superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
edited March 2013
FOLLOW-UP QUESTION
I just came across this passage yesterday from DAF, "Bond had a natural affection for coloured people, but he reflected how lucky England was compared with America where you had to live with the colour problem from your schooldays up."
I don't understand what Fleming meant about England being "lucky" compared to America and specifically what about the "colour problem" was he talking about? The overall civil rights struggle? Segregation and the sizeable Black population in American compared to the UK? ...or with a more sinister implication, the "condition" of having to "live" alongside Black people in America?
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
Here's one way to look at it ... if Django Unchained was the exact same movie with the exact same dialogue, but it was written and directed by, say, Spike Lee would it be more acceptable? Is the issue about the frequency of the use of the "N" word, or is the issue that the director was white?
To quote from Kingsley Amis on Fleming's alleged racism-
"Some forms of prejudice are sinister, but not these. These are no more than fascinating expressions of chauvinism at once smartened up and on its last legs.... These are thin and muted bugle-calls. But that doesn't matter. You and I know that what counts is what Bond does, not what he says."
(Kingsley Amis, "The James Bond Dossier", 1965 (Jonathan Cape))
A lot of food for thought there. I get what you're saying about Tarantino, and I agree that his use of language is probably influenced by his perceived "comfort" interacting with the "soul subculture". I never really gave much thought to the prevalence of inter-racial couplings in Jackie Brown, but I think you might be on to something as it relates to Tarantino's attempt to perhaps even override the issue of the race of the characters and instead keep the focus on their personalities, resourcefulness, shortcomings, etc.
Having never been out of the U.S. (except for a couple of forays to Canada and a trip to the Bahamas), I really don't have much insight into how racial issues play out in other countries. I am curious, though, about what you mean when you say that "rights" aren't so overrated in other parts of the world as they are in the U.S. In what sense do you believe rights are "overrated"?
I wouldn't go so far as to call Tarantino a racist simply because he uses the N word in his films. As I said, the context may provide some justification, although even allowing for that I believe Tarantino goes overboard. In his interviews he asserts that he uses words the way he believes his characters would use them, not as an endorsement of their use of the words, but as a reflection of the personalities and sensibilities of those characters. He also points out that the Black characters he features are often more well-rounded, resourceful and admirable than many of the white characters, and that he has the utmost respect for the characters and the actors who portray them. One can choose whether or not to believe him, but Tarantino has addressed the charges of racism many times, and he is vehement about the fact that he is getting a bum rap when people accuse him of being a racist.
That's quite shocking regrading Tarantino's use of the N-word there. He's more of a racist than Fleming then, who only used the word and chapter title to refer to a work of the same name by Carl Van Vechten.
My son is a big Tarantino fan but I like Jackie Brown more than he does (the Tarantino film that sat with me the best, actually), " ...across 110th street... “Yes, it's hard to tell really what Tarantino is, but it boils down to asking if he's malicious in his racism ( lol, am I implying that there's a "good" racism?) I think he feels a lot of personal affinity with minorities, particularly the "soul" sub-culture and it's interesting to note how in Jackie Brown there's the portrayal of at least 3 mixed couples or near-coupling, Sam Jackson and Bridget Fonda, Robert DeNiro and the black receptionist from the TV show, Becker and of course Mike Cherry and Jackie Brown, a message of reunification between the races? Then the whole underlying message of the film, empowerment for a down-and-out, past her prime female who is black, statistically a lethal, triple-whammy in our socio-economic environment, who used her wits instead of sex or her beauty to transcend beyond her troubles.
When I was younger, I ran with different crowds and some groups particularly having the urban deviant underpinnings portrayed in Tarantino's movies, with people of different races and because we all were bonded in the "brotherhood of deviance" if you can call it that, racial slurs were tossed at each other and all accepted it as nothing by merit of said unspoken bond. That's why I laugh myself silly when watching Tarantino movies with the dialogue, partly because of course even in his period movies, you can hear Tarantino speaking through his characters and I know where he's coming from.
Again about my younger days, thrown into the mix were friends of different sexual preferences from both genders and frequenting establishments of theirs, there was also a lot of the throwing around of gay slurs; the funny thing was that some of my friends' militant gay acquaintances criticized them for keeping mixed company! I have a feeling that it's mostly in America where there is so much taken in extremes, where people have become too PC and sensitive over non-essentials whereas people from other parts of the world have told me how relaxed their cultures are with different races, etc. even though the racial integration and sexual preferences are not as commonplace compared to the USA, a curious paradox in parts of the world where "rights" aren't so over-rated.
There's a very funny youtube clip - assuming it's still there - of Chris Rock explaining the very very rare context in which a white guy is able to use the 'n' word.
And of course, it explains the disappointment that many in the US feel with Barack Obama; they were hoping they'd get their first President who could throw around the n word with impunity... )
As for QT's character in PF, well. It's subtext, to see how far you can go. EG: a white guy saying 'nigger' is bang out of line. But here, Jules takes no offence at all. And I don't think it's cos he has to eat crow to get out of a dodgy situation, it's just there's a natural affinity here, he means it don't mean nothing. So QT has written a piece to show the one rare moment where a white guy can use that word, and all is cool. Maybe it would have been better if the original actor (name escapes me, Trees Lounge Reservoir Dogs guy) had played it though, it wouldn't seem like Quentin lording it over taking director's privilge.
Dunno why black guys saying n would be a problem for BlackLeiter, unless it's seen that they're lowering the tone or something. They can use it cos only they can. Reminds me of that Richard Pryor sketch about why do blacks always grab their crotch 'Cos you took every other goddam thing, white boy!'
My feeling has always been that "nigger" is an ugly, evil word, and I don't like hearing it no matter who says it. Although I understand that it isn't always meant to be taken in a derrogatory way, particularly when Black folks say it, there is too much pain associated with the word for me to feel comfortable with it. Even Richard Pryor, who I consider to be one of the true comic geniuses of all time, swore off using that word when he returned from a trip to Africa. I realize my opinion about this subject isn't shared by everyopne, but there it is.
Dunno why black guys saying n would be a problem for BlackLeiter, unless it's seen that they're lowering the tone or something. They can use it cos only they can. Reminds me of that Richard Pryor sketch about why do blacks always grab their crotch 'Cos you took every other goddam thing, white boy!'
"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
A lot of food for thought there. I get what you're saying about Tarantino, and I agree that his use of language is probably influenced by his perceived "comfort" interacting with the "soul subculture". I never really gave much thought to the prevalence of inter-racial couplings in Jackie Brown, but I think you might be on to something as it relates to Tarantino's attempt to perhaps even override the issue of the race of the characters and instead keep the focus on their personalities, resourcefulness, shortcomings, etc.
Having never been out of the U.S. (except for a couple of forays to Canada and a trip to the Bahamas), I really don't have much insight into how racial issues play out in other countries. I am curious, though, about what you mean when you say that "rights" aren't so overrated in other parts of the world as they are in the U.S. In what sense do you believe rights are "overrated"?
I wouldn't go so far as to call Tarantino a racist simply because he uses the N word in his films. As I said, the context may provide some justification, although even allowing for that I believe Tarantino goes overboard. In his interviews he asserts that he uses words the way he believes his characters would use them, not as an endorsement of their use of the words, but as a reflection of the personalities and sensibilities of those characters. He also points out that the Black characters he features are often more well-rounded, resourceful and admirable than many of the white characters, and that he has the utmost respect for the characters and the actors who portray them. One can choose whether or not to believe him, but Tarantino has addressed the charges of racism many times, and he is vehement about the fact that he is getting a bum rap when people accuse him of being a racist.
My son is a big Tarantino fan but I like Jackie Brown more than he does (the Tarantino film that sat with me the best, actually), " ...across 110th street... “Yes, it's hard to tell really what Tarantino is, but it boils down to asking if he's malicious in his racism ( lol, am I implying that there's a "good" racism?) I think he feels a lot of personal affinity with minorities, particularly the "soul" sub-culture and it's interesting to note how in Jackie Brown there's the portrayal of at least 3 mixed couples or near-coupling, Sam Jackson and Bridget Fonda, Robert DeNiro and the black receptionist from the TV show, Becker and of course Mike Cherry and Jackie Brown, a message of reunification between the races? Then the whole underlying message of the film, empowerment for a down-and-out, past her prime female who is black, statistically a lethal, triple-whammy in our socio-economic environment, who used her wits instead of sex or her beauty to transcend beyond her troubles.
When I was younger, I ran with different crowds and some groups particularly having the urban deviant underpinnings portrayed in Tarantino's movies, with people of different races and because we all were bonded in the "brotherhood of deviance" if you can call it that, racial slurs were tossed at each other and all accepted it as nothing by merit of said unspoken bond. That's why I laugh myself silly when watching Tarantino movies with the dialogue, partly because of course even in his period movies, you can hear Tarantino speaking through his characters and I know where he's coming from.
Again about my younger days, thrown into the mix were friends of different sexual preferences from both genders and frequenting establishments of theirs, there was also a lot of the throwing around of gay slurs; the funny thing was that some of my friends' militant gay acquaintances criticized them for keeping mixed company! I have a feeling that it's mostly in America where there is so much taken in extremes, where people have become too PC and sensitive over non-essentials whereas people from other parts of the world have told me how relaxed their cultures are with different races, etc. even though the racial integration and sexual preferences are not as commonplace compared to the USA, a curious paradox in parts of the world where "rights" aren't so over-rated.
Here in the California, someone gets a whiff of cigarette smoke in a public park and they all of a sudden get flared hemroids and run for a cop...I've seen near collisions with someone willing to ram their vehicle into someone violating their right-of-way...I've seen endless public tirades in stores for people not getting the service they're entitled to...and what miffs me off and violates my (sense of) right (and wrong) ) ...are people of all walks of life who will all the more slow down crossing the crosswalk and inconveniencing others...because it's their right. People I know who've lived abroad where their race stood out and some who are gay have shared with me how in other countries, proper and due recognition of status is really secondary if anything and they just go about their business and happily live out their lives their way, not caring what other people think; with that though, I wouldn't know first hand, but only what's been shared in conversations similar to ours right now.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
A lot of food for thought there. I get what you're saying about Tarantino, and I agree that his use of language is probably influenced by his perceived "comfort" interacting with the "soul subculture". I never really gave much thought to the prevalence of inter-racial couplings in Jackie Brown, but I think you might be on to something as it relates to Tarantino's attempt to perhaps even override the issue of the race of the characters and instead keep the focus on their personalities, resourcefulness, shortcomings, etc.
Having never been out of the U.S. (except for a couple of forays to Canada and a trip to the Bahamas), I really don't have much insight into how racial issues play out in other countries. I am curious, though, about what you mean when you say that "rights" aren't so overrated in other parts of the world as they are in the U.S. In what sense do you believe rights are "overrated"?
My son is a big Tarantino fan but I like Jackie Brown more than he does (the Tarantino film that sat with me the best, actually), " ...across 110th street... “Yes, it's hard to tell really what Tarantino is, but it boils down to asking if he's malicious in his racism ( lol, am I implying that there's a "good" racism?) I think he feels a lot of personal affinity with minorities, particularly the "soul" sub-culture and it's interesting to note how in Jackie Brown there's the portrayal of at least 3 mixed couples or near-coupling, Sam Jackson and Bridget Fonda, Robert DeNiro and the black receptionist from the TV show, Becker and of course Mike Cherry and Jackie Brown, a message of reunification between the races? Then the whole underlying message of the film, empowerment for a down-and-out, past her prime female who is black, statistically a lethal, triple-whammy in our socio-economic environment, who used her wits instead of sex or her beauty to transcend beyond her troubles.
When I was younger, I ran with different crowds and some groups particularly having the urban deviant underpinnings portrayed in Tarantino's movies, with people of different races and because we all were bonded in the "brotherhood of deviance" if you can call it that, racial slurs were tossed at each other and all accepted it as nothing by merit of said unspoken bond. That's why I laugh myself silly when watching Tarantino movies with the dialogue, partly because of course even in his period movies, you can hear Tarantino speaking through his characters and I know where he's coming from.
Again about my younger days, thrown into the mix were friends of different sexual preferences from both genders and frequenting establishments of theirs, there was also a lot of the throwing around of gay slurs; the funny thing was that some of my friends' militant gay acquaintances criticized them for keeping mixed company! I have a feeling that it's mostly in America where there is so much taken in extremes, where people have become too PC and sensitive over non-essentials whereas people from other parts of the world have told me how relaxed their cultures are with different races, etc. even though the racial integration and sexual preferences are not as commonplace compared to the USA, a curious paradox in parts of the world where "rights" aren't so over-rated.
Here in the California, someone gets a whiff of cigarette smoke in a public park and they all of a sudden get flared hemroids and run for a cop...I've seen near collisions with someone willing to ram their vehicle into someone violating their right-of-way...I've seen endless public tirades in stores for people not getting the service they're entitled to...and what miffs me off and violates my (sense of) right (and wrong) ) ...are people of all walks of life who will all the more slow down crossing the crosswalk and inconveniencing others...because it's their right. People I know who've lived abroad where their race stood out and some who are gay have shared with me how in other countries, proper and due recognition of status is really secondary if anything and they just go about their business and happily live out their lives their way, not caring what other people think; with that though, I wouldn't know first hand, but only what's been shared in conversations similar to ours right now.
I'm just reading LALD for the very first time and there are some very uncomfortable lines of dialogue. Specifially the part where Solitaire doesn't feel remorse for sending people to their death because "very few of them were white". Hard to believe people used to think like this back then.
1: Casino Royale 2: Goldeneye 3: Skyfall 4: Octopussy 5: Goldfinger 6: Tomorrow Never Dies 7: The World Is Not Enough 8: The Living Daylights 9: From Russia With Love 10: The Spy Who Loved Me
You might be surprised to discover how many people still think that way, at least here in the U.S. I think we are living in very strange times in this country where, on the one hand we elect, and then re-elect a Black man as President, while at the same time it appears that certain people are more willing than ever to spew racist garbage on a regular basis.
I'm just reading LALD for the very first time and there are some very uncomfortable lines of dialogue. Specifially the part where Solitaire doesn't feel remorse for sending people to their death because "very few of them were white". Hard to believe people used to think like this back then.
You might be surprised to discover how many people still think that way, at least here in the U.S. I think we are living in very strange times in this country where, on the one hand we elect, and then re-elect a Black man as President, while at the same time it appears that certain people are more willing than ever to spew racist garbage on a regular basis.
I'm just reading LALD for the very first time and there are some very uncomfortable lines of dialogue. Specifially the part where Solitaire doesn't feel remorse for sending people to their death because "very few of them were white". Hard to believe people used to think like this back then.
Wow..amen to that. My best friend is black, and neither of us can get our head around how
so many people in this country in this century still think and behave as if we were living in the
19th century. I think you're being conservative when you said certain people appear to spew racist garbage - from our view, it's more like millions do and it's not only they appear to do it...they actual do it. I lived overseas (and that was it the '70's) and never saw this hate and fear as it is here. I realize they have a similar hatred over there now but is directed at displaced foreigners or immigrants that emigrate to try and improve their lot. Just as in the past they believe they're way of life is being challenged and many just cant handle it. When I was young I really hoped we would have gotten past this by now - it's certainly makes me ashamed of being a homo sapien at times.
LiamNow where was I? Let me see...Posts: 50MI6 Agent
You might be surprised to discover how many people still think that way, at least here in the U.S. I think we are living in very strange times in this country where, on the one hand we elect, and then re-elect a Black man as President, while at the same time it appears that certain people are more willing than ever to spew racist garbage on a regular basis.
I'm just reading LALD for the very first time and there are some very uncomfortable lines of dialogue. Specifially the part where Solitaire doesn't feel remorse for sending people to their death because "very few of them were white". Hard to believe people used to think like this back then.
Wow..amen to that. My best friend is black, and neither of us can get our head around how
so many people in this country in this century still think and behave as if we were living in the
19th century. I think you're being conservative when you said certain people appear to spew racist garbage - from our view, it's more like millions do and it's not only they appear to do it...they actual do it. I lived overseas (and that was it the '70's) and never saw this hate and fear as it is here. I realize they have a similar hatred over there now but is directed at displaced foreigners or immigrants that emigrate to try and improve their lot. Just as in the past they believe they're way of life is being challenged and many just cant handle it. When I was young I really hoped we would have gotten past this by now - it's certainly makes me ashamed of being a homo sapien at times.
I think the Internet is what gives this racist scum much more profile than they actually deserve. It's a vocal minority, nothing more. Foaming, rabid, hateful - yes, but still a minority. They organise themselves, and they network with like-minded creeps, true. But they still are merely a tiny appendage of society, bred of equal parts stupidity, ignorance and hate. As long as we remain alert they can't ever become more.
I just came across this passage yesterday from DAF, "Bond had a natural affection for coloured people, but he reflected how lucky England was compared with America where you had to live with the colour problem from your schooldays up."
I don't understand what Fleming meant about England being "lucky" compared to America and specifically what about the "colour problem" was he talking about? The overall civil rights struggle? Segregation and the sizeable Black population in American compared to the UK? ...or with a more sinister implication, the "condition" of having to "live" alongside Black people in America?
When I read that (and upon re-reading) I personally thought Fleming was referring to the whole history of slavery and racism here. Whereas in England slavery was never institutionalized (except in the English colonies - the US included) because there was an ample supply of poor people already to perform manual labor and because slavery was made illegal long before it was in the US. The slaves who were brought to England usually worked as indoor domestic servants and after slavery was abolished then became paid workers. Fleming grew up at a time when there was a very small minority of black citizens in England and though they were certainly considered equals as their fellow citizens -they were most often treated with less animosity than was given towards the Irish, Scots or Welsh, where of course the English had a LOT of historical animosity built up over the centuries. Compare this to the much longer history of institutional slavery - one in which the US ended up in a Civil War over and left so much division and hostility in it's society that it exists still today at ridiculous levels. I believe this was what Fleming was referring to with the "coloured problem". It wasn't that blacks existing in the US were a problem - it was that the whole problem of the whole history of their enslavement and subsequent struggle in the US and of the social injustices it had created that the nation had to deal with.
I think you're being conservative when you said certain people appear to spew racist garbage - from our view, it's more like millions do and it's not only they appear to do it...they actual do it.
I just came across this passage yesterday from DAF, "Bond had a natural affection for coloured people, but he reflected how lucky England was compared with America where you had to live with the colour problem from your schooldays up."
I don't understand what Fleming meant about England being "lucky" compared to America and specifically what about the "colour problem" was he talking about? The overall civil rights struggle? Segregation and the sizeable Black population in American compared to the UK? ...or with a more sinister implication, the "condition" of having to "live" alongside Black people in America?
When I read that (and upon re-reading) I personally thought Fleming was referring to the whole history of slavery and racism in America and that his "natural affection" (and therefore Bonds) came from his visits to Jamaica and the relationships he developed with the people there. Whereas in England slavery was never institutionalized (except in the English colonies - the US included) because there was an ample supply of poor people already to perform manual labor and because slavery was made illegal long before it was in the US. The slaves who were brought to England usually worked as indoor domestic servants and after slavery was abolished then became paid workers. Fleming grew up at a time when there was a very small minority of black citizens in England and though they were certainly not considered equals as their fellow citizens -they were most often treated with less animosity than was given towards the Irish, Scots or Welsh, where of course the English had a LOT of historical animosity built up over the centuries. Compare this to the much longer history of institutional slavery - one in which the US ended up in a Civil War over and left so much division and hostility in it's society that it exists still today at ridiculous levels. I believe this was what Fleming was referring to with the "coloured problem". It wasn't that blacks existing in the US were a problem - it was that the whole problem of the whole history of their enslavement and subsequent struggle in the US and of the social injustices it had created that the nation had to deal with. That's why he believed England was lucky in that respect - it never had to deal with slavery to that extent or for that long. However, it was certainly not lucky when it came to the way the empire itself treated the natives of the countries that came under it's rule. The whole issue of being "lucky" the way Fleming saw it was that in as far as how he grew up, those problems were for the most part problems that exited overseas and therefore outside England itself and his world. Though with television and jet travel the problems were getting closer ever day, they were still things that someone like him only read about and never had to deal first hand with at that time.
I agree that the internet certainly makes it easier for these morons to get attention for their nonsense. Plus racists are generally cowards, as well as idiots, so it helps that they are able to hide by posting things anonymously. As to whether this group is merely a very small, but vocal minority, I can only hope that you're right.
You might be surprised to discover how many people still think that way, at least here in the U.S. I think we are living in very strange times in this country where, on the one hand we elect, and then re-elect a Black man as President, while at the same time it appears that certain people are more willing than ever to spew racist garbage on a regular basis.
Wow..amen to that. My best friend is black, and neither of us can get our head around how
so many people in this country in this century still think and behave as if we were living in the
19th century. I think you're being conservative when you said certain people appear to spew racist garbage - from our view, it's more like millions do and it's not only they appear to do it...they actual do it. I lived overseas (and that was it the '70's) and never saw this hate and fear as it is here. I realize they have a similar hatred over there now but is directed at displaced foreigners or immigrants that emigrate to try and improve their lot. Just as in the past they believe they're way of life is being challenged and many just cant handle it. When I was young I really hoped we would have gotten past this by now - it's certainly makes me ashamed of being a homo sapien at times.
I think the Internet is what gives this racist scum much more profile than they actually deserve. It's a vocal minority, nothing more. Foaming, rabid, hateful - yes, but still a minority. They organise themselves, and they network with like-minded creeps, true. But they still are merely a tiny appendage of society, bred of equal parts stupidity, ignorance and hate. As long as we remain alert they can't ever become more.
I just came across this passage yesterday from DAF, "Bond had a natural affection for coloured people, but he reflected how lucky England was compared with America where you had to live with the colour problem from your schooldays up."
I don't understand what Fleming meant about England being "lucky" compared to America and specifically what about the "colour problem" was he talking about? The overall civil rights struggle? Segregation and the sizeable Black population in American compared to the UK? ...or with a more sinister implication, the "condition" of having to "live" alongside Black people in America?
When I read that (and upon re-reading) I personally thought Fleming was referring to the whole history of slavery and racism in America and that his "natural affection" (and therefore Bonds) came from his visits to Jamaica and the relationships he developed with the people there. Whereas in England slavery was never institutionalized (except in the English colonies - the US included) because there was an ample supply of poor people already to perform manual labor and because slavery was made illegal long before it was in the US. The slaves who were brought to England usually worked as indoor domestic servants and after slavery was abolished then became paid workers. Fleming grew up at a time when there was a very small minority of black citizens in England and though they were certainly not considered equals as their fellow citizens -they were most often treated with less animosity than was given towards the Irish, Scots or Welsh, where of course the English had a LOT of historical animosity built up over the centuries. Compare this to the much longer history of institutional slavery - one in which the US ended up in a Civil War over and left so much division and hostility in it's society that it exists still today at ridiculous levels. I believe this was what Fleming was referring to with the "coloured problem". It wasn't that blacks existing in the US were a problem - it was that the whole problem of the whole history of their enslavement and subsequent struggle in the US and of the social injustices it had created that the nation had to deal with. That's why he believed England was lucky in that respect - it never had to deal with slavery to that extent or for that long. However, it was certainly not lucky when it came to the way the empire itself treated the natives of the countries that came under it's rule. The whole issue of being "lucky" the way Fleming saw it was that in as far as how he grew up, those problems were for the most part problems that exited overseas and therefore outside England itself and his world. Though with television and jet travel the problems were getting closer ever day, they were still things that someone like him only read about and never had to deal first hand with at that time.
I just read Live and Let Die for the first time with the expectation that there would be a lot of controversial racist material, but in my mind there isn't. Mr Big, the major villain, is portrayed as an intelligent and resourceful man who is very capable of achieving what he wants. The network of people he has established around the US is a good example of this. Of course, there is some black slavery in the novel and Fleming uses the N word often, but this was typical of the time.
As for the way he portrayed how the African American's spoke, I don't consider this offensive. In fact, it would be applauded by modern literary writers for creating a sense of authenticity in the characters, especially since no two characters speak the same way
From a modern perspective, some of the things he writes will come off a bit shocking and potentially "racist." You've got to judge him as a product of his time. A lot of what is written isn't even racist, as that term is too loosely used in modern society but rather not politically correct.
I actually get quite a laugh reading some of his stuff. I admit that I'm not a sensitive person at all and that certain people I know wouldn't be as understanding.
Comments
I just came across this passage yesterday from DAF, "Bond had a natural affection for coloured people, but he reflected how lucky England was compared with America where you had to live with the colour problem from your schooldays up."
I don't understand what Fleming meant about England being "lucky" compared to America and specifically what about the "colour problem" was he talking about? The overall civil rights struggle? Segregation and the sizeable Black population in American compared to the UK? ...or with a more sinister implication, the "condition" of having to "live" alongside Black people in America?
Here's one way to look at it ... if Django Unchained was the exact same movie with the exact same dialogue, but it was written and directed by, say, Spike Lee would it be more acceptable? Is the issue about the frequency of the use of the "N" word, or is the issue that the director was white?
"Some forms of prejudice are sinister, but not these. These are no more than fascinating expressions of chauvinism at once smartened up and on its last legs.... These are thin and muted bugle-calls. But that doesn't matter. You and I know that what counts is what Bond does, not what he says."
(Kingsley Amis, "The James Bond Dossier", 1965 (Jonathan Cape))
Having never been out of the U.S. (except for a couple of forays to Canada and a trip to the Bahamas), I really don't have much insight into how racial issues play out in other countries. I am curious, though, about what you mean when you say that "rights" aren't so overrated in other parts of the world as they are in the U.S. In what sense do you believe rights are "overrated"?
And of course, it explains the disappointment that many in the US feel with Barack Obama; they were hoping they'd get their first President who could throw around the n word with impunity...
As for QT's character in PF, well. It's subtext, to see how far you can go. EG: a white guy saying 'nigger' is bang out of line. But here, Jules takes no offence at all. And I don't think it's cos he has to eat crow to get out of a dodgy situation, it's just there's a natural affinity here, he means it don't mean nothing. So QT has written a piece to show the one rare moment where a white guy can use that word, and all is cool. Maybe it would have been better if the original actor (name escapes me, Trees Lounge Reservoir Dogs guy) had played it though, it wouldn't seem like Quentin lording it over taking director's privilge.
Dunno why black guys saying n would be a problem for BlackLeiter, unless it's seen that they're lowering the tone or something. They can use it cos only they can. Reminds me of that Richard Pryor sketch about why do blacks always grab their crotch 'Cos you took every other goddam thing, white boy!'
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Here in the California, someone gets a whiff of cigarette smoke in a public park and they all of a sudden get flared hemroids and run for a cop...I've seen near collisions with someone willing to ram their vehicle into someone violating their right-of-way...I've seen endless public tirades in stores for people not getting the service they're entitled to...and what miffs me off and violates my (sense of) right (and wrong)
Wow..amen to that. My best friend is black, and neither of us can get our head around how
so many people in this country in this century still think and behave as if we were living in the
19th century. I think you're being conservative when you said certain people appear to spew racist garbage - from our view, it's more like millions do and it's not only they appear to do it...they actual do it. I lived overseas (and that was it the '70's) and never saw this hate and fear as it is here. I realize they have a similar hatred over there now but is directed at displaced foreigners or immigrants that emigrate to try and improve their lot. Just as in the past they believe they're way of life is being challenged and many just cant handle it. When I was young I really hoped we would have gotten past this by now - it's certainly makes me ashamed of being a homo sapien at times.
I think the Internet is what gives this racist scum much more profile than they actually deserve. It's a vocal minority, nothing more. Foaming, rabid, hateful - yes, but still a minority. They organise themselves, and they network with like-minded creeps, true. But they still are merely a tiny appendage of society, bred of equal parts stupidity, ignorance and hate. As long as we remain alert they can't ever become more.
Which is the best revenge on these guys.
Wilde
When I read that (and upon re-reading) I personally thought Fleming was referring to the whole history of slavery and racism here. Whereas in England slavery was never institutionalized (except in the English colonies - the US included) because there was an ample supply of poor people already to perform manual labor and because slavery was made illegal long before it was in the US. The slaves who were brought to England usually worked as indoor domestic servants and after slavery was abolished then became paid workers. Fleming grew up at a time when there was a very small minority of black citizens in England and though they were certainly considered equals as their fellow citizens -they were most often treated with less animosity than was given towards the Irish, Scots or Welsh, where of course the English had a LOT of historical animosity built up over the centuries. Compare this to the much longer history of institutional slavery - one in which the US ended up in a Civil War over and left so much division and hostility in it's society that it exists still today at ridiculous levels. I believe this was what Fleming was referring to with the "coloured problem". It wasn't that blacks existing in the US were a problem - it was that the whole problem of the whole history of their enslavement and subsequent struggle in the US and of the social injustices it had created that the nation had to deal with.
I don't doubt it.
When I read that (and upon re-reading) I personally thought Fleming was referring to the whole history of slavery and racism in America and that his "natural affection" (and therefore Bonds) came from his visits to Jamaica and the relationships he developed with the people there. Whereas in England slavery was never institutionalized (except in the English colonies - the US included) because there was an ample supply of poor people already to perform manual labor and because slavery was made illegal long before it was in the US. The slaves who were brought to England usually worked as indoor domestic servants and after slavery was abolished then became paid workers. Fleming grew up at a time when there was a very small minority of black citizens in England and though they were certainly not considered equals as their fellow citizens -they were most often treated with less animosity than was given towards the Irish, Scots or Welsh, where of course the English had a LOT of historical animosity built up over the centuries. Compare this to the much longer history of institutional slavery - one in which the US ended up in a Civil War over and left so much division and hostility in it's society that it exists still today at ridiculous levels. I believe this was what Fleming was referring to with the "coloured problem". It wasn't that blacks existing in the US were a problem - it was that the whole problem of the whole history of their enslavement and subsequent struggle in the US and of the social injustices it had created that the nation had to deal with. That's why he believed England was lucky in that respect - it never had to deal with slavery to that extent or for that long. However, it was certainly not lucky when it came to the way the empire itself treated the natives of the countries that came under it's rule. The whole issue of being "lucky" the way Fleming saw it was that in as far as how he grew up, those problems were for the most part problems that exited overseas and therefore outside England itself and his world. Though with television and jet travel the problems were getting closer ever day, they were still things that someone like him only read about and never had to deal first hand with at that time.
As for the way he portrayed how the African American's spoke, I don't consider this offensive. In fact, it would be applauded by modern literary writers for creating a sense of authenticity in the characters, especially since no two characters speak the same way
8. TMwtGG 9. AVtaK 10. TSWLM 11. SF 12. LtK 13. TND 14. YOLT
15. NTtD 16. MR 17. LaLD 18. GF 19. SP 20. DN 21. TB
22. TWiNE 23. DAD 24. QoS 25. DaF
I actually get quite a laugh reading some of his stuff. I admit that I'm not a sensitive person at all and that certain people I know wouldn't be as understanding.
Feel free to introduce yourself at https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/34154/welcome-comings-goings/page/77/
After all I'm a live action version of him.
I've been told the same