I'm glad there wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. Britain lost hi-powered (centre fire) semi auto rifles and shotguns of more than three cartridges after the Hungerford massacre in the late eighties. Although you can now own multi shot shotguns on a firearm certificate for target/competition use. After Dunblane in the later ninties there was a witch hunt and a number of people lobbied successfully for a ban on handguns. Can't blame them, I think sixteen under six year olds were killed, and a s a father I can understand the thought process behind this. But the guy has unstable and two police officers deemed him unfit to own guns but were overruled by the chief of police ( who was a fellow Freemason!). The recent Cumbria incident has yet to lead to a change in law, but has identified a signicant failing in the Cumbrian police. These were three incidents in 25 years. Britain has two or more firearms incidents a day, all with unlicensed weapons. It would appear that more has to be done with illegal weapons and leave licensed individuals alone for a while. Each incident can't continually lead to some sort of ban for the majority - it has to look at the laws and police it better.
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
I'm glad there wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. Britain lost hi-powered (centre fire) semi auto rifles and shotguns of more than three cartridges after the Hungerford massacre in the late eighties. Although you can now own multi shot shotguns on a firearm certificate for target/competition use. After Dunblane in the later ninties there was a witch hunt and a number of people lobbied successfully for a ban on handguns. Can't blame them, I think sixteen under six year olds were killed, and a s a father I can understand the thought process behind this. But the guy has unstable and two police officers deemed him unfit to own guns but were overruled by the chief of police ( who was a fellow Freemason!). The recent Cumbria incident has yet to lead to a change in law, but has identified a signicant failing in the Cumbrian police. These were three incidents in 25 years. Britain has two or more firearms incidents a day, all with unlicensed weapons. It would appear that more has to be done with illegal weapons and leave licensed individuals alone for a while. Each incident can't continually lead to some sort of ban for the majority - it has to look at the laws and police it better.
If we ever meet in person, there's a pint waiting for you.
I couldn't agree with your statement more if I'd written it myself, top marks.
Laws on guns are a must. The US is the proof that the opposite doesn't work.
I fully appreciate and support the need for straight forward laws concerning firearms.
However, banning law abiding legal owners of firearms used for sport or land management does NOTHING to curb the use of illegal firearm.
How would you feel if the police came round and said "a kid joyriding killed a guy by running him over in a stolen car, so hand over your car keys cos they're all banned now"?
I personally as a supporter and holder or firearms would welcome WITH OPEN ARMS a set of proper common sense rules, including a mental evaluation at every renewal.
The bottom line is the police haven't the money to pay for the staff to properly manage the situation, plus they're concentrating their efforts in the wrong direction.
So yes, I believe in gun laws, but wish they were properly enforced.
This thread seems to lead to discussions on weighty issues such as prison reform and gun laws. I guess it`s natural. On the issue of gun laws I feel that both the UK and the US have gone to extremes. In Britain they bann them and in America they make gun ownership into a human right on par with freedom of speech. I think both are overreactions.
it's important to remember that the biggest mass murderers in history were governments, not individuals. I, and many Americans, and more than a few Aussies, Canadians, and Brits I have served with don't trust governments too much either.
Our citizens have used the 2nd amendment a number of times to make sure that government stays within it's bounds. Look up the Battle of Athens, Tennessee. I have twice had to use a gun to repel would be muggers. I didn't have to pull the trigger, most gun fights end when someone pulls a gun.
Like I said, I don't really care for capital punishment, however, I have no qualms about throwing some dirt bag in prison and leaving him. Not everyone can be reformed.
I still maintain that if the first 100 Jews had taken a Stromtrooper with them the Holocaust would not have happened. Bullies don't like people fighting back. The ones who fought are the ones who lived.
"I don't know if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or imbeciles who mean it."-Mark Twain
'Just because nobody complains doesn't mean all parachutes are perfect.'- Benny Hill (1924-1992)
I'm glad there wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. Britain lost hi-powered (centre fire) semi auto rifles and shotguns of more than three cartridges after the Hungerford massacre in the late eighties. Although you can now own multi shot shotguns on a firearm certificate for target/competition use. After Dunblane in the later ninties there was a witch hunt and a number of people lobbied successfully for a ban on handguns. Can't blame them, I think sixteen under six year olds were killed, and a s a father I can understand the thought process behind this. But the guy has unstable and two police officers deemed him unfit to own guns but were overruled by the chief of police ( who was a fellow Freemason!). The recent Cumbria incident has yet to lead to a change in law, but has identified a signicant failing in the Cumbrian police. These were three incidents in 25 years. Britain has two or more firearms incidents a day, all with unlicensed weapons. It would appear that more has to be done with illegal weapons and leave licensed individuals alone for a while. Each incident can't continually lead to some sort of ban for the majority - it has to look at the laws and police it better.
If we ever meet in person, there's a pint waiting for you.
I couldn't agree with your statement more if I'd written it myself, top marks.
-{
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
it's important to remember that the biggest mass murderers in history were governments, not individuals. I, and many Americans, and more than a few Aussies, Canadians, and Brits I have served with don't trust governments too much either.
Our citizens have used the 2nd amendment a number of times to make sure that government stays within it's bounds. Look up the Battle of Athens, Tennessee. I have twice had to use a gun to repel would be muggers. I didn't have to pull the trigger, most gun fights end when someone pulls a gun.
Like I said, I don't really care for capital punishment, however, I have no qualms about throwing some dirt bag in prison and leaving him. Not everyone can be reformed.
I still maintain that if the first 100 Jews had taken a Stromtrooper with them the Holocaust would not have happened. Bullies don't like people fighting back. The ones who fought are the ones who lived.
If the jews had fought back against the stormtroopers Hilter would have used it as an excuse to strike harder and sooner againt them than he did. There were jews who fought back, such as the ghetto in Warshaw and when they tried to blow up the owens in Auschwitz. The death rate was close to 100%. The ones who fought usually died, and the nazis allways hit back and killed many more civilians than the number of Germans killed.
While it is adviseable not to trust governments completely, I doubt owning guns is the best way to resist the more questionable sides of democratic governments. Make sure the human rights and rules of democracy are not undermined, get information from the media and use the newspapers and other media known for professionalism and critical thinking, be politically active an vote smartly. That`s how you make sure your fridoms aren`t taken from you in a democracy. "Naive Norwegian", you might think. Perhaps, but is it any more rational and less naive to think you are fighting a sneaky governemnt better by owning a gun or five?
Like most features in British news, the trial seems to have stopped. Just casually had the news on last night, but didn't see any update. I find this with coverage it's all or nothing. A few floods and unseasonably cold weather and all else pales into insignificance as all we see are reporters giving their piece standing in floodwater! Will look at sky news later.
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
Even in Norway the media coverage of the court case has quieted down lately. The Norwegian version of BBC One (If I got things right) is covering the trial all day long, five days a week. But the court case is not allways the lead story in the regular news programs and it is no longer the obligatory topic of debate programs. I think this is not only natural, but healthy. I do except media interest to increase when the the young survivors of Utoya start giving their testemones.
In general media fatigue is a problem. When war breakes out, an eartquake strikes or refugee camps are full of children with swollen bellies the media show up in hordes and flood the airwaves with what they see. But this only lasts a week or two. I think the media should cover more issues at a time and cover them over longer periods of time. I like media sourses who belive their audience are inteligent people. I just listened to BBC World Service and I think it` great!
Today was probably the worst day so far in court. The topic of the day was the killing of 13 young people in the island cantine. Coroners reports, demonstrations on a life-sized doll of entry and exit wounds, pictures of the victims while they were alive and a short text on who they were as a person. The doll and the presentation of the victims are unusual, but was included in consideration to the families. The audiense cried. So did the judge and the leading defence atorney. The state prosecutor could barely hold back the tears. Still the worst is yet to come: the testemonies of most of the young survivors, some badly injured. And the witnes box is just ten
feet from Breivik.
I don't think the 9/11 attacks are a good paralell to what happened in Norway last summer, the Oklahoma attacks were much closer to our 22/7. The US situation after 9/11 is very difficult and i hesitate to critizise too much. But still I think that we want to avoid this situation in Norway. It is important to us that the trial can't be critizised for lack of fairness or questionable legality of the process.
Today a member of the audience finally snapped. He got up from his seat, shouted "Go to hell!" and threw his shoe at Breivik. The shoe missed and hit a third party. Some of the audience applauded. Very understandable reaction, but also very regrettable.
The shoe-thrower was a english-speaking brother of one of Breivik's victims. Some of the audience experienced the incident as an emotional release after all the tension.
The last days have been filled with testemonies of survivors from Utoya, many of them wounded. I feel a mixture of sadness and pride. One boy threw a stone at Breivik, desperat to knock him out. I think he hit Breivik, but failed to knock him out. A girl told of how she ran from wounded to wounded, giving them primitive first aid while Breivik was not far away.
Another girl was shot in the leg when she ran. When she realized she was hit she took out the bullet with her fingers. She got to the shore and started swimming in the cold water. She had an astama attack, but manged to stay afloat. Breivik had calculated that the chilly water would function as a "weapon of mass destruction", because they would drown due to being paralyzed from fear and cold. Only one kid drowned. This brave girl, shot in the leg, was saved after a hour in the water. Her message to the terrorist: -We won, you lost. Norwegian youth kan swim!
When civilians with small boats came to rescue the swimmers, they were often told: - I can wait. Take the others first.
Curiouser and curiouser. A man walks into a lawyer's office near the court building. He speaks Swedish and talks about being the victim of a conspiracy involving social services and hands over some papers. Then he walks towards the court building while dousing himself with some flamable liquid and sets fire to himself. He shouts "shoot me!" or possibly "put out the fire!" (sounds alike in Norwegian and Swedish). The police puts out the fire and sends him to hospital. The man is now badly burnt and in a coma, but he will live. The man is said not to be involved in the court case in any way. Most likely a mentally instable person, possibly atempting "suicide by cop" (very difficult in Norway ...)
From the testemoney of Ina (22): - He shot me in both arms,but I thought "I can survive this.". Then he shot me in the jaw. "This is far more serious", I thought then. When he shot me in the chest I thought "Now I die. This is what it feels like to die". Breivik also thought so, and left the room. Ina got up and ran out of the building while she held her jaw in place with her hands. Four other youth found her and tried to stop the bleeding from one wound each by pressing stones against the bullet-holes. Once Breivik passed them just two metres away.
Amazingly, Ine is still beautiful and funny. The judge laughed several times.
A young man told the court: I was badly wounded and wanted to call home to say goodbye to my parents. My friends had to dial for me, but I couldn`t say the number clearly. So I spat on the floor and wrote the number on the floor with the blood.
Several survivors speaks of being on the ground with many dead bodies. Cell phones started ringing in the pockets and hands of the murded kids. On the displays often often flashed Mom or Dad. Usually they couldn`t bring themselves to pick up the phones and give the parents the horrible news.
One thing that becomes clear when one reads about them is that they were an elite. They would protest this, but they were. Not economically, but socially and politically. They were active in sports and music. They were leaders in local organizations like Red Cross, Greenpeace and other groups working with culture, politics and the envirorment. These were leader-types. Since they were top representatives of Labour party Youth, they were future leaders. They would have ended up as mayors, MP`s and ministers of future Norwegian governments. The top leader of Labour Party Youth will probably be Prime Minister some day, or at least sit by the king`s table as a minister. The current Prime Minister have this background, and so did several other Prime Ministers. This is simply because the Labour party has been the biggest party since the 1930`s.
There was a documentary last night on the incident. Just terrible. The events and testimonials from survivors - it doesn't seem real that a man could do such things. The survivors were so eloquent, so matter-of-fact. I've been in wars, and I've seen some awful scenes, but I couldn't imagine the fear of being defenceless and hunted like they were. And he killed so many, one after the other. Some of the victims must literally have been waiting for their turn as he shot the people beside them. It's just so shocking when the events are rolled out in front of you.
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
I have read stories of soldiers on troop transport ships under attack. Many found this to be the worst experience of the war, because they couldn't shoot back. Often they shot back, even though it was very unlikely to have any effect, simply because it made them feel better about the situation. We also know that one of the points of military training is to conditioning people for the horror of war, and obviously few or none of the people on Utøya had military training.
There are daily reports in the media from the testemonies, here are some small bits that are very memorable:
I wrote about Ine in an earlier post. When she was in the forrest and four people were trying to stop the blood from one wound each while Breivik was hunting for them, remembers seing a drop of rainwater hanging from a leaf. She looked at it and thought :"How beautiful! Imagine that something so beautiful exists!".
Two girls were running along a path when the oldest sees the ground is full of bleeding corpses. "Look at the sky! Look at the sky!" she told the other one, wanting to spare her the horrible memory. The Norwegian we have the same word for sky and heaven - himmel.
Another testemony:"- I asked her not to look at my face. You don't have to look at my badly injured face." She answered:"- You are very, very beautiful."
"I saw a girl (14-15 years old) who was bleeding from her head. I asked her if she had fallen, but she was shot. She wrote her name on the ground in blood to show us she was alive and concious."
One girl used her top to stop the bleeding on one of the injured. She ran on and found another badly injured kid, a girl. She had nothing to stop the blood with, so she ran towards the sound of gunfire where she knew the first aid tent was. She came back with the first aid kit and stopped the bleeding. Later she went searching for help. The only person she saw was Breivik. He was standing by the shore, scanning for more kids to shoot. The girl just stood still in the forrest, watching him:"If he got off the island I wanted to be able to give his discription to the police."
Two friends tried to hide on the side of a steep cliff. One of the boys slipped an fell many metres down. The other boy held on to the cliff while he watched his friend die and slowly slide into the water. "When I was saved I was neither sad nor happy, just numb. I didn't care anymore."
"I had one goal when the shooting started - to save Silje. I failed."
Two friends ran together and swam together, but the injured boy drowned. "I swam away from my friend", the survivor said while fighting back tears.
One witness was blinded on one eye. "It has its advantages", he said and pointed at Breivik who was sitting in his blind spot. The court laughed.
I'm sorry for unloading this on you, the stories are horrible. I guess this thread may be some kind of therapy for me.
I understand your need for unloading this as therapy. When you either experience something bad, or are affected by what you hear it helps to talk. I went for a few years not mentioning my service to anyone. I never talk about Kuwait/Iraq, Bosnia or Afghanistan (2001 OEF) to anybody, but have found myself casually relaying it on here. I think thats been a sort of therapy for me in many ways. It's been really difficult adapting to civilian life, and I either feel really bored half the time, or feel I should have left sooner and gone down another career path. Either way I'll have images in my head I think will never go away. But back to Norway - any deaths involving the young especially are hard. I saw that in Bosnia. Dead kids and mothers - the Serbians did unmentionable things to them, or their bodies afterwards. And we couldn't do a damn thing about it. They goaded us as we passed through, or built checkpoints - even threw a body part at one guy. I'll never forget that, not even for a day.
Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:
Thank you for the kind words. Of cource I didn`t know any of those killed, but to quote an old Norwegian poem: "We are so few in this country, every fallen is a sister or brother." This is a country where a single, "normal" murder usually is the lead in national news broadcast.
Also, I am a teacher. I have moved around a bit and I don`t recall the full name of all the pupils I`ve had over the years. I haven`t seen a complete list of everyone who was on the island, but I may very well have known one or two.
Early in this topic I wrote that there are two reports on Breivik`s mental health. The first concluded he was too psycotic to understand what he did and hence should be sentenced to a mental institution. Many experts on the field found this report to be of very questinable quality. However the the official Commity of Legal Medicine (CLM) raised no objections to it an approved it at once. The court was not satisfied and ordered other experts to write a second report. They concluded that Breivik was not too pscotic to serve in jail. The CLM has been nitpicking on this report, ordering the writers to make further investigations on several themes. Now they say the court should "ta til etteretning" the second report. The Norwegian frase is hard to translate, but "accnolege the existance of" or "take into consideration" comes close. The frase is normally used in the sense "I know it`s there, but I don`t like it." The CLM usually approves or not approves reports of this kind and never before have they said a report is "til etteretning". The juges have had enough now,and told the CLM to clarify their opinion. I am proud of how the rest of the trial is run, but the the mental health experts are looking more like court jesters.
Comments
http://apbateman.com
If we ever meet in person, there's a pint waiting for you.
I couldn't agree with your statement more if I'd written it myself, top marks.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
I fully appreciate and support the need for straight forward laws concerning firearms.
However, banning law abiding legal owners of firearms used for sport or land management does NOTHING to curb the use of illegal firearm.
How would you feel if the police came round and said "a kid joyriding killed a guy by running him over in a stolen car, so hand over your car keys cos they're all banned now"?
I personally as a supporter and holder or firearms would welcome WITH OPEN ARMS a set of proper common sense rules, including a mental evaluation at every renewal.
The bottom line is the police haven't the money to pay for the staff to properly manage the situation, plus they're concentrating their efforts in the wrong direction.
So yes, I believe in gun laws, but wish they were properly enforced.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Then again, if someone is into that as a hobby, well, nobody likes having their liberty to do something taken away.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Our citizens have used the 2nd amendment a number of times to make sure that government stays within it's bounds. Look up the Battle of Athens, Tennessee. I have twice had to use a gun to repel would be muggers. I didn't have to pull the trigger, most gun fights end when someone pulls a gun.
Like I said, I don't really care for capital punishment, however, I have no qualms about throwing some dirt bag in prison and leaving him. Not everyone can be reformed.
I still maintain that if the first 100 Jews had taken a Stromtrooper with them the Holocaust would not have happened. Bullies don't like people fighting back. The ones who fought are the ones who lived.
'Just because nobody complains doesn't mean all parachutes are perfect.'- Benny Hill (1924-1992)
-{
http://apbateman.com
If the jews had fought back against the stormtroopers Hilter would have used it as an excuse to strike harder and sooner againt them than he did. There were jews who fought back, such as the ghetto in Warshaw and when they tried to blow up the owens in Auschwitz. The death rate was close to 100%. The ones who fought usually died, and the nazis allways hit back and killed many more civilians than the number of Germans killed.
While it is adviseable not to trust governments completely, I doubt owning guns is the best way to resist the more questionable sides of democratic governments. Make sure the human rights and rules of democracy are not undermined, get information from the media and use the newspapers and other media known for professionalism and critical thinking, be politically active an vote smartly. That`s how you make sure your fridoms aren`t taken from you in a democracy. "Naive Norwegian", you might think. Perhaps, but is it any more rational and less naive to think you are fighting a sneaky governemnt better by owning a gun or five?
http://apbateman.com
In general media fatigue is a problem. When war breakes out, an eartquake strikes or refugee camps are full of children with swollen bellies the media show up in hordes and flood the airwaves with what they see. But this only lasts a week or two. I think the media should cover more issues at a time and cover them over longer periods of time. I like media sourses who belive their audience are inteligent people. I just listened to BBC World Service and I think it` great!
feet from Breivik.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/06/justice-cheated
Another girl was shot in the leg when she ran. When she realized she was hit she took out the bullet with her fingers. She got to the shore and started swimming in the cold water. She had an astama attack, but manged to stay afloat. Breivik had calculated that the chilly water would function as a "weapon of mass destruction", because they would drown due to being paralyzed from fear and cold. Only one kid drowned. This brave girl, shot in the leg, was saved after a hour in the water. Her message to the terrorist: -We won, you lost. Norwegian youth kan swim!
When civilians with small boats came to rescue the swimmers, they were often told: - I can wait. Take the others first.
Amazingly, Ine is still beautiful and funny. The judge laughed several times.
A young man told the court: I was badly wounded and wanted to call home to say goodbye to my parents. My friends had to dial for me, but I couldn`t say the number clearly. So I spat on the floor and wrote the number on the floor with the blood.
Several survivors speaks of being on the ground with many dead bodies. Cell phones started ringing in the pockets and hands of the murded kids. On the displays often often flashed Mom or Dad. Usually they couldn`t bring themselves to pick up the phones and give the parents the horrible news.
One thing that becomes clear when one reads about them is that they were an elite. They would protest this, but they were. Not economically, but socially and politically. They were active in sports and music. They were leaders in local organizations like Red Cross, Greenpeace and other groups working with culture, politics and the envirorment. These were leader-types. Since they were top representatives of Labour party Youth, they were future leaders. They would have ended up as mayors, MP`s and ministers of future Norwegian governments. The top leader of Labour Party Youth will probably be Prime Minister some day, or at least sit by the king`s table as a minister. The current Prime Minister have this background, and so did several other Prime Ministers. This is simply because the Labour party has been the biggest party since the 1930`s.
http://apbateman.com
There are daily reports in the media from the testemonies, here are some small bits that are very memorable:
I wrote about Ine in an earlier post. When she was in the forrest and four people were trying to stop the blood from one wound each while Breivik was hunting for them, remembers seing a drop of rainwater hanging from a leaf. She looked at it and thought :"How beautiful! Imagine that something so beautiful exists!".
Two girls were running along a path when the oldest sees the ground is full of bleeding corpses. "Look at the sky! Look at the sky!" she told the other one, wanting to spare her the horrible memory. The Norwegian we have the same word for sky and heaven - himmel.
Another testemony:"- I asked her not to look at my face. You don't have to look at my badly injured face." She answered:"- You are very, very beautiful."
"I saw a girl (14-15 years old) who was bleeding from her head. I asked her if she had fallen, but she was shot. She wrote her name on the ground in blood to show us she was alive and concious."
One girl used her top to stop the bleeding on one of the injured. She ran on and found another badly injured kid, a girl. She had nothing to stop the blood with, so she ran towards the sound of gunfire where she knew the first aid tent was. She came back with the first aid kit and stopped the bleeding. Later she went searching for help. The only person she saw was Breivik. He was standing by the shore, scanning for more kids to shoot. The girl just stood still in the forrest, watching him:"If he got off the island I wanted to be able to give his discription to the police."
Two friends tried to hide on the side of a steep cliff. One of the boys slipped an fell many metres down. The other boy held on to the cliff while he watched his friend die and slowly slide into the water. "When I was saved I was neither sad nor happy, just numb. I didn't care anymore."
"I had one goal when the shooting started - to save Silje. I failed."
Two friends ran together and swam together, but the injured boy drowned. "I swam away from my friend", the survivor said while fighting back tears.
One witness was blinded on one eye. "It has its advantages", he said and pointed at Breivik who was sitting in his blind spot. The court laughed.
I'm sorry for unloading this on you, the stories are horrible. I guess this thread may be some kind of therapy for me.
http://apbateman.com
Also, I am a teacher. I have moved around a bit and I don`t recall the full name of all the pupils I`ve had over the years. I haven`t seen a complete list of everyone who was on the island, but I may very well have known one or two.