"And I don't believe his performances in YOLT and DAF are as lackluster as many others seem to believe."
I don't find them lackluster, per se. I mean, Connery never gave a terrible Bond performance. He just doesn't seem to be enjoying himself as much. There's a marked difference between Thunderball and DAF, for example. Connery's living it up in Thunderball, and he's just not living it up as much in DAF.
However, I do agree I think OHMSS would have been quite good with Connery as Bond. I don't have a particular malice against Lazenby, but he's admittedly wooden in his line readings, and let's be honest, it's a highly technical and even emotional film for even an experienced actor, much less one who's never been in a feature film before.
"I've had a few...Optional extras installed."
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
On Connery continuing on after DAF, what if we look at it this way? Making an assumption from a "Connery IS James Bond" position and having to settle expectations when viewing first Lazenby, then Moore's version ...and considering that Connery is a year younger than Moore and we still somehow stomached Moore in his last outing, would it have been a net improvement for our experience if Connery had continued up to AVTAK?!? He would have been just a bit older when he did NSNA and for some of us that came off okay )
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
would it have been a net improvement for our experience if Connery had continued up to AVTAK?!?
Yes, I think it would have been an improvement, but still not a particularly good idea. Because I enjoyed Connery's Bond so much, I would hate for him to have worn out his welcome the way Roger Moore did. (Although I don't agree, many believe Connery actually did just that by returning in DAF!)
Personally, I wish Dalton had agreed to play Bond the first time it was offered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Dalton offered Bond after Lazenby turned down a second go? or was it after DAF? I can't remember. Can you imagine how great TSWLM or FYEO would have been? Maybe BL would have even enjoyed AVTAK! )
The only problem is that Dalton's portrayal, while brilliant, might have been forced into the tongue-in-cheek, campy stuff that Moore did. One shudders at the thought...
I've heard conflicting stories. One that he was offered the role, and turned it down, and the other that they asked him if he would be interested, and turned it down. I agree though, I think Roger Moore is great, but I'd have welcomed a Dalton Bond series up to the 90s, if he'd decided to do it that far.
I think his more serious portrayal of Bond would have been much better welcomed by audiences if he'd Followed Connery's Bond. Connery had some tongue-in-cheek moments, and sometimes he let the audience know he was in on the joke, but Moore sometimes had a tendency to wink at the camera a little too much. Connery was in on the joke, but played it as though it was still possible, whereas Moore played a version of Bond that was larger-than-life. Bond is larger than life, but he still needs to be grounded in reality.
Dalton can do humor. I've seen it. His TLD one-liners aren't as in your face as Roger Moore's, but he delivers them well enough. It sometimes feels as though they were so desperate to get back to the realistic Bond that they overcompensated by making Dalton ultra-ruthless. I love the portrayal, don't get me wrong, I'd rather have too ruthless than not-ruthless enough, but completely going the polar opposite of Moore hurt Dalton, and even now, with Daniel Craig getting praise for playing Bond similarly to the way Dalton did, Dalton still gets slighted in numerous polls or blamed for "Killing the franchise." Both assessments are, IMO, totally wrong.
Personally, I wish Dalton had agreed to play Bond the first time it was offered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Dalton offered Bond after Lazenby turned down a second go? or was it after DAF? I can't remember. Can you imagine how great TSWLM or FYEO would have been? Maybe BL would have even enjoyed AVTAK! )
The only problem is that Dalton's portrayal, while brilliant, might have been forced into the tongue-in-cheek, campy stuff that Moore did. One shudders at the thought...
I've heard conflicting stories. One that he was offered the role, and turned it down, and the other that they asked him if he would be interested, and turned it down. I agree though, I think Roger Moore is great, but I'd have welcomed a Dalton Bond series up to the 90s, if he'd decided to do it that far.
I think his more serious portrayal of Bond would have been much better welcomed by audiences if he'd Followed Connery's Bond. Connery had some tongue-in-cheek moments, and sometimes he let the audience know he was in on the joke, but Moore sometimes had a tendency to wink at the camera a little too much. Connery was in on the joke, but played it as though it was still possible, whereas Moore played a version of Bond that was larger-than-life. Bond is larger than life, but he still needs to be grounded in reality.
Dalton can do humor. I've seen it. His TLD one-liners aren't as in your face as Roger Moore's, but he delivers them well enough. It sometimes feels as though they were so desperate to get back to the realistic Bond that they overcompensated by making Dalton ultra-ruthless. I love the portrayal, don't get me wrong, I'd rather have too ruthless than not-ruthless enough, but completely going the polar opposite of Moore hurt Dalton, and even now, with Daniel Craig getting praise for playing Bond similarly to the way Dalton did, Dalton still gets slighted in numerous polls or blamed for "Killing the franchise." Both assessments are, IMO, totally wrong.
Personally, I wish Dalton had agreed to play Bond the first time it was offered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Dalton offered Bond after Lazenby turned down a second go? or was it after DAF? I can't remember. Can you imagine how great TSWLM or FYEO would have been? Maybe BL would have even enjoyed AVTAK! )
The only problem is that Dalton's portrayal, while brilliant, might have been forced into the tongue-in-cheek, campy stuff that Moore did. One shudders at the thought...
I've heard conflicting stories. One that he was offered the role, and turned it down, and the other that they asked him if he would be interested, and turned it down. I agree though, I think Roger Moore is great, but I'd have welcomed a Dalton Bond series up to the 90s, if he'd decided to do it that far.
I think his more serious portrayal of Bond would have been much better welcomed by audiences if he'd Followed Connery's Bond. Connery had some tongue-in-cheek moments, and sometimes he let the audience know he was in on the joke, but Moore sometimes had a tendency to wink at the camera a little too much. Connery was in on the joke, but played it as though it was still possible, whereas Moore played a version of Bond that was larger-than-life. Bond is larger than life, but he still needs to be grounded in reality.
Dalton can do humor. I've seen it. His TLD one-liners aren't as in your face as Roger Moore's, but he delivers them well enough. It sometimes feels as though they were so desperate to get back to the realistic Bond that they overcompensated by making Dalton ultra-ruthless. I love the portrayal, don't get me wrong, I'd rather have too ruthless than not-ruthless enough, but completely going the polar opposite of Moore hurt Dalton, and even now, with Daniel Craig getting praise for playing Bond similarly to the way Dalton did, Dalton still gets slighted in numerous polls or blamed for "Killing the franchise." Both assessments are, IMO, totally wrong.
Personally, I wish Dalton had agreed to play Bond the first time it was offered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Dalton offered Bond after Lazenby turned down a second go? or was it after DAF? I can't remember. Can you imagine how great TSWLM or FYEO would have been? Maybe BL would have even enjoyed AVTAK! )
The only problem is that Dalton's portrayal, while brilliant, might have been forced into the tongue-in-cheek, campy stuff that Moore did. One shudders at the thought...
I agree as well with most of your points, Nick37. But, would you say that Moore's interpretation was a product of Moore? Or was it Moore doing the best he could with his scripts? One could argue that MGM was so leery of following Connery to closely that they wanted whoever followed him to be the campy Bond. That's why I say, while I would have loved to have seen Dalton get all 7 of Moore's films, I fear he would have been asked to do it in the campy, tongue-in-cheek style that Moore did. And that, IMO, would have been really bad.
I thoroughly enjoy Dalton's Bond, his balance with the character is perfect. Ruthless, tough, focused, resourceful, and cold. Willing to set aside personal feelings and reservations to get the job done. But not mindless, not a bulldozer, and able to think beyond his immediate target. Even showing his feelings, such as at the end of TLD "You didn't think I'd miss this performance, did you?". He really cared for Kara, and could show that without compromising the character.
I'm grateful for the Dalton's we have, wish he could have done more, but not if he'd have been pressed into the funny Bond portrayal.
Just stumbled across this forum just the other day and have to say I really enjoyed the commentary. I especially love that it seems every "Bond" has his supporters and the bashing I've seen on other forums seems absent here!
That said, I'll make the underdog statement and say that the Bond I wish had made more films is Roger Moore! I know what you're thinking but wait! I'm not suggesting that Moore should have made TLD, (although I would LOVE for Roger to have been able to make this move IF it were made 7 or 8 years earlier!) no what I'm suggesting I would have liked to have seen Roger take over the role with OHMSS and do DAF! In my alternate universe I'll even have Roger bow out after Octopussy (my favorite Bond movie!) Which would result in Timothy Dalton doing another movie as well! I know the idea of Roger doing OHMSS will certainly make many fans groans but I think Roger was capable of doing a serious nuanced performance but needed a director to push him out of his comfort zone and a good script! OHMSS certainly would have provided the script! If Roger had done OHMSS in the same vein as Lazenby I'd have to think that DAF would have followed the same serious format. Of course if Moore had done these films in a more serious tone who knows how this might have affected the rest of his tenure?
I would say both Dalton and Brosnan, without doubt.
As I stated before in other threads, it really was a shame Dalton got unwittingly caught up in the legal wranglings which he had no control over. He could have easily done 2 more Bonds, and then left the series.
Brosnan could have had one more film in him; a pity the Broccolis decided to fire him prematurely. X-(
Also a pity Lazenby walked; it would have been interesting to see how his career might have turned out had he carried on.
"Well, he certainly left with his tails between his legs."
Harry Palmer Somewhere in the past ...Posts: 325MI6 Agent
Dalton, certainly. A few years ago I wrote (just for fun and for my own consumption) a virtual history of the Bond franchise with 4 Dalton films, with treatments for a new AVTAK (in my mind this would have been Dalton's first) and The Property of a Lady (Dalton's never made 1991 film). It's a huge regret that he never got his 4.
james362001Lancaster, California USAPosts: 338MI6 Agent
Licence To Kill (1989) was so good. Timothy Dalton should have made another one, but legal issues prevented him from doing another movie. He waited too long and decided to give it up.
Licence To Kill (1989) was so good. Timothy Dalton should have made another one, but legal issues prevented him from doing another movie. He waited too long and decided to give it up.
Roger didn't make nearly enough, he could have done another three easy after AVTAK I would have loved to have seen him in GE.
I'd have handed the role to Dalton after FYEO. Ideally there also would have been no hiatus between LTK and GE which would have allowed him to squeeze in 1-2 more in that time frame.
My only wish for Brosnan is that he could have got a movie with a decent script after GE.
His problem in GE was that he played Bond as if he really was a "stiff ass Brit" rather than James Bond. Ironically, I thought his most Bond-like performance came in The Thomas Crown Affair.
Dalton with out a doubt, im not saying for one moment that Dalton
should have got the films Brosnan got, that would take that from him
and under the circumstances, Brossers did well, but i feel the world was robbed
of a truly great Bond
Thanks for the responses! I'm currently watching OHMSS. Can't help but think what Lazenby could've done with one or two more films.... I may need to change my original answer of Pierce!
Licence To Kill (1989) was so good. Timothy Dalton should have made another one, but legal issues prevented him from doing another movie. He waited too long and decided to give it up.
Roger didn't make nearly enough, he could have done another three easy after AVTAK I would have loved to have seen him in GE.
Yes, it would have been great seeing Roger in his wheelchair, rolling frantically after the villain, Geritol cocktail in one hand ("shaken, not stirred") and the other hand holding up his Depends. I'm so disappointed that we never got a chance to see that!
"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
Dalton with out a doubt, im not saying for one moment that Dalton
should have got the films Brosnan got, that would take that from him
and under the circumstances, Brossers did well, but i feel the world was robbed
of a truly great Bond
I can only agree, always shaken. Well said. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
In my ideal world, Lazenby and Moore were elliminated completely out of the Bond series.
Looking at just the ages of the actors, Connery could have done OHMSS, LALD, TMWTGG and even TSWLM. Dalton could have done Moonraker, FYEO, Octopussy, AVTAK. Brosnan Could have taken over TLD, LTK.
The movies would have looked different in most cases (all cases?) but especially the dark Bond ages of 71-85 would have had a quality improvement probably.
Licence To Kill (1989) was so good. Timothy Dalton should have made another one, but legal issues prevented him from doing another movie. He waited too long and decided to give it up.
Roger didn't make nearly enough, he could have done another three easy after AVTAK I would have loved to have seen him in GE.
Yes, it would have been great seeing Roger in his wheelchair, rolling frantically after the villain, Geritol cocktail in one hand ("shaken, not stirred") and the other hand holding up his Depends. I'm so disappointed that we never got a chance to see that!
)
While weare at it: Moore could have done CR also. Him portraying a reboot of the new Bond getting his license to kill.
I just watched TLD again last night and I found myself again thinking "Damn is Dalton good as Bond!" Connery is still the man as far as I'm concerned, and I have been very impressed so far with Craig's take on the role, but Dalton really is an absolutely terrific 007. I think we fans really lost something special when things didn't work out for Dalton to make more Bond films.
I would have loved to see Dalton take over the role in 1985 and that he would have done atleast the proposed 1991 movie "The Property Of A Lady". Hell, he could have continue on in 1993 too!
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
BIG TAMWrexham, North Wales, UK.Posts: 773MI6 Agent
Dalton & Lazenby without a doubt, though it would have been interesting to see how a 59 year old Brosnan might have tackled the burnt-out spy notion of SKYFALL.
Predictably for me Dalton & Lazenby. A great shame that neither of them did more. I too would have liked to have seen the young(ger) Dalton in the role, probably at age 35 or so. If Lazenby had done two or three, Dalton could have taken over from LALD onwards.
Predictably for me Dalton & Lazenby. A great shame that neither of them did more. I too would have liked to have seen the young(ger) Dalton in the role, probably at age 35 or so. If Lazenby had done two or three, Dalton could have taken over from LALD onwards.
Well we are all imagining that our faves would have been given good or excellent Bonds to do; I mean I love Connery but NSNA is rubbish and he is rubbish in it mostly. So had Dalton done one more, no guarantee it would have been any good, he had the bad luck to come in when the series was on the wane.
I'd like Brozzer to have done one more, FYEO-style thing but he had four shots at it, I mean if they couldn't knock it out the ball park then...
Comments
I don't find them lackluster, per se. I mean, Connery never gave a terrible Bond performance. He just doesn't seem to be enjoying himself as much. There's a marked difference between Thunderball and DAF, for example. Connery's living it up in Thunderball, and he's just not living it up as much in DAF.
However, I do agree I think OHMSS would have been quite good with Connery as Bond. I don't have a particular malice against Lazenby, but he's admittedly wooden in his line readings, and let's be honest, it's a highly technical and even emotional film for even an experienced actor, much less one who's never been in a feature film before.
Yes, I think it would have been an improvement, but still not a particularly good idea. Because I enjoyed Connery's Bond so much, I would hate for him to have worn out his welcome the way Roger Moore did. (Although I don't agree, many believe Connery actually did just that by returning in DAF!)
The only problem is that Dalton's portrayal, while brilliant, might have been forced into the tongue-in-cheek, campy stuff that Moore did. One shudders at the thought...
That's a distinct possibility! :007)
I think his more serious portrayal of Bond would have been much better welcomed by audiences if he'd Followed Connery's Bond. Connery had some tongue-in-cheek moments, and sometimes he let the audience know he was in on the joke, but Moore sometimes had a tendency to wink at the camera a little too much. Connery was in on the joke, but played it as though it was still possible, whereas Moore played a version of Bond that was larger-than-life. Bond is larger than life, but he still needs to be grounded in reality.
Dalton can do humor. I've seen it. His TLD one-liners aren't as in your face as Roger Moore's, but he delivers them well enough. It sometimes feels as though they were so desperate to get back to the realistic Bond that they overcompensated by making Dalton ultra-ruthless. I love the portrayal, don't get me wrong, I'd rather have too ruthless than not-ruthless enough, but completely going the polar opposite of Moore hurt Dalton, and even now, with Daniel Craig getting praise for playing Bond similarly to the way Dalton did, Dalton still gets slighted in numerous polls or blamed for "Killing the franchise." Both assessments are, IMO, totally wrong.
I agree as well with most of your points, Nick37. But, would you say that Moore's interpretation was a product of Moore? Or was it Moore doing the best he could with his scripts? One could argue that MGM was so leery of following Connery to closely that they wanted whoever followed him to be the campy Bond. That's why I say, while I would have loved to have seen Dalton get all 7 of Moore's films, I fear he would have been asked to do it in the campy, tongue-in-cheek style that Moore did. And that, IMO, would have been really bad.
I thoroughly enjoy Dalton's Bond, his balance with the character is perfect. Ruthless, tough, focused, resourceful, and cold. Willing to set aside personal feelings and reservations to get the job done. But not mindless, not a bulldozer, and able to think beyond his immediate target. Even showing his feelings, such as at the end of TLD "You didn't think I'd miss this performance, did you?". He really cared for Kara, and could show that without compromising the character.
I'm grateful for the Dalton's we have, wish he could have done more, but not if he'd have been pressed into the funny Bond portrayal.
That said, I'll make the underdog statement and say that the Bond I wish had made more films is Roger Moore! I know what you're thinking but wait! I'm not suggesting that Moore should have made TLD, (although I would LOVE for Roger to have been able to make this move IF it were made 7 or 8 years earlier!) no what I'm suggesting I would have liked to have seen Roger take over the role with OHMSS and do DAF! In my alternate universe I'll even have Roger bow out after Octopussy (my favorite Bond movie!) Which would result in Timothy Dalton doing another movie as well! I know the idea of Roger doing OHMSS will certainly make many fans groans but I think Roger was capable of doing a serious nuanced performance but needed a director to push him out of his comfort zone and a good script! OHMSS certainly would have provided the script! If Roger had done OHMSS in the same vein as Lazenby I'd have to think that DAF would have followed the same serious format. Of course if Moore had done these films in a more serious tone who knows how this might have affected the rest of his tenure?
As I stated before in other threads, it really was a shame Dalton got unwittingly caught up in the legal wranglings which he had no control over. He could have easily done 2 more Bonds, and then left the series.
Brosnan could have had one more film in him; a pity the Broccolis decided to fire him prematurely. X-(
Also a pity Lazenby walked; it would have been interesting to see how his career might have turned out had he carried on.
Roger didn't make nearly enough, he could have done another three easy after AVTAK I would have loved to have seen him in GE.
My only wish for Brosnan is that he could have got a movie with a decent script after GE.
His problem in GE was that he played Bond as if he really was a "stiff ass Brit" rather than James Bond. Ironically, I thought his most Bond-like performance came in The Thomas Crown Affair.
should have got the films Brosnan got, that would take that from him
and under the circumstances, Brossers did well, but i feel the world was robbed
of a truly great Bond
1. GoldenEye 2. Goldfinger 3. Skyfall 4. OHMSS 5. TWINE
Yes, it would have been great seeing Roger in his wheelchair, rolling frantically after the villain, Geritol cocktail in one hand ("shaken, not stirred") and the other hand holding up his Depends. I'm so disappointed that we never got a chance to see that!
I can only agree, always shaken. Well said. -{
In my ideal world, Lazenby and Moore were elliminated completely out of the Bond series.
Looking at just the ages of the actors, Connery could have done OHMSS, LALD, TMWTGG and even TSWLM. Dalton could have done Moonraker, FYEO, Octopussy, AVTAK. Brosnan Could have taken over TLD, LTK.
The movies would have looked different in most cases (all cases?) but especially the dark Bond ages of 71-85 would have had a quality improvement probably.
1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore
While weare at it: Moore could have done CR also. Him portraying a reboot of the new Bond getting his license to kill.
1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore
1. GoldenEye 2. Goldfinger 3. Skyfall 4. OHMSS 5. TWINE
I'd like Brozzer to have done one more, FYEO-style thing but he had four shots at it, I mean if they couldn't knock it out the ball park then...
Roger Moore 1927-2017