guys, the opinions are not so different. Like almost everyone said, this project should be transparent and open and this seems to be the consensus here.
I for my part don't enjoy as well being told by others what to do or not and that was nms75's major message (probably put into drastic words).
I respect his opinion as much as ke02eww's pov.
Let's sit back and see, what Mac is coming up with.
Yes it is, my opinions (and I admit they can be a bit strong at times) are mainly centred around the fact this project has gone into secret/behind-the-scenes. It should be open and transparent, especially in view of the fact money has changed hands and that a number of fairly serious issues with the design and copyright etc. have been raised. If you pull this off by making an excellent product that avoids the potential legal wrath of S.T. Dupont and comes in at a decent price then I'll congratulate you and start to sing your praises - heck I might even buy a pair!!! However, I cannot support something until it comes out fully into the open!
NMS
A sense of humour is no laughing matter!
Thunderbird 2East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,817MI6 Agent
i think you better before nms's bollox turn purple from his twisted knickers.
Mini G you should consider stand up comedy - I have tears running down my face from laughing at this!
If I may be so bold - I never really liked the "Coffin" shape cufflinks. I prefer mine to be balanced and symmetrical, both in weight and shape, because I find they sit on my shirts better. Long and or narrow ones can cause "pinching" of the double cuffs. Good luck with the project though. - On more than one front.
This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
You use the word "desist" a lot! Perhaps you should desist from acting like self-appointed member of the forum staff?! This project is not above board as it has gone into secret and many if us are now in the dark about it. Sir Miles did say above it shouldn't go 'behind the scenes' yet that is exactly what Mac (and you) are doing!
And for the record I will use WHATEVER smilies I want - DO NOT ever tell me what to do again!
NMD
TGIF.... After a long day at work it's always a joy to escape into my favourite forum....
To see this lot.
However when I stopped laughing, I Tgt I'd try a reply.
Firstly I apologise if any offense was taken....especially with the word desist.
Secondly, i suggest reading what is written .....and before jumping to conclusions and sliming members I suggest u look at the facts. Why do I get a sense of de ja vu here?
If mac sends me an email making requests and I reply suggesting he go back to the thread and open it up to all for the more sensible and rational members to offer help, how does that fit your conspiracy theory ? "Sir Miles did say above it shouldn't go 'behind the scenes' yet that is exactly what Mac (and you) are doing!"
If you have an issue with me personally I suggest a pm. I have a very busy life but I always reply as soon as I can.
And as regards telling you or for that matter anyone else on here, what to do, I'm afraid I can't think why I'd bother .....
My aim with the last three responses was to try to HELP get the project back on the straight and narrow as it has clearly stumbled ( for the usual well meaning but inexperienced reasons) but I havnt seen any REAL reasons to doubt mac's integrity, nor justify the abuse that decorates this whole thread.
I offered possible explanations for the clear problems we have seen
I openly but respectfully suggested that mac offer some explanations.
I offered those who have paid some comfort and advice on how to manage their risks.
I have supported with advice/knowledge and money, virtually every project this forum has embarked upon. This is no different.
But being a good friend often means delivering bad news and I hope mac will agree I have been fair, supportive but honest .
You accused me of behaving like a self appointed member of the forum staff.
I have nothing but respect for the selfless and anonymous time and effort required of the actual mods on here...I think mantis summed it up very well.
I simply don't have the time nor the skill to perform this task, especially as their task has grown recently with the increasing number of poisonous and childish responses on this forum.
That is simply a great shame.
But I had a question for you nms75 - and this is neither an accusation nor an attempt at humour.
It seems to me your anxiety is based upon your fear that underground conspiracies are afoot on your own forum, and you state you cannot bring yourself to provide the enormous power of your support and appproval until the conspirators have fessed up to the world (oh and you) how precisely they are going to fulfill their fiduciary obligation to deliver satisfactory cufflinks.
May I ask how those of us short of sight and deep in conspiracy, will notice this support?
As to those who attempted to offer me support as usual I feel humbled.
Now I'll take my own advice and leave the floor to mac should he bother to risk the "den of snipers" - JOKE
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,769Chief of Staff
Oh dear.....perhaps everyone needs 48 hours away from this thread to gather their heads....
As money has changed hands it would seem prudent to keep as much as possible on the thread....certainly anyone whom has paid should be 'kept in the loop' via PM at least....but thats just my opinion...
If Mac wishes to garner help via the PM system, that shouldn't be a problem either....certainly it shouldn't be viewed as though he is trying to hide something...and ke02eww has prior experience, which could prove invaluable to Mac...I'd certainly bow to his knowledge....
As for people being 'self-appointed' MODS....I'm not sure where this comes from..?..perhaps we all need to re-read a post from time to time before we jump to conclusions...?...
Please...if we can stay on topic and try and be constructive.... -{
When I have updates to the project, I will leave a message here. In the time being, I am still trying to gather measurements, but have a member who has offered to give me them, and I am awaiting his reply.
I am truly sorry, but I must ask you to refund my money.
Reason: I have done a thorough search, and found that the cufflinks used in QoS made by ST Dupont are available, and they would also even cost me less(£138) than what I have paid for these(£198).
I very much preferred the QoS cufflinks over the ones from CR, but I simply assumed they weren't available, and the offer presented here was the first and best (I thought) I would find. 8-)
It has nothing to do with the quality of this product, but with my simply finding the cufflinks from QoS more to my liking than the cufflinks from CR.
I very much preferred the QoS cufflinks over the ones from CR, but I simply assumed they weren't available, and the offer presented here was the first and best (I thought) I would find. 8-)
You buying these from Elegant Pens by any chance? :007) I believe the 5172 cufflinks are still in production as I noticed they were still on S.T. Dupont's web site last time I looked a couple of months back. I have a pair myself and they are excellent. Not, therefore, as rare or expensive as the 'coffin' shaped 5244's but I agree they are nicer.
You buying these from Elegant Pens by any chance? :007) I believe the 5172 cufflinks are still in production as I noticed they were still on S.T. Dupont's web site last time I looked a couple of months back. I have a pair myself and they are excellent. Not, therefore, as rare or expensive as the 'coffin' shaped 5244's but I agree they are nicer.
NMS
Yes, that's correct! Elegant Pens was the name of the website.
You buying these from Elegant Pens by any chance? :007) I believe the 5172 cufflinks are still in production as I noticed they were still on S.T. Dupont's web site last time I looked a couple of months back. I have a pair myself and they are excellent. Not, therefore, as rare or expensive as the 'coffin' shaped 5244's but I agree they are nicer.
NMS
Yes, that's correct! Elegant Pens was the name of the website.
I have had several pairs of S.T. Dupont cufflinks from Elegant Pens and I can say their service is very good! Hope you enjoy wearing them in good health
I understand you asking for a refund, but I've already sent a 50% portion of your money to the cufflink maker to start production. If you want, I can refund the other £98 to you, to put towards the QOS cufflinks?
..... but I've already sent a 50% portion of your money to the cufflink maker to start production.
?:) which production?
I thought, that we are in the prototype stage and "gathering-infos-phase"......
If you are asking me, it works like this:
1. Cufflink-guy: Give me your estimate and make me a prototype
2. After the prototype has been done and approved, start production
3. After receiving the product and I am happy with it, I'll pay
(at stage 2 there may be a 20-50% downpayment but the prototypes have not been approved yet, so, the production can't be running...)
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Okay, the price is finalised at £196 shipped to your location.
If everyone could please let me know that that's alright, so I can get back to the company and give them the go ahead. It's a 50% deposit at the start, and 50% on completion.
even it does not make sense to me at all.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Okay, the price is finalised at £196 shipped to your location.
If everyone could please let me know that that's alright, so I can get back to the company and give them the go ahead. It's a 50% deposit at the start, and 50% on completion.
even it does not make sense to me at all.
As I read it he wanted 50% of the price of the finished cufflinks upfront then the other 50% upon completion before shipping the finished product out - which is fair enough. However, does the above post made by Tom indicate that he took all the £196 (or is it £198 now - we have several different figures in this threas?!) and is only prepared to offer half of it back?!?!?! I too am confused!
Okay, the price is finalised at £196 shipped to your location.
If everyone could please let me know that that's alright, so I can get back to the company and give them the go ahead. It's a 50% deposit at the start, and 50% on completion.
even it does not make sense to me at all.
Sorry, but I couldn't help comment on this.
It seems like everyone that has ordered one should only have paid £98 and not £198 for the pre order. So the production cost is only £98 if that is the amount that was sent to the production company.
Then should be no problem in getting a full refund then? Right?
Okay, the price is finalised at £196 shipped to your location.
If everyone could please let me know that that's alright, so I can get back to the company and give them the go ahead. It's a 50% deposit at the start, and 50% on completion.
even it does not make sense to me at all.
Deposit didn't happen(at least not in my case). Mac asked for the full sum, which I handed over without questions.
I never intended to fool Mac, I just believe the participants should be given the chance to walk out if they wanted to, in the same easy manner as they entered.
To prove that the money will be spent on what is an extremely similar(if not identical) purchase, the only difference being a matter of individual taste(not on me doubhting the quality and success of the project, which I never have), I will upload pictures of the QoS cufflinks which I intend to order immediately after I have received the money back, when I receive them in the mail!
I understand you asking for a refund, but I've already sent a 50% portion of your money to the cufflink maker to start production. If you want, I can refund the other £98 to you, to put towards the QOS cufflinks?
What would I change about it? I can't find anything about it that I would actually keep! So far the only mild similarity to these and the real deal, is that they are both made out of some kind of metal. I can't even say for sure that what I'm seeing would even serve as actual cufflinks, as I don't even see any sort of a hinge mechanism which would be needed to put it on a shirt cuff. They don't even look symmetrical!
I can drive into Chinatown (about 30 minutes away from me), and for $50 I can walk out with a knock-off version of a $3,000 Omega watch that would fool even the sharpest watch aficionado. I too bought the fairly reasonable replicas from Costume Base for $30, so I figured for $325.00 I should at least be impressed, if not totally blown away.
Mac, as a budding entrepreneur myself, (who isn't these days,) I can certainly recognize you were using the Trump method of launching projects - find the demand, seek out financial backers, then use that cash to build your product. The operative difference here is that Donald Trump knows how to build buildings.
The bottomline is that the 'prototypes' you posted bear no resemblance whatsoever to the photos you posted on page 2. I have a tough time even believing that you were working with someone who makes a living as a genuine cufflink maker. These look like something that was put together in a high school shop class.
Unless a miracle happens, I think we should discuss refunds to those of us who shelled out cash.
I'm almost afraid to comment on this thread anymore, I don't feel like throwing fuel on the fire. So I apologize to all those who are sick of looking at this thread. But as someone who paid in to the project, I really don't see why there shouldn't be a 100% refund if the aren't up to snuff.
A. I think Mac should be able to get the money back if the designs don't match what he submitted. Even if Mac didn't submit a complete design, if the designer took the job based on photos, then he should be able to match what he sees, or refund Mac his deposit. Was there any discussion with the cufflink-maker about potential refunds if the project doesn't pan out?
Not to mention, I think paying half the price of a completed job for only a preliminary design doesn't make much sense.
B. If the designer refuses to refund, I still say we should get a complete refund. Mac would still be free to sell the cufflinks on Ebay or wherever he wanted.
I responded by saying that I would see the project through to the end, but that I think all up paid in should be offered 100% refunds if they don't feel the end product is up to snuff (as I explained above), but he has not responded since.
Is it just me or does anyone else smell one of these?
I don't want to go that far. If Mac's motives were bad, he'd be long gone by now. I just think his project was poorly planned (and going to make us $400 poorer in the process!)
Without doubting Mac's credibility (as that's yet to be seen). I can personally say that I would never hand over almost £200 for anything without seeing what I was buying first. I'm surprised that anyone would.
Just seems like a lot of confidence to put in somebody who is merely meeting supply with demand.
No offence to anyone who has paid in to this; but what was that old saying?
Without doubting Mac's credibility (as that's yet to be seen). I can personally say that I would never hand over almost £200 for anything without seeing what I was buying first. I'm surprised that anyone would.
Just seems like a lot of confidence to put in somebody who is merely meeting supply with demand.
No offence to anyone who has paid in to this; but what was that old saying?
Regards,
Wilde
I believe everyone deserves to be treated with respect, and not be met with prejudice.
Brings to mind another saying: "what goes around, comes around!"
Just seems like a lot of confidence to put in somebody who is merely meeting supply with demand.
I hate to say it, but it's a great point!
Trust me, my red flags went up when Mac first sent me the request for payment. I even messaged fellow ABJ users to see if they had any dealings with Mac before, but none had. So I was really just going on blind faith. But having said that, I have only had good luck with projects on AJB, so since most of the people here were going along without any real reservations, I just followed along. Not too bright, I know -- but as I said, I've only had good experiences on AJB.
"Resurrection."
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,769Chief of Staff
Ok guys...systematically ripping Mac to bits just isn't going to help....
My take is....unless you paid in....stay out/away from posting in this thread....it's very easy to throw stones...I don't see anybody being constructive...I can totally understand how people must feel if they've paid the best part of £200 and are now looking down the barrel....
I can only suggest the people who have paid the money up-front contact each other and see what each of you feels...and how you wish to proceed....either to carry on with the deal or look for refunds....
As I said...this is ONLY MY SUGGESTION....it's really up to the people who have paid to decide to what action to take...I would please ask everyone else to back away from this thread...read it by all means....offer help where it may be needed...but please desist from flaming....
Comments
Maybe I should go commando?
NMS
As always, very well said, Bondtoys! {[]
NMS
Yes it is, my opinions (and I admit they can be a bit strong at times) are mainly centred around the fact this project has gone into secret/behind-the-scenes. It should be open and transparent, especially in view of the fact money has changed hands and that a number of fairly serious issues with the design and copyright etc. have been raised. If you pull this off by making an excellent product that avoids the potential legal wrath of S.T. Dupont and comes in at a decent price then I'll congratulate you and start to sing your praises - heck I might even buy a pair!!! However, I cannot support something until it comes out fully into the open!
NMS
Mini G you should consider stand up comedy - I have tears running down my face from laughing at this!
If I may be so bold - I never really liked the "Coffin" shape cufflinks. I prefer mine to be balanced and symmetrical, both in weight and shape, because I find they sit on my shirts better. Long and or narrow ones can cause "pinching" of the double cuffs. Good luck with the project though. - On more than one front.
TGIF.... After a long day at work it's always a joy to escape into my favourite forum....
To see this lot.
However when I stopped laughing, I Tgt I'd try a reply.
Firstly I apologise if any offense was taken....especially with the word desist.
Secondly, i suggest reading what is written .....and before jumping to conclusions and sliming members I suggest u look at the facts. Why do I get a sense of de ja vu here?
If mac sends me an email making requests and I reply suggesting he go back to the thread and open it up to all for the more sensible and rational members to offer help, how does that fit your conspiracy theory ? "Sir Miles did say above it shouldn't go 'behind the scenes' yet that is exactly what Mac (and you) are doing!"
If you have an issue with me personally I suggest a pm. I have a very busy life but I always reply as soon as I can.
And as regards telling you or for that matter anyone else on here, what to do, I'm afraid I can't think why I'd bother .....
My aim with the last three responses was to try to HELP get the project back on the straight and narrow as it has clearly stumbled ( for the usual well meaning but inexperienced reasons) but I havnt seen any REAL reasons to doubt mac's integrity, nor justify the abuse that decorates this whole thread.
I offered possible explanations for the clear problems we have seen
I openly but respectfully suggested that mac offer some explanations.
I offered those who have paid some comfort and advice on how to manage their risks.
I have supported with advice/knowledge and money, virtually every project this forum has embarked upon. This is no different.
But being a good friend often means delivering bad news and I hope mac will agree I have been fair, supportive but honest .
You accused me of behaving like a self appointed member of the forum staff.
I have nothing but respect for the selfless and anonymous time and effort required of the actual mods on here...I think mantis summed it up very well.
I simply don't have the time nor the skill to perform this task, especially as their task has grown recently with the increasing number of poisonous and childish responses on this forum.
That is simply a great shame.
But I had a question for you nms75 - and this is neither an accusation nor an attempt at humour.
It seems to me your anxiety is based upon your fear that underground conspiracies are afoot on your own forum, and you state you cannot bring yourself to provide the enormous power of your support and appproval until the conspirators have fessed up to the world (oh and you) how precisely they are going to fulfill their fiduciary obligation to deliver satisfactory cufflinks.
May I ask how those of us short of sight and deep in conspiracy, will notice this support?
As to those who attempted to offer me support as usual I feel humbled.
Now I'll take my own advice and leave the floor to mac should he bother to risk the "den of snipers" - JOKE
As money has changed hands it would seem prudent to keep as much as possible on the thread....certainly anyone whom has paid should be 'kept in the loop' via PM at least....but thats just my opinion...
If Mac wishes to garner help via the PM system, that shouldn't be a problem either....certainly it shouldn't be viewed as though he is trying to hide something...and ke02eww has prior experience, which could prove invaluable to Mac...I'd certainly bow to his knowledge....
As for people being 'self-appointed' MODS....I'm not sure where this comes from..?..perhaps we all need to re-read a post from time to time before we jump to conclusions...?...
Please...if we can stay on topic and try and be constructive.... -{
I am truly sorry, but I must ask you to refund my money.
Reason: I have done a thorough search, and found that the cufflinks used in QoS made by ST Dupont are available, and they would also even cost me less(£138) than what I have paid for these(£198).
I very much preferred the QoS cufflinks over the ones from CR, but I simply assumed they weren't available, and the offer presented here was the first and best (I thought) I would find. 8-)
It has nothing to do with the quality of this product, but with my simply finding the cufflinks from QoS more to my liking than the cufflinks from CR.
You buying these from Elegant Pens by any chance? :007) I believe the 5172 cufflinks are still in production as I noticed they were still on S.T. Dupont's web site last time I looked a couple of months back. I have a pair myself and they are excellent. Not, therefore, as rare or expensive as the 'coffin' shaped 5244's but I agree they are nicer.
NMS
Yes, that's correct! Elegant Pens was the name of the website.
I have had several pairs of S.T. Dupont cufflinks from Elegant Pens and I can say their service is very good! Hope you enjoy wearing them in good health
NMS
"Hi,
I understand you asking for a refund, but I've already sent a 50% portion of your money to the cufflink maker to start production. If you want, I can refund the other £98 to you, to put towards the QOS cufflinks?
Thanks,
Mac."
8-)
?:) which production?
I thought, that we are in the prototype stage and "gathering-infos-phase"......
If you are asking me, it works like this:
1. Cufflink-guy: Give me your estimate and make me a prototype
2. After the prototype has been done and approved, start production
3. After receiving the product and I am happy with it, I'll pay
(at stage 2 there may be a 20-50% downpayment but the prototypes have not been approved yet, so, the production can't be running...)
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
If a member wants a full refund I fail to see why he/she should only be offered half it back!
NMS
even it does not make sense to me at all.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
As I read it he wanted 50% of the price of the finished cufflinks upfront then the other 50% upon completion before shipping the finished product out - which is fair enough. However, does the above post made by Tom indicate that he took all the £196 (or is it £198 now - we have several different figures in this threas?!) and is only prepared to offer half of it back?!?!?! I too am confused!
NMS
Sorry, but I couldn't help comment on this.
It seems like everyone that has ordered one should only have paid £98 and not £198 for the pre order. So the production cost is only £98 if that is the amount that was sent to the production company.
Then should be no problem in getting a full refund then? Right?
Deposit didn't happen(at least not in my case). Mac asked for the full sum, which I handed over without questions.
I never intended to fool Mac, I just believe the participants should be given the chance to walk out if they wanted to, in the same easy manner as they entered.
To prove that the money will be spent on what is an extremely similar(if not identical) purchase, the only difference being a matter of individual taste(not on me doubhting the quality and success of the project, which I never have), I will upload pictures of the QoS cufflinks which I intend to order immediately after I have received the money back, when I receive them in the mail!
A. I think Mac should be able to get the money back if the designs don't match what he submitted. Even if Mac didn't submit a complete design, if the designer took the job based on photos, then he should be able to match what he sees, or refund Mac his deposit. Was there any discussion with the cufflink-maker about potential refunds if the project doesn't pan out?
Not to mention, I think paying half the price of a completed job for only a preliminary design doesn't make much sense.
B. If the designer refuses to refund, I still say we should get a complete refund. Mac would still be free to sell the cufflinks on Ebay or wherever he wanted.
No.
Mac contacted me via PM, offering a 50% refund.
I responded by saying that I would see the project through to the end, but that I think all up paid in should be offered 100% refunds if they don't feel the end product is up to snuff (as I explained above), but he has not responded since.
shaped
the smiley was a tribute to ke02eww {[]
Just seems like a lot of confidence to put in somebody who is merely meeting supply with demand.
No offence to anyone who has paid in to this; but what was that old saying?
Regards,
Wilde
I believe everyone deserves to be treated with respect, and not be met with prejudice.
Brings to mind another saying: "what goes around, comes around!"
That sounds nice on paper, old boy.
Trust me, my red flags went up when Mac first sent me the request for payment. I even messaged fellow ABJ users to see if they had any dealings with Mac before, but none had. So I was really just going on blind faith. But having said that, I have only had good luck with projects on AJB, so since most of the people here were going along without any real reservations, I just followed along. Not too bright, I know -- but as I said, I've only had good experiences on AJB.
My take is....unless you paid in....stay out/away from posting in this thread....it's very easy to throw stones...I don't see anybody being constructive...I can totally understand how people must feel if they've paid the best part of £200 and are now looking down the barrel....
I can only suggest the people who have paid the money up-front contact each other and see what each of you feels...and how you wish to proceed....either to carry on with the deal or look for refunds....
As I said...this is ONLY MY SUGGESTION....it's really up to the people who have paid to decide to what action to take...I would please ask everyone else to back away from this thread...read it by all means....offer help where it may be needed...but please desist from flaming....
thank you.