Moonraker Seiko - which one is the screen accurate?
Higgins
GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
I know, that some people here and on Jamesbondlifestyle are following this, so, I thought to give you guys a summary and an update.
Summary: In my >20 yrs of collecting James Bond Seikos (back in the time when ebay did not even exist), I came across with only M354-5010 watches in perfect mint condition. That's why I have been of the honest opinion, that this model is the only one, which is screen accurate (minus the bracelet which has been replaced by a different one)
Over the years, I realized, that there was also an M354-5019 model, with an identical shape but mostly in gold-plated and I have mostly seen this model being sold in the US.
So my first guess was, that the 5019 was reserved to the gold-coloured version - which turned out to be incorrect after some time - after I have found 2 totally mint M354-5019 (not plated) in perfect mint condition.
At the same time, Dell Deaton came up with his research results and claiming that the 5019 was THE ONLY accurate watch and he keeps on telling this on every possible occasion - mostly on his blog, which lives on self-citing and self-praising his own "discoveries".
He also accused me to mislead people with my 5010 claims for commercial reasons - hiding the fact, that I have said several times (in the meantime), that I honestly don't know, which model finally has been used in the movie because both watch models are identlical.
Next guess was, that the "9" had to do something with different markets as I have mostly seem 5019 models in the US and at the same time, the 5010 model would be more popular in Europe.
That theory was busted yesterday by a fellow member at "pocketcalculatorshow.com", where Deaton and I are members. Unfortunately you have to be registered to look into the threads.
This member "Old Tom" has a broad knowledge and documentation about old Seikos and his information I take as gospel.
He told us yesterday, that the "market" theory was an urban myth and he gave a very good explanation, why the identical watch has 2 different case codes by being the same model:
Old Tom: "Aha- the dreaded Bond watch saga revisited. The FX003 (retail code) M354-5010-61A and the FX005 M354-5019-61A are identical in all but back plate (both have the same m354-5010-9992 front plate under the crystal). Both were equally available in the UK. There are quite a lot of other examples of "identical" models having been available pre-1980, again only differing in the back plate.
So why? I suspect the answer lies in the serial number whch is always 6 digits on the digitals. First two used for the year/date which leaves a maximum of 10,000 units per month. So if they expect to sell more than this per month (Worldwide!) you need a way of producing an "identical" watch without corrupting the serial number system which is what the -5010/5019, -5028/5029 and -5038/5029 numbering would neatly sidestep."
link: http://pocketcalculatorshow.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/73510109901/m/86720903151?r=84920783151#84920783151
(like said, you have to be registered to read there)
Makes sense to me.
Thanks for reading.
Summary: In my >20 yrs of collecting James Bond Seikos (back in the time when ebay did not even exist), I came across with only M354-5010 watches in perfect mint condition. That's why I have been of the honest opinion, that this model is the only one, which is screen accurate (minus the bracelet which has been replaced by a different one)
Over the years, I realized, that there was also an M354-5019 model, with an identical shape but mostly in gold-plated and I have mostly seen this model being sold in the US.
So my first guess was, that the 5019 was reserved to the gold-coloured version - which turned out to be incorrect after some time - after I have found 2 totally mint M354-5019 (not plated) in perfect mint condition.
At the same time, Dell Deaton came up with his research results and claiming that the 5019 was THE ONLY accurate watch and he keeps on telling this on every possible occasion - mostly on his blog, which lives on self-citing and self-praising his own "discoveries".
He also accused me to mislead people with my 5010 claims for commercial reasons - hiding the fact, that I have said several times (in the meantime), that I honestly don't know, which model finally has been used in the movie because both watch models are identlical.
Next guess was, that the "9" had to do something with different markets as I have mostly seem 5019 models in the US and at the same time, the 5010 model would be more popular in Europe.
That theory was busted yesterday by a fellow member at "pocketcalculatorshow.com", where Deaton and I are members. Unfortunately you have to be registered to look into the threads.
This member "Old Tom" has a broad knowledge and documentation about old Seikos and his information I take as gospel.
He told us yesterday, that the "market" theory was an urban myth and he gave a very good explanation, why the identical watch has 2 different case codes by being the same model:
Old Tom: "Aha- the dreaded Bond watch saga revisited. The FX003 (retail code) M354-5010-61A and the FX005 M354-5019-61A are identical in all but back plate (both have the same m354-5010-9992 front plate under the crystal). Both were equally available in the UK. There are quite a lot of other examples of "identical" models having been available pre-1980, again only differing in the back plate.
So why? I suspect the answer lies in the serial number whch is always 6 digits on the digitals. First two used for the year/date which leaves a maximum of 10,000 units per month. So if they expect to sell more than this per month (Worldwide!) you need a way of producing an "identical" watch without corrupting the serial number system which is what the -5010/5019, -5028/5029 and -5038/5029 numbering would neatly sidestep."
link: http://pocketcalculatorshow.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/73510109901/m/86720903151?r=84920783151#84920783151
(like said, you have to be registered to read there)
Makes sense to me.
Thanks for reading.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
The fact that a long held belief by your opponent went "poof" does not surprise me. It amuses me no end that your opponent often claims to be in search of real evidence as a " researcher" but often ignores it when it does not support his view of things. But it's not the end, you'll be the brunt of many emotional diatribes for a while. I suppose I will be too for weighing in here. But so what! Sticks and stones and all that.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Just to point out, that "Old Tom" gives an explanation, why there are 2 identical models with different case codes.
I don't say, that that's the 100% confirmation but it sounds plausible until someone else comes up with a better explanation.
As for Deaton's accusations:
I know what I am and who I am. I have nothing to hide, if I am proven to be wrong, I admit it - but everybody gets the best possible information from me - regardless if it affects my sales.
I am in the possession of the document, which Mr. Deaton and Mark Mills worked out about the "Definitive list of James Bond Seikos". I can't post it here in public for © reasons but it is nowhere written there, that the 5019 is the only watch in Moonraker.
Deaton knows it, I know it, but he's not talking about that little detail.
And of course, I have informed him about Old Tom's thoughts via email.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
My opinion: The Bond-style M354 (black and blue face on stainless steel) is the leading model of the M354 series and sold much more than the other M354 watches with gold case or full black face or grey face or different case style! So because all the M354 watches have the small numbers m354-5010-9992 on the front crystal, I'm sure this front was made for the main and leading model of the series, the M354-5010!
Best regards, Thomas
that makes us two then
If you really followed the discussion, you should know, that my claim is not anymore, that the 5010 is the only right watch. There are obviously 5019 watches in st/steel out there which look exactly the same.
However I can agree, that the 5010 was the first watch of that design and was and still is the main/leading model of the series
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Sure! Because of that I have both of them, the 5010 and the 5019.
But I'm sure, that this watch was designed and made as number 5010 becaus of the number at the front. So if somebody asks me, what's the number of the Bond watch, I would say 5010.
You are right that a lot of 5019 watches are golden coloured. I often thought that Seiko produced too little of the 5010 case backs, so that they used a lot of the 5019 case backs for the Bond style 5010 watch!
But the "Old Tom" story sounds very good! And finally it says nothing more than that the 5019 case backs are used for the 5010 model because there are too little 5010 case backs made (because of the lack of more digits).
Best regards, Thomas
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Thomas
Edit: Don't like. Now more than ever. Bye!