a fantastic idea then I can't see any reason why that can't happen in a separate series/film/franchise all of its own.
The question of whether a black actor could ever play James Bond is nothing more than a **** stirring wind up. You may as well be asking if Nick Griffin would be a good candidate for minister of immigration.
Happy New Year!
+1 Well played, Sir!
THANK YOU! {[]
Thats what I needed to hear. Please. Can we end this thread here! )
“The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
I do think it odd that there's such a big debate about whether the next Bond should be black or not when there's nether any of this when it comes to appointing a new Batman, Superman, etc.
I agree with those who have said Elba will be too old to be Bond once Craig takes over but I'm worried that if he doesn't get the role, the franchise is going to come into criticism because the debate about a "Black Bond" is so strong.
At the end of the day, it should be the best available actor and skin colour shouldn't come in to it.
"You are about to wake when you dream that you are dreaming"
I agree with those who have said Elba will be too old to be Bond once Craig takes over but I'm worried that if he doesn't get the role, the franchise is going to come into criticism because the debate about a "Black Bond" is so strong.
I think you'll find that the franchise is going to get a lot more criticism if Elba did get the role.
At the end of the day, it should be the best available actor and skin colour shouldn't come in to it.
There was recently in the press a young actress who has had the rug pulled from under her after she lied about her age in an audition for a Coronation Street character. Her character is supposed to be 14, and the actress said she's 19 when in fact it's turned out she's 25 or something. The producers have pulled the plug on her getting the role as they believe she shouldn't be playing the role of someone 11 years younger than her real age.
Does the producer's of Coronation Street decision to pull the plug make them ageist?
No, they decided to pull the plug because as time goes on she could start to show her age and her character could therefore suddenly go from 14 to 25 in the space of a few months. I'd imagine that any girls with bigger.... features would probably have been binned because they didn't look younger enough.
It's not a matter of being ageist, against girls with more features than others, or in the theoretical case of casting a black man to play bond, racist, it's about if the real life physical appearance of the actor matches the description of the on screen character.
With some characters you can get away with it, for instance Dr Who, who every now and then changes form. He could 'reanimate' as a white guy, and black guy or even turn female and it wouldn't make such a big difference.
However if Bond turned into an overweight mammy from alabama then i'm pretty sure the fans would be all 'wtf has happened to james bond?!' Would such a decision make eon more diverse and culturally aware? No, it'd make them bloody mental.
So I'm sorry to all you tree hugging human rights activists who believe everyone should get a chance at doing anything they like, but the world just isn't like that.
If you think it's a sad sad thing and we should change our views and stop being so 'conformist' then allow me to fly your plane the next time you fly. I've always like planes, they can't be that hard to fly surely?
Or would you like my human right to 'do whatever I like' that you scream for so much, away and let the captain take the controls instead?
'A black man should be given the right to play James Bond' - Idiot.
However if Bond turned into an overweight mammy from alabama
Poor choice of words there. I'm sure it wasn't your intent, but that's pretty offensive. And I don't recall anyone in this debate suggesting that "A black man should be given the right to play James Bond". No one has a right to play James Bond or any other character. But there are some fans who believe it would be interesting to have a Black James Bond and others who feel that if a particular actor has the acting abilities and other traits to make a convincing Bond, then his skin color shouldn't bar him from being considered. I realize there are many who disagree with that position, and I understand their reasons for doing so, but could we please stop suggesting that advocates for a Black Bond are either "idiots" or "PC, tree-hugging nuts"? I think that would elevate the level of discourse on this issue.
The reasons why James Bond can be a Black actor or any other actor in the future be it Asian, Arabic, etc. are fairly simple. At least to me.
1. The Bond character is now a brand. He won't be dying off any time soon and can be, for better or worse, placed in any time period. That was proven starting with the Pierce Brosnan movies and on to the current Daniel Craig ones. He is boiled down just the elegant British spy.
2. The Bond character doesn't have to be like his description in the books. We've had a few actors that look nothing like what Bond describes himself to be in the books. Some have had a problem with this but after the movies turn out fine or at least fun, they ignore this problem.
Some people bring up other characters and superheroes like Superman and Batman. But these characters in the movies and comics haven't really changed physically. The are the same White guy. The settings are for the most part timeless cities. People might mess around and change lesser or supporting characters but not main ones. No one will have the nerve to make Storm, an African character a White woman. Although Halle Berry is both Black and White but that's a different argument.
What if you have James Bond being a Black guy but his mother is normal British and his father looks like Lewis Hamilton the Formula 1 driver? I wouldn't have a problem with that. I could see the problem if James Bond looked the same through all the movies. If he wasn't modernized for current society and they kept him in a similar time period. But that isn't the case.
Ok, apologies for the mammy remark, I could have used some better terminology there.
I just think life gets a bit too PC somedays. Yes, I understand that things have moved on and improved where the stakes of racial and sexual equality are concerned, but some things seem to be taking it too far. And ya know what, i think it's kinda sad when the PC brigade step in, for instance, you can't keep score in kids games because it might hurt the loosing sides feelings, how daft is that?
Anyway, the concept of a black guy playing a secret agent totally works, why shouldn't it? But a black guy playing bond? Why does he have to play bond? Is because it's such a crap concept that he needs to piggyback on the bond franchise success to get it off the floor? No, I don't think so, so why not have a stand alone franchise?
I think when it comes down to it, it's a matter of traditions. Jack and jill went up the hill, not jack and dave. Guy Gibson's dog was called.... well we know what, and James Bond is a white guy. It's not a matter of being un-PC, it's a matter of familiarities.
Silentspy states that anyone can play James Bond because it's a brand. But a brand is something you recognise. Ask people the world over who James Bond is and they'll strike the Connery pistol up against the face pose and says he's a British spy. That's the whole concept of a brand. Change that British spy for a Pakistani one and people would be like 'wheres James Bond gone?'.
Imagine if coca cola changed the red can into a bright yellow one or changed the famous scripted logo to a different design. Ah it's still the same coke inside, but people wouldn't recognise it.
Same applies with changing the appearance or sex of a character.
The whole idea of a black guy playing bond, to me, is just a PC based wind up. It's like someone chucking a fire cracker in a wake and running out the room.
A black guy isn't appropriate to play James Bond in the same way a white guy couldn't play Martin Luther King.
I've said it before, it's not about being racist, it's about suitability and appropriateness of the actor to match the characters description.
Would they ever consider an A Team reprisal with a white dude as BA or a black bloke as Delboy in any future Only Fools & Horses episode(s)? No they wouldn't ... why not? It's just not what "it's about" ... & the very same can be said about Bond imo.
Ok, apologies for the mammy remark, I could have used some better terminology there.
I just think life gets a bit too PC somedays. Yes, I understand that things have moved on and improved where the stakes of racial and sexual equality are concerned, but some things seem to be taking it too far. And ya know what, i think it's kinda sad when the PC brigade step in, for instance, you can't keep score in kids games because it might hurt the loosing sides feelings, how daft is that?
Anyway, the concept of a black guy playing a secret agent totally works, why shouldn't it? But a black guy playing bond? Why does he have to play bond? Is because it's such a crap concept that he needs to piggyback on the bond franchise success to get it off the floor? No, I don't think so, so why not have a stand alone franchise?
I think when it comes down to it, it's a matter of traditions. Jack and jill went up the hill, not jack and dave. Guy Gibson's dog was called.... well we know what, and James Bond is a white guy. It's not a matter of being un-PC, it's a matter of familiarities.
Silentspy states that anyone can play James Bond because it's a brand. But a brand is something you recognise. Ask people the world over who James Bond is and they'll strike the Connery pistol up against the face pose and says he's a British spy. That's the whole concept of a brand. Change that British spy for a Pakistani one and people would be like 'wheres James Bond gone?'.
Imagine if coca cola changed the red can into a bright yellow one or changed the famous scripted logo to a different design. Ah it's still the same coke inside, but people wouldn't recognise it.
Same applies with changing the appearance or sex of a character.
The whole idea of a black guy playing bond, to me, is just a PC based wind up. It's like someone chucking a fire cracker in a wake and running out the room.
A black guy isn't appropriate to play James Bond in the same way a white guy couldn't play Martin Luther King.
I've said it before, it's not about being racist, it's about suitability and appropriateness of the actor to match the characters description.
Good points well made, with one exception:Bond is after a fictious character and not a real person like Martin Luther King. The example of Storm is much better. Storm is fiction, but her etnicity a part of her history and who she is. It's the same with Bond.
Ok, apologies for the mammy remark, I could have used some better terminology there.
I just think life gets a bit too PC somedays. Yes, I understand that things have moved on and improved where the stakes of racial and sexual equality are concerned, but some things seem to be taking it too far. And ya know what, i think it's kinda sad when the PC brigade step in, for instance, you can't keep score in kids games because it might hurt the loosing sides feelings, how daft is that?
Anyway, the concept of a black guy playing a secret agent totally works, why shouldn't it? But a black guy playing bond? Why does he have to play bond? Is because it's such a crap concept that he needs to piggyback on the bond franchise success to get it off the floor? No, I don't think so, so why not have a stand alone franchise?
I think when it comes down to it, it's a matter of traditions. Jack and jill went up the hill, not jack and dave. Guy Gibson's dog was called.... well we know what, and James Bond is a white guy. It's not a matter of being un-PC, it's a matter of familiarities.
Silentspy states that anyone can play James Bond because it's a brand. But a brand is something you recognise. Ask people the world over who James Bond is and they'll strike the Connery pistol up against the face pose and says he's a British spy. That's the whole concept of a brand. Change that British spy for a Pakistani one and people would be like 'wheres James Bond gone?'.
Imagine if coca cola changed the red can into a bright yellow one or changed the famous scripted logo to a different design. Ah it's still the same coke inside, but people wouldn't recognise it.
Same applies with changing the appearance or sex of a character.
The whole idea of a black guy playing bond, to me, is just a PC based wind up. It's like someone chucking a fire cracker in a wake and running out the room.
A black guy isn't appropriate to play James Bond in the same way a white guy couldn't play Martin Luther King.
I've said it before, it's not about being racist, it's about suitability and appropriateness of the actor to match the characters description.
Good points well made, with one exception:Bond is after a fictious character and not a real person like Martin Luther King. The example of Storm is much better. Storm is fiction, but her etnicity a part of her history and who she is. It's the same with Bond.
The matter of real life person or fictional character is irrelevant, the common denominator connecting James Bond and Martin Luther King is that they're both famous and recognisable and prominent persons within their racial group.
I'm certain that MG was not being intentionally jerky...
Just a Paddy/Limey's POV here.
I, too, believe that MG wasn't trying to be jerky or offensive, and I acknowledged as much in my post when I said I'm sure that wasn't his intention. And again, I understand and appreciate the arguments that he and others are putting forth have against the idea of a Black actor playing Bond. It's just that the term "overweight mammy" has very negative connotations and it was grating to see it used in the post (and credit to our friend to MG for acknowledging that he could have used better terminology). Also, I really disagree with the notion that any push or support for a Black Bond can simply be chalked up to being "PC", which to me is an overused expression that has practically lost all meaning, if it ever had any legitimate meaning in the first place. My apologies to all of those who appear to be weary of this discussion, but it appears that there are still members who have thoughts to share on the subject and I sometimes have a desire to comment on those thoughts.
Personally I don't know how I would react to a black Bond.
In theory it should work because the Bond character is a civilised, at times charming, intelligent yet ruthless and menacing, higher class agent who likes Martini's, girls and Astons. Thanks to the diverse society in which we live in, it is perfectly possible for a black person to be all of these. True its not Flemming but then most of the Bond cannon deviates heavily from the master, which as others have pointed out has created a great wealth of diversity in the series. But that's theoretical and I feel I wouldn't be able to make a decision one way or another until I actually saw the film itself, of course it would all depend on actor but I couldn't tell you at the moment if I would feel unease or not at such a radical change.
The matter of real life person or fictional character is irrelevant, the common denominator connecting James Bond and Martin Luther King is that they're both famous and recognisable and prominent persons within their racial group.
Actually it's not irrelevant. Martin Luther King Jr. was one of the most notable Black / African American leaders who was assassinated by a White person. Having a White person play him would be offensive not only to Black / African Americans but a large majority of people.
I used Storm as an example because she's a popular African fictional character. One of the earlier ones in fact when there were very few.
James Bond however as in my post about being simply an "elegant British spy" can and has been altered. Even Pierce Brosnan was ok with the idea. I think Daniel Craig commented about it too but I can't recall.
This is a good article about it.
***Warning. There are racial slurs and possibly offensive terms used.***
"I’d venture to say say that casting a black actor to take over the role of Great Britain’s iconic savior is more than a template shift. It’s in some ways a reinvention of the character at a core DNA level. But that’s exactly what makes it an exciting move. The cinematic Bond has changed drastically over the years. It’s what’s kept the franchise going for six decades. He’s changed so much that, as noted above, the parts that haven’t changed are now starting to stick out like sore thumbs. Folks rejecting the notion of Elba as Bond might not be racist. It could be nothing more than that same fanboy rigidity that bristled at Daniel Craig being blonde, or hated the gunbarrel sequence not happening at the front of the last three films, or that needs to know where Goldfinger fits into Daniel Craig’s character arc (I once read a piece that suggested that all of Connery’s films “happened” between Quantum Of Solace and Skyfall). Fanboys and their linear, literal thinking aren’t necessarily racist. But when that inflexibility causes one to side with racists, some reflection might be in order."
Fanboys and their linear, literal thinking aren’t necessarily racist. But when that inflexibility causes one to side with racists, some reflection might be in order."
This is a load of that useful four letter word.
If I say something and some redneck racist buttwipe agrees with it I'm not gonna get all introspective or change what I say just to be 'unconnected' to his view. That's asinine. Dirtbags commonly use what other folk say with a twist to try and make their effed-up POV seem reasonable. That's NOT siding with them.
OMG.
Fanboys and their linear, literal thinking aren’t necessarily racist. But when that inflexibility causes one to side with racists, some reflection might be in order."
This is a load of that useful four letter word.
If I say something and some redneck racist buttwipe agrees with it I'm not gonna get all introspective or change what I say just to be 'unconnected' to his view. That's asinine. Dirtbags commonly use what other folk say with a twist to try and make their effed-up POV seem reasonable. That's NOT siding with them.
OMG.
Read the full article. Even look at my earlier example of a possible type.
The matter of real life person or fictional character is irrelevant, the common denominator connecting James Bond and Martin Luther King is that they're both famous and recognisable and prominent persons within their racial group.
Actually it's not irrelevant...
Actually it is. As I explained, the comparison was based in both people being well known and recognisable.
Ok, to make things easy lets have an experiment.
If a documentary film was being made about slavery and a black guy was cast to play william wilberforce and a few slaves including the lead character was cast as a white guy would that make the casting person factually incorrect or culturally diverse? Or would casting the roles more factually correct make the casting person racist?
Actually it's not irrelevant. Martin Luther King Jr. was one of the most notable Black / African American leaders who was assassinated by a White person. Having a White person play him would be offensive not only to Black / African Americans but a large majority of people.
No, actually, it is irrelevant. Whether fictional or not, Bond has an established background which includes him being white. So I really struggle to understand why there is a push to make Bond black. Why Bond? Why not introduce a new character to the franchise who does the same job as Bond in the MI6 and is Bond's ally? Or hell, even a whole new franchise whose main character is an MI6 assassin, and is black? Why do people have to have such disrespect for Fleming's work by changing the very fabric of the character that he created?
James Bond however as in my post about being simply an "elegant British spy" can and has been altered. Even Pierce Brosnan was ok with the idea. I think Daniel Craig commented about it too but I can't recall.
When you dissect Fleming's character, Bond is much more than simply an "elegant British spy". Bond is the sum of his experiences in the RN during the war and in his profession as a professional assassin who has seen so much death in his time that he drinks those nightmares away - a broken man who has never been able to sustain a long term relationship.
I found one of the comments to be better than the whole article, and one which raises a question that has never been answered by the pro-black Bond brigade:
My realy problem with casting a black guy as Bond is that it is novel. I personally cannot stand the idea of making a character a woman or black or whatever just "because". I don't feel this way out of racism, but more because I think it's almost worse to "throw a bone" like Bond to a black actor than to actually create an interesting black character. Why is it so difficult to come up with GOOD leading women or black men characters? Why is it always "what if James Bond were black?" instead of "Why don't we create a cool black Bond-type character?" Doing so would avoid the entire novelty of making Bond black, creates a brand new character without the baggage of a white guy, and allows the character to grow and evolve BECAUSE they are black rather than creating an obvious problem with a flat skin color change.
"Fanboys and their linear, literal thinking aren’t necessarily racist. But when that inflexibility causes one to side with racists, some reflection might be in order."
Strongly disagree. Aside from what chrisisall said below, I don't give a damn whether society thinks of me and other "inflexible fanboys" as racist; all I care about as far as Bond films is concerned is fidelity to Fleming's novels. By that I don't mean following the story word for word, but being true to the character and incorporating elements that are "Fleming-esque" - those that could easily have come from the stroke of Fleming's typewriter itself. Fleming's Bond wasn't written as a black man, therefore he cannot be black on screen.
Fanboys and their linear, literal thinking aren’t necessarily racist. But when that inflexibility causes one to side with racists, some reflection might be in order."
This is a load of that useful four letter word.
If I say something and some redneck racist buttwipe agrees with it I'm not gonna get all introspective or change what I say just to be 'unconnected' to his view. That's asinine. Dirtbags commonly use what other folk say with a twist to try and make their effed-up POV seem reasonable. That's NOT siding with them.
OMG.
Comments
+1 Well played, Sir!
-Mr Arlington Beech
Thats what I needed to hear. Please. Can we end this thread here!
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
I agree with those who have said Elba will be too old to be Bond once Craig takes over but I'm worried that if he doesn't get the role, the franchise is going to come into criticism because the debate about a "Black Bond" is so strong.
At the end of the day, it should be the best available actor and skin colour shouldn't come in to it.
Another one would soon spring up.
I think you'll find that the franchise is going to get a lot more criticism if Elba did get the role.
No. Bond should never be anything but white.
There was recently in the press a young actress who has had the rug pulled from under her after she lied about her age in an audition for a Coronation Street character. Her character is supposed to be 14, and the actress said she's 19 when in fact it's turned out she's 25 or something. The producers have pulled the plug on her getting the role as they believe she shouldn't be playing the role of someone 11 years younger than her real age.
Does the producer's of Coronation Street decision to pull the plug make them ageist?
No, they decided to pull the plug because as time goes on she could start to show her age and her character could therefore suddenly go from 14 to 25 in the space of a few months. I'd imagine that any girls with bigger.... features would probably have been binned because they didn't look younger enough.
It's not a matter of being ageist, against girls with more features than others, or in the theoretical case of casting a black man to play bond, racist, it's about if the real life physical appearance of the actor matches the description of the on screen character.
With some characters you can get away with it, for instance Dr Who, who every now and then changes form. He could 'reanimate' as a white guy, and black guy or even turn female and it wouldn't make such a big difference.
However if Bond turned into an overweight mammy from alabama then i'm pretty sure the fans would be all 'wtf has happened to james bond?!' Would such a decision make eon more diverse and culturally aware? No, it'd make them bloody mental.
So I'm sorry to all you tree hugging human rights activists who believe everyone should get a chance at doing anything they like, but the world just isn't like that.
If you think it's a sad sad thing and we should change our views and stop being so 'conformist' then allow me to fly your plane the next time you fly. I've always like planes, they can't be that hard to fly surely?
Or would you like my human right to 'do whatever I like' that you scream for so much, away and let the captain take the controls instead?
'A black man should be given the right to play James Bond' - Idiot.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Poor choice of words there. I'm sure it wasn't your intent, but that's pretty offensive. And I don't recall anyone in this debate suggesting that "A black man should be given the right to play James Bond". No one has a right to play James Bond or any other character. But there are some fans who believe it would be interesting to have a Black James Bond and others who feel that if a particular actor has the acting abilities and other traits to make a convincing Bond, then his skin color shouldn't bar him from being considered. I realize there are many who disagree with that position, and I understand their reasons for doing so, but could we please stop suggesting that advocates for a Black Bond are either "idiots" or "PC, tree-hugging nuts"? I think that would elevate the level of discourse on this issue.
Just a Paddy/Limey's POV here.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
1. The Bond character is now a brand. He won't be dying off any time soon and can be, for better or worse, placed in any time period. That was proven starting with the Pierce Brosnan movies and on to the current Daniel Craig ones. He is boiled down just the elegant British spy.
2. The Bond character doesn't have to be like his description in the books. We've had a few actors that look nothing like what Bond describes himself to be in the books. Some have had a problem with this but after the movies turn out fine or at least fun, they ignore this problem.
Some people bring up other characters and superheroes like Superman and Batman. But these characters in the movies and comics haven't really changed physically. The are the same White guy. The settings are for the most part timeless cities. People might mess around and change lesser or supporting characters but not main ones. No one will have the nerve to make Storm, an African character a White woman. Although Halle Berry is both Black and White but that's a different argument.
What if you have James Bond being a Black guy but his mother is normal British and his father looks like Lewis Hamilton the Formula 1 driver? I wouldn't have a problem with that. I could see the problem if James Bond looked the same through all the movies. If he wasn't modernized for current society and they kept him in a similar time period. But that isn't the case.
Ok, apologies for the mammy remark, I could have used some better terminology there.
I just think life gets a bit too PC somedays. Yes, I understand that things have moved on and improved where the stakes of racial and sexual equality are concerned, but some things seem to be taking it too far. And ya know what, i think it's kinda sad when the PC brigade step in, for instance, you can't keep score in kids games because it might hurt the loosing sides feelings, how daft is that?
Anyway, the concept of a black guy playing a secret agent totally works, why shouldn't it? But a black guy playing bond? Why does he have to play bond? Is because it's such a crap concept that he needs to piggyback on the bond franchise success to get it off the floor? No, I don't think so, so why not have a stand alone franchise?
I think when it comes down to it, it's a matter of traditions. Jack and jill went up the hill, not jack and dave. Guy Gibson's dog was called.... well we know what, and James Bond is a white guy. It's not a matter of being un-PC, it's a matter of familiarities.
Silentspy states that anyone can play James Bond because it's a brand. But a brand is something you recognise. Ask people the world over who James Bond is and they'll strike the Connery pistol up against the face pose and says he's a British spy. That's the whole concept of a brand. Change that British spy for a Pakistani one and people would be like 'wheres James Bond gone?'.
Imagine if coca cola changed the red can into a bright yellow one or changed the famous scripted logo to a different design. Ah it's still the same coke inside, but people wouldn't recognise it.
Same applies with changing the appearance or sex of a character.
The whole idea of a black guy playing bond, to me, is just a PC based wind up. It's like someone chucking a fire cracker in a wake and running out the room.
A black guy isn't appropriate to play James Bond in the same way a white guy couldn't play Martin Luther King.
I've said it before, it's not about being racist, it's about suitability and appropriateness of the actor to match the characters description.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Would they ever consider an A Team reprisal with a white dude as BA or a black bloke as Delboy in any future Only Fools & Horses episode(s)? No they wouldn't ... why not? It's just not what "it's about" ... & the very same can be said about Bond imo.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Good points well made, with one exception:Bond is after a fictious character and not a real person like Martin Luther King. The example of Storm is much better. Storm is fiction, but her etnicity a part of her history and who she is. It's the same with Bond.
The matter of real life person or fictional character is irrelevant, the common denominator connecting James Bond and Martin Luther King is that they're both famous and recognisable and prominent persons within their racial group.
But thanks for the compliment -{
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
I, too, believe that MG wasn't trying to be jerky or offensive, and I acknowledged as much in my post when I said I'm sure that wasn't his intention. And again, I understand and appreciate the arguments that he and others are putting forth have against the idea of a Black actor playing Bond. It's just that the term "overweight mammy" has very negative connotations and it was grating to see it used in the post (and credit to our friend to MG for acknowledging that he could have used better terminology). Also, I really disagree with the notion that any push or support for a Black Bond can simply be chalked up to being "PC", which to me is an overused expression that has practically lost all meaning, if it ever had any legitimate meaning in the first place. My apologies to all of those who appear to be weary of this discussion, but it appears that there are still members who have thoughts to share on the subject and I sometimes have a desire to comment on those thoughts.
I actually wish they would adopt that policy whenever England plays. ;%
In theory it should work because the Bond character is a civilised, at times charming, intelligent yet ruthless and menacing, higher class agent who likes Martini's, girls and Astons. Thanks to the diverse society in which we live in, it is perfectly possible for a black person to be all of these. True its not Flemming but then most of the Bond cannon deviates heavily from the master, which as others have pointed out has created a great wealth of diversity in the series. But that's theoretical and I feel I wouldn't be able to make a decision one way or another until I actually saw the film itself, of course it would all depend on actor but I couldn't tell you at the moment if I would feel unease or not at such a radical change.
Actually it's not irrelevant. Martin Luther King Jr. was one of the most notable Black / African American leaders who was assassinated by a White person. Having a White person play him would be offensive not only to Black / African Americans but a large majority of people.
I used Storm as an example because she's a popular African fictional character. One of the earlier ones in fact when there were very few.
James Bond however as in my post about being simply an "elegant British spy" can and has been altered. Even Pierce Brosnan was ok with the idea. I think Daniel Craig commented about it too but I can't recall.
This is a good article about it.
***Warning. There are racial slurs and possibly offensive terms used.***
http://badassdigest.com/2014/12/29/why-idris-elba-cant-play-james-bond/
A notable paragraph from the article -
"I’d venture to say say that casting a black actor to take over the role of Great Britain’s iconic savior is more than a template shift. It’s in some ways a reinvention of the character at a core DNA level. But that’s exactly what makes it an exciting move. The cinematic Bond has changed drastically over the years. It’s what’s kept the franchise going for six decades. He’s changed so much that, as noted above, the parts that haven’t changed are now starting to stick out like sore thumbs. Folks rejecting the notion of Elba as Bond might not be racist. It could be nothing more than that same fanboy rigidity that bristled at Daniel Craig being blonde, or hated the gunbarrel sequence not happening at the front of the last three films, or that needs to know where Goldfinger fits into Daniel Craig’s character arc (I once read a piece that suggested that all of Connery’s films “happened” between Quantum Of Solace and Skyfall). Fanboys and their linear, literal thinking aren’t necessarily racist. But when that inflexibility causes one to side with racists, some reflection might be in order."
If I say something and some redneck racist buttwipe agrees with it I'm not gonna get all introspective or change what I say just to be 'unconnected' to his view. That's asinine. Dirtbags commonly use what other folk say with a twist to try and make their effed-up POV seem reasonable. That's NOT siding with them.
OMG.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Read the full article. Even look at my earlier example of a possible type.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Actually it is. As I explained, the comparison was based in both people being well known and recognisable.
Ok, to make things easy lets have an experiment.
If a documentary film was being made about slavery and a black guy was cast to play william wilberforce and a few slaves including the lead character was cast as a white guy would that make the casting person factually incorrect or culturally diverse? Or would casting the roles more factually correct make the casting person racist?
Discuss for the next millennia....
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No, actually, it is irrelevant. Whether fictional or not, Bond has an established background which includes him being white. So I really struggle to understand why there is a push to make Bond black. Why Bond? Why not introduce a new character to the franchise who does the same job as Bond in the MI6 and is Bond's ally? Or hell, even a whole new franchise whose main character is an MI6 assassin, and is black? Why do people have to have such disrespect for Fleming's work by changing the very fabric of the character that he created?
When you dissect Fleming's character, Bond is much more than simply an "elegant British spy". Bond is the sum of his experiences in the RN during the war and in his profession as a professional assassin who has seen so much death in his time that he drinks those nightmares away - a broken man who has never been able to sustain a long term relationship.
I found one of the comments to be better than the whole article, and one which raises a question that has never been answered by the pro-black Bond brigade:
Strongly disagree. Aside from what chrisisall said below, I don't give a damn whether society thinks of me and other "inflexible fanboys" as racist; all I care about as far as Bond films is concerned is fidelity to Fleming's novels. By that I don't mean following the story word for word, but being true to the character and incorporating elements that are "Fleming-esque" - those that could easily have come from the stroke of Fleming's typewriter itself. Fleming's Bond wasn't written as a black man, therefore he cannot be black on screen.
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