But in regards to Dalton, Bond toys, you have another ally in me as well B-) -{
-{ to this.
I for my part am pretty relaxed about Dalton and his fans. My opinion stands and I can take all the Daltonism with a smile (one time, these people will see the light)
The fun ends, when it's getting personal from the Dalton camp (but this always follows a pattern....). {:)
Bondtoys...no problem from me that you don't like Dalton...it's YOUR choice...just as it's mine to like him...if you attack Dalton, I will defend him...just as you would defend Moore -{
Unfortunately passions can run high when discussing Bond...and it IS a shame when people go too far and insult either a fellow Bond fan or a Bond actor...shame on them !
I think most on here can take a bit of ribbing and act like adults...even when 'something' gets lost in translation... -{
You never bought Dalton in the action scenes, and yet you find Moore credible as Bond? No offense, friend, but that truly baffles me! I may be on an island by myself on this one, but I don't see how anyone can objectively conclude that Moore is believable as 007 in action and Dalton is not. I understand how some can prefer other actors to Dalton as Bond, and although I thought he made a fine Bond I have my criticisms as well. Perhaps that is not what you mean and maybe Moore's lack of credibility as Bond in action is not as important to you as the other aspects of his portrayal that you enjoy. But if one of your major criticisms of Timothy Dalton is that you don't buy him in the action scenes, why do you give Sir Roger a pass? Not trying to start anything - just curious to get your point of view.
"Anyways something about Dalton has always been off. Sure he benefits from being in more "serious" films and coming after the Moore era making him seem even more different. But as hard as he tries to be the serious Bond I have trouble buying into it. I always picture him prancing around wearing tights and performing a Shakespeare play or something. I don't know maybe it feels like he's over-acting at times? "
I have thought that as well, he almost prances across the screen at times. It does seem at time he never understood the difference between stage acting and film work. I read a quote from Connery ( I'm sure it was in someone's post ) where he said he thought Dalton underestimated the role because of the his theater background doing shakespeare. He never understood how big a role Bond was to play and I thought that was quite a good description. Also Thunderpussy , who is a Dalton fan, wrote in a post how he never bought Dalton in the action scenes. I always thought that as well. He had the look, but he just did not move very well in the action sequences in my opinion, even though he did alot of his own stunts. Watch the scene in the PCS with Sanchez at the air strip, Dalton truly prances across the field while he is running with the other DEA agents. I have just always thought there was a gravitas to the role he lacked. They was just something a little underwhelming about Dalton in my book. I really wanted to like Dalton in the role so much as well. Every time I watch the movie the 4th protocol with Brosnan I always wonder what it would have been like if he had not been screwed by the remington steele deal and taken over with TLD. I still enjoy LTK ( and to a lesser extent TLD, though I have warmed more to it through the years ) But in regards to Dalton, Bond toys, you have another ally in me as well B-) -{
Well, the obvious answer to that is that Moore isn't trying to be as convincing, in the same way that the underwater car works in a Moore film, but wouldn't be believable in a movie like TLD or CR.
Come to think of it, there just aren't many great fights I can think of in Dalton's movie, the one with Necros isn't really swinging fists stuff is it, more like the one with Kamal Khan on the plane in OP. I never got a sense of Dalton's body language either fighting or f***king.
BTW I always saw the time away from the screen as well known that it was due to legal reasons, that's not to say when it eventually came for the moneymen to sign they didn't say, damn it, let's get Brozzer in not Dalton. The former is officially confirmed, the latter isn't however. But unlike with Craig now, there was no eagerness from the public to see Dalton return.
Bondtoys is a child. Nothing more. He has no proof whatsoever to back up his claims. None. The lawsuit is common knowledge among Bond fans and people in the entertainment business. Doesn't matter what Bondtoys says, the facts are the facts. He would make an effective very specific type of politician though--just stick to the argument no matter what, facts be damned and eventually people who might not know any better might start to believe the bloviating ramblings being disseminated. I also have no idea who Rick Roberts is. This accusation speaks volumes as to Bondtoys and his type.
May I add, that if I would be a Bond producer with a not-liked actor who's last movie sucked financially, who helped me 2 years ago by stepping in as the number 2 of choice - with a 3- movie contract and I feel sick and tired of the direction where the movies go and how the main actor is accepted - what would I say?
Would I say all this, or hide behind the lawsuit officially and try to sit all this out?
I know, now some people will mention the agenda thing and I have no proof for all this.
Some people may say, that Mickey admitted the lack of a perspective prior to CR, but he's very different to Cubby
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Wow, Dalton was the number 2 choice? With each posting you reveal your complete ignorance of the facts. Dalton was actually approached before Brosnan but was committed to a film at the time (B Starr) as well as stage productions he was involved with. In addition, Dalton was approached about Bond multiple times before the mid 80's. The first time being for OHMSS (yes that's right smart guy). Your cluelessness is boundless. Keep posting though, this is getting more and more comical with each post. And you call yourself a Bond fan? Hilarious.
Yeah, I think bondrox is right there, Dalton had been the original choice. That's not to say however that there weren't murmerings at Dalton's shortcomings, and being unable to do humour is a biggie, esp when Bruce and Mel and Arnie were making it very much their thing in their films at the time. But we don't know. Certainly Arnie was very disparaging about LTK when he was promoting True Lies, okay only once in an aside as I recall.
Dalton was a personal friend of Cubby's, so he may have been reluctant to dump him. I'm not sure however that he had ultimate say when it came to getting funding for the movie GE. What they were never gonna say was, 'Hey, we're firing Dalton...'
Let's see, here's a direct quote from the link you provided regarding Dalton "He was originally the producers' first choice for The Living Daylights but turned down the role because he was busy with the film version of Brenda Starr,[4] while Collins and Neill failed the screen-test". In addition if you're going by who was approached or considered for Bond first chronologically then Dalton still wins because he was first considered in the late 60's for Bond. It is also documented that Dalton was considered during Moore's tenure for when Moore would eventually retire (Moore flirted with retiring more than once before his swan song in AVTAK). So you lose again, but keep trying Bondtoys.
I am going to end this argument right now IT"S ALL HARRY SALTZMAN"S FAULT ) ) To Blackleiter please don't misunderstand I NEVER thought Moore was convincing in the fight scenes, but he was more comic book and wasn't TRYING to be serious. Dalton was, and as Nap said, " I never bought his body movements."
Nobody wanted to be a Dalton fan more than me after AVTAK. Please, though, name 1 fighting scene of Daltons that even comes close to the reality of Connery in the train, Lazenby on the beach ( He throws the most realistic right cross in the water, maybe of the entire series + he broke a stuntman's arm ) or Craig in the stairwell ????
Just to strengthen my point: If PB would have been available, he would have gotten the role for TLD in the first place:
Quote: "producers cast Pierce Brosnan, who had been prevented from succeeding Roger Moore in 1986 because of his contract to star in the Remington Steele series"
Now now, Bondtoys, the above is true. But that was after Dalton had to bow out himself because of the film Brenda Star. Had Brozzer been such an attraction for Cubby, he could surely have arranged a deal whereby Brozzer could have done Bond then done another season of Remington Steele, when he would have been a much bigger star.
Of course, this is all what I've read, not heard it from the producers, or Brozzer or Dalton.
But what I'm saying is that, on what I've heard, Brozzer missed out on a role that he wasn't first choice for in the first place. Rightly or wrongly, mind you.
Erm, that said, if Dalton had always been the original choice, it makes it harder to take on board the Mooreisms in TLD, such as the flying carpet stuff and silly car chase, it would have fitted Brosnan more. Some say it was written for Moore to come back yet again, but that's surely not viable.
Funny, one of the links that was provided by Bondtoys was just a movie review by Victoria Alexander who claimed that "Brosnan confidently steps forward and takes what always belonged to him after Roger Moore abdicated (or was pushed)" in regards to his taking Bond over. Hmmm, so now maybe my hypothetical about Moore possibly being "pushed" out of the Bond role is absolute truth since it was printed by a person that worked for a paper or mag of some type. Obviously it was just speculation on her part and there is no real proof behind it but in Bondtoys world I should just start saying Moore was kicked to the curb due to AVTAK's more than 20% drop in U.S. box office from its predecessor Octopussy. Alternate universe logic is........different. No doubt about that.
Now now, Bondtoys, the above is true. But that was after Dalton had to bow out himself because of the film Brenda Star. Had Brozzer been such an attraction for Cubby, he could surely have arranged a deal whereby Brozzer could have done Bond then done another season of Remington Steele, when he would have been a much bigger star.
Sorry, Nap, not true imo.
Brozzer's contract for Remington Steele was pretty tight, so, they could not go with him originally.
Then came the screen-tests and the offer for Dalton, who rejected because of Brenda Star.
Then it seemed, that Remington Steele would come to an end and Brozzer was contracted.
Then Remington Steele was continued and Cubby could not get him out - they tried!
Then Dalton got the offer again and signed.
That's why in my books, Dalton was always #2 or 3
If Brosnan was available, he would have been in the tux!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
... What I don't understand is, how Dalton was busy with Brenda Star.
If I would have done a screentest for Bond, I'd not commit myself to anything else until I know the decision of the Bond people. Does not make sense to me.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Notice how it's now framed with IMO, "then it seemed" & "in my books". Yeah, that's because opinion is not fact. Never was, never will be. No matter how hard one tries to make it so. The available facts are that Dalton was informed about a 3rd film and specific plot points etc. The lawsuit between MGM/UA & Danjaq was protracted and Dalton ended up walking away. It was reported this way widely by the entertainment press at the time. If a studio had wanted rid of him there are much easier ways to go about it. Telling him about specific plot points and even proposed titles for the next film certainly wouldn't be the way to do it. In fact it would be just plain stupid on the part of the execs. Something along the lines of "we're working on it" or "we'll let you know when the time is right" would likely be the preferred method, not providing specific and detailed info about the next project. Brandon Routh (who was passed over for a new Superman) was on record as saying that he was interested in returning after Superman Returns but had been given the runaround by the suits in control of what was going on and he was just waiting. Now he's out. THAT is how a studio handles getting rid of an actor. They stonewall. They don't do the complete opposite.
Octopussy U.S. ticket sales 21.5 million
AVTK " " 14.1 million
TLD " " 13.1 million
LTK " " 8.7 million
Goldeneye " " 24.5million
Whatever the reason for the break ( I tend to believe both sides have valid points, Cubby was indeed in litigation for $$$$, but Daltons clear lack of fan appeal in the U.S. had at least something to do with the length of the break ) There is NO way you will ever convince me, when they started up with Goldeneye, that Cubby was EVER going to go back to Dalton in the bond role.
In fact "Saturday night" live made fun of Daltons announcement that he was leaving the role. They had a " whatever, nobody cares sort of joke " on the nightly news segment. As for which Bond the American public liked better in the role well the numbers are what the numbers are, it's Brozzer in a 2nd round knockout. NOT EVEN CLOSE Goldeneye did 3 times the ticket sales. :v :v :v
Not obvious at all! Just because Moore's Bond was more light-hearted and bordeline spoofish doesn't mean he wasn't supposed to look convincing in the action scenes. Let's not forget that Connery, Lazenby and Brosnan all had their less serious moments, but all of them managed to pull off the action scenes quite well. And I thought the issue is about more than just fighting scenes - I thought we were talking about "action" scenes. Bond's fight with Necros hanging from the plane was a terrific "action" scene, and when the camera was on Dalton (as opposed to his stunt double) he looked convincing. Same with the ride atop the runaway truck in the PTS of The Living Daylights and the waterskiing behind the plane scene in License to Kill. I am hard-pressed to find many "action" scenes in which Moore looks convincing. But of course, that's just me!:D
Well, the obvious answer to that is that Moore isn't trying to be as convincing, in the same way that the underwater car works in a Moore film, but wouldn't be believable in a movie like TLD or CR.
Come to think of it, there just aren't many great fights I can think of in Dalton's movie, the one with Necros isn't really swinging fists stuff is it, more like the one with Kamal Khan on the plane in OP. I never got a sense of Dalton's body language either fighting or f***king.
BTW I always saw the time away from the screen as well known that it was due to legal reasons, that's not to say when it eventually came for the moneymen to sign they didn't say, damn it, let's get Brozzer in not Dalton. The former is officially confirmed, the latter isn't however. But unlike with Craig now, there was no eagerness from the public to see Dalton return.
What I mean is, Moore's forte wasn't meant to be brutality and fist fights. Dalton was meant to be a tougher Bond. Complaining that Moore didn't do fighting much, well, neither did David Niven in his roles, but this sort of leading man is relying more on suavity to get through.
The fight near the end of TLD is very good. But, again, while I agree it is convincing, we never seem to see Dalton in a fist fight of the sort we see with Connery and Lazenby. Come to think of it, only those two did that kind of fighting, in reality you would break your hand of course. Dalton's fights involve vehicle props.
But we had Moore take out Kamal's thugs at Octopussy's palace, that's more of a punch up than Dalton ever did. Oh, okay, the fight in the Land Rover in the pts of TLD is good, though I never quite got his diving into the roof of it, looked a bit odd.
Moore's fight with Chang, both of them, looked good to me. He often tended to get nearly strangled or squeezed didn't he, Moore? Fighting Tee Hee, Jaws in the train, and the chain round his neck with Chang.
"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
I have plenty of proof...it was ALL over the papers
The british press is well-known about their qualities in terms of accuracy and honesty.. :v
Yes well...they have more competition now...back then, before the advent of the internet and 24 hour news programmes, they hadn't.
And it would have been a MUCH better story to diss Dalton than report the truth...which was a tv contract wrangle...and didn't that lead into the Sony courtcase about who owns the character James Bond...?...therefore killing any chance of another Bond film stone dead until it was resolved ? Even Cubby couldn't get round that one, bondtoys... :v
Bondtoys is a child. Nothing more. He has no proof whatsoever to back up his claims. None. The lawsuit is common knowledge among Bond fans and people in the entertainment business. Doesn't matter what Bondtoys says, the facts are the facts. He would make an effective very specific type of politician though--just stick to the argument no matter what, facts be damned and eventually people who might not know any better might start to believe the bloviating ramblings being disseminated. I also have no idea who Rick Roberts is. This accusation speaks volumes as to Bondtoys and his type.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated...bondrox will spend some time away to think about his actions...
Tetchy??? Okay - whatever that means! But do come along, Dear Napoleon! Who said anything about brutality or even fighting? I said Moore does not look convincing doing action scenes, fighting or otherwise. (Never would have believed Niven either, by the way!) Whether running, kicking, climbing or punching, when Roger was involved it seemed much MOORE laborious and staged than with the other actors. The scenes you cited don't really counter that perception are far as I'm concerned. It's not a question of the leading man using "suavity" to get through. If the scene involves action, then it's always better if the actor doing the action looks convincing (unless of course the scene is played purely for laughs, a la Austin Powers). Okay - I'm through being "tetchy". Carry on!
What I mean is, Moore's forte wasn't meant to be brutality and fist fights. Dalton was meant to be a tougher Bond. Complaining that Moore didn't do fighting much, well, neither did David Niven in his roles, but this sort of leading man is relying more on suavity to get through.
The fight near the end of TLD is very good. But, again, while I agree it is convincing, we never seem to see Dalton in a fist fight of the sort we see with Connery and Lazenby. Come to think of it, only those two did that kind of fighting, in reality you would break your hand of course. Dalton's fights involve vehicle props.
But we had Moore take out Kamal's thugs at Octopussy's palace, that's more of a punch up than Dalton ever did. Oh, okay, the fight in the Land Rover in the pts of TLD is good, though I never quite got his diving into the roof of it, looked a bit odd.
Moore's fight with Chang, both of them, looked good to me. He often tended to get nearly strangled or squeezed didn't he, Moore? Fighting Tee Hee, Jaws in the train, and the chain round his neck with Chang.
Ironically I think one of the BEST action scene's in the entire Bond series is the speed boat chase scene in Live and Let Die. Same with the jumping over the crocodiles. But then again stunt men and the boat were doing all the work in those.:)) )
Bondtoys is a child. Nothing more. He has no proof whatsoever to back up his claims. None. The lawsuit is common knowledge among Bond fans and people in the entertainment business. Doesn't matter what Bondtoys says, the facts are the facts. He would make an effective very specific type of politician though--just stick to the argument no matter what, facts be damned and eventually people who might not know any better might start to believe the bloviating ramblings being disseminated. I also have no idea who Rick Roberts is. This accusation speaks volumes as to Bondtoys and his type.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated...bondrox will spend some time away to think about his actions...
In defence of bondrox, the opening few sentences have a wonderful Bond villain vibe to them. Hard to read without calling to mind Joseph Wiseman's Doctor No. "East... West... mere points of the compass."
Comments
Bondtoys...no problem from me that you don't like Dalton...it's YOUR choice...just as it's mine to like him...if you attack Dalton, I will defend him...just as you would defend Moore -{
Unfortunately passions can run high when discussing Bond...and it IS a shame when people go too far and insult either a fellow Bond fan or a Bond actor...shame on them !
I think most on here can take a bit of ribbing and act like adults...even when 'something' gets lost in translation... -{
Sir Miles, that's the problem with killerphrases.*
I could use the same ones on the "quality" of your sources
The british press is well-known about their qualities in terms of accuracy and honesty.. :v
I have tried to do some research as everyone including you say something without providing sources.
If I provide sources, they are not reliable :v That's the usual game - boring!
*
and if I would not ignore Rick Roberts above, I could find a lot more......
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Come to think of it, there just aren't many great fights I can think of in Dalton's movie, the one with Necros isn't really swinging fists stuff is it, more like the one with Kamal Khan on the plane in OP. I never got a sense of Dalton's body language either fighting or f***king.
BTW I always saw the time away from the screen as well known that it was due to legal reasons, that's not to say when it eventually came for the moneymen to sign they didn't say, damn it, let's get Brozzer in not Dalton. The former is officially confirmed, the latter isn't however. But unlike with Craig now, there was no eagerness from the public to see Dalton return.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
May I add, that if I would be a Bond producer with a not-liked actor who's last movie sucked financially, who helped me 2 years ago by stepping in as the number 2 of choice - with a 3- movie contract and I feel sick and tired of the direction where the movies go and how the main actor is accepted - what would I say?
Would I say all this, or hide behind the lawsuit officially and try to sit all this out?
I know, now some people will mention the agenda thing and I have no proof for all this.
Some people may say, that Mickey admitted the lack of a perspective prior to CR, but he's very different to Cubby
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton was a personal friend of Cubby's, so he may have been reluctant to dump him. I'm not sure however that he had ultimate say when it came to getting funding for the movie GE. What they were never gonna say was, 'Hey, we're firing Dalton...'
Roger Moore 1927-2017
- The producers have been after PB since FYEO but he was not casted for TLD because he had the RS contract
- TD was offered the role for TLD after RM resigned, so he was # 2 or better #3 after RM and PB
- After he turned down the role, PB became available and got contracted
- After RS went into another half season, he was unavailable and TD got the role as #2 again and accepted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_Daylights
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Nobody wanted to be a Dalton fan more than me after AVTAK. Please, though, name 1 fighting scene of Daltons that even comes close to the reality of Connery in the train, Lazenby on the beach ( He throws the most realistic right cross in the water, maybe of the entire series + he broke a stuntman's arm ) or Craig in the stairwell ????
Just to strengthen my point: If PB would have been available, he would have gotten the role for TLD in the first place:
Quote: "producers cast Pierce Brosnan, who had been prevented from succeeding Roger Moore in 1986 because of his contract to star in the Remington Steele series"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldeneye
So, Dalton was # 2 for TLD or number 3 as for a long time, EON was hoping to have Sir Roger back
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Of course, this is all what I've read, not heard it from the producers, or Brozzer or Dalton.
But what I'm saying is that, on what I've heard, Brozzer missed out on a role that he wasn't first choice for in the first place. Rightly or wrongly, mind you.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Sorry, Nap, not true imo.
Brozzer's contract for Remington Steele was pretty tight, so, they could not go with him originally.
Then came the screen-tests and the offer for Dalton, who rejected because of Brenda Star.
Then it seemed, that Remington Steele would come to an end and Brozzer was contracted.
Then Remington Steele was continued and Cubby could not get him out - they tried!
Then Dalton got the offer again and signed.
That's why in my books, Dalton was always #2 or 3
If Brosnan was available, he would have been in the tux!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
If I would have done a screentest for Bond, I'd not commit myself to anything else until I know the decision of the Bond people. Does not make sense to me.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
AVTK " " 14.1 million
TLD " " 13.1 million
LTK " " 8.7 million
Goldeneye " " 24.5million
Whatever the reason for the break ( I tend to believe both sides have valid points, Cubby was indeed in litigation for $$$$, but Daltons clear lack of fan appeal in the U.S. had at least something to do with the length of the break ) There is NO way you will ever convince me, when they started up with Goldeneye, that Cubby was EVER going to go back to Dalton in the bond role.
In fact "Saturday night" live made fun of Daltons announcement that he was leaving the role. They had a " whatever, nobody cares sort of joke " on the nightly news segment. As for which Bond the American public liked better in the role well the numbers are what the numbers are, it's Brozzer in a 2nd round knockout. NOT EVEN CLOSE Goldeneye did 3 times the ticket sales. :v :v :v
What I mean is, Moore's forte wasn't meant to be brutality and fist fights. Dalton was meant to be a tougher Bond. Complaining that Moore didn't do fighting much, well, neither did David Niven in his roles, but this sort of leading man is relying more on suavity to get through.
The fight near the end of TLD is very good. But, again, while I agree it is convincing, we never seem to see Dalton in a fist fight of the sort we see with Connery and Lazenby. Come to think of it, only those two did that kind of fighting, in reality you would break your hand of course. Dalton's fights involve vehicle props.
But we had Moore take out Kamal's thugs at Octopussy's palace, that's more of a punch up than Dalton ever did. Oh, okay, the fight in the Land Rover in the pts of TLD is good, though I never quite got his diving into the roof of it, looked a bit odd.
Moore's fight with Chang, both of them, looked good to me. He often tended to get nearly strangled or squeezed didn't he, Moore? Fighting Tee Hee, Jaws in the train, and the chain round his neck with Chang.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
But your sources are not mentioned and therefore have NO quality at all
Yes well...they have more competition now...back then, before the advent of the internet and 24 hour news programmes, they hadn't.
And it would have been a MUCH better story to diss Dalton than report the truth...which was a tv contract wrangle...and didn't that lead into the Sony courtcase about who owns the character James Bond...?...therefore killing any chance of another Bond film stone dead until it was resolved ? Even Cubby couldn't get round that one, bondtoys... :v
I don't need 'sources'...it was ALL reported in the papers at the time...some of it straight from court
What sources have you provided ? As far as I can tell you have just made something up and posted it
Lets see you name your 100% certified 'sources' :v
Personal attacks will not be tolerated...bondrox will spend some time away to think about his actions...
Now...lets carry on...
In defence of bondrox, the opening few sentences have a wonderful Bond villain vibe to them. Hard to read without calling to mind Joseph Wiseman's Doctor No. "East... West... mere points of the compass."
Roger Moore 1927-2017
http://www.hmss.com/films/memory/