To me it's fairly simple, don't care how many and who dies, at some point everybody dies :
Gun = freedom.
Gun laws = regulated freedom.
Gun ban = well you get it and depending where you are in the world you may believe you're in a safe and happy democratic republic.
Now I am not saying where I stand
But each time they take away some piece of freedom (guns, speed,...) in the name of safety, it's a step toward 'middle tax paying class' control, the bad guys don't care about laws and the 'powerful', most of the time get away with anything.
To me it's fairly simple, don't care how many and who dies, at some point everybody dies :
Gun = freedom.
Gun laws = regulated freedom.
Gun ban = well you get it and depending where you are in the world you may believe you're in a safe and happy democratic republic.
Now I am not saying where I stand
But each time they take away some piece of freedom (guns, speed,...) in the name of safety, it's a step toward 'middle tax paying class' control, the bad guys don't care about laws and the 'powerful', most of the time get away with anything.
While I totally agree that banning the ones who abide by the rules doesn't stop the criminal fraternity, I don't think any of the parents in Sandy Hook would take kindly to your first statement, can't say I do tbh....
Not sure it's the bad guys who are the problem here, we're not talking Al Capone, we're talking loony nutters who otherwise would not have the wherewithal to get hold of a shotgun, unless they really went out of their way. Most of these nutters just have it to hand, they're the ones who get into schools, not your average mobster or hold-up guy who at least would be more selective and 'rational' about not wanting to get caught.
"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
I really try and stay away from topics involving guns as I have pretty strong views on gun ownership...but that comment is just ludicrous.
I respect anyone's opinion on any subject, I just wish people would find out the facts before swinging their axes. I'd say you're a pretty level headed guy SM, and your totally entitled to not be a fan of guns and shooting sports. My desire is not to drag 'non-believers' kicking and screaming to a gun range for 'reconditioning' ala clockwork orange, but I'd just love people to adopt a more fact based approach instead of thinking us shooters are all trigger happy nutters.
I don't see guns as a symbol of freedom. Freedom for me is the ability to have freedom of speech, to be able to vote for parliament etc.
I see my guns as simply sporting equipment, non of them are designed with killing in mind. Now some may seem to think that's strange, but think about knives, some are designed for hunting and swords are designed for fighting. Carving knives however are for chefs to use etc. they're all knives, but the have very different uses. My guns are the same, they all fire a bullet but they're not like an SA80, which was designed for a totally different use.
For the record, I have no desire to shoot game, I never have, doubt I ever will and I strongly disagree with the 'shoot anything that moves' view. Shooting game isn't for me, but I'm not against it. Sensible game shooting is all about land management, and shooting only when one shot will do the job, and only shooting what you need to, either to control vermin, or fill the pot. Bagging 30 odd bunnies in a night and leaving them to rot in a ditch is NOT what hunting with guns is about.
Like I've previously said, if you want to know about shooting, visit your local range and have a chat. Be polite, don't go with an agenda to stir up trouble, be sensible and listen to what people have to say.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
Cheers for that, MG - I think
I've been out checking peoples gun licences and how they store them - ie do they conform to the law....so I've a fair idea thanks Although that was a few years ago.
If it were up to me I wouldn't allow anybody to keep guns at home...I'd make them keep them locked away at a registered gun club - and I'd insist on better screening before anybody was allowed one.
So watch out for that when I take over the country
I've been out checking peoples gun licences and how they store them - ie do they conform to the law....so I've a fair idea thanks Although that was a few years ago.
If it were up to me I wouldn't allow anybody to keep guns at home...I'd make them keep them locked away at a registered gun club - and I'd insist on better screening before anybody was allowed one.
So watch out for that when I take over the country
) watch the birdy.....
I guess you could have everyone store their guns at the clubs, but with over 100 members, can you imagine the space and security you'd need to store over 500 guns and at least 60,000 rounds of ammunition....? By advertising your club so new members can find you would also make the clubs a huge flashing red beacon of a target for burglars, would you want someone trying to illegally gain access to such a high number of guns and ammo?
Maybe all the supermarkets should just sell pre-chopped up meat so you wouldn't need any chefs knives in your home. You do know what the most popular murder weapon is in the UK don't you....?
I certainly ain't falling out with you mate, and I think that the issue of gun ownership, both here in the UK and over the pond, is a very complex one with no easy quick fix solution.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
You are right, mate....better to leave the guns in peoples homes in ramshackle tin boxes where they can break in and kill the owners for a start - serve 'em right for wanting a gun in the first place 8-)
The knife is the most used - only because its slightly more difficult to get hold of a gun...but only slightly more for now...
I wouldn't advertise a gun club either...but isn't it easier to protect one place than hundreds ? I would have thought so, seems kinda obvious....
I'm not falling out with you either...even if it may appear I am...I guess it just shows you how much this subject gets under my skin...
A bit weird too seeing as I'm a fan of a government murderer
I should take my own advice and either shut these threads...or stay out of 'em.
I've been out checking peoples gun licences and how they store them - ie do they conform to the law....so I've a fair idea thanks Although that was a few years ago.
If it were up to me I wouldn't allow anybody to keep guns at home...I'd make them keep them locked away at a registered gun club - and I'd insist on better screening before anybody was allowed one.
So watch out for that when I take over the country
) watch the birdy.....
I guess you could have everyone store their guns at the clubs, but with over 100 members, can you imagine the space and security you'd need to store over 500 guns and at least 60,000 rounds of ammunition....? By advertising your club so new members can find you would also make the clubs a huge flashing red beacon of a target for burglars, would you want someone trying to illegally gain access to such a high number of guns and ammo?
Maybe all the supermarkets should just sell pre-chopped up meat so you wouldn't need any chefs knives in your home. You do know what the most popular murder weapon is in the UK don't you....?
I certainly ain't falling out with you mate, and I think that the issue of gun ownership, both here in the UK and over the pond, is a very complex one with no easy quick fix solution.
You're right - here in NI guns are kept aty home in a gun cabinet. That's the safest place for them - not in a gun club, which would of course invites robberies, as minigeff says!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
I've been out checking peoples gun licences and how they store them - ie do they conform to the law....so I've a fair idea thanks Although that was a few years ago.
If it were up to me I wouldn't allow anybody to keep guns at home...I'd make them keep them locked away at a registered gun club - and I'd insist on better screening before anybody was allowed one.
So watch out for that when I take over the country
) watch the birdy.....
I guess you could have everyone store their guns at the clubs, but with over 100 members, can you imagine the space and security you'd need to store over 500 guns and at least 60,000 rounds of ammunition....? By advertising your cilub so new members can find you would also make the clubs a huge flashing red beacon of a target for burglars, would you want someone trying to illegally gain access to such a high number of guns and ammo?
Maybe all the supermarkets should just sell pre-chopped up meat so you wouldn't need any chefs knives in your home. You do know what the most popular murder weapon is in the UK don't you....?
I certainly ain't falling out with you mate, and I think that the issue of gun ownership, both here in the UK and over the pond, is a very complex one with no easy quick fix solution.
You're right - here in NI guns are kept aty home in a gun cabinet. That's the safest place for them - not in a gun club, which would of course invites robberies, as minigeff says!
So you've never had a break in at a house and had a gun stolen then ?
Do me a favour..... 8-)
YNWA 97
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
I guess you could have everyone store their guns at the clubs, but with over 100 members, can you imagine the space and security you'd need to store over 500 guns and at least 60,000 rounds of ammunition....? By advertising your cilub so new members can find you would also make the clubs a huge flashing red beacon of a target for burglars, would you want someone trying to illegally gain access to such a high number of guns and ammo?
Maybe all the supermarkets should just sell pre-chopped up meat so you wouldn't need any chefs knives in your home. You do know what the most popular murder weapon is in the UK don't you....?
I certainly ain't falling out with you mate, and I think that the issue of gun ownership, both here in the UK and over the pond, is a very complex one with no easy quick fix solution.
You're right - here in NI guns are kept aty home in a gun cabinet. That's the safest place for them - not in a gun club, which would of course invites robberies, as minigeff says!
So you've never had a break in at a house and had a gun stolen then ?
Do me a favour..... 8-)
Not as yet, no. I don't think gun ownership is something people go shouting about the fields or streets - they tend to keep it quiet!
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
Think on two other forums that I joined, the topic "guns" is prohibited due to the heated nature of the topic {:)
You know...it used to be banned here too...but one Mod fought against it...can't remember his name...think he still posts here though....his argument was that its ok as long as people are sensible about the discussion...but then draxhugo tosses in a grenade about how guns equal freedom and we end up way off topic... 8-)
Just for those who aren't aware, in order to buy a firearm in the UK, you have to apply, and have 2 people give character references to back up your claim you're not nuts. These references are not to be seen by the applicant, and sent straight to the police. For firearms certificates you'll need to be a full member of a registered gun club, and have sound reason for owning each and every gun you own. Once your application has been received, the police can contact your club, your referees and even your doctor to gauge if you are suitable. An inspector will then visit you at home to interview you and check your security and suitability of your gun cabinet. The cabinet had to have a kits mark, and be anchored to the fabric of the building (your home), cannot be sited in an outbuilding and preferably should be out of sight so you can't see it from a window or open door. You will be limited on what guns you can hold and the amount of ammunition you can purchase and hold. Once all the checks and inspections are done, your certificate must be finally approved by the chief constable if your police force, and only then can you go and buy your first gun.
Your certificate is valid for 5 years, after which the process is repeated, all of it. The police can revoke your certificate at any time within reason. If you have a criminal record, convictions for serious crime or history of mental illness or instability you should not be granted a certificate. If you suffer from mental illness after a certificate has been granted, your doctor should notify the police and your guns will be confiscated until the matter is resolved or the decision is made to permanently revoke your licence. The same applies for convictions.
So gun owners should not be storing their guns in 'ramshackle tin boxes', under the bed or in the cupboard, they should be stored unloaded, including magazines, with bolts removed and ammunition and bolts stored separately from the guns.
Remember folks that there was the correct systems in place to stop Dunblane happening, and on 18 separate occasions the police were advised to revoke Thomas Hamilton's licence. The police failed. Who paid the price? The schoolkids.
The correct system is in place, the police should use it properly.
I detest it when people make out that guns are thrown under beds or its easy to obtain one legally and anyone can do it. People read things like 'ramshackle tin boxes' and start thinking "is that all you have to do to store them?!" and then panic sets in.
Which conveniently leads me right back to the original rant, that people should get their facts right or not say anything at all.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
Have you been round to peoples houses and see how they store them ? I have....like I said...ramshackle tin boxes...bolted to the wall, granted...but some were not suitable....
I just hope the days are long past of the Police turning a 'blind eye' to fellow Freemasons too....facts, dear heart...all facts
YNWA 97
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
Have you been round to peoples houses and see how they store them ? I have....like I said...ramshackle tin boxes...bolted to the wall, granted...but some were not suitable....
I just hope the days are long past of the Police turning a 'blind eye' to fellow Freemasons too....facts, dear heart...all facts
Well, you'd have bother removing them here in NI, no ramshackle boxes for us, you know! But then we always werre well ahead of mainland GB - we hasd computerised records for cattle testing and photographic ID in the form of driver's licences years before you guys over the water! It was all a result of "The Troubles".
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
And no one has pissed me off by the way, like I say, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I just wish people could be less blinkered on this subject.
I think the main culprits are the authorities. The UK gun laws are a total shambles and utterly ineffective. I can own an air pistol that looks like a p99, but I buy a lower powered BB gun of the same appearance and I can get up to 51 weeks inside for it.
I can buy a real gun and fit the action into a new stock. Take out the real gun and replace it with a piece of harmless black plastic tube for the barrel and that's illegal.
Self contained air pistols are illegal to buy, unless you already owned one when that stupid change came in, in which get it put on ya FAC and ya fine.
It's a bloody mess, the whole firearms act needs scrapping and writing again.
And no one has pissed me off by the way, like I say, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I just wish people could be less blinkered on this subject.
I think the main culprits are the authorities. The UK gun laws are a total shambles and utterly ineffective. I can own an air pistol that looks like a p99, but I buy a lower powered BB gun of the same appearance and I can get up to 51 weeks inside for it.
I can buy a real gun and fit the action into a new stock. Take out the real gun and replace it with a piece of harmless black plastic tube for the barrel and that's illegal.
Self contained air pistols are illegal to buy, unless you already owned one when that stupid change came in, in which get it put on ya FAC and ya fine.
It's a bloody mess, the whole firearms act needs scrapping and writing again.
Could you tell us the Act that most of this comes under in England?
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Comments
Gun = freedom.
Gun laws = regulated freedom.
Gun ban = well you get it and depending where you are in the world you may believe you're in a safe and happy democratic republic.
Now I am not saying where I stand
But each time they take away some piece of freedom (guns, speed,...) in the name of safety, it's a step toward 'middle tax paying class' control, the bad guys don't care about laws and the 'powerful', most of the time get away with anything.
While I totally agree that banning the ones who abide by the rules doesn't stop the criminal fraternity, I don't think any of the parents in Sandy Hook would take kindly to your first statement, can't say I do tbh....
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Roger Moore 1927-2017
How the hell do guns = freedom ?:)
I really try and stay away from topics involving guns as I have pretty strong views on gun ownership...but that comment is just ludicrous.
But that's not his first borderline comment.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I respect anyone's opinion on any subject, I just wish people would find out the facts before swinging their axes. I'd say you're a pretty level headed guy SM, and your totally entitled to not be a fan of guns and shooting sports. My desire is not to drag 'non-believers' kicking and screaming to a gun range for 'reconditioning' ala clockwork orange, but I'd just love people to adopt a more fact based approach instead of thinking us shooters are all trigger happy nutters.
I don't see guns as a symbol of freedom. Freedom for me is the ability to have freedom of speech, to be able to vote for parliament etc.
I see my guns as simply sporting equipment, non of them are designed with killing in mind. Now some may seem to think that's strange, but think about knives, some are designed for hunting and swords are designed for fighting. Carving knives however are for chefs to use etc. they're all knives, but the have very different uses. My guns are the same, they all fire a bullet but they're not like an SA80, which was designed for a totally different use.
For the record, I have no desire to shoot game, I never have, doubt I ever will and I strongly disagree with the 'shoot anything that moves' view. Shooting game isn't for me, but I'm not against it. Sensible game shooting is all about land management, and shooting only when one shot will do the job, and only shooting what you need to, either to control vermin, or fill the pot. Bagging 30 odd bunnies in a night and leaving them to rot in a ditch is NOT what hunting with guns is about.
Like I've previously said, if you want to know about shooting, visit your local range and have a chat. Be polite, don't go with an agenda to stir up trouble, be sensible and listen to what people have to say.
MG
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
I've been out checking peoples gun licences and how they store them - ie do they conform to the law....so I've a fair idea thanks
If it were up to me I wouldn't allow anybody to keep guns at home...I'd make them keep them locked away at a registered gun club - and I'd insist on better screening before anybody was allowed one.
So watch out for that when I take over the country
When it's the other guy holding it, it's not.
I think a bit of the US frontier mentality is that the 'other guy' out there will be having a gun.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I guess you could have everyone store their guns at the clubs, but with over 100 members, can you imagine the space and security you'd need to store over 500 guns and at least 60,000 rounds of ammunition....? By advertising your club so new members can find you would also make the clubs a huge flashing red beacon of a target for burglars, would you want someone trying to illegally gain access to such a high number of guns and ammo?
Maybe all the supermarkets should just sell pre-chopped up meat so you wouldn't need any chefs knives in your home. You do know what the most popular murder weapon is in the UK don't you....?
I certainly ain't falling out with you mate, and I think that the issue of gun ownership, both here in the UK and over the pond, is a very complex one with no easy quick fix solution.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
The knife is the most used - only because its slightly more difficult to get hold of a gun...but only slightly more for now...
I wouldn't advertise a gun club either...but isn't it easier to protect one place than hundreds ? I would have thought so, seems kinda obvious....
I'm not falling out with you either...even if it may appear I am...I guess it just shows you how much this subject gets under my skin...
A bit weird too seeing as I'm a fan of a government murderer
I should take my own advice and either shut these threads...or stay out of 'em.
You're right - here in NI guns are kept aty home in a gun cabinet. That's the safest place for them - not in a gun club, which would of course invites robberies, as minigeff says!
That's maybe the way AJB needs to go too, methinks!
So you've never had a break in at a house and had a gun stolen then ?
Do me a favour..... 8-)
Not as yet, no. I don't think gun ownership is something people go shouting about the fields or streets - they tend to keep it quiet!
You know...it used to be banned here too...but one Mod fought against it...can't remember his name...think he still posts here though....his argument was that its ok as long as people are sensible about the discussion...but then draxhugo tosses in a grenade about how guns equal freedom and we end up way off topic... 8-)
Your certificate is valid for 5 years, after which the process is repeated, all of it. The police can revoke your certificate at any time within reason. If you have a criminal record, convictions for serious crime or history of mental illness or instability you should not be granted a certificate. If you suffer from mental illness after a certificate has been granted, your doctor should notify the police and your guns will be confiscated until the matter is resolved or the decision is made to permanently revoke your licence. The same applies for convictions.
So gun owners should not be storing their guns in 'ramshackle tin boxes', under the bed or in the cupboard, they should be stored unloaded, including magazines, with bolts removed and ammunition and bolts stored separately from the guns.
Remember folks that there was the correct systems in place to stop Dunblane happening, and on 18 separate occasions the police were advised to revoke Thomas Hamilton's licence. The police failed. Who paid the price? The schoolkids.
The correct system is in place, the police should use it properly.
I detest it when people make out that guns are thrown under beds or its easy to obtain one legally and anyone can do it. People read things like 'ramshackle tin boxes' and start thinking "is that all you have to do to store them?!" and then panic sets in.
Which conveniently leads me right back to the original rant, that people should get their facts right or not say anything at all.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
I just hope the days are long past of the Police turning a 'blind eye' to fellow Freemasons too....facts, dear heart...all facts
Well, you'd have bother removing them here in NI, no ramshackle boxes for us, you know! But then we always werre well ahead of mainland GB - we hasd computerised records for cattle testing and photographic ID in the form of driver's licences years before you guys over the water! It was all a result of "The Troubles".
As I said...it was many years ago...and they don't want to remove to boxes...just open them...
And are you 100% sure you haven't had any break-ins with firearms being stolen ?
Yes, as there's always someone at home, I think that we might have noticed!
I genuinely don't wish to argue or fall out with people on here...and some whom I regard as friends....whether they like it or not
It's just this subject really gets under my skin and it's an itch I just can't scratch...and I know what I've seen and heard...
I imagine as in most things security related that the law in NI is more stringent when it comes to guns that any other part of the UK. See here:
The Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004.
A fireproof box is a legal requirement on the part of a gun owner here and has been for longer ago than 2004.
If people store guns any other way, then they are breaking the law, unless they have their gun in the back of their car to go shooting with.
And if people are storing their guns improperly then I hope the law are advising them accordingly.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
I think the main culprits are the authorities. The UK gun laws are a total shambles and utterly ineffective. I can own an air pistol that looks like a p99, but I buy a lower powered BB gun of the same appearance and I can get up to 51 weeks inside for it.
I can buy a real gun and fit the action into a new stock. Take out the real gun and replace it with a piece of harmless black plastic tube for the barrel and that's illegal.
Self contained air pistols are illegal to buy, unless you already owned one when that stupid change came in, in which get it put on ya FAC and ya fine.
It's a bloody mess, the whole firearms act needs scrapping and writing again.
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Could you tell us the Act that most of this comes under in England?
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org
Having read the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 s. 36, I must say that it seems very sensible - not to convert weapons for use.