As for letting "the girl" die,... two words, folks. Fiona Volpe.. Slamming the folder with the red star on it closed with that one.
I don't really see that, as Fiona was an out-and-out femme fetale plotting to kill Bond, whereas Severine is not.
Thats very true. I for one felt a lot of remorse for Severine, but none for Fiona.
She was a real villain. However, thought Severine did not come across as a scheming villain, the fact that she was packing a pistol when Bond met her and considering the company she kept, and that she didn't react too much to a man being shot in the head right in front of her - is a testament to me that she had graduated from being an unwilling sex slave to something much more sinister. She may have been put under Bardem's thumb and wanted out, but it seems she only wanted to get away from him so she could continue to pursue her own illegal lifestyle (which may have included killing - though not necessarily by firearm - she came across to me as more of a poisoner or would hire someone to do it). I got the impression the writers made her fear exaggerated in order to make the unseen Bardem appear to be even more menacing than the normal thugs she was used to dealing with.
This scene was the defining scene in the movie for me. This is the scene that stopped this movie from being one of the greats in my mind (despite the current public adulation for it - give it time and that will die down) and it's where the movie started to go downhill (up to this point the pacing, plot development and scene setting was done magificently). From here the plot holes start making themselves apparent (Silva's motivation, Q's screw-up with the computer, Home Alone in Scotland etc.)
The fact that there is a debate about this scene on this site and elsewhere, and several attempts to rationalize it by myself and others, shows what a screw up it was.
Bottom line - Mendes botched this. Either in the editing (most likely - from what I've heard there was more to the Berenice backstory/set up that was cut which would have definitely shown her as bad - therebye making it more acceptable to the viewer that she could be killed in this way) or in the story telling.
The way it comes across in the final edit and on the screen is 'off'. Why go through all the trouble to make her look vulnerable in the Casino (and she acted the hell out of that scene) and then they just kill her off less than 10 minutes after that and let Craig just brush it off. It just comes across as really strange and unbalanced. If she was more established as a baddie or shown to be a manipulator of men's emotions we would be more accepting of her death - but she was not shown this way - just vulnerable.
The only other time I've felt this uncomfortable was when Mathis was killed in QOS and Bond brushes that off/throws him in the garbage - but he was a man - Bond is meant to at least try to save the ladies, or express some regret.
If they want to restore some credibility they should fix the Berenice editing cuts in the Blu Ray/DVD release - thereby establishing her more clearly as a baddie. We all know about the Airport scene and the case exchange with Patrice that was cut. Put it back in and take out one of the plethora of Dench scenes for god's sake!
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
I know I shouldn't be...but I'm shocked that so many of you completely miss and don't understand this scene...and especially the 'throw away line'....I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I get it....
It doesn't happen often But I agree with Sir Miles.
( He's not the sharpest tool tool in the box, But still a tool, ................................. working for AJB )
And Even a big thicko like me gets it.
The line is for Bond not to show any weakness to Silva who
has just proven what a cold blooded Bast**rd He is.
There is usually an "Innocent" killed in a Bond, Severine is Skyfall's.
But as always is great to read all the different views. -{
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I get this point about Silva showing what a cold blooded 'b' he is etc. I get it. It's pretty obvious.
That does not change the fact that there is an imbalance in Skyfall because there is no female lead per se - and please don't get me started on Dench being the female lead - this is James Bond for god's sake - not 'the Queen'!
So killing off Severine so quickly, after she had made such an impression on us in the casino, and without another female lead, M and Eve notwithstanding - leads to an imbalance in the mind of the viewer for the rest of the movie.
Whatever they do in the next one, they'd better have more air-time for the ladies - I think it's going to happen now that Dench has, thankfully, been dispatched and they will need to put in more women to compensate.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
It doesn't happen often But I agree with Sir Miles.
( He's not the sharpest tool tool in the box, But still a tool, ................................. working for AJB )
And Even a big thicko like me gets it.
The line is for Bond not to show any weakness to Silva who
has just proven what a cold blooded Bast**rd He is.
There is usually an "Innocent" killed in a Bond, Severine is Skyfall's.
But as always is great to read all the different views. -{
Must just be thicko's that understand that scene - the 'clever' ones are obviously looking too deep
And we have to be careful about agreeing like this....makes me question if I was right in the first place
I know I shouldn't be...but I'm shocked that so many of you completely miss and don't understand this scene...and especially the 'throw away line'....I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I get it....
I totally didn't know that Severine was supposed to be bad. By the time she was shot, I just thought she was a damsel who was under the control of a powerful villain. That understanding, however, always contradicted with how sinister and calm she was in Shanghai.
Now I'm thinking that as bondjames is suggesting, a Director's Cut with more scenes may be for the best. Sadly, those alternate cuts never seem to happen for Bond films.
I know I shouldn't be...but I'm shocked that so many of you completely miss and don't understand this scene...and especially the 'throw away line'....I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I get it....
What is the understanding you have of the scene?
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
I know I shouldn't be...but I'm shocked that so many of you completely miss and don't understand this scene...and especially the 'throw away line'....I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I get it....
Jeez how arrogant is that ?
Not arrogant in the slightest...I'm sorry you took it that way...but I take it you don't comprehend this scene then ?
Not knowing about the cut scenes you're all referring to, I thought she's a bit like those "caught in the middle" unfortunates that can sometimes be saved, but sometimes be grist in the mill. Personally, I think she could've survived the scene (Silva's shot) and it wouldn't have hurt the film. Bond not helping her ... that's what is screwing with my mind.
By the way, I think the "lead girl" in this film is Eve ... it's only at the end that you get a delivery on who she is. Read Moonraker. As I recall, Moonraker's damsel had a fiance in London, and Bond has a very demure parting with her at the end of the novel IIRC. (I need to read it again, I'm rereading GOLDFINGER and realizing how much I'd forgotten.)
Oh, BTW, there is another girl in the film ... whomever Bond is "enjoying death" with ... she gets, what, one whole shot? Pffft.
“It reads better than it lives.” T. Case
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
I know I shouldn't be...but I'm shocked that so many of you completely miss and don't understand this scene...and especially the 'throw away line'....I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I get it....
What is the understanding you have of the scene?
This has been discussed elsewhere in this forum...and I gave my thoughts there...as I said....I'm surprised that some missed the nature of this scene...that is all.
I know I shouldn't be...but I'm shocked that so many of you completely miss and don't understand this scene...and especially the 'throw away line'....I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I get it....
What is the understanding you have of the scene?
This has been discussed elsewhere in this forum...and I gave my thoughts there...as I said....I'm surprised that some missed the nature of this scene...that is all.
Okay... I guess I'll try and find your thoughts in one of the other threads out there somehow. )
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
This has been discussed elsewhere in this forum...and I gave my thoughts there...as I said....I'm surprised that some missed the nature of this scene...that is all.
Okay... I guess I'll try and find your thoughts in one of the other threads out there somehow. )
I know I shouldn't be...but I'm shocked that so many of you completely miss and don't understand this scene...and especially the 'throw away line'....I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I get it....
Jeez how arrogant is that ?
Not arrogant in the slightest...I'm sorry you took it that way...but I take it you don't comprehend this scene then ?
I believe the scene is problematic, but for me the problem is Bonds lack of intervention and any kind of remorse. I also feel that Severine knew full well that by taking Bond she was herself going to be killed. However your comment puts me into a bit of a Rumsfeld double bind as I may believe that I comprehend it, but I don't know what it is that I don't know (do ya get me Bro?)
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
Not arrogant in the slightest...I'm sorry you took it that way...but I take it you don't comprehend this scene then ?
I believe the scene is problematic, but for me the problem is Bonds lack of intervention and any kind of remorse. I also feel that Severine knew full well that by taking Bond she was herself going to be killed. However your comment puts me into a bit of a Rumsfeld double bind as I may believe that I comprehend it, but I don't know what it is that I don't know (do ya get me Bro?)
I suppose I understand your quandary...but I genuinely struggle to see how people cannot read this scene...I'm sorry if you take this to be arrogance - it really isn't....Bond DOES show emotion at the death of Severine - to me that's obvious...so obvious that everyone I've spoken too about the film (both Bond fans and general film fans alike) have spoken about how great this scene is and the line Bond delivers after her death - especially as many see this type of line as a throwback to the Bond's of old.
Not arrogant in the slightest...I'm sorry you took it that way...but I take it you don't comprehend this scene then ?
I believe the scene is problematic, but for me the problem is Bonds lack of intervention and any kind of remorse. I also feel that Severine knew full well that by taking Bond she was herself going to be killed. However your comment puts me into a bit of a Rumsfeld double bind as I may believe that I comprehend it, but I don't know what it is that I don't know (do ya get me Bro?)
I suppose I understand your quandary...but I genuinely struggle to see how people cannot read this scene...I'm sorry if you take this to be arrogance - it really isn't....Bond DOES show emotion at the death of Severine - to me that's obvious...so obvious that everyone I've spoken too about the film (both Bond fans and general film fans alike) have spoken about how great this scene is and the line Bond delivers after her death - especially as many see this type of line as a throwback to the Bond's of old.
Wow, maybe DC is just too subtle for me as I genuinely get no sense of that. I have a similar disagreement with a friend re Solange where M chastises bond for feeling nothing after getting her tortured and killed, my friend feels that DC is hiding his pain by agreeing with M. I am not looking for hand wringing or Shakesperaian wailing, I am thinking of how Connerry or Dalton conveyed Bonds anger and determination ( witness Gold paint scene in GF or Saunders death in TLD) If I could get this it would help a lot as my real quibble with DC's Bond is that I do not get a sense of the moral compass and inner conflict necessary to stop him being more Jason Statham than James Bond ( that and his lack of enjoyment of anything, even sex and beautiful women)
I like an awful lot about DC's Bond, but these are real stumbling blocks for me.
Send professional help!
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,749Chief of Staff
Mmmm....Bond is genuinely ambivalent about the death of Solange...he doesn't care...but the death of Severine and his line about it being a waste of good scotch isn't subtle at all, imo....its just bloody well acted and its obvious what the underlying meaning is....like I said - I'm shocked when people say they don't understand this...
I believe the scene is problematic, but for me the problem is Bonds lack of intervention and any kind of remorse. I also feel that Severine knew full well that by taking Bond she was herself going to be killed. However your comment puts me into a bit of a Rumsfeld double bind as I may believe that I comprehend it, but I don't know what it is that I don't know (do ya get me Bro?)
I suppose I understand your quandary...but I genuinely struggle to see how people cannot read this scene...I'm sorry if you take this to be arrogance - it really isn't....Bond DOES show emotion at the death of Severine - to me that's obvious...so obvious that everyone I've spoken too about the film (both Bond fans and general film fans alike) have spoken about how great this scene is and the line Bond delivers after her death - especially as many see this type of line as a throwback to the Bond's of old.
Wow, maybe DC is just too subtle for me as I genuinely get no sense of that. I have a similar disagreement with a friend re Solange where M chastises bond for feeling nothing after getting her tortured and killed, my friend feels that DC is hiding his pain by agreeing with M. I am not looking for hand wringing or Shakesperaian wailing, I am thinking of how Connerry or Dalton conveyed Bonds anger and determination ( witness Gold paint scene in GF or Saunders death in TLD) If I could get this it would help a lot as my real quibble with DC's Bond is that I do not get a sense of the moral compass and inner conflict necessary to stop him being more Jason Statham than James Bond ( that and his lack of enjoyment of anything, even sex and beautiful women)
I like an awful lot about DC's Bond, but these are real stumbling blocks for me.
But then look how emotional he becomes at the death of M. His moral compass is closely linked to duty, rather than chivalry. I think the writers are just trying to convey that he's a cold-hearted b#stard towards women and they're really not giving too much thought to over-analysing his motivation.
Though for the record I've always thought that chivalry was a major part of Bond's appeal.
Btw re the original question: Rosie Carver? Not an out-&-out villain and Bond doesn't show too much remorse at her death...
But then look how emotional he becomes at the death of M. His moral compass is closely linked to duty, rather than chivalry. I think the writers are just trying to convey that he's a cold-hearted b#stard towards women and they're really not giving too much thought to over-analysing his motivation.
Though for the record I've always thought that chivalry was a major part of Bond's appeal.
Btw re the original question: Rosie Carver? Not an out-&-out villain and Bond doesn't show too much remorse at her death...
I know, I know, almost mawkishly hand wringing over the death of Mommy. Agree about the chivalry element. If his moral compass is only about duty it makes him bit of an automaton and he is not as narrow as that.
Well for what it's worth, I reacted to that scene the same way you did. I never thought for a moment that Bond didn't care about what happened to Severine. Instead. he seemed to be keeping his emotions in check for Silva's sake. The way Craig played the scene, I thought I detected a bit of a struggle to contain himself and I credited that to superb acting.
Mmmm....Bond is genuinely ambivalent about the death of Solange...he doesn't care...but the death of Severine and his line about it being a waste of good scotch isn't subtle at all, imo....its just bloody well acted and its obvious what the underlying meaning is....like I said - I'm shocked when people say they don't understand this...
Well for what it's worth, I reacted to that scene the same way you did. I never thought for a moment that Bond didn't care about what happened to Severine. Instead. he seemed to be keeping his emotions in check for Silva's sake. The way Craig played the scene, I thought I detected a bit of a struggle to contain himself and I credited that to superb acting.
Mmmm....Bond is genuinely ambivalent about the death of Solange...he doesn't care...but the death of Severine and his line about it being a waste of good scotch isn't subtle at all, imo....its just bloody well acted and its obvious what the underlying meaning is....like I said - I'm shocked when people say they don't understand this...
That's what I thought, too. He clearly has a struggle as soon as it's happened. Almost like he's containing the fact he's blown away that she was killed without him ever saving her. For duty's sake, he looks like he quickly contains himself, pays Severine a sort of Bond one-liner compliment, and goes about taking action. I definitely don't think he looked dead and carefree or something when she was killed.
This scene was the defining scene in the movie for me. This is the scene that stopped this movie from being one of the greats in my mind (despite the current public adulation for it - give it time and that will die down) and it's where the movie started to go downhill (up to this point the pacing, plot development and scene setting was done magificently). From here the plot holes start making themselves apparent (Silva's motivation, Q's screw-up with the computer, Home Alone in Scotland etc.)
The fact that there is a debate about this scene on this site and elsewhere, and several attempts to rationalize it by myself and others, shows what a screw up it was.
Bottom line - Mendes botched this. Either in the editing (most likely - from what I've heard there was more to the Berenice backstory/set up that was cut which would have definitely shown her as bad - therebye making it more acceptable to the viewer that she could be killed in this way) or in the story telling.
The way it comes across in the final edit and on the screen is 'off'. Why go through all the trouble to make her look vulnerable in the Casino (and she acted the hell out of that scene) and then they just kill her off less than 10 minutes after that and let Craig just brush it off. It just comes across as really strange and unbalanced. If she was more established as a baddie or shown to be a manipulator of men's emotions we would be more accepting of her death - but she was not shown this way - just vulnerable.
The only other time I've felt this uncomfortable was when Mathis was killed in QOS and Bond brushes that off/throws him in the garbage - but he was a man - Bond is meant to at least try to save the ladies, or express some regret.
If they want to restore some credibility they should fix the Berenice editing cuts in the Blu Ray/DVD release - thereby establishing her more clearly as a baddie. We all know about the Airport scene and the case exchange with Patrice that was cut. Put it back in and take out one of the plethora of Dench scenes for god's sake!
Think you're onto something here. It could be very true that some scene was left out that would have put her in more of a bad light that would have left a lot less empathy for her and perhaps they will restore it in the DVD release. I hope this is the case. It's not the first time a character's background/identity would have been skewed because of some film cutting.
There does seem to a "gap" between the shower scene and the boat arriving at the island. And a peculiar lack of surprise or interest on the part of the crew. Like maybe after the shower she threw him a towel and locked him in the chain locker for a day or two. #DUNNO
just watched it again and Im sorry but Her dying is absoloute bllshit and terrible, sloppy, screenwriting at it's best. clumsy way to rid of a character. the dialogue at the casino is the best he has in all three movie with a Bond girl and makes you realise how akward the vesper train scene was. He clearly knows silva is going to kill her and he clearly know how he is going to get himself out of the situation. It is utter crap, I know this is my 4th post on this thread but watching it again tonight made me angry.
Comments
Thats very true. I for one felt a lot of remorse for Severine, but none for Fiona.
She was a real villain. However, thought Severine did not come across as a scheming villain, the fact that she was packing a pistol when Bond met her and considering the company she kept, and that she didn't react too much to a man being shot in the head right in front of her - is a testament to me that she had graduated from being an unwilling sex slave to something much more sinister. She may have been put under Bardem's thumb and wanted out, but it seems she only wanted to get away from him so she could continue to pursue her own illegal lifestyle (which may have included killing - though not necessarily by firearm - she came across to me as more of a poisoner or would hire someone to do it). I got the impression the writers made her fear exaggerated in order to make the unseen Bardem appear to be even more menacing than the normal thugs she was used to dealing with.
The fact that there is a debate about this scene on this site and elsewhere, and several attempts to rationalize it by myself and others, shows what a screw up it was.
Bottom line - Mendes botched this. Either in the editing (most likely - from what I've heard there was more to the Berenice backstory/set up that was cut which would have definitely shown her as bad - therebye making it more acceptable to the viewer that she could be killed in this way) or in the story telling.
The way it comes across in the final edit and on the screen is 'off'. Why go through all the trouble to make her look vulnerable in the Casino (and she acted the hell out of that scene) and then they just kill her off less than 10 minutes after that and let Craig just brush it off. It just comes across as really strange and unbalanced. If she was more established as a baddie or shown to be a manipulator of men's emotions we would be more accepting of her death - but she was not shown this way - just vulnerable.
The only other time I've felt this uncomfortable was when Mathis was killed in QOS and Bond brushes that off/throws him in the garbage - but he was a man - Bond is meant to at least try to save the ladies, or express some regret.
If they want to restore some credibility they should fix the Berenice editing cuts in the Blu Ray/DVD release - thereby establishing her more clearly as a baddie. We all know about the Airport scene and the case exchange with Patrice that was cut. Put it back in and take out one of the plethora of Dench scenes for god's sake!
( He's not the sharpest tool tool in the box, But still a tool, ................................. working for AJB )
And Even a big thicko like me gets it.
The line is for Bond not to show any weakness to Silva who
has just proven what a cold blooded Bast**rd He is.
There is usually an "Innocent" killed in a Bond, Severine is Skyfall's.
But as always is great to read all the different views. -{
That does not change the fact that there is an imbalance in Skyfall because there is no female lead per se - and please don't get me started on Dench being the female lead - this is James Bond for god's sake - not 'the Queen'!
So killing off Severine so quickly, after she had made such an impression on us in the casino, and without another female lead, M and Eve notwithstanding - leads to an imbalance in the mind of the viewer for the rest of the movie.
Whatever they do in the next one, they'd better have more air-time for the ladies - I think it's going to happen now that Dench has, thankfully, been dispatched and they will need to put in more women to compensate.
Must just be thicko's that understand that scene - the 'clever' ones are obviously looking too deep
And we have to be careful about agreeing like this....makes me question if I was right in the first place
I questioned it....I'm still right B-)
Jeez how arrogant is that ?
Now I'm thinking that as bondjames is suggesting, a Director's Cut with more scenes may be for the best. Sadly, those alternate cuts never seem to happen for Bond films.
What is the understanding you have of the scene?
Not arrogant in the slightest...I'm sorry you took it that way...but I take it you don't comprehend this scene then ?
By the way, I think the "lead girl" in this film is Eve ... it's only at the end that you get a delivery on who she is. Read Moonraker. As I recall, Moonraker's damsel had a fiance in London, and Bond has a very demure parting with her at the end of the novel IIRC. (I need to read it again, I'm rereading GOLDFINGER and realizing how much I'd forgotten.)
Oh, BTW, there is another girl in the film ... whomever Bond is "enjoying death" with ... she gets, what, one whole shot? Pffft.
“It reads better than it lives.” T. Case
This has been discussed elsewhere in this forum...and I gave my thoughts there...as I said....I'm surprised that some missed the nature of this scene...that is all.
Okay... I guess I'll try and find your thoughts in one of the other threads out there somehow.
Good man
I believe the scene is problematic, but for me the problem is Bonds lack of intervention and any kind of remorse. I also feel that Severine knew full well that by taking Bond she was herself going to be killed. However your comment puts me into a bit of a Rumsfeld double bind as I may believe that I comprehend it, but I don't know what it is that I don't know (do ya get me Bro?)
I suppose I understand your quandary...but I genuinely struggle to see how people cannot read this scene...I'm sorry if you take this to be arrogance - it really isn't....Bond DOES show emotion at the death of Severine - to me that's obvious...so obvious that everyone I've spoken too about the film (both Bond fans and general film fans alike) have spoken about how great this scene is and the line Bond delivers after her death - especially as many see this type of line as a throwback to the Bond's of old.
Wow, maybe DC is just too subtle for me as I genuinely get no sense of that. I have a similar disagreement with a friend re Solange where M chastises bond for feeling nothing after getting her tortured and killed, my friend feels that DC is hiding his pain by agreeing with M. I am not looking for hand wringing or Shakesperaian wailing, I am thinking of how Connerry or Dalton conveyed Bonds anger and determination ( witness Gold paint scene in GF or Saunders death in TLD) If I could get this it would help a lot as my real quibble with DC's Bond is that I do not get a sense of the moral compass and inner conflict necessary to stop him being more Jason Statham than James Bond ( that and his lack of enjoyment of anything, even sex and beautiful women)
I like an awful lot about DC's Bond, but these are real stumbling blocks for me.
Send professional help!
Though for the record I've always thought that chivalry was a major part of Bond's appeal.
Btw re the original question: Rosie Carver? Not an out-&-out villain and Bond doesn't show too much remorse at her death...
I know, I know, almost mawkishly hand wringing over the death of Mommy. Agree about the chivalry element. If his moral compass is only about duty it makes him bit of an automaton and he is not as narrow as that.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
TIS - "The moment you think you got it figured - you're wrong"
Formerly known as Teppo
That's what I thought, too. He clearly has a struggle as soon as it's happened. Almost like he's containing the fact he's blown away that she was killed without him ever saving her. For duty's sake, he looks like he quickly contains himself, pays Severine a sort of Bond one-liner compliment, and goes about taking action. I definitely don't think he looked dead and carefree or something when she was killed.
Think you're onto something here. It could be very true that some scene was left out that would have put her in more of a bad light that would have left a lot less empathy for her and perhaps they will restore it in the DVD release. I hope this is the case. It's not the first time a character's background/identity would have been skewed because of some film cutting.
“It reads better than it lives.” T. Case
“It reads better than it lives.” T. Case