How elite is the 00 section?

osrisosris Posts: 558MI6 Agent
If the 00 status is awarded to an agent because they’ve killed someone, and thus are seen worthy of being recruited into the 00 section, wouldn’t this mean that any agent (regardless of competence) who had killed someone in the course of their career could be made a 00? If so, then how is the 00 section “elite”? Surely to be elite, it would have to limit itself to accepting only those agents who were the best, and not just who had killed.

Wouldn’t it be better (and in real life it would probably work this way, if a 00 section really existed) if the 00 section recruited the best standard intelligence duty agents from MI6, trained them up to SAS standards, then gave them a licence to kill? This would be a more professional and organised way of doing things.
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Comments

  • Silhouette ManSilhouette Man The last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
    Well of course, this is what in effect happens - afyer all many of the OO agents are indeed ex-commandos, from Naval Intelligence, the Royal Marines, SAS, SBS, the armed forces etc...It takes two kills commissioned by the SIS to become a double-O - read Casino Royale (1953) for more information regarding this on how Bond achieved his double-O status.
    "The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
  • NeverSayDieNeverSayDie Posts: 495MI6 Agent
    Is there a list on the forum of all the named double-o agents from the films?

    Off the top of my head you have

    Bill Fairbanks was he 002 in TWTGG?
    Alex Trevelyn 006 in Goldeneye
    James Bond 007
    009 Octopussy was he named?

    Can you guys help with the rest.
  • MANDY1MANDY1 TISPosts: 2,608MI6 Agent
    Is there a list on the forum of all the named double-o agents from the films?

    Off the top of my head you have

    Bill Fairbanks was he 002 in TWTGG?
    Alex Trevelyn 006 in Goldeneye
    James Bond 007
    009 Octopussy was he named?

    Can you guys help with the rest.

    As far as I remember names of double-o agents were not revealed in films, except those you mentioned above.

    In the PTS of AVTAK, Bond recovers 003's body, but no name were mentioned.

    In the PTS of TLD, Bond infiltrates to Gibraltar with 002 and 004 (who's killed by fake KGB agent), but again no names were mentioned.
    Also 008 is mentioned in TB and in TLD to replace 007 in latter, when he hesitates when M gives briefing about killing General Leonid Pushkin. Bond refers to 008 also in GF, that he'll replace Bond if Goldfinger kills him.
    Knowing who to trust is Everything in this business.

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Even Bond says in CR That 00's don't live long so it would be a
    small but ever changing unit.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 1,061MI6 Agent
    In the novels it is clear that there are no more than 3 operatives in the 00 section and that they share a secretary. So yes I think it is infact quite elite, since (acording to novels) MI6 is not that much into assasination.
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    Teppo wrote:
    Is there a list on the forum of all the named double-o agents from the films?

    Off the top of my head you have

    Bill Fairbanks was he 002 in TWTGG?
    Alex Trevelyn 006 in Goldeneye
    James Bond 007
    009 Octopussy was he named?

    Can you guys help with the rest.

    As far as I remember names of double-o agents were not revealed in films, except those you mentioned above.

    In the PTS of AVTAK, Bond recovers 003's body, but no name were mentioned.

    In the PTS of TLD, Bond infiltrates to Gibraltar with 002 and 004 (who's killed by fake KGB agent), but again no names were mentioned.
    Also 008 is mentioned in TB and in TLD to replace 007 in latter, when he hesitates when M gives briefing about killing General Leonid Pushkin. Bond refers to 008 also in GF, that he'll replace Bond if Goldfinger kills him.

    I think we see more than three during the briefing in TWINE, including a female 00.Also in TB when Bond is late for the briefing we see more in the room.
  • BodieBodie Posts: 211MI6 Agent
    In the novel Moonraker it is stated that there are 3 00's. Obviously the movies being bigger have expanded this number.

    I always think the 00 Section is to MI6 what the SSAS/Delta Force are to the army.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
    I always assumed there are nine 00-agents, 001 to 009.
  • minigeffminigeff EnglandPosts: 7,884MI6 Agent
    As for getting two kills being credentials required for entry to the 00 section, I always thought it was 2 kills while working for the service, as in MI6, so kills in previous careers didn't count.
    'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
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  • Le SamouraiLe Samourai Honolulu, HIPosts: 573MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    I always assumed there are nine 00-agents, 001 to 009.

    Fleming mentions a 0011 in MR.
    —Le Samourai

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  • CmdrAtticusCmdrAtticus United StatesPosts: 1,102MI6 Agent
    minigeff wrote:
    As for getting two kills being credentials required for entry to the 00 section, I always thought it was 2 kills while working for the service, as in MI6, so kills in previous careers didn't count.


    I always believed that as well. I used to discuss this with actual intell officers who were Bond fans (it's amazing how many are) when I was assigned to a NATO base during my service. They were usually in agreement that if there actually was such an elite section in an intelligence service that the recruits would be from experienced field operatives who had a few years under their belt and had shown they were emotionally capable of doing "wet work" if it was absolutely necessary. They also agreed that only a few would be selected and kept in this position and trained for it only if the need arose and that - as Fleming wrote in his novels - such work would only need be done perhaps only once or a couple of times a year for special circumstances, since the killing of the average thugs involved in criminal/espionage activities would be handled by paying similar thugs who killed professionally.
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,638MI6 Agent
    Just watched Thunderball again last night and when Bond arrives in M's office, Moneypenny tells him to go straight to the conference room: "Something pretty big. Every 00-man in Europe has been rushed in..." When Bond enters the conference room he sits in seat number 7 in a line of 9, all men. So in Thunderball there are indeed nine 00-agents, but all based in Europe.
  • FiremassFiremass AlaskaPosts: 1,910MI6 Agent
    osris wrote:
    Wouldn’t it be better if the 00 section recruited the best standard intelligence duty agents from MI6, trained them up to SAS standards, then gave them a licence to kill? This would be a more professional and organised way of doing things.

    I agree. The current system is a catch 22: You have to kill 2 people in order to obtain your licence to kill ? How are you supposed to kill anyone without the license?

    Just because Bond killed some thug in a bathroom fight (CR06) means that he's 1/2 way to becoming a 00 agent ? Doesn't make much sense to me.
    My current 10 favorite:

    1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,754Chief of Staff
    Firemass wrote:
    The current system is a catch 22: You have to kill 2 people in order to obtain your licence to kill ? How are you supposed to kill anyone without the license?

    Just because Bond killed some thug in a bathroom fight (CR06) means that he's 1/2 way to becoming a 00 agent ? Doesn't make much sense to me.

    It's not just about 'killing two people' - if it were then half the army would be double-0 agents !

    It's about completing 'kills' that you are given on behalf of the Government in a subversive manner - you would have to complete them satisfactorily to earn your double-0 status...
    YNWA 97
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    It was also a great selling point for the books and films.
    He was " licenced" to kill -{ looks great on an advert
    Or book cover.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    I thought the notion was that you assassinated someone and not simply killed them anonymously on the battlefield or whatever.
  • dr. evan-gelistdr. evan-gelist SheffieldPosts: 399MI6 Agent
    00s are even better trained than the sas
    "You're in the wrong business... leave it to the professionals!"
    James Bond- Licence To Kill
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    I thought the notion was that you assassinated someone and not simply killed them anonymously on the battlefield or whatever.

    That has always been my impression as well.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    minigeff wrote:
    As for getting two kills being credentials required for entry to the 00 section, I always thought it was 2 kills while working for the service, as in MI6, so kills in previous careers didn't count.


    I always believed that as well. I used to discuss this with actual intell officers who were Bond fans (it's amazing how many are) when I was assigned to a NATO base during my service. They were usually in agreement that if there actually was such an elite section in an intelligence service that the recruits would be from experienced field operatives who had a few years under their belt and had shown they were emotionally capable of doing "wet work" if it was absolutely necessary. They also agreed that only a few would be selected and kept in this position and trained for it only if the need arose and that - as Fleming wrote in his novels - such work would only need be done perhaps only once or a couple of times a year for special circumstances, since the killing of the average thugs involved in criminal/espionage activities would be handled by paying similar thugs who killed professionally.

    That all seems to make good sense and is consistent with how Fleming portrayed Bond's professional life as a specialized operative. When watching the recent and not so recent spy movies like the Bourne series, you'd get the idea that elite operatives are secretly cultivated in various remote locations where they're constantly training and put through rigorous drills and testing scenarios. However, in the books, it's hinted that Bond keeps up his fighting training and he periodically hones his shooting skills, but most of the time he comes into the office with "elastic hours" and does a lot of boring paper work (mostly reading intelligence minutiae) and goes on missions 2-3 times a year; but for the most part, this depiction makes me think that Bond's professional life is not that different from a regular white-collared worker that may be employed in an exporting company.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
    The way I see it the two assassinations are simply the "exam" for potential 00-agent. The agents who show the most promise are trained and given missions to prepare themselves to be 00-agents. If they complete this "school" (very few do) they are ordered to assassinate two people who MI6 wants dead. If they are successful they enter the 00-section. It's not simply a matter of promoting agents that happen to kill people in the field. In the real spy world killings are usually a sure sign of a failed mission, so that would have resulted in the completely wrong type of people becoming 00-agents.
  • CmdrAtticusCmdrAtticus United StatesPosts: 1,102MI6 Agent
    It's why the section has few members and is small (also because in Fleming's fictional Service it's entire community was not as large as other spy agencies).
    It takes a special agent to be able to kill in cold blood in a cold war as opposed to a hot one. It's also why the targets are chosen with care and termination is only the last resort. Bond seldom had to terminate villains in his career. If they were killed it was usually out of self defence.
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    Just trying to remember what I've read about Fleming's life, we know that much of his cold war knowledge was based on his pre-war experiences as a correspondent and of course, his first hand experience handling Allied interagency intellligence traffic in UK Naval Intelligence. However, since he wrote about Bond during the cold war, I wonder how much knowledge he had/didn't have of how MI6 operated in contrast to author "John LeCarre," who actually worked there. How much info did Fleming get from insiders and how much was he forced to make up, I wonder?
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • Asp9mmAsp9mm Over the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
    superado wrote:
    Just trying to remember what I've read about Fleming's life, we know that much of his cold war knowledge was based on his pre-war experiences as a correspondent and of course, his first hand experience handling Allied interagency intellligence traffic in UK Naval Intelligence. However, since he wrote about Bond during the cold war, I wonder how much knowledge he had/didn't have of how MI6 operated in contrast to author "John LeCarre," who actually worked there. How much info did Fleming get from insiders and how much was he forced to make up, I wonder?

    Fleming didn't have Bond in MI6 though, his OO section was based within an organisation that grew from SOE, very different from MI6. The MI6 connection only came up in the films and later post Fleming books. SOE and MI6 had a very different doctrine, and therefore Fleming knew what he was talking about as he had close ties and firm interaction with SOE.

    Your info is out of date. With the recent de-classification of WWII documents, we know Fleming was very much involved with SOE, in the planning and execution of missions and up until two/three years ago had been classified. It is certain now that Fleming's Bond was nothing to do with MI5 or MI6, but a fiction derivative of SOE as it would have been had it not been disbanded.
    ..................Asp9mmSIG-1-2.jpg...............
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    Asp9mm wrote:
    superado wrote:
    Just trying to remember what I've read about Fleming's life, we know that much of his cold war knowledge was based on his pre-war experiences as a correspondent and of course, his first hand experience handling Allied interagency intellligence traffic in UK Naval Intelligence. However, since he wrote about Bond during the cold war, I wonder how much knowledge he had/didn't have of how MI6 operated in contrast to author "John LeCarre," who actually worked there. How much info did Fleming get from insiders and how much was he forced to make up, I wonder?

    Fleming didn't have Bond in MI6 though, his OO section was based within an organisation that grew from SOE, very different from MI6. The MI6 connection only came up in the films and later post Fleming books. SOE and MI6 had a very different doctrine, and therefore Fleming knew what he was talking about as he had close ties and firm interaction with SOE.

    Your info is out of date. With the recent de-classification of WWII documents, we know Fleming was very much involved with SOE, in the planning and execution of missions and up until two/three years ago had been classified. It is certain now that Fleming's Bond was nothing to do with MI5 or MI6, but a fiction derivative of SOE as it would have been had it not been disbanded.

    Oh, ok, that makes sense, thanks. I didn't pay attention to the identity of Bond's Secret Service, which was not the same as the Secret Intelligence Service or MI6, though interestingly, there were organizational overlaps between the two during and after WWII. As far as information I have, I'm not sure if they do reflect the recently declassified data you mentioned, though the books I've read seem to indicate that, namely Craig Cabell's 2 books on Fleming and 30AU, the Rankin book on the same subject and Macintyre's books and not just the one on Fleming, but also Agent Zigzag, Op Mincemeat and Doublecross, have peripheral information about the extent of Fleming's involvement not limited to high-level operations on behalf of Naval Intelligence, but also in the daily inter-departmental intelligence traffic within and between the War Office and Admiralty.

    I don't think that Fleming's role and function ever crossed over to the SOE hierarchy, though he closely coordinated with SOE in his operational planning (many of which didn't come to fruition), or for recruitment for some personnel for and the administration of 30AU. Nonetheless, with the fictional Secret Service being a derivative of SOE, Fleming had enough insider information to flesh it out, though it wouldn't be consistent with the real-life operations of what would have been 007’s logical agency within the UK government, which is MI6. Was it Gardner who first harmonized Bond's Secret Service with MI6? Whoever did, it made good sense to lend some credibility to the continuation novels.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 1,061MI6 Agent
    Also: 30AU looks pretty much like MOB (miscellaneous objectives bureau) in the short story Octopussy. It is mentioned in Octopussy that MOB was formed jointly by the Secret Service and Combined Operations, they were controlled by a joint Anglo American HQ in SHAEF, which also fed them targets from the army intel. units and from the SIS and OSS. This IMHO is clear indication tha Fleming intended Bonds parent service to be quite separate from the MI6.
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    0073 wrote:
    Also: 30AU looks pretty much like MOB (miscellaneous objectives bureau) in the short story Octopussy. It is mentioned in Octopussy that MOB was formed jointly by the Secret Service and Combined Operations, they were controlled by a joint Anglo American HQ in SHAEF, which also fed them targets from the army intel. units and from the SIS and OSS. This IMHO is clear indication tha Fleming intended Bonds parent service to be quite separate from the MI6.

    In short of making me read this long story (joking), was there in the narrative a continuity between MOB and James Bond's post-war Secret Service? One snag I do see in your post is the Anglo American command structure of MOB, since in terms of organzation its real-life counterpart, 30AU didn't fall under SHAEF or any joint allied chain of command, except when the unit sometimes fell under an impromptu Allied (American) chain of command while in the field, where there was a lot of politicking and rivalry not only between the Allies, but also among the service branches of the British Armed Forces.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 1,061MI6 Agent
    Yes there was: Smythe asks Bond how he got mixed up with the whole thing and Bond answers that MOB Force was a responsibility of his service.

    No the command structure is not the same as well as the AO was different: Bavaria for the MOB and italy for the AU.
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    0073 wrote:
    Yes there was: Smythe asks Bond how he got mixed up with the whole thing and Bond answers that MOB Force was a responsibility of his service.

    No the command structure is not the same as well as the AO was different: Bavaria for the MOB and italy for the AU.

    Thanks for confirming, which reinforces what Asp9mm said that indeed Fleming wrote of Bond's fictional Service as an iteratoin of his own WWII organization.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • CmdrAtticusCmdrAtticus United StatesPosts: 1,102MI6 Agent
    Between Fleming's loyalty to the Official Secrets Act, knowledge of the wartime intel operations and more than likely still having contacts in the post-war intel world (that old boy network), I always though it understandable he created Bond and the Service through a mixing up of the real and his imagination. Though Bond was essentially a spy and spend most of his time doing paperwork in London and engaging in weekly to monthly training to keep his SOE commando type skills up, he was also given the licence to terminate enemy's of not only Britain but any who would be a direct threat to the Western powers. This fictional device put Bond in a special position - acting as an SOE operative would, but in a cold war setting. Fleming use MI6 and the SOE as a basis for Bond's Service and never identified it as MI6 in order to maintain the fictionality (including the 00 section) of it. Since the SOE no longer existed after the war and since MI6 did not have a 00 section, Fleming had to make up his own version of them.
  • 00730073 COPPosts: 1,061MI6 Agent
    ... Fleming use MI6 and the SOE as a basis for Bond's Service and never identified it as MI6 in order to maintain the fictionality (including the 00 section) of it. Since the SOE no longer existed after the war and since MI6 did not have a 00 section, Fleming had to make up his own version of them.


    This is very true, but he also (as I stated earlier) identified SIS being completely different service from (the) Secret Service. Which goes quite a bit further than just "never identifying it as MI6" for the sake of fiction.
    "I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
    -Mr Arlington Beech
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