My definition of what Fleming Bond is has little to do with the actual lifting of material from any particular novel but the ethos and attitude of the novel Bond.
If it works for you. But the problem with that is how far you carry it while leaving out foundational aspects of the Bond's literary roots. It's like saying that Marvel's Hawkeye is Green-Arrowish, which would not satisfy someone who wants Green Arrow.
The thing is, in the cinematic Casino Royale, while all the plot points are inherently Fleming, the rest of the film (writing, director, cinematography, music) lack the atmosphere, character and spirit that is in the novel counterpart. Whereas Skyfall encapsulates it for the aforementioned reasons.
On certain levels, it can be argued that both movies evoke the themes and feel of the novels. CR updates the national interests of the UK (Cold War >>> Terror/Organized Crime) which intersects with the personal conflict that drives Bond's resolve to fight that threat, a pretty deft handling of that classic novel for the 21st century. SF on the other hand evoked the post-Tracy crisis through the metaphoric death that Bond experienced in YOLT.
As tastes change through the decades the relevance of the film series heavily depends on its ability to adapt. Admittedly I feel that much of the character itself has been watered down, but I accept it as necessary for the continuance of the series while retaining the essentials of what keeps the World of Bond interesting for new audiences.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
My definition of what Fleming Bond is has little to do with the actual lifting of material from any particular novel but the ethos and attitude of the novel Bond.
Skyfall captures Fleming because all the conventions of a Fleming novel are in full swing in the film. The bird with one wing down is a staple of a Fleming Bond girl, and it's presented excellently in the form of Severine. There's a sense of bizarre with the Komodo dragons and Silva, which we get from Bond's fight with the giant squid, and characters such as Horror, Oddjob and Blofeld (esp. in YOLT), we get a reflective, beaten James Bond, which becomes more apparent in the later novels. Less action sequences, emphasis on culture (eg. in the brief moments we're in Turkey, we get the markets and stalls and the action is staged around it) and the discourse into the state of Britain and its place in the world - which is highly reflective of Fleming's works - he'd almost always provided some social and political commentary and that's why SF works so well for me, and why SF feels like a Fleming Bond novel.
Absolutely wonderful explanation that I totally agree with! SF feels like one of the most Fleming Bond films in the series even if its not based on a novel.
Not wanting to sound too much like a broken record but ........ Long, long ago in a forum ......
I hated QOS and may have on the very odd occasion mentioned it. I was advised by much
More learned members here, to stop prancing about like a drama queen and go back and
Read the books again.
At first ( a little hurt from the angry barbs, I rearranged my stockings ) and did indeed reread
The wonderful Fleming novels odd to think it must have been the only time ever, I was wrong,
And the other guys were correct, ......
( I did suggest re-reading again if anyone wanted to join in, but no interest )
Craig may not look like the "Classic" Bond, but the attitude, sense of duty and inner resolve. Are all
There and all Bond ! -{
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,851MI6 Agent
Not wanting to sound too much like a broken record but ........ Long, long ago in a forum ......
I hated QOS and may have on the very odd occasion mentioned it. I was advised by much
More learned members here, to stop prancing about like a drama queen and go back and
Read the books again.
At first ( a little hurt from the angry barbs, I rearranged my stockings ) and did indeed reread
The wonderful Fleming novels odd to think it must have been the only time ever, I was wrong,
And the other guys were correct, ......
( I did suggest re-reading again if anyone wanted to join in, but no interest )
Craig may not look like the "Classic" Bond, but the attitude, sense of duty and inner resolve. Are all
There and all Bond ! -{
Yes, and that's why I like QoS so much, warts and all. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Not wanting to sound too much like a broken record but ........ Long, long ago in a forum ......
I hated QOS and may have on the very odd occasion mentioned it. I was advised by much
More learned members here, to stop prancing about like a drama queen and go back and
Read the books again.
At first ( a little hurt from the angry barbs, I rearranged my stockings ) and did indeed reread
The wonderful Fleming novels odd to think it must have been the only time ever, I was wrong,
And the other guys were correct, ......
( I did suggest re-reading again if anyone wanted to join in, but no interest )
Craig may not look like the "Classic" Bond, but the attitude, sense of duty and inner resolve. Are all
There and all Bond ! -{
His sense of duty in QOS is one of the reasons why I prefer QOS to CR, even if it could have been executed better (i.e. tell M you didn't kill the Special Branch agent and request an MI6 official to perform an autopsy).
Film: Tomorrow Never Dies | Girl: Teresa di Vicenzo | Villain: Max Zorin | Car: Aston Martin Volante | Novel: You Only Live Twice | Bond: Sir Sean Connery
My definition of what Fleming Bond is has little to do with the actual lifting of material from any particular novel but the ethos and attitude of the novel Bond.
Skyfall captures Fleming because all the conventions of a Fleming novel are in full swing in the film. The bird with one wing down is a staple of a Fleming Bond girl, and it's presented excellently in the form of Severine. There's a sense of bizarre with the Komodo dragons and Silva, which we get from Bond's fight with the giant squid, and characters such as Horror, Oddjob and Blofeld (esp. in YOLT), we get a reflective, beaten James Bond, which becomes more apparent in the later novels. Less action sequences, emphasis on culture (eg. in the brief moments we're in Turkey, we get the markets and stalls and the action is staged around it) and the discourse into the state of Britain and its place in the world - which is highly reflective of Fleming's works - he'd almost always provided some social and political commentary and that's why SF works so well for me, and why SF feels like a Fleming Bond novel.
I am sorry I just have to disagree. For starters, even Mendes has admitted that he was the author of the new Bond backstory (which is contrary to Fleming). There is nothing to suggest in any Bond novel that Bond had an unhappy childhood let alone would have such a strong negative reaction to word 'skyfall'.
There is no evidence that Severine has "a wing down". This is a stretch too. We learn that she is a prostitute and for the brief amount time she is on screen and then she is dead. Essentially she contributes nothing but a cliché. You know the "I cannot leave him.. no one ever leaves him" cliché that has been a part of the genre since forever. I think she was there to give Craig-bond the romantic cover Bond is supposed to have.
Silva is more of a cross between the Chris Nolan's Joker and Hannibal Lector. The containment cell he was placed in looks like the same cell Dr Evil was placed in in Goldmember. The movie did not really address Britain's role in the world. It really did not do anything.
I do not know anything about Marvel, I stopped reading comics sometime ago.
"And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond - The Property of a Lady
1. I think Helen Mirren would have done a better job than Judi Dench as M.
2. GoldenEye, DAD, CR, Qos, and Skyfall don't seem like Bond movies.
3. The Bond movie franchise has probably two movies left. The last Bond movie will be "Nobody Lives Forever" it will premiere November 8, 2024.
"And if I told you that I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" James Bond - The Property of a Lady
3. The Bond movie franchise has probably two movies left. The last Bond movie will be "Nobody Lives Forever" it will premiere November 8, 2024.
I think that all depends on what the audience make-up has been since Skyfall and into the next films. If it's skewed towards an older generation then yeah, maybe it's finished.
IMO, the franchise needs to lower the budgets and move away from the "everything affects me" plots full of overbearing father figures, and mothers and quasi-real-life comic-book styles. As mentioned in your above post as being exemplified by the brilliant, but now cliched Dark Knight.
In Mendes' films Bond has been portrayed as a confused moody dandy, in a similar way to how Batman was in the final two Nolan films. Correct me if I am wrong, but this doesn't seem like Fleming.
I wonder if the modern audience would enjoy something that's just a solid adventure or espionage like a FRWL, FYEO, TLD or OP or even TND?? BACK TO BASICS!
My definition of what Fleming Bond is has little to do with the actual lifting of material from any particular novel but the ethos and attitude of the novel Bond.
If it works for you. But the problem with that is how far you carry it while leaving out foundational aspects of the Bond's literary roots. It's like saying that Marvel's Hawkeye is Green-Arrowish, which would not satisfy someone who wants Green Arrow.
The thing is, in the cinematic Casino Royale, while all the plot points are inherently Fleming, the rest of the film (writing, director, cinematography, music) lack the atmosphere, character and spirit that is in the novel counterpart. Whereas Skyfall encapsulates it for the aforementioned reasons.
Fully agreed on Skyfall. I think for the most part the portrayal of Bond as a character in CR is pretty Fleming. But SF is the MOST Fleming-esque film in the series, in terms of atmosphere, character, and so on.
If it works for you. But the problem with that is how far you carry it while leaving out foundational aspects of the Bond's literary roots. It's like saying that Marvel's Hawkeye is Green-Arrowish, which would not satisfy someone who wants Green Arrow.
The thing is, in the cinematic Casino Royale, while all the plot points are inherently Fleming, the rest of the film (writing, director, cinematography, music) lack the atmosphere, character and spirit that is in the novel counterpart. Whereas Skyfall encapsulates it for the aforementioned reasons.
Fully agreed on Skyfall. I think for the most part the portrayal of Bond as a character in CR is pretty Fleming. But SF is the MOST Fleming-esque film in the series, in terms of atmosphere, character, and so on.
No, the portrayal of Bond in CR isn't "pretty Fleming". The portrayal of Bond in CR is that of a thug, with no respect and an abundance of petulance.
And heartbroken_mr_drax: I'd certainly enjoy a standalone, back to basics mission akin to OP, FRWL, TLD or TND. -{
Film: Tomorrow Never Dies | Girl: Teresa di Vicenzo | Villain: Max Zorin | Car: Aston Martin Volante | Novel: You Only Live Twice | Bond: Sir Sean Connery
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,851MI6 Agent
The thing is, in the cinematic Casino Royale, while all the plot points are inherently Fleming, the rest of the film (writing, director, cinematography, music) lack the atmosphere, character and spirit that is in the novel counterpart. Whereas Skyfall encapsulates it for the aforementioned reasons.
Fully agreed on Skyfall. I think for the most part the portrayal of Bond as a character in CR is pretty Fleming. But SF is the MOST Fleming-esque film in the series, in terms of atmosphere, character, and so on.
No, the portrayal of Bond in CR isn't "pretty Fleming". The portrayal of Bond in CR is that of a thug, with no respect and an abundance of petulance.
And heartbroken_mr_drax: I'd certainly enjoy a standalone, back to basics mission akin to OP, FRWL, TLD or TND. -{
Though even TND had a personal angle with Paris Carver and Bond.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Fully agreed on Skyfall. I think for the most part the portrayal of Bond as a character in CR is pretty Fleming. But SF is the MOST Fleming-esque film in the series, in terms of atmosphere, character, and so on.
No, the portrayal of Bond in CR isn't "pretty Fleming". The portrayal of Bond in CR is that of a thug, with no respect and an abundance of petulance.
And heartbroken_mr_drax: I'd certainly enjoy a standalone, back to basics mission akin to OP, FRWL, TLD or TND. -{
Though even TND had a personal angle with Paris Carver and Bond.
Yes and no. Bond never loved Paris - at least not in the way he did Tracy or Vesper. Hence why he left her.
Film: Tomorrow Never Dies | Girl: Teresa di Vicenzo | Villain: Max Zorin | Car: Aston Martin Volante | Novel: You Only Live Twice | Bond: Sir Sean Connery
I wonder, Is there anyone who doesn't like Connery's Bond ?
I know we discuss to death the other actors as to who's good
etc, but I can't remember a negative view on Sir Sean, then
Maybe I'm wrong.
Beyond Goldfinger and Diamonds Are Forever, Sean is pretty low on my list of favorite Bond actors. To be fair though, the reason is I don't have regular access to his other films. Goldfinger and Diamonds I have on DVD, but the others I only have on VHS and that side of my DVD/VCR combo broke on me a few months ago. And as such, I just automatically put the ones I have on VHS in a lower rating until I can get them on DVD. With my internet in and out like it is, I can't even attempt to try watching them online either. Yes, I do include OHMSS with this too. On DVD I have those two, A View to a Kill - Skyfall, everything else is VHS.
But the other reason is, it is certainly a different time for movies for Connery versus now. Where the performance was more important than the action. I came up in the Brosnan era where that was reversed. By no means though do I hate Connery as Bond.
1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
Given the responses to my recent post about Clint Eastwood as Bond in the 70s, my opinion that Eastwood would have been a good Bond is clearly both unpopular and obtuse
Though even TND had a personal angle with Paris Carver and Bond.
Yes and no. Bond never loved Paris - at least not in the way he did Tracy or Vesper. Hence why he left her.
True. And even though it still is somewhat personal, it doesn't define the film like in Craig's films.
The Paris element of TND is so superficial that it doesn't honestly have much impact on the film. Looking at my ranking below of TND, you could probably say I'm saying this holistically
I would actually swap DN back in for TLD, with all apologies But all are fine Bonds
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I would actually swap DN back in for TLD, with all apologies But all are fine Bonds
The only reason I have for choosing TLD over FRWL is that the last part of FRWL is a little slow, whereas the last part of TLD is very lively. But yeah, they're all good!
I actually like This Never Happened To The Other Fella and Bobsled Chase as music cues. I don't get why people say it sounds like something from an old fashioned film.
Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"
I hate the music for the pbobsled chase. The soundtrack for OHMSS is a bit weird, it has some of the best in all of the films (main theme and the escape from Piz Gloria) but then has some stuff that sounds a lot older and really out of place in a Bond film.
I also don't like having We Have all the Time in the World being in OHMSS; it just doesn't fit for a series of lively fun films. Honestly I just think OHMSS is a bit weird for a Bond film; it's simply nothing like any other Bond film. Even the MI6 regulars just seem a bit different too.
That's probably why it's appreciated by most fans and ignored/not-watched generally by the public. Other than the film being exceptionally well made and written - I think the film and Lazenby also get a bit of the benefit of the doubt as it is a standalone.
A few of the odd-one-out Bond films like LALD, AVTAK, LTK have their groups of fans which adore their differences and amplify their appreciation for them.
Comments
On certain levels, it can be argued that both movies evoke the themes and feel of the novels. CR updates the national interests of the UK (Cold War >>> Terror/Organized Crime) which intersects with the personal conflict that drives Bond's resolve to fight that threat, a pretty deft handling of that classic novel for the 21st century. SF on the other hand evoked the post-Tracy crisis through the metaphoric death that Bond experienced in YOLT.
As tastes change through the decades the relevance of the film series heavily depends on its ability to adapt. Admittedly I feel that much of the character itself has been watered down, but I accept it as necessary for the continuance of the series while retaining the essentials of what keeps the World of Bond interesting for new audiences.
I hated QOS and may have on the very odd occasion mentioned it.
More learned members here, to stop prancing about like a drama queen and go back and
Read the books again.
At first ( a little hurt from the angry barbs, I rearranged my stockings ) and did indeed reread
The wonderful Fleming novels odd to think it must have been the only time ever, I was wrong,
And the other guys were correct, ......
( I did suggest re-reading again if anyone wanted to join in, but no interest )
Craig may not look like the "Classic" Bond, but the attitude, sense of duty and inner resolve. Are all
There and all Bond ! -{
Yes, and that's why I like QoS so much, warts and all.
His sense of duty in QOS is one of the reasons why I prefer QOS to CR, even if it could have been executed better (i.e. tell M you didn't kill the Special Branch agent and request an MI6 official to perform an autopsy).
I am sorry I just have to disagree. For starters, even Mendes has admitted that he was the author of the new Bond backstory (which is contrary to Fleming). There is nothing to suggest in any Bond novel that Bond had an unhappy childhood let alone would have such a strong negative reaction to word 'skyfall'.
There is no evidence that Severine has "a wing down". This is a stretch too. We learn that she is a prostitute and for the brief amount time she is on screen and then she is dead. Essentially she contributes nothing but a cliché. You know the "I cannot leave him.. no one ever leaves him" cliché that has been a part of the genre since forever. I think she was there to give Craig-bond the romantic cover Bond is supposed to have.
Silva is more of a cross between the Chris Nolan's Joker and Hannibal Lector. The containment cell he was placed in looks like the same cell Dr Evil was placed in in Goldmember. The movie did not really address Britain's role in the world. It really did not do anything.
I do not know anything about Marvel, I stopped reading comics sometime ago.
1. I think Helen Mirren would have done a better job than Judi Dench as M.
2. GoldenEye, DAD, CR, Qos, and Skyfall don't seem like Bond movies.
3. The Bond movie franchise has probably two movies left. The last Bond movie will be "Nobody Lives Forever" it will premiere November 8, 2024.
I think that all depends on what the audience make-up has been since Skyfall and into the next films. If it's skewed towards an older generation then yeah, maybe it's finished.
IMO, the franchise needs to lower the budgets and move away from the "everything affects me" plots full of overbearing father figures, and mothers and quasi-real-life comic-book styles. As mentioned in your above post as being exemplified by the brilliant, but now cliched Dark Knight.
In Mendes' films Bond has been portrayed as a confused moody dandy, in a similar way to how Batman was in the final two Nolan films. Correct me if I am wrong, but this doesn't seem like Fleming.
I wonder if the modern audience would enjoy something that's just a solid adventure or espionage like a FRWL, FYEO, TLD or OP or even TND?? BACK TO BASICS!
"Better make that two."
Fully agreed on Skyfall. I think for the most part the portrayal of Bond as a character in CR is pretty Fleming. But SF is the MOST Fleming-esque film in the series, in terms of atmosphere, character, and so on.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wish-i-was-at-disneyland/id1202780413?mt=2
No, the portrayal of Bond in CR isn't "pretty Fleming". The portrayal of Bond in CR is that of a thug, with no respect and an abundance of petulance.
And heartbroken_mr_drax: I'd certainly enjoy a standalone, back to basics mission akin to OP, FRWL, TLD or TND. -{
Though even TND had a personal angle with Paris Carver and Bond.
Yes and no. Bond never loved Paris - at least not in the way he did Tracy or Vesper. Hence why he left her.
True. And even though it still is somewhat personal, it doesn't define the film like in Craig's films.
Beyond Goldfinger and Diamonds Are Forever, Sean is pretty low on my list of favorite Bond actors. To be fair though, the reason is I don't have regular access to his other films. Goldfinger and Diamonds I have on DVD, but the others I only have on VHS and that side of my DVD/VCR combo broke on me a few months ago. And as such, I just automatically put the ones I have on VHS in a lower rating until I can get them on DVD. With my internet in and out like it is, I can't even attempt to try watching them online either. Yes, I do include OHMSS with this too. On DVD I have those two, A View to a Kill - Skyfall, everything else is VHS.
But the other reason is, it is certainly a different time for movies for Connery versus now. Where the performance was more important than the action. I came up in the Brosnan era where that was reversed. By no means though do I hate Connery as Bond.
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wish-i-was-at-disneyland/id1202780413?mt=2
The Paris element of TND is so superficial that it doesn't honestly have much impact on the film. Looking at my ranking below of TND, you could probably say I'm saying this holistically
"Better make that two."
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I won't argue with you on OHMSS and TLD.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
FRWL
I would actually swap DN back in for TLD, with all apologies
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
They may all be in my top 5 along with Casino Royale and The Spy Who Loved Me. LTK I also like as much as TLD.
" I don't listen to hip hop!"
(quoting Brosnan)
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
Loving the love for TLD. It is absolutely excellent!
"Better make that two."
I also don't like having We Have all the Time in the World being in OHMSS; it just doesn't fit for a series of lively fun films. Honestly I just think OHMSS is a bit weird for a Bond film; it's simply nothing like any other Bond film. Even the MI6 regulars just seem a bit different too.
That's probably why it's appreciated by most fans and ignored/not-watched generally by the public. Other than the film being exceptionally well made and written - I think the film and Lazenby also get a bit of the benefit of the doubt as it is a standalone.
A few of the odd-one-out Bond films like LALD, AVTAK, LTK have their groups of fans which adore their differences and amplify their appreciation for them.
"Better make that two."