Of course, the poignant undercurrent of my above post should not deter any SF fans from taking issue with the points raised should they wish; business as usual on ajb in that respect. -{
"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."
Roger Moore 1927-2017
LiamNow where was I? Let me see...Posts: 50MI6 Agent
Why is Bond surprised that M should lie to him? All bosses do that. Surely he'd know he hadn't passed his tests, we only see him fluff every one. Jeez, is he thick.
Could the writer's intention have been Bond fails his tests on purpose? Only to drop that twist as one too many along the road? Odd indeed how his failure should be news to Bond himself.
I was walking past today actually and thought that I'll have to catch it whilst it's still on.There are two points in particular I wanted to reply to as I read them very differently to you...
Bond makes sour jibes about Eve shooting him, but I was more bothered about how he survived the shot and the fall, and anyway why did he blame her? She was just following orders, just as he was when he walked away from the dying Ronson. "They said that I should got to A&E, but M said 'No, No, No!"
I didn't read his jibes as sour at all, but playful. He's joking with her because he understands she was following orders. Compare his banter with Eve, "Oh don't worry, it was just a couple of ribs, some of the less vital organs...", with his confrontation with M, "What was it you said, 'take the bloody shot'?"
But the undercurrent to it is that he thinks Eve should have used her initiative and disobeyed orders (as he is wont to do) rather than blindly following M's misguided orders from 2000 miles away.
Lastly, the wtf moments remain. M draws herself up and admits that as he knew Silva was close to having his cover blown, she betrayed him anyway, let him be tortured in return for some agents and a smooth handover of Hong Kong. Erm... right. Nice woman. I mean, even Tony Blair would be unlikely to be caught doing something so vile towards his own men, and he is deeply hated.
But that's the whole point! M has a horrible and difficult job, frequently between and rock and hard place, having to make difficult decisions. Because the alternative to handing Silva over is to let him continue to act as a rogue agent, lose the six agents to the Chinese (presumably to be killed) and risk war between China and Britain.
Tony Blair is a good comparison here - the whole point of the committee scene is that the smug minister grilling M doesn't have to make difficult decisions like M does.
Bond's arc in the film is coming to terms with that. As he says at the end, "you did what you had to."
It's why, at the end of the film, MI6 (or the 00 Section at least) moves from it's big public building SIS on the Thames, as featured on CNN, to an anonymous old office off Whitehall. They have to go back to working in the shadows, doing the work we don't want to do. Or even acknowledge.
It is in the top 10. I think it is Craig's best effort. It is a very good movie, but not necesarry an entertaining one. It depends how I scale the Bond movies. I think eventually it will be number 8 or so.Which is still very good, since I think the first 4 Bond movies and OHMSS are in my top 5. And I dont see that ever being changed.
I was walking past today actually and thought that I'll have to catch it whilst it's still on.There are two points in particular I wanted to reply to as I read them very differently to you...
Bond makes sour jibes about Eve shooting him, but I was more bothered about how he survived the shot and the fall, and anyway why did he blame her? She was just following orders, just as he was when he walked away from the dying Ronson. "They said that I should got to A&E, but M said 'No, No, No!"
I didn't read his jibes as sour at all, but playful. He's joking with her because he understands she was following orders. Compare his banter with Eve, "Oh don't worry, it was just a couple of ribs, some of the less vital organs...", with his confrontation with M, "What was it you said, 'take the bloody shot'?"
But the undercurrent to it is that he thinks Eve should have used her initiative and disobeyed orders (as he is wont to do) rather than blindly following M's misguided orders from 2000 miles away.
Lastly, the wtf moments remain. M draws herself up and admits that as he knew Silva was close to having his cover blown, she betrayed him anyway, let him be tortured in return for some agents and a smooth handover of Hong Kong. Erm... right. Nice woman. I mean, even Tony Blair would be unlikely to be caught doing something so vile towards his own men, and he is deeply hated.
But that's the whole point! M has a horrible and difficult job, frequently between and rock and hard place, having to make difficult decisions. Because the alternative to handing Silva over is to let him continue to act as a rogue agent, lose the six agents to the Chinese (presumably to be killed) and risk war between China and Britain.
Tony Blair is a good comparison here - the whole point of the committee scene is that the smug minister grilling M doesn't have to make difficult decisions like M does.
Bond's arc in the film is coming to terms with that. As he says at the end, "you did what you had to."
It's why, at the end of the film, MI6 (or the 00 Section at least) moves from it's big public building SIS on the Thames, as featured on CNN, to an anonymous old office off Whitehall. They have to go back to working in the shadows, doing the work we don't want to do. Or even acknowledge.
Well, that's fair enough. Craig did seem to be joking with Eve, but only half joking. It doesn't seem too teasing, esp when he says 'I feel a lot safer' when she says she's doing a desk job, I mean ok it's a joke, but it's like, right, one screw up and you can be a secretary! He does go on about it.
As for M's take, well it's delivered in one brief speech and that's it. I'm really not sure from that about the whys and wherefors, it just seemed that she had behaved callously to one individual and I'm not really sure what the stakes were here.
I realise the minister is meant to be annoying, not sure why an actress of McCroy's calibre should be called upon for that brief role, but again, I just can't really see from the evidence that her condescention towards M is in anyway unjustified, esp as the attitude is shared to some extent by Mallory.
Now the hype is gone i've realised that Skyfall is probably the Craig bond movie that I will watch the least. To me it's a brilliant movie, possibly even his best, but it requires a certain mood. Casino Royale is THE craig movie, it's nearly perfect and there's slightly more entertainment factor than in Skyfall. Quantum of Solace is short and fast paced - perfect to get a quick Craig fix. Skyfall, although amazing, is an 'epic' when it comes to Bond movies. I'd have to set aside time to watch it properly and i'm more of a spontaneous type. Great movie though don't get me wrong. Craig scores 3/3 from me.
For me it beats out Casino Royale to my number 1 spot for Best Bond films, Just perfect in every way.
I never taught i see the day we'd get two Classic Bond's that could rival or even better Connery's early efforts.
Plus Ralph Fiennes as M and that ending "With Pleasure M with Pleasure" Goosebumps.
Craig has bought Bond back from the dead. He's back to the suave,cool hero Connery created with his early classics.
Plus Ralph Fiennes as M and that ending "With Pleasure M with Pleasure" Goosebumps.
Craig has bought Bond back from the dead. He's back to the suave,cool hero Connery created with his early classics.
Just hope the next director etc goes in that direction.
We have had two DC films where you think at the end that Bond is now Bond etc but the following movie had put us back to square one / false dawns etc. hopefully now with a new M this will indeed be the "established" Bond we all want
Plus Ralph Fiennes as M and that ending "With Pleasure M with Pleasure" Goosebumps.
Craig has bought Bond back from the dead. He's back to the suave,cool hero Connery created with his early classics.
Just hope the next director etc goes in that direction.
We have had two DC films where you think at the end that Bond is now Bond etc but the following movie had put us back to square one / false dawns etc. hopefully now with a new M this will indeed be the "established" Bond we all want
Hope so, just a bit pissed that it's taken three, yes three, films to get here. By the time we do it will be time for Daniel's epilogue. False Dawns indeed !
I have to admit, much as I love the gunbarrel.I do think it works far better
without it. {:)
I love the Gunbarrel but i don't get the whole "if its not at the start its not a Bond film" crap. Mendes got it right and it's far more epic at the end.
I have to admit, much as I love the gunbarrel.I do think it works far better
without it. {:)
I do not agree. What was wrong with that video is that they cropped out the corridor scene. If they had left it in, and had the gunbarrel fade into the dark corridor, it would've been better.
I love the Gunbarrel but i don't get the whole "if its not at the start its not a Bond film" crap. Mendes got it right and it's far more epic at the end.
No, Mendes didn't get it right. It's tradition. As far as I'm concerned, the gunbarrel has to be at the start. If that means altering the PTS to make it fit, so be it.
I agree it would of looked better to have the Gunbarrel fade to
reveal Bond standing at the end of the Corridor. -{ Although
on the Directors commentary Mendes does suggest the corridor
is a "Kind off " Gunbarrel. which I can also see.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I have to admit, much as I love the gunbarrel.I do think it works far better
without it. {:)
I do not agree. What was wrong with that video is that they cropped out the corridor scene. If they had left it in, and had the gunbarrel fade into the dark corridor, it would've been better.
Otherwise, THAT is how Skyfall should've started.
The opening shot of Bond in the corridor is one of the finest shots in 50 years of Bond movies. Genuinely fantastic (and, gratifyingly, was mentioned in a number of the reviews.) To sacrifice that scene and replace it with a gunbarrel just to keep a few hardcore Bond fanatics happy would be ludicrous.
The opening shot of Bond in the corridor is one of the finest shots in 50 years of Bond movies. Genuinely fantastic (and, gratifyingly, was mentioned in a number of the reviews.) To sacrifice that scene and replace it with a gunbarrel just to keep a few hardcore Bond fanatics happy would be ludicrous.
I agree that the corridor scene should be left in, because it was fantastic. But I also think that the gunbarrel should've preceded it. We should've had the gunbarrel fading into the corridor scene. I don't see why that would not have worked.
Perhaps to free up the creativity of future directors
The gunbarrel could be moved to the start of the Title
sequence.
How does having the gunbarrel at the start of the film hinder creativity in any way? Over the first 20 Bond films, the gunbarrel has proven to be very versatile; it can precede just about any imaginable opening scene.
This is where I'm torn. as I love the feeling you get in the cinema
when the music starts up and those Dots move across the screen.
On the other hand I do think the opening of QOS is very strong
cinematically ( other than the lake being at a angle ) for it to work
you needed the slow build up of the music. Bond being Fired along
the road tunnel almost as a bullet from a gun.
The opening of Skyfall is very atmospheric and once again, ( just
my opinion again, I'm no expert ) I think a big Bombastic Fanfare of
the Bond theme before it,would of taken away from the atmosphere the
director had set up.
So it's a tough one. My heart says it should be at the start But then I
can see why some directors would find it awkward to have to "shoehorn"
it in simply for Tradition.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
The opening shot of Bond in the corridor is one of the finest shots in 50 years of Bond movies. Genuinely fantastic (and, gratifyingly, was mentioned in a number of the reviews.) To sacrifice that scene and replace it with a gunbarrel just to keep a few hardcore Bond fanatics happy would be ludicrous.
I agree that the corridor scene should be left in, because it was fantastic. But I also think that the gunbarrel should've preceded it. We should've had the gunbarrel fading into the corridor scene. I don't see why that would not have worked.
Sam Mendes said "The film starts with Bond walking down a corridor towards camera, stopping and lifting a gun. And of course the gunbarrel is him walking, stopping and lifting a gun. When I put the two together, it looked ridiculous"
I haven't seen it myself (not sure if anyone's put it together on Youtube) but the explanation makes sense on paper.
This is where I'm torn. as I love the feeling you get in the cinema
when the music starts up and those Dots move across the screen.
On the other hand I do think the opening of QOS is very strong
cinematically ( other than the lake being at a angle ) for it to work
you needed the slow build up of the music. Bond being Fired along
the road tunnel almost as a bullet from a gun.
The opening of Skyfall is very atmospheric and once again, ( just
my opinion again, I'm no expert ) I think a big Bombastic Fanfare of
the Bond theme before it,would of taken away from the atmosphere the
director had set up.
So it's a tough one. My heart says it should be at the start But then I
can see why some directors would find it awkward to have to "shoehorn"
it in simply for Tradition.
I'm similarly torn because although I enjoy seeing the gunbarrel at the start of a Bond film, I really appreciate the creativity of what Mendes did with the opening sequence of Skyfall.
I would like to see it back at the beginning but I'm more concerned with what comes after the gun barrel scene when it comes to Bond movies.
Absolutely. -{
Blackleiter wrote :
I'm similarly torn because although I enjoy seeing the gunbarrel at the start of a Bond film, I really appreciate the creativity of what Mendes did with the opening sequence of Skyfall.
I loved the opening scene in Skyfall. The entire film was beautifully shot. -{
I'd hate to stifle the creativity of talented directors ( I don't include Marc Forster )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Sam Mendes said "The film starts with Bond walking down a corridor towards camera, stopping and lifting a gun. And of course the gunbarrel is him walking, stopping and lifting a gun. When I put the two together, it looked ridiculous"
I haven't seen it myself (not sure if anyone's put it together on Youtube) but the explanation makes sense on paper.
I don't agree it would look ridiculous. What it would've looked like would be the gunbarrel fading into a dark corridor with a figure cautiously walking down it. We don't actually see that it's Bond and we don't see him lifting the gun until about 10 seconds into the film.
IMHO DEFIANT 74205, It could change the mood. After the
big sound of the Bond theme. It could be a bit jarring to have
the iris open on a very quiet still scene as in Skyfall.
Now I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my thoughts.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
IMHO DEFIANT 74205, It could change the mood. After the
big sound of the Bond theme. It could be a bit jarring to have
the iris open on a very quiet still scene as in Skyfall.
Now I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my thoughts.
Well, a quiet scene after the loud fanfare of the gunbarrel has been done before: From Russia With Love and Goldfinger. Personally, I didn't think those films were poorer for it.
As I said, I think the gunbarrel sequence has proven itself to be extremely versatile over the years, with 20 Bond films opening that way. I can't think of any that stood out as being particularly out of place with respect to the PTS.
You make many points that I do agree with. I just
feel that so far the reasons given for not having it.
Bond was still forming ( QOS ) and Skyfall, Bond
was having the final touches polished up.
Luckily Skyfall ends with everthing in place for
a more Traditional Bond film next time. Fingers crossed
Gunbarrel included.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Sam Mendes said "The film starts with Bond walking down a corridor towards camera, stopping and lifting a gun. And of course the gunbarrel is him walking, stopping and lifting a gun. When I put the two together, it looked ridiculous"
I haven't seen it myself (not sure if anyone's put it together on Youtube) but the explanation makes sense on paper.
I don't agree it would look ridiculous. What it would've looked like would be the gunbarrel fading into a dark corridor with a figure cautiously walking down it. We don't actually see that it's Bond and we don't see him lifting the gun until about 10 seconds into the film.
Well, I can't argue with that DEFIANT 74205. And you're in good company because Mendes must have thought it would look fine too as he had planned it and shot it that way - he only decided it didn't work when he actually saw it edited together. He's a director with a keen understanding of the visual rhythm of film and his justification does make sense on paper. But I haven't seen it so I can't truly judge. I'm sure some creative soul will edit the two together at some point and post it on Youtube and I'll be able to see it for myself.
To be honest, I'm one of those (seemingly rare) Bond fans who doesn't really care whether it's at the beginning or at the end. I think it works just as well both ways.
Comments
Of course, the poignant undercurrent of my above post should not deter any SF fans from taking issue with the points raised should they wish; business as usual on ajb in that respect. -{
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Could the writer's intention have been Bond fails his tests on purpose? Only to drop that twist as one too many along the road? Odd indeed how his failure should be news to Bond himself.
Wilde
I was walking past today actually and thought that I'll have to catch it whilst it's still on.There are two points in particular I wanted to reply to as I read them very differently to you...
I didn't read his jibes as sour at all, but playful. He's joking with her because he understands she was following orders. Compare his banter with Eve, "Oh don't worry, it was just a couple of ribs, some of the less vital organs...", with his confrontation with M, "What was it you said, 'take the bloody shot'?"
But the undercurrent to it is that he thinks Eve should have used her initiative and disobeyed orders (as he is wont to do) rather than blindly following M's misguided orders from 2000 miles away.
But that's the whole point! M has a horrible and difficult job, frequently between and rock and hard place, having to make difficult decisions. Because the alternative to handing Silva over is to let him continue to act as a rogue agent, lose the six agents to the Chinese (presumably to be killed) and risk war between China and Britain.
Tony Blair is a good comparison here - the whole point of the committee scene is that the smug minister grilling M doesn't have to make difficult decisions like M does.
Bond's arc in the film is coming to terms with that. As he says at the end, "you did what you had to."
It's why, at the end of the film, MI6 (or the 00 Section at least) moves from it's big public building SIS on the Thames, as featured on CNN, to an anonymous old office off Whitehall. They have to go back to working in the shadows, doing the work we don't want to do. Or even acknowledge.
11- TB. 12- OP. 13- LALD. 14- TMWTGG. 15- FYEO. 16- YOLT. 17- TND. 18- QoS.
19- TWINE. 20- AVTAK. 21- MR. 22- DAF. 23- DAD.
1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore
Well, that's fair enough. Craig did seem to be joking with Eve, but only half joking. It doesn't seem too teasing, esp when he says 'I feel a lot safer' when she says she's doing a desk job, I mean ok it's a joke, but it's like, right, one screw up and you can be a secretary! He does go on about it.
As for M's take, well it's delivered in one brief speech and that's it. I'm really not sure from that about the whys and wherefors, it just seemed that she had behaved callously to one individual and I'm not really sure what the stakes were here.
I realise the minister is meant to be annoying, not sure why an actress of McCroy's calibre should be called upon for that brief role, but again, I just can't really see from the evidence that her condescention towards M is in anyway unjustified, esp as the attitude is shared to some extent by Mallory.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I never taught i see the day we'd get two Classic Bond's that could rival or even better Connery's early efforts.
Plus Ralph Fiennes as M and that ending "With Pleasure M with Pleasure" Goosebumps.
Craig has bought Bond back from the dead. He's back to the suave,cool hero Connery created with his early classics.
Just hope the next director etc goes in that direction.
We have had two DC films where you think at the end that Bond is now Bond etc but the following movie had put us back to square one / false dawns etc. hopefully now with a new M this will indeed be the "established" Bond we all want
Hope so, just a bit pissed that it's taken three, yes three, films to get here. By the time we do it will be time for Daniel's epilogue. False Dawns indeed !
how Skyfall would of looked with a Gunbarrel at the start.
http://youtu.be/f4_BOlfjaN8
I have to admit, much as I love the gunbarrel.I do think it works far better
without it. {:)
I love the Gunbarrel but i don't get the whole "if its not at the start its not a Bond film" crap. Mendes got it right and it's far more epic at the end.
http://youtu.be/62UIAOWvuxs
Thanks for posting that TP. Well done to the guy who edited it but I agree - it just doesn't work there.
11- TB. 12- OP. 13- LALD. 14- TMWTGG. 15- FYEO. 16- YOLT. 17- TND. 18- QoS.
19- TWINE. 20- AVTAK. 21- MR. 22- DAF. 23- DAD.
http://www.contactmusic.com/news/pierce-brosnan-teaming-up-with-bond-girl-kurylenko-for-new-spy-film_3623630
Pierce Brosnan Teaming Up With Bond Girl Olga Kurylenko For New Spy Film. November Man
I do not agree. What was wrong with that video is that they cropped out the corridor scene. If they had left it in, and had the gunbarrel fade into the dark corridor, it would've been better.
Otherwise, THAT is how Skyfall should've started.
No, Mendes didn't get it right. It's tradition. As far as I'm concerned, the gunbarrel has to be at the start. If that means altering the PTS to make it fit, so be it.
reveal Bond standing at the end of the Corridor. -{ Although
on the Directors commentary Mendes does suggest the corridor
is a "Kind off " Gunbarrel.
The opening shot of Bond in the corridor is one of the finest shots in 50 years of Bond movies. Genuinely fantastic (and, gratifyingly, was mentioned in a number of the reviews.) To sacrifice that scene and replace it with a gunbarrel just to keep a few hardcore Bond fanatics happy would be ludicrous.
11- TB. 12- OP. 13- LALD. 14- TMWTGG. 15- FYEO. 16- YOLT. 17- TND. 18- QoS.
19- TWINE. 20- AVTAK. 21- MR. 22- DAF. 23- DAD.
I agree that the corridor scene should be left in, because it was fantastic. But I also think that the gunbarrel should've preceded it. We should've had the gunbarrel fading into the corridor scene. I don't see why that would not have worked.
The gunbarrel could be moved to the start of the Title
sequence.
How does having the gunbarrel at the start of the film hinder creativity in any way? Over the first 20 Bond films, the gunbarrel has proven to be very versatile; it can precede just about any imaginable opening scene.
when the music starts up and those Dots move across the screen.
On the other hand I do think the opening of QOS is very strong
cinematically ( other than the lake being at a angle ) for it to work
you needed the slow build up of the music. Bond being Fired along
the road tunnel almost as a bullet from a gun.
The opening of Skyfall is very atmospheric and once again, ( just
my opinion again, I'm no expert ) I think a big Bombastic Fanfare of
the Bond theme before it,would of taken away from the atmosphere the
director had set up.
So it's a tough one. My heart says it should be at the start But then I
can see why some directors would find it awkward to have to "shoehorn"
it in simply for Tradition.
Sam Mendes said "The film starts with Bond walking down a corridor towards camera, stopping and lifting a gun. And of course the gunbarrel is him walking, stopping and lifting a gun. When I put the two together, it looked ridiculous"
I haven't seen it myself (not sure if anyone's put it together on Youtube) but the explanation makes sense on paper.
11- TB. 12- OP. 13- LALD. 14- TMWTGG. 15- FYEO. 16- YOLT. 17- TND. 18- QoS.
19- TWINE. 20- AVTAK. 21- MR. 22- DAF. 23- DAD.
Absolutely. -{
Blackleiter wrote :
I loved the opening scene in Skyfall. The entire film was beautifully shot. -{
I'd hate to stifle the creativity of talented directors ( I don't include Marc Forster
I don't agree it would look ridiculous. What it would've looked like would be the gunbarrel fading into a dark corridor with a figure cautiously walking down it. We don't actually see that it's Bond and we don't see him lifting the gun until about 10 seconds into the film.
Can you please explain to me why having the gunbarrel at the start of the film hinders creativity in any way?
big sound of the Bond theme. It could be a bit jarring to have
the iris open on a very quiet still scene as in Skyfall.
Now I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my thoughts.
Well, a quiet scene after the loud fanfare of the gunbarrel has been done before: From Russia With Love and Goldfinger. Personally, I didn't think those films were poorer for it.
As I said, I think the gunbarrel sequence has proven itself to be extremely versatile over the years, with 20 Bond films opening that way. I can't think of any that stood out as being particularly out of place with respect to the PTS.
feel that so far the reasons given for not having it.
Bond was still forming ( QOS ) and Skyfall, Bond
was having the final touches polished up.
Luckily Skyfall ends with everthing in place for
a more Traditional Bond film next time. Fingers crossed
Gunbarrel included.
Well, I can't argue with that DEFIANT 74205. And you're in good company because Mendes must have thought it would look fine too as he had planned it and shot it that way - he only decided it didn't work when he actually saw it edited together. He's a director with a keen understanding of the visual rhythm of film and his justification does make sense on paper. But I haven't seen it so I can't truly judge. I'm sure some creative soul will edit the two together at some point and post it on Youtube and I'll be able to see it for myself.
To be honest, I'm one of those (seemingly rare) Bond fans who doesn't really care whether it's at the beginning or at the end. I think it works just as well both ways.
11- TB. 12- OP. 13- LALD. 14- TMWTGG. 15- FYEO. 16- YOLT. 17- TND. 18- QoS.
19- TWINE. 20- AVTAK. 21- MR. 22- DAF. 23- DAD.