I want Bond to stay with a white actor, preferably British. I would rather have a Bond with darker hair, even though I do like Craig in the role. However, Jeffrey Wright slid straight in as a black Felix Leiter and made no difference at all. In fact, I think he's the best since Jack Lord.
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I'm not going to win any argument over whether a black actor can play Bond. But I have serious problems with people saying the Bond films can't take liberties with the character. They've taken huge liberties with the stories and already had various different versions of Bond (even American if you count Barry Nelson!), all great in their own way. And you can say that Fleming's books are "gospel", because society follows the Bible as much as it can because much of the book would hold back society if we followed it strictly. But that is a whole other sensitive subject. Fleming's original stories, in my eyes, are guidelines, not rules.
And DEFIANT, the reason I say Bond being cast as a woman is ridiculous is because that is not even discussion among ANY fan. No one ever mentions it seriously. Yet the "Bond as a black man?" question has been popular for years and has many people on both sides. That is why its a valid question and "Bond as a woman?" isn't.
Morgan Freeman as a rookie Bond sounds good to me and then Daniel Radcliiff as Mandella the later years,Jackie Chan as Sherlock Holmes and Kate Winslet as Fu Manchu.
Spot On , Superdaddy. And I'd like to start a thread on Bond being played by a Woman,( some ethnic group,single parent,lesbian,adopting many children from across the world )then after a few years we can demand that to keep up with the times that a Man but in a womans Clothes should Play Bond,adding that perhaps the Name Bond is Too masculine and might be feminised a bit, somthing to do with Birth perhaps, ummmmm.... Bourne might work , And I think that will keep everyone Happy ) as I'm only second guessing Fleming here,But I'm sure that what he had in mind all along )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
HA! What a clever observation. This is just like Kate Winslet as an Asian man! H-yuck, yuck, yuck 8-)
A black male playing James Bond, an originally white male character is surely as absurd as him CHANGING GENDER. In fact, its as laughable and insane as a series of films where the main character has lived through the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s and remained in his mid-30s. That's right! You are defending a film series where the main character never ages. Also, all women are attracted to him and he escapes death on a daily basis and faces it with a light quip. Silly me, wondering if a black man could play this obviously realistic character. Its amazing what you will and WON'T buy into
The Bond series and the logic within it are not to be taken so seriously. All fans, outside of Bond purists accept this. I think some of you could face facts, realize these films are already fantastic enough to involve a black lead actor and accept that these films said "Goodbye" to reality sometime in the late 1960s.
James Bond is a character who is legally owned NOT by Ian Fleming (as he has left the building), but by his estate and the writers, directors and producers they appoint. They can do what they want with the character, no matter what Ian Fleming would have wanted. As long as the films and books are still good, I do not care what they decide. And crying "Bloody liberalism!" won't make the Black Bond question ever go away.
I think any British male could play the modern James Bond. Its just my opinion, like it or not.
HA! What a clever observation. This is just like Kate Winslet as an Asian man! H-yuck, yuck, yuck 8-)
A black male playing James Bond, an originally white male character is surely as absurd as him CHANGING GENDER. In fact, its as laughable and insane as a series of films where the main character has lived through the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s and remained in his mid-30s. That's right! You are defending a film series where the main character never ages. Also, all women are attracted to him and he escapes death on a daily basis and faces it with a light quip. Silly me, wondering if a black man could play this obviously realistic character. Its amazing what you will and WON'T buy into
The Bond series and the logic within it are not to be taken so seriously. All fans, outside of Bond purists accept this. I think some of you could face facts, realize these films are already fantastic enough to involve a black lead actor and accept that these films said "Goodbye" to reality sometime in the late 1960s.
James Bond is a character who is legally owned NOT by Ian Fleming (as he has left the building), but by his estate and the writers, directors and producers they appoint. They can do what they want with the character, no matter what Ian Fleming would have wanted. As long as the films and books are still good, I do not care what they decide. And crying "Bloody liberalism!" won't make the Black Bond question ever go away.
I think any British male could play the modern James Bond. Its just my opinion, like it or not.
And thats great Junior,thats what this site is all about and imo there is noway any british male could play the part otherwise you would have some 5ft something stubby,arty,pouting because he thinks it makes him look tough,jugeard, squashed nosed,golem/putin lovechild being given the part, oh wait perhaps your right.
Well he is british.
James Bond is a character who is legally owned NOT by Ian Fleming (as he has left the building), but by his estate and the writers, directors and producers they appoint. They can do what they want with the character, no matter what Ian Fleming would have wanted. As long as the films and books are still good, I do not care what they decide. And crying "Bloody liberalism!" won't make the Black Bond question ever go away.
I'm well aware of that. But I wasn't talking about legal ownership, I was talking about moral ownership. Yes, you're right, legally, the producers may do whatever they like with the franchise. But they risk alienating their fans, and I'm sure they don't want that. I know that if they ever appointed anyone other than a WAS(P) (not so sure about the Protestant bit) man to play the character of James Bond, I'd boycott the series. And I have a feeling I'm not going to be the only one. Hit them where it hurts - in the hip pocket.
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j.bladesCurrently? You must be joking?Posts: 530MI6 Agent
Never, no black Bond's! Fleming would come back from the grave and then commit suicide if this happened!
"I take a ridiculous pleasure in what I eat and drink."
Too bad something that started out as an intelligent, interesting discussion has degenerated into such silliness! No wonder people have reservations about delving into this issue. SHEESH!
Too bad something that started out as an intelligent, interesting discussion has degenerated into such silliness! No wonder people have reservations about delving into this issue. SHEESH!
I feel the same way. It seems the only response given, besides those given by DEFIANT, are just "Sure. And then we can cast ANYONE as Bond". This is not the point I am making. In fact, I am really moved that Defiant is as passionate about the subject as I am, even if he has an opposing view. At least, he is just shrugging it off and offering ridiculous counterpoints and having intelligent things to say. I think that this topic is almost closed, so Thank you, Defiant, for a fun discussion.
Too bad something that started out as an intelligent, interesting discussion has degenerated into such silliness! No wonder people have reservations about delving into this issue. SHEESH!
It seems the only response given, besides those given by DEFIANT, are just "Sure. And then we can cast ANYONE as Bond"
Did you even read my response to you JBJ?
James Bond isn't DC, RM, SC, PB, TD or (god forbid) GL. He is however a white, Oxbridge educated, trust fund orphan now working for MI6. As for Leiter and M etc. they are peripherals, the series is not branded to them.
To have a black Bond, changes the demographic and the history of 007, you may as well have him working for MI5 or the CIA if you change race.
Shaft: Black.
Bond: White.
Now how about a series of Double "O" movies, that can include black, asian, muslim and female agents, much like the SIS of real-life 2010?
ALSO will nobody comment on my Martini analogy earlier in this thread?
Who decided a Martini is Gin and/or Vodka? Someone did and like Bond being white IT IS JUST THE WAY IT IS. 'Nuf said.
-{ -{ -{ -{ -{
Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.
Oscar Wilde
Too bad something that started out as an intelligent, interesting discussion has degenerated into such silliness! No wonder people have reservations about delving into this issue. SHEESH!
It seems the only response given, besides those given by DEFIANT, are just "Sure. And then we can cast ANYONE as Bond"
Did you even read my response to you JBJ?
James Bond isn't DC, RM, SC, PB, TD or (god forbid) GL. He is however a white, Oxbridge educated, trust fund orphan now working for MI6. As for Leiter and M etc. they are peripherals, the series is not branded to them.
To have a black Bond, changes the demographic and the history of 007, you may as well have him working for MI5 or the CIA if you change race.
Shaft: Black.
Bond: White.
Now how about a series of Double "O" movies, that can include black, asian, muslim and female agents, much like the SIS of real-life 2010?
ALSO will nobody comment on my Martini analogy earlier in this thread?
Who decided a Martini is Gin and/or Vodka? Someone did and like Bond being white IT IS JUST THE WAY IT IS. 'Nuf said.
-{ -{ -{ -{ -{
Hi, Alec. I still don't see how turning Bond black for a FEW films would eliminate his history. Set in modern times, you can believe a black man as an Oxford trustfund brat. His history would change very little, besides what his parents looked like
I don't really know if I like an idea about other Double O's, Or even a Black character BASED on Bond, but it is an idea. I really wish the James Bond Jr series (where I take my name from) was resurrected. It was my first introduction to the Bond universe as a child and a lot of people in my generation hold it fondly. I'm more fond of that show than I am much of the post-Spy Who Loved Me Bond films. At least, return Bond to the young demographic and cater less to the old school fans if they want the series to become popular again. Just because thats how I fell in love with Bond, and I can't imagine too many young fans taking to Daniel Craig's films. In the end, I just want to see Bond reach as many fans as possible while remaining a great series.
My dream is actually to see some film based on Bond after retirement. I started a little discussion about this where Sean Connery (or Pierce Brosnan or Timothy Dalton) could return. Maybe address his Asian son from YOLT, what he's doing with Honey Ryder and setting it in the future so the writers can cram in as many gadgets as they want without looking ridiculous. By that point, Bond would be in much weaker shape and NEED gadgets and help from supporting characters. Basically, be what NSNA hinted at in the beginning and end of it.
Sorry, I can't comment on your martini question. I don't drink them : )
I still don't see how turning Bond black for a FEW films would eliminate his history. Set in modern times, you can believe a black man as an Oxford trustfund brat. His history would change very little, besides what his parents looked like
And that's more than enough for the character to be completely destroyed, in my opinion. We're going around in circles on this point, so I'll say no more.
I really wish the James Bond Jr series (where I take my name from) was resurrected. It was my first introduction to the Bond universe as a child and a lot of people in my generation hold it fondly. I'm more fond of that show than I am much of the post-Spy Who Loved Me Bond films. At least, return Bond to the young demographic and cater less to the old school fans if they want the series to become popular again. Just because thats how I fell in love with Bond, and I can't imagine too many young fans taking to Daniel Craig's films. In the end, I just want to see Bond reach as many fans as possible while remaining a great series.
I'm glad you found the James Bond Junior series to have been entertaining enough that it got you interested in Bond. But your story isn't the same as everyone else's. Are you saying that Bond is no longer relevant to the young demographic? On this point I must strongly disagree. What got me interested in Bond in the first place wasn't the James Bond Junior series, but was the early Connery films and the Ian Fleming novels. And I don't understand why you say that you can't imagine Craig's films being popular with young people? For a Bond film, Craig's movies are (very) action-packed and fast paced compared to previous Bond films - and I believe they did it to remain "relevant" to modern action movies which are, on the whole, relatively fast paced (whether I personally like this change or not is another story, but suffice it to say that I'd like a Bond film to return to its roots as an spy/espionage movie first, action movie second). Does Bond need to be black to remain relevant? Absolutely not. I do not believe that the series needs to "return Bond to the young demographic" as you put it, because, quite frankly, it was never aimed at the young demographic specifically in the first place. The fact that the younger generation seem to like it is a bonus.
I still don't see how turning Bond black for a FEW films would eliminate his history. Set in modern times, you can believe a black man as an Oxford trustfund brat. His history would change very little, besides what his parents looked like
And that's more than enough for the character to be completely destroyed, in my opinion. We're going around in circles on this point, so I'll say no more.
I really wish the James Bond Jr series (where I take my name from) was resurrected. It was my first introduction to the Bond universe as a child and a lot of people in my generation hold it fondly. I'm more fond of that show than I am much of the post-Spy Who Loved Me Bond films. At least, return Bond to the young demographic and cater less to the old school fans if they want the series to become popular again. Just because thats how I fell in love with Bond, and I can't imagine too many young fans taking to Daniel Craig's films. In the end, I just want to see Bond reach as many fans as possible while remaining a great series.
I'm glad you found the James Bond Junior series to have been entertaining enough that it got you interested in Bond. But your story isn't the same as everyone else's. Are you saying that Bond is no longer relevant to the young demographic? On this point I must strongly disagree. What got me interested in Bond in the first place wasn't the James Bond Junior series, but was the early Connery films and the Ian Fleming novels. And I don't understand why you say that you can't imagine Craig's films being popular with young people? For a Bond film, Craig's movies are (very) action-packed and fast paced compared to previous Bond films - and I believe they did it to remain "relevant" to modern action movies which are, on the whole, relatively fast paced (whether I personally like this change or not is another story, but suffice it to say that I'd like a Bond film to return to its roots as an spy/espionage movie first, action movie second). Does Bond need to be black to remain relevant? Absolutely not. I do not believe that the series needs to "return Bond to the young demographic" as you put it, because, quite frankly, it was never aimed at the young demographic specifically in the first place. The fact that the younger generation seem to like it is a bonus.
From general feedback I've read online, Craig's films are mostly popular with males in their early 20s (the crowd into violence and video games) and women seem to like him for his muscular, macho looks. In fact most Craig supporters I've talked to were barely into Bond before him. So Craig has done a lot to bring in new fans.
But when I was under the age of 13, every boy I knew loved Bond. We all watched the Connery and Moore films religiously throughout our lives. The early films were great because their sex and violence was usually only implied. With the Brosnan films the sexual innuendo became extreme. And with the Craig and Dalton films, the violence became sort of polarizing. I personally doubt that older Bond fans can sit down and watch Craig's film with their children like you can watch the classic oo7 films. I just don't think they grab the youth's tastes like the older films at all. You think they should be aimed at only mature audiences and I disagree. Nor do I think they should be aimed only at the youth, but I think they are neglecting younger fans.
I didn't say Bond must be black to be relevant. I said casting a black actor wouldn't hurt and that today's audience might actually buy into it. And why attack how I was introduced to the character. It gives you another opportunity to underline your insistence on remaining faithful to the books. But realize that other Bond fans don't hold the books in such high regard as you do. Especially when referring to the film series. I would like to see the espionage, stealth and characterization of the books return as well. But I also would like to see humor, clever action and great casting return to the films. And there are elements of the books that I'm glad were cut from the films. Remaining faithful to the original isn't always a smart move, especially when times change.
From general feedback I've read online, Craig's films are mostly popular with males in their early 20s (the crowd into violence and video games) and women seem to like him for his muscular, macho looks. In fact most Craig supporters I've talked to were barely into Bond before him. So Craig has done a lot to bring in new fans.
Which is why I'm kind of puzzled that you think Bond films need to do more to cater for a younger audience, when they're already doing so with the Craig-era films, and in addition to that Daniel Craig's Bond has brought in some new fans. This can't be a bad thing. From personal experience, it appeals to people who are in their mid teens and above.
I personally doubt that older Bond fans can sit down and watch Craig's film with their children like you can watch the classic oo7 films. I just don't think they grab the youth's tastes like the older films at all. You think they should be aimed at only mature audiences and I disagree. Nor do I think they should be aimed only at the youth, but I think they are neglecting younger fans.
You have a point there, but it depends on how you define "youth". As I mentioned before, Craig's Bond films appear to be appealing to people around their mid teens and above (no statistics to back up my assertion, only personal experience) because it is a fast-paced action movie. So I think if by youth you are referring to teenagers, then I must disagree.
And I think you misunderstood me when I said that Bond was never aimed specifically at the younger audience. What I meant was not that they should only be aimed at mature audiences, but that I don't believe that the films were ever meant to be aimed directly at youth. Nor do I believe that the producers should do more to cater for younger viewers - leave Bond as it is.
NO! No way. And I don't understand how they got the idea of casting Jeffrey Wright as Felix Leiter. I simply don't get it... Let me put it like this.
Imagine a chinese guy playing Indiana Jones.
Imagine a mexican guy playing Rambo.
Imagine a woman playing Jack Sparrow.
Imagine Jack Nickolson as Jack in Titanic.
Imagine Justin Timberlake as Forrest Gumb....
Not right is it....?
I'd say the same thing to those who think that Bond could be gay in a single film.
What does casting Jeffrey Wright as Felix Leiter have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that Felix Leiter has to be white in order for a Bond movie to work?
NO! No way. And I don't understand how they got the idea of casting Jeffrey Wright as Felix Leiter. I simply don't get it... Let me put it like this.
Imagine a chinese guy playing Indiana Jones.
Imagine a mexican guy playing Rambo.
Imagine a woman playing Jack Sparrow.
Imagine Jack Nickolson as Jack in Titanic.
Imagine Justin Timberlake as Forrest Gumb....
Not right is it....?
I'd say the same thing to those who think that Bond could be gay in a single film.
The only point that comes to mind when I see these topics is :
Making ''Bond'' Black...... would be like Making ''Shaft'' White......
Bond IS white, its part of the character, its part of his history
END OF
There is a little thing called ''tradition'' and a ''legacy'' which has to
be preserved, Bond is the Only true British Character left thats lasted
through the years, Why ruin a good strong and lasting charcter ???
I mean there is loads of American Bond fans who are happy, and they
are not crying out for an American Bond !!!! so why does The Rece element
always have to pop up every now and then when it comes to Bond
Its almost as if.... People are told somthing like ''THERE WILL NEVER BE
A BLACK JAMES BOND'' and rather than accept the fact for clear obvious
reasons, if they actualy just looked at the character in depth, watched the
films, read the books etc etc, looked into all the history of Bond.. and it
should be obvious to them ... They would rather argue about it and try and
play around with the fact that there should be .. and if they don't get there
own way like a little kid... Play the race Card.. that seems to always work .....
Sorry guys its just the way I see it .. every time this pointless topic comes up
Thunderbird 2East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,817MI6 Agent
This is my way of looking at this...
Some formats have characters that change -Trek is a good example. Different series, different mix of characters. Ie the Captains are Kirk, Picard Sisko Janeway - The original American ships captain, , a bald european older man, an African (later bald) man and a Woman. Different leading characters, different dynamics. - Different actors as a result.
Then there are those with a "fixed" leading character. Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, Harry Potter (hear me out!) and of course James Bond. Interestingly, all of those were literature before cinematic. - As a result there are certain narrative dictates that have to hold true. - I freely admit I was a doubting thomas over Mr Craig, and he has proved that some of the rules can be broken, but its a fine line. In the end it Is about the performance and the script, but Ian Flemming's writing has certain barriers that can't be broken, and must be held true.
Don't like Bond as Bond? - There is always xXx or Austin Powers. (Tried to keep a straight face). I have no doubt that sooner or later another facsimile will show up in one form or another. - One critic cited Angelina Jolie's "Salt" as a female mish mash of Bond and Bourne? (I have not seen that film myself)
As to Felix Leiter, I loved Jeffery Wright in CR, because we were getting a take on the character worthy of Bernie Casey's excellent take on the role in NSNA.
A few folk have pointed out an interesting dynamic in here - the fact a lot of people in the general audience may be completely ignorant of Bonds literary history. - As in the content and style of the books, not the fact Mr Flemming wrote them.
This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
I always find it funny how when people want to change the race of a character they always go in the same direction,So why not have a Chinese, Indian,Mexican Bond. Or the Next time an actor is needed to Play Ali, N. Mandela, or Martin Luther King. We could Cast D Craig or even M Cyrus as we could change the sex of the character as well.
I do like J Wright as Leiter, But no change for Bond Please.
Chinese, Indian, and Mexican aren't races but nationalities. Someone born in these countries could still be racially "white." The fact that in the 21st century people still don't see the distinction might be exactly the reason we need a black Bond to make the point that one can be English and not have to be white.
Morgan Freeman as a rookie Bond sounds good to me and then Daniel Radcliiff as Mandella the later years,Jackie Chan as Sherlock Holmes and Kate Winslet as Fu Manchu.
Yes, this is as absurd as Christopher Lee as Fu Manchu, Peter Lorre as Mr. Moto, Eartha Kitt or Hally Berry as Catwoman, or Casper Van Dien as Johnnie Rico.
I wouldn't trumpet a black man playing Bond but I wouldn't oppose it either, if the actor could carry out the role. The notion that the cinematic Bond must somehow conform to Fleming's "vision" is absurd given that all of the films have been adaptations and taken liberties with Fleming's originals. If we're to be that precise to the books, then all of the film actors except Craig have been too tall for the role, lacked the facial scar, and seemed to be missing the comma of hair -- and these are just the obvious physical differences.
What we have instead is mostly people's expectations based on what they've seen in the films, along with perhaps an innate understanding that the cinematic Bond represents in some form or another the last vestiges of British imperialism, and that is probably best expressed by a WASP than a person of color.
Daniel Craig's wildly successful Bond films show that Bond doesn't even have to be dark-haired for people to take the character seriously. Judi Dench shows that a female M can be just as ballsout and credible as a male version.
So while I can't think of a black actor today I would want to play Bond, I wouldn't be troubled if they found the right person, just as I think Jeffrey Wright's the best Felix Leiter to make it to the screen in years.
Regardless of who Fleming's estate is, who hires/commissions/allows who to make Bond, the essence of James Bond must undeniably stay true to Ian Fleming's creation. Otherwise it is no longer Bond. Setting Bond in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s or the current day necessitates a modernisation of Bond. It would be an absurb parody to have the exact Bond of Fleming floating around in 2011 with his attitudes, speech, dress and actions - but the underlying core of Bond must always be retained or we drift too far away from the original creation and Bond is little more than Bond in name only (as has happened during different cinematic periods). Because of changes in British society since the books were written, a black Bond could work today - but it would have to be a public-schooled Bond who was perhaps adopted and raised by white parents and had Bond's quirks, attitudes and opinions...ie someone who was likely very white just with black skin. Bond could not be the son of working class Jamaican immigrants anymore than he could be the son of a Yorkshire coal miner. So really, if Bond has black skin but is actually whiter than white is there really any point in him being black at all?
There is now and always will be only one Bond - Fleming's Bond. The films made post-Fleming are wonderful, thoroughly entertaining and I love them - but if you want the true Bond the only place to look is in the books and a black Bond could only work under very specific conditions which would make the decision pointless.
Regardless of who Fleming's estate is, who hires/commissions/allows who to make Bond, the essence of James Bond must undeniably stay true to Ian Fleming's creation. Otherwise it is no longer Bond. Setting Bond in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s or the current day necessitates a modernisation of Bond. It would be an absurb parody to have the exact Bond of Fleming floating around in 2011 with his attitudes, speech, dress and actions - but the underlying core of Bond must always be retained or we drift too far away from the original creation and Bond is little more than Bond in name only (as has happened during different cinematic periods). Because of changes in British society since the books were written, a black Bond could work today - but it would have to be a public-schooled Bond who was perhaps adopted and raised by white parents and had Bond's quirks, attitudes and opinions...ie someone who was likely very white just with black skin. Bond could not be the son of working class Jamaican immigrants anymore than he could be the son of a Yorkshire coal miner. So really, if Bond has black skin but is actually whiter than white is there really any point in him being black at all?
There is now and always will be only one Bond - Fleming's Bond. The films made post-Fleming are wonderful, thoroughly entertaining and I love them - but if you want the true Bond the only place to look is in the books and a black Bond could only work under very specific conditions which would make the decision pointless.
You do make quite an interesting point Domino but I still think making Bond black will further distance the character away from Fleming's creation. It will also show that Bond has become a victim of todays politically correct culture.
I would have no problems with a black, Bond-like character similar to the one you described elsewhere, but I don't think that sort of change can be made to "Ian Fleming's James Bond". It just seems too radical IMO.
You do make quite an interesting point Domino but I still think making Bond black will further distance the character away from Fleming's creation. It will also show that Bond has become a victim of todays politically correct culture.
I would have no problems with a black, Bond-like character similar to the one you described elsewhere, but I don't think that sort of change can be made to "Ian Fleming's James Bond". It just seems too radical IMO.
I actually agree with you entirely, even if that didn't quite come across in my earlier posting. I can see how it would work if there was some agenda to do so, but I think it is completely unnecessary, would be an error and is certainly not something I would like to see happen.
I have no qualms with M being played by a woman (although I would like to see it going back to a male in the future)
I also have no problems with a black man playing Felix (in fact Jeffery Wright is one of my favourite actors to portray Leiter.
However having a black Bond just doesn't sit right with me. It just doesn't feel right. Personal opinion of course.
How about another black villain in the Kananga mould? He's one of my favourite Bond villains of all time. Or how about an ally? The possibilities to include more black/asian actors in James Bond films are huge! But never as Bond for me.
My this is an old thread, to answer Grassy Man about the difference between Race and Nationalites.
In traditional anthropological studies there are actually 5 races.
These are
1) Mongoloid (Asian and American Indian)
2) Caucasoid (European)
3) Australoid (Australian and oceanic)
4) Negroid (east African black)
5) Capoid (south African black)
So I think you'll find a Chinese Bond would indeed be a different race to a Black Bond or a White European Bond.
And I'd be very happy to see Adrian Lester as the first Black Bond. He's a good actor and he's British. -{
( Always like to contradict Myself ) )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
This such a stupid topic, designed to evoke strong feeling and defensive behavior. I don't want a black Bond. It's not what it's about. Bond is a white British agent. And to be honest, he should not have blond hair either.
I am not racist. Not in the slightest. I was with a black woman for years, I loved her, and I miss her. I miss her brothers too.
If a new film came out with a good black actor in it, I would watch it without question. The fact that they are black means nothing to me either way - if it's good, it's good.
I have watched Hamlet with an all black cast, and to be honest, it made no difference - accept for the fact that most people were there because of the fact, which either made 1/2 the audience "reverse" prejudice, and the other 1/2 race curious. I was there because I wanted to sh*g the girl who had the tickets and would have sat through anything. The play was good BTW. The sh*g was bloody amazing... :v
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I don`t want black Bond. Idris Elba starring in a new action franchise would be great, but not as Bond. Bond is the son of a Scotsman and a Swiss mother, the father is of a noble family.
I believe Americans would object to a Chinese Superman, as they should. The same thing for Bond.
Comments
Shaft= black actor.
End of discussion.
http://apbateman.com
And DEFIANT, the reason I say Bond being cast as a woman is ridiculous is because that is not even discussion among ANY fan. No one ever mentions it seriously. Yet the "Bond as a black man?" question has been popular for years and has many people on both sides. That is why its a valid question and "Bond as a woman?" isn't.
A black male playing James Bond, an originally white male character is surely as absurd as him CHANGING GENDER. In fact, its as laughable and insane as a series of films where the main character has lived through the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s and remained in his mid-30s. That's right! You are defending a film series where the main character never ages. Also, all women are attracted to him and he escapes death on a daily basis and faces it with a light quip. Silly me, wondering if a black man could play this obviously realistic character. Its amazing what you will and WON'T buy into
The Bond series and the logic within it are not to be taken so seriously. All fans, outside of Bond purists accept this. I think some of you could face facts, realize these films are already fantastic enough to involve a black lead actor and accept that these films said "Goodbye" to reality sometime in the late 1960s.
James Bond is a character who is legally owned NOT by Ian Fleming (as he has left the building), but by his estate and the writers, directors and producers they appoint. They can do what they want with the character, no matter what Ian Fleming would have wanted. As long as the films and books are still good, I do not care what they decide. And crying "Bloody liberalism!" won't make the Black Bond question ever go away.
I think any British male could play the modern James Bond. Its just my opinion, like it or not.
Well he is british.
I'm well aware of that. But I wasn't talking about legal ownership, I was talking about moral ownership. Yes, you're right, legally, the producers may do whatever they like with the franchise. But they risk alienating their fans, and I'm sure they don't want that. I know that if they ever appointed anyone other than a WAS(P) (not so sure about the Protestant bit) man to play the character of James Bond, I'd boycott the series. And I have a feeling I'm not going to be the only one. Hit them where it hurts - in the hip pocket.
~ Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
I feel the same way. It seems the only response given, besides those given by DEFIANT, are just "Sure. And then we can cast ANYONE as Bond". This is not the point I am making. In fact, I am really moved that Defiant is as passionate about the subject as I am, even if he has an opposing view. At least, he is just shrugging it off and offering ridiculous counterpoints and having intelligent things to say. I think that this topic is almost closed, so Thank you, Defiant, for a fun discussion.
Did you even read my response to you JBJ?
James Bond isn't DC, RM, SC, PB, TD or (god forbid) GL. He is however a white, Oxbridge educated, trust fund orphan now working for MI6. As for Leiter and M etc. they are peripherals, the series is not branded to them.
To have a black Bond, changes the demographic and the history of 007, you may as well have him working for MI5 or the CIA if you change race.
Shaft: Black.
Bond: White.
Now how about a series of Double "O" movies, that can include black, asian, muslim and female agents, much like the SIS of real-life 2010?
ALSO will nobody comment on my Martini analogy earlier in this thread?
Who decided a Martini is Gin and/or Vodka? Someone did and like Bond being white IT IS JUST THE WAY IT IS. 'Nuf said.
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Oscar Wilde
Hi, Alec. I still don't see how turning Bond black for a FEW films would eliminate his history. Set in modern times, you can believe a black man as an Oxford trustfund brat. His history would change very little, besides what his parents looked like
I don't really know if I like an idea about other Double O's, Or even a Black character BASED on Bond, but it is an idea. I really wish the James Bond Jr series (where I take my name from) was resurrected. It was my first introduction to the Bond universe as a child and a lot of people in my generation hold it fondly. I'm more fond of that show than I am much of the post-Spy Who Loved Me Bond films. At least, return Bond to the young demographic and cater less to the old school fans if they want the series to become popular again. Just because thats how I fell in love with Bond, and I can't imagine too many young fans taking to Daniel Craig's films. In the end, I just want to see Bond reach as many fans as possible while remaining a great series.
My dream is actually to see some film based on Bond after retirement. I started a little discussion about this where Sean Connery (or Pierce Brosnan or Timothy Dalton) could return. Maybe address his Asian son from YOLT, what he's doing with Honey Ryder and setting it in the future so the writers can cram in as many gadgets as they want without looking ridiculous. By that point, Bond would be in much weaker shape and NEED gadgets and help from supporting characters. Basically, be what NSNA hinted at in the beginning and end of it.
Sorry, I can't comment on your martini question. I don't drink them : )
And that's more than enough for the character to be completely destroyed, in my opinion. We're going around in circles on this point, so I'll say no more.
I'm glad you found the James Bond Junior series to have been entertaining enough that it got you interested in Bond. But your story isn't the same as everyone else's. Are you saying that Bond is no longer relevant to the young demographic? On this point I must strongly disagree. What got me interested in Bond in the first place wasn't the James Bond Junior series, but was the early Connery films and the Ian Fleming novels. And I don't understand why you say that you can't imagine Craig's films being popular with young people? For a Bond film, Craig's movies are (very) action-packed and fast paced compared to previous Bond films - and I believe they did it to remain "relevant" to modern action movies which are, on the whole, relatively fast paced (whether I personally like this change or not is another story, but suffice it to say that I'd like a Bond film to return to its roots as an spy/espionage movie first, action movie second). Does Bond need to be black to remain relevant? Absolutely not. I do not believe that the series needs to "return Bond to the young demographic" as you put it, because, quite frankly, it was never aimed at the young demographic specifically in the first place. The fact that the younger generation seem to like it is a bonus.
From general feedback I've read online, Craig's films are mostly popular with males in their early 20s (the crowd into violence and video games) and women seem to like him for his muscular, macho looks. In fact most Craig supporters I've talked to were barely into Bond before him. So Craig has done a lot to bring in new fans.
But when I was under the age of 13, every boy I knew loved Bond. We all watched the Connery and Moore films religiously throughout our lives. The early films were great because their sex and violence was usually only implied. With the Brosnan films the sexual innuendo became extreme. And with the Craig and Dalton films, the violence became sort of polarizing. I personally doubt that older Bond fans can sit down and watch Craig's film with their children like you can watch the classic oo7 films. I just don't think they grab the youth's tastes like the older films at all. You think they should be aimed at only mature audiences and I disagree. Nor do I think they should be aimed only at the youth, but I think they are neglecting younger fans.
I didn't say Bond must be black to be relevant. I said casting a black actor wouldn't hurt and that today's audience might actually buy into it. And why attack how I was introduced to the character. It gives you another opportunity to underline your insistence on remaining faithful to the books. But realize that other Bond fans don't hold the books in such high regard as you do. Especially when referring to the film series. I would like to see the espionage, stealth and characterization of the books return as well. But I also would like to see humor, clever action and great casting return to the films. And there are elements of the books that I'm glad were cut from the films. Remaining faithful to the original isn't always a smart move, especially when times change.
Which is why I'm kind of puzzled that you think Bond films need to do more to cater for a younger audience, when they're already doing so with the Craig-era films, and in addition to that Daniel Craig's Bond has brought in some new fans. This can't be a bad thing. From personal experience, it appeals to people who are in their mid teens and above.
You have a point there, but it depends on how you define "youth". As I mentioned before, Craig's Bond films appear to be appealing to people around their mid teens and above (no statistics to back up my assertion, only personal experience) because it is a fast-paced action movie. So I think if by youth you are referring to teenagers, then I must disagree.
And I think you misunderstood me when I said that Bond was never aimed specifically at the younger audience. What I meant was not that they should only be aimed at mature audiences, but that I don't believe that the films were ever meant to be aimed directly at youth. Nor do I believe that the producers should do more to cater for younger viewers - leave Bond as it is.
Imagine a chinese guy playing Indiana Jones.
Imagine a mexican guy playing Rambo.
Imagine a woman playing Jack Sparrow.
Imagine Jack Nickolson as Jack in Titanic.
Imagine Justin Timberlake as Forrest Gumb....
Not right is it....?
I'd say the same thing to those who think that Bond could be gay in a single film.
Making ''Bond'' Black...... would be like Making ''Shaft'' White......
Bond IS white, its part of the character, its part of his history
END OF
There is a little thing called ''tradition'' and a ''legacy'' which has to
be preserved, Bond is the Only true British Character left thats lasted
through the years, Why ruin a good strong and lasting charcter ???
I mean there is loads of American Bond fans who are happy, and they
are not crying out for an American Bond !!!! so why does The Rece element
always have to pop up every now and then when it comes to Bond
Its almost as if.... People are told somthing like ''THERE WILL NEVER BE
A BLACK JAMES BOND'' and rather than accept the fact for clear obvious
reasons, if they actualy just looked at the character in depth, watched the
films, read the books etc etc, looked into all the history of Bond.. and it
should be obvious to them ... They would rather argue about it and try and
play around with the fact that there should be .. and if they don't get there
own way like a little kid... Play the race Card.. that seems to always work .....
Sorry guys its just the way I see it .. every time this pointless topic comes up
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Some formats have characters that change -Trek is a good example. Different series, different mix of characters. Ie the Captains are Kirk, Picard Sisko Janeway - The original American ships captain, , a bald european older man, an African (later bald) man and a Woman. Different leading characters, different dynamics. - Different actors as a result.
Then there are those with a "fixed" leading character. Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, Harry Potter (hear me out!) and of course James Bond. Interestingly, all of those were literature before cinematic. - As a result there are certain narrative dictates that have to hold true. - I freely admit I was a doubting thomas over Mr Craig, and he has proved that some of the rules can be broken, but its a fine line. In the end it Is about the performance and the script, but Ian Flemming's writing has certain barriers that can't be broken, and must be held true.
Don't like Bond as Bond? - There is always xXx or Austin Powers. (Tried to keep a straight face). I have no doubt that sooner or later another facsimile will show up in one form or another. - One critic cited Angelina Jolie's "Salt" as a female mish mash of Bond and Bourne? (I have not seen that film myself)
As to Felix Leiter, I loved Jeffery Wright in CR, because we were getting a take on the character worthy of Bernie Casey's excellent take on the role in NSNA.
A few folk have pointed out an interesting dynamic in here - the fact a lot of people in the general audience may be completely ignorant of Bonds literary history. - As in the content and style of the books, not the fact Mr Flemming wrote them.
I wouldn't trumpet a black man playing Bond but I wouldn't oppose it either, if the actor could carry out the role. The notion that the cinematic Bond must somehow conform to Fleming's "vision" is absurd given that all of the films have been adaptations and taken liberties with Fleming's originals. If we're to be that precise to the books, then all of the film actors except Craig have been too tall for the role, lacked the facial scar, and seemed to be missing the comma of hair -- and these are just the obvious physical differences.
What we have instead is mostly people's expectations based on what they've seen in the films, along with perhaps an innate understanding that the cinematic Bond represents in some form or another the last vestiges of British imperialism, and that is probably best expressed by a WASP than a person of color.
Daniel Craig's wildly successful Bond films show that Bond doesn't even have to be dark-haired for people to take the character seriously. Judi Dench shows that a female M can be just as ballsout and credible as a male version.
So while I can't think of a black actor today I would want to play Bond, I wouldn't be troubled if they found the right person, just as I think Jeffrey Wright's the best Felix Leiter to make it to the screen in years.
There is now and always will be only one Bond - Fleming's Bond. The films made post-Fleming are wonderful, thoroughly entertaining and I love them - but if you want the true Bond the only place to look is in the books and a black Bond could only work under very specific conditions which would make the decision pointless.
You do make quite an interesting point Domino but I still think making Bond black will further distance the character away from Fleming's creation. It will also show that Bond has become a victim of todays politically correct culture.
I would have no problems with a black, Bond-like character similar to the one you described elsewhere, but I don't think that sort of change can be made to "Ian Fleming's James Bond". It just seems too radical IMO.
I actually agree with you entirely, even if that didn't quite come across in my earlier posting. I can see how it would work if there was some agenda to do so, but I think it is completely unnecessary, would be an error and is certainly not something I would like to see happen.
I also have no problems with a black man playing Felix (in fact Jeffery Wright is one of my favourite actors to portray Leiter.
However having a black Bond just doesn't sit right with me. It just doesn't feel right. Personal opinion of course.
How about another black villain in the Kananga mould? He's one of my favourite Bond villains of all time. Or how about an ally? The possibilities to include more black/asian actors in James Bond films are huge! But never as Bond for me.
So I think you'll find a Chinese Bond would indeed be a different race to a Black Bond or a White European Bond.
And I'd be very happy to see Adrian Lester as the first Black Bond. He's a good actor and he's British. -{
( Always like to contradict Myself
I am not racist. Not in the slightest. I was with a black woman for years, I loved her, and I miss her. I miss her brothers too.
If a new film came out with a good black actor in it, I would watch it without question. The fact that they are black means nothing to me either way - if it's good, it's good.
I have watched Hamlet with an all black cast, and to be honest, it made no difference - accept for the fact that most people were there because of the fact, which either made 1/2 the audience "reverse" prejudice, and the other 1/2 race curious. I was there because I wanted to sh*g the girl who had the tickets and would have sat through anything. The play was good BTW. The sh*g was bloody amazing... :v
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I believe Americans would object to a Chinese Superman, as they should. The same thing for Bond.