Bond's PPK question

walther p99 · November 2011

in TLD during the end fight, Whittaker remarks "you've had your eight, now ill have my eighty" i was curious because as far as i know the PPK can only hold 7 rounds and the PPKs holds 8 rounds. Can a PPK hold 8 rounds without a magazine extension?

pyrat · November 2011

You are correct regarding both the PPK and PPK/S. There is an adapter which lets you use a PPK/S magazine in a PPK which would give you 8 rounds. The adapter covers the portion of the PPK/S mag that extends from the base of the PPK grip. Probably an oversight druing the movie or maybe they just thought ti sounded better.

walther p99 · November 2011

SO the PPK's mag capacity is 6+1 in the chamber or 7+1 in the chamber?

pyrat · November 2011

My mistake, the .380 PPK mag capacity is 6 rounds, the .32 is 7, so Whittaker's remark was correct, the .32 PPK will hole 8 (7+1).

thesecretagent · November 2011

Nobody of any tactical experience racks a round into the chamber, then carries on a full mag. It puts too much pressure on the magazine spring. The "whatever number" + 1 is for amateurs on the range. As far as I am concerned Dalton's PPK was 7 rounds.

7289 · November 2011

thesecretagent wrote:

Nobody of any tactical experience racks a round into the chamber, then carries on a full mag. It puts too much pressure on the magazine spring. The "whatever number" + 1 is for amateurs on the range. As far as I am concerned Dalton's PPK was 7 rounds.

It's a movie!

pyrat · November 2011

thesecretagent wrote:

Nobody of any tactical experience racks a round into the chamber, then carries on a full mag. It puts too much pressure on the magazine spring. The "whatever number" + 1 is for amateurs on the range. As far as I am concerned Dalton's PPK was 7 rounds.

Just curious, what "tactical experience" do you have?

thesecretagent · November 2011

Two tours of Northern Ireland, peacekeeping in Bosnia, Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Liberation and Peacekeeping of Kuwait, security of Kuwait City, Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan and then Iraq.

Outside the military - Chechnya, Iraq, Columbia, Somalia, Angola, Indonesia in private security/close protection roles.

I carried the 80's model 7.65mm PPK in Northern Ireland off duty and on certain driving duties on my second tour. I also carried it on at least four security contracts. In my opinion it's one of the all time greats - I'd certainly rather have one than many of the sub-compact 9mm pistols that are favoured today. And as a personal bodyguard's weapon it's as good as it gets.

Bodie · November 2011

So thesecretagent you come on to ajb 007 to bring a bit of excitment into your life.

pyrat · November 2011

Do you carry your spare magazines one short?

SiCo · November 2011

I hope we can continue to keep this polite and on topic.

thesecretagent · November 2011

Bodie wrote:

So thesecretagent you come on to ajb 007 to bring a bit of excitment into your life.

The question was what tactical experience I had. I merely answered it. I go on this site to talk about Bond related topics.

thesecretagent · November 2011

pyrat wrote:

Do you carry your spare magazines one short?

I don't "carry" any more. Only sport shooting and loading 10 into a Ruger 10/22 isn't really a problem because bunnies don't shoot back.

As I'm sure you'll know standard SOP is to load 29 into a 30 magazine/clip. It's also SOP to empty them daily and reload to take pressure off the spring. Exceptions are training and range use.

Le Samourai · November 2011

thesecretagent wrote:

Two tours of Northern Ireland, peacekeeping in Bosnia, Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Liberation and Peacekeeping of Kuwait, security of Kuwait City, Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan and then Iraq.

Outside the military - Chechnya, Iraq, Columbia, Somalia, Angola, Indonesia in private security/close protection roles.

I carried the 80's model 7.65mm PPK in Northern Ireland off duty and on certain driving duties on my second tour. I also carried it on at least four security contracts. In my opinion it's one of the all time greats - I'd certainly rather have one than many of the sub-compact 9mm pistols that are favoured today. And as a personal bodyguard's weapon it's as good as it gets.

I'm rather curious as to whether or not you've had any experience with S&W's PPKs. The earlier models were a bit trouble-prone, but apparently those problems have been fixed. I've thought about picking one up at some point, as finding older PPKs in 7.65mm is rather difficult.

thesecretagent · November 2011

Le Samourai wrote:

thesecretagent wrote:

Two tours of Northern Ireland, peacekeeping in Bosnia, Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Liberation and Peacekeeping of Kuwait, security of Kuwait City, Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan and then Iraq.

Outside the military - Chechnya, Iraq, Columbia, Somalia, Angola, Indonesia in private security/close protection roles.

I carried the 80's model 7.65mm PPK in Northern Ireland off duty and on certain driving duties on my second tour. I also carried it on at least four security contracts. In my opinion it's one of the all time greats - I'd certainly rather have one than many of the sub-compact 9mm pistols that are favoured today. And as a personal bodyguard's weapon it's as good as it gets.

I'm rather curious as to whether or not you've had any experience with S&W's PPKs. The earlier models were a bit trouble-prone, but apparently those problems have been fixed. I've thought about picking one up at some point, as finding older PPKs in 7.65mm is rather difficult.

No I haven't, but if it's anything to go by, Smith & Wesson P99's are not as good as the European Walthers IMO. Strange really because the S&W revolvers I've used have been built perfectly (far better than Colt for instance). The PPK's design is so simple, it's hard to see where they could go wrong. There's no floating barrel or lugs, no specialist materials to fabricate incorrectly, no locking pins... That's part of why they're still so good.

Your diet and fitness tips are still going well BTW. My knees are shot so it's not as simple as hitting the road.

Le Samourai · November 2011

thesecretagent wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:

thesecretagent wrote:

Two tours of Northern Ireland, peacekeeping in Bosnia, Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Liberation and Peacekeeping of Kuwait, security of Kuwait City, Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan and then Iraq.

Outside the military - Chechnya, Iraq, Columbia, Somalia, Angola, Indonesia in private security/close protection roles.

I carried the 80's model 7.65mm PPK in Northern Ireland off duty and on certain driving duties on my second tour. I also carried it on at least four security contracts. In my opinion it's one of the all time greats - I'd certainly rather have one than many of the sub-compact 9mm pistols that are favoured today. And as a personal bodyguard's weapon it's as good as it gets.

I'm rather curious as to whether or not you've had any experience with S&W's PPKs. The earlier models were a bit trouble-prone, but apparently those problems have been fixed. I've thought about picking one up at some point, as finding older PPKs in 7.65mm is rather difficult.

No I haven't, but if it's anything to go by, Smith & Wesson P99's are not as good as the European Walthers IMO. Strange really because the S&W revolvers I've used have been built perfectly (far better than Colt for instance). The PPK's design is so simple, it's hard to see where they could go wrong. There's no floating barrel or lugs, no specialist materials to fabricate incorrectly, no locking pins... That's part of why they're still so good.

Your diet and fitness tips are still going well BTW. My knees are shot so it's not as simple as hitting the road.

I would always choose a European P99 over the S&W. And I full agree re: S&W revolvers. A friend of mine has an old Model 10 .38 that's about 50 years old, and it still shoots like a dream.

Hopefully, any issues with the S&W PPKs are fixed now. There are actually some subtle design changes that I like, such as a slight beavertail on the grip. I still keep my eyes open for a good, German-made PPK in 7.65mm, but they tend to be quite pricey when they show up on the used market. Maybe I'll just get a PP instead. Because they are less desirable, they are a bit more plentiful and sell for quite a bit less.

And I'm glad you are enjoying my fitness and diet tips. I've fallen behind on posting on my blog, which I hope to rectify over the weekend.

pyrat · November 2011

thesecretagent wrote:

I don't "carry" any more. Only sport shooting and loading 10 into a Ruger 10/22 isn't really a problem because bunnies don't shoot back.

Be careful, bunnies can be dangerous...

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thesecretagent wrote:

As I'm sure you'll know standard SOP is to load 29 into a 30 magazine/clip. It's also SOP to empty them daily and reload to take pressure off the spring. Exceptions are training and range use.

I've heard this suggested but never seen it in writing, officially that is. Properly maintained magazines shouldn't have a problem when used at their design capacity, however I'd agree with you if you had some tired magazines or if you only have just a couple and keep them loaded all the time.

In Bond's case, I can only recall ever seeing him reload once, during the holographic training exercise in DAD, which would lead me to believe he does not carry more than one spare (if that) in which case, considering the limited magazine capacity of the PPK and that his situation usually dictates resupply is not readily available I'd find it difficult to think he'd be willing to give up even one extra round.

BTW, I just got a 10/22 this summer. Great rifle with almost custom options as the AR. I'm planning on swapping out the trigger, barrel and stock one of these days to improve it's target capability and make it fit me a little better.

Le Samourai, I have a S&W PPK in .380ACP and had the opportunity to compare it to a pre-WWII PPK in 7.56. The Pre-war PPK (value determined to be right at $2500) had an exceptionally smoother action. Generally older weapons received more hand tuning at the factory than more recent ones. This reflects the rising costs of production and to some extent can be compensated for by paying for an action job after purchase. It is generally considered that all the European manufactured guns are of superior finish to the American licensed version, including Beretta, Sig and Walter and is why they bring more on the used market

Le Samourai · November 2011

pyrat wrote:

thesecretagent wrote:

I don't "carry" any more. Only sport shooting and loading 10 into a Ruger 10/22 isn't really a problem because bunnies don't shoot back.

Be careful, bunnies can be dangerous...

thesecretagent wrote:

As I'm sure you'll know standard SOP is to load 29 into a 30 magazine/clip. It's also SOP to empty them daily and reload to take pressure off the spring. Exceptions are training and range use.

I've heard this suggested but never seen it in writing, officially that is. Properly maintained magazines shouldn't have a problem when used at their design capacity, however I'd agree with you if you had some tired magazines or if you only have just a couple and keep them loaded all the time.

In Bond's case, I can only recall ever seeing him reload once, during the holographic training exercise in DAD, which would lead me to believe he does not carry more than one spare (if that) in which case, considering the limited magazine capacity of the PPK and that his situation usually dictates resupply is not readily available I'd find it difficult to think he'd be willing to give up even one extra round.

BTW, I just got a 10/22 this summer. Great rifle with almost custom options as the AR. I'm planning on swapping out the trigger, barrel and stock one of these days to improve it's target capability and make it fit me a little better.

Le Samourai, I have a S&W PPK in .380ACP and had the opportunity to compare it to a pre-WWII PPK in 7.56. The Pre-war PPK (value determined to be right at $2500) had an exceptionally smoother action. Generally older weapons received more hand tuning at the factory than more recent ones. This reflects the rising costs of production and to some extent can be compensated for by paying for an action job after purchase. It is generally considered that all the European manufactured guns are of superior finish to the American licensed version, including Beretta, Sig and Walter and is why they bring more on the used market

Sadly, Pyrat, I believe you are absolutely correct re: European manufactured guns vs. the American licensed versions. I've handled both German and US made SIGs, and the difference is quite noticeable.

tohmss007 · November 2011

Not to question anyones experience, but different strokes for different agencies. I was an NYPD Officer and Firearms Instructor and we trained to carry our Glock 19's with 15 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. In uniform we also carried two additional mags with 15-rounds in each. Basically with such a configuration we are carrying a fully loaded magazine and an additional round in the chamber (15 plus 1). The company Glock also reccomended this configuration at their Armorer School, and they mentioned it was not a bad idea to rotate your magazines every month or so. On an aside note, nothing drives me more crazy in Holloywood than racking a round into the chamber with a semi-automatic pistol before going into "Action", this means one is carrying an unloaded firearm, which makes absolutely no sense to me when your weapon is your tool to preserve ones life, or the life of another.

pyrat · November 2011

tohmss007 wrote:

On an aside note, nothing drives me more crazy in Holloywood than racking a round into the chamber with a semi-automatic pistol before going into "Action", this means one is carrying an unloaded firearm

You and me both.

)

thesecretagent · November 2011

tohmss007 wrote:

Not to question anyones experience, but different strokes for different agencies. I was an NYPD Officer and Firearms Instructor and we trained to carry our Glock 19's with 15 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. In uniform we also carried two additional mags with 15-rounds in each. Basically with such a configuration we are carrying a fully loaded magazine and an additional round in the chamber (15 plus 1). The company Glock also reccomended this configuration at their Armorer School, and they mentioned it was not a bad idea to rotate your magazines every month or so. On an aside note, nothing drives me more crazy in Holloywood than racking a round into the chamber with a semi-automatic pistol before going into "Action", this means one is carrying an unloaded firearm, which makes absolutely no sense to me when your weapon is your tool to preserve ones life, or the life of another.

Some countries don't allow their law enforcement agencies to carry on a loaded chamber. So you have to rack back the slide before firing. I worked close protection in France and this was alien to me - an Israeli draw the guys called it.

Near to you, this is a box of tricks I used a few years ago on Union County SWAT range, NJ.

On the second table were thirty or so Glock 17 and 19's destined for the United Nations security team we were training. Excuse my stupid face - I'd wanted a pop at a Ruger mini 14 since I first saw the A-Team!!

)

tohmss007 · November 2011

Mini 14's are always fun.

Did not know that about some countries and loaded chambers, still makes no sense to me. I was trained one had little time to react in a gunfight...silly me. NYPD policies of DPF (Deadly Physical Force) pretty stringent, I'm glad some politicians have not got a hold of this info as I'm sure they would love to impliment them.

thesecretagent · November 2011

tohmss007 wrote:

Mini 14's are always fun.

Did not know that about some countries and loaded chambers, still makes no sense to me. I was trained one had little time to react in a gunfight...silly me. NYPD policies of DPF (Deadly Physical Force) pretty stringent, I'm glad some politicians have not got a hold of this info as I'm sure they would love to impliment them.

It makes little sense - and is hard to police or monitor I imagine. In close protection most weapon drills are done one handed, as your other hand is either opening/closing doors, catching hold of the VIP's clothing to control them, guide them or even pull them to the floor. The last thing you want to be doing is working the slide as the VIP wonders into your arc of fire. That's why many favour .38 or .357 short barelled or snub-nosed revolvers. No controls or anything to worry about until the cylinder's empty...

tohmss007 · November 2011

Just curious- are you allowed to carry a revolver fully loaded or must the hammer be down on an empty chamber within the cylinder?

Le Samourai · November 2011

tohmss007 wrote:

Just curious- are you allowed to carry a revolver fully loaded or must the hammer be down on an empty chamber within the cylinder?

With modern, double-action revolvers with transfer-bar safeties you can carry fully loaded. The "hammer down on an empty chamber" thing still applies to most single-action revolvers (except post-1973 Rugers) and perhaps very old double-action revolvers.

tohmss007 · December 2011

Thanks for that, I have a decent skillset with modern firearms, but I was asking Thesecretagent if in his tours of close protection if he was authorized to carry a revolver with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. If it's not allowed for a semi-auto then why allow it for a revolver?

Le Samourai · December 2011

tohmss007 wrote:

Thanks for that, I have a decent skillset with modern firearms, but I was asking Thesecretagent if in his tours of close protection if he was authorized to carry a revolver with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. If it's not allowed for a semi-auto then why allow it for a revolver?

Sorry for jumping in prematurely. Looking back, I can now see that your query was directed at Thesecretagent.

thesecretagent · December 2011

tohmss007 wrote:

Just curious- are you allowed to carry a revolver fully loaded or must the hammer be down on an empty chamber within the cylinder?

Yeah fully loaded on six. This is where it all gets silly, a Colt .45 or a Browning HP35 with a round chambered but hammer down is OK because the hammer still has to be cocked. Double action weapons like say a CZ75 cannot be carried like this, or a Glock which is externally hammerless and therefore always in position 1. Also in France we were not allowed any military calibres. So no 9mm for example. .38, but no .357 because they use that too and no 7.65...

Le Samourai · December 2011

thesecretagent wrote:

tohmss007 wrote:

Just curious- are you allowed to carry a revolver fully loaded or must the hammer be down on an empty chamber within the cylinder?

Yeah fully loaded on six. This is where it all gets silly, a Colt .45 or a Browning HP35 with a round chambered but hammer down is OK because the hammer still has to be cocked. Double action weapons like say a CZ75 cannot be carried like this, or a Glock which is externally hammerless and therefore always in position 1. Also in France we were not allowed any military calibres. So no 9mm for example. .38, but no .357 because they use that too and no 7.65...

In the US, it is pretty much standard practice to carry single-action autos like 1911s and HP35s in Condition One (aka cocked-and-locked); i.e. chambered round, hammer back, safety on. Condition Two — chambered round, hammer down — is generally frowned on over here for use with single-action autos due to fears of accidental discharge when manually lowering the hammer.

SpectreBlofeld · December 2011

If I recall correctly, regulations regarding the practice of leaving the chamber under the hammer empty in a revolver was due to the risk of accidental discharge by dropping the firearm, which with single-action revolvers was a possibility. Modern single-action revolvers usually have an internal safety (like a hammer block) which keep the hammer from being able to strike the cartridge unless the trigger is actually pulled.

pyrat · December 2011

This was widely practice with the single action guns of the mid to late 1800s like the Peacemaker and the cap and ball revolvers that preceded them, even though there is a halfcock position which kept the hammer form striking the primer under most conditions.

Bond's PPK question

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